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oCoYoRoAoKo
20-09-2009, 17:53
I am somewhat torn between 2 daemon lists to use for the GT so i was wondering if i could hear your views on the matter:

List 1:

Keeper of Secrets 585
Siren Song, Allure, Lvl 3

The Masque 90

Bluescribes 81

Herald of Tzentch 235
Wings, BSB, Standard of Despair

10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120


5 Seekers 120
5 Seekers 120
5 Seekers 120

5 Flamers 175
2 Fiends 110

List 2:

Keeper of Secrets 500
Siren Song, Allure

The Masque 90

Herald of Tzentch 235
Wings, BSB, Standard of Despair

10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120

5 Flesh Hounds 175
5 Seekers 120
5 Seekers 120
5 Seekers 120

4 Flamers 140
4 Flamers 140

Im inclined tobelieve that overall list 2 is better but the lack of magic defense is bothering me. Any comments?

Cy.

Jind_Singh
20-09-2009, 18:33
List 2: I assume that your graded for comp scores hence the reason why you have not taken any of the cool stuff? Correct?

Keeper of Secrets 500
Siren Song, Allure
people love the siren song, they really do! Personally I like the 100pt gift that regains a wound for each one I cause - has added a new lease of life to my keeper and more importantly keeps him alive! He's so damn fast that pretty much I use him as a flanking unit that wades into combat and then he sits there for the whole game, munching through units.

The Masque 90 nasty lady but not sure if she works with your current list - she doesnt really add too much to your overall gameplay and you might be better with a normal herald of slaanesh that at least makes you ASF, etc, etc

Herald of Tzentch 235
Wings, BSB, Standard of Despair
see heres the problem, you got the icon and the dude flys so with the masque/keeper you can do some early leadership bombs with -3 to -6 on the enemy leadership. BUT this is a very fragile hero that cant even hide in any units - he cant join any of your core units, he could go hide in the flamers but as soon as they have less than 5 models he can be picked out, if you want this fellow I suggest you swap 10 daemonettes for 10 horrors. As for his build you havent even taken master of sorcery or power vortex!!

10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120
all the above are no good - you dont have supporting heralds for them to make them asf, they lack any command so your static combat res suffers, and they lack the numbers to make any difference. If you want to field MSU then go for 10 horrors (magic defence/magic missles), 10 bloodletters (to take on high armour save foes), and 10 deamonettes (to provide a fast flanking unit
5 Flesh Hounds 175
5 Seekers 120
5 Seekers 120
5 Seekers 120
fleshounds are fleshounds, great. But if you dont take the siren standard you lose (IMO) what makes seekers so powerful - they have a 20" charge that YOU CANT flee from! Do you know how much I love this? Against annoying fliers/fast cav - anything really - you know that if you declare a charge the buggers cant flee. You can pin down units and plan your overuns - add the keeper to this with the charge and wow!
4 Flamers 140
4 Flamers 140
standard nasty flamers, no problems

my main concerns is that the list lacks focus. You have some magic but against most lists you wont be able to cast jack. My orcs & goblins bring 8 dispell die and 2 scrolls to the game - how is your lvl 3 & lvl 2 going to cast anything?
You have fast moving units but lack solid punching units to back up all this lovely speed you are creating - 3 units of seekers is great but they lack the meat to make it count. consider dropping a unit so at least you can take heralds to make them ASF and add combat effectivness to them. Add a siren std to really ensure your charges go as needed. And most important I am not a fan of minimum sized core units unless it be horrors as they are just not effective! And another suggestion - you need to free up 72 pts to grab 6 furies. Indeed your list needs to come with 2 units of them to really give a list like this any chance of surviving.
On the other hand if you are looking for good comp scores/and have a really nice paint job then you are ok - but I always feel that it doesnt matter what you take people never give a fair comp score to deamons - ever!!

Papawolf
20-09-2009, 18:38
in the first army, drop a unit of seekers, and drop the fiends,
add in some more flamers and any remaining points, go into making both units of seekers 6 strong, or adding some more deamonettes to the core units

oCoYoRoAoKo
20-09-2009, 19:13
Hello all, thanks for your coments. A few questions:


List 2: I assume that your graded for comp scores hence the reason why you have not taken any of the cool stuff? Correct?

Not really, the GT isnt comp scored, but ive been trying to improve upon the list i brought to Devourer (which was list 1). I didnt do too badly there with 2 huge wins (WoC and DoC) and one loss (against VC). The reason i havent taken any of the other stuff is because its a. really expensive, and b. i love slaaneshii troops. alot.

Keeper of Secrets 500
Siren Song, Allure
people love the siren song, they really do! Personally I like the 100pt gift that regains a wound for each one I cause - has added a new lease of life to my keeper and more importantly keeps him alive! He's so damn fast that pretty much I use him as a flanking unit that wades into combat and then he sits there for the whole game, munching through units.

hmm, i use my keeper in the same way. I have tried the spirit swallower before but i find taking down massive creatures, guys on dragons, etc a real pain without the song/allure (get them to charge you from accross the field, hammer their ld, beatdown on the mount, break and rundown). How do you deal with other Greater daemons/thirsters/DE dragon lords in your list?

Herald of Tzentch 235
Wings, BSB, Standard of Despair
see heres the problem, you got the icon and the dude flys so with the masque/keeper you can do some early leadership bombs with -3 to -6 on the enemy leadership. BUT this is a very fragile hero that cant even hide in any units - he cant join any of your core units, he could go hide in the flamers but as soon as they have less than 5 models he can be picked out, if you want this fellow I suggest you swap 10 daemonettes for 10 horrors. As for his build you havent even taken master of sorcery or power vortex!!

lol, i guess we can agree to disagree here. I usually find that the herald is the last to die. Dispite his weedy statline, im taking him almost soleley for a 20" move banner, and to keep the keeper rolling if he starts loosing combat. His huge movement, small base size, and the inability to be marchblocked is usually enough to keep him safe and if things do go wrong he just flies off and hides behind a rock for the rest of the game :P Also, it does work wonders with the masque, who is usually safe in combat with warmachine crew or other smaller units.

Interesting to hear lots of support for furies though, ill keep that in mind when revising the list.

Jind_Singh
21-09-2009, 03:11
"Interesting to hear lots of support for furies though, ill keep that in mind when revising the list."

That it because they are simply put.....amazing! I was the 1st deamon player in the store to take them out - as I owned 12 really old fury models from the 3rd edition - and everyone scoffed me.
However, after just 1 game you saw everyone take them out! The fact is they are sooooo versatile! Heres a quick reason why;

1) Deployment - place the models 1" apart in a straight line, and the bases are almost 1" wide. With 2 units you can effectivly cover off 15-16" Behind this skirmish line I then place my core units - now the enemy cant target me with spells/missle fire - he has to pick on the furies.
then 1st turn they all advance forwards.
2) I can now use them to either bait units, march block units, or even better fly in between 2 enemy units were they not only march block the enemy lines but the bloody enemy units shield my own furies from their own spells/firepower! Its pricless!
3) Unit str 5 - place a unit of 5 furies behind the enemy lines, win combat from the front and watch the enemy die as they run into my unit str 5 unit! instant death! This works wonders when I dont want to pursue - as sometimes pursuing puts me in worse situations
4) Fly off and hunt/threaten warmachines. When you fly towards war machines you know that they will target your weak furies for 1 turn - this means 1st turn your keeper is running forwards, and then in combat by 2nd turn - at this point we dont care about the warmachines anymore!

All this for a mere 72 pts for 6 furies! What can be wrong with that?????

OH I forget - support charges! Sometimes you got a unit (like bloodletters) which quite often an enemy must flee from - however with a 20" charge of furies you know they are dead! In your case combine the effects of the Masque, the BSB, and you know that most enemy will have to flee from the fear causing/terror casuing units you have.

As for how do I deal with the big monstors - well the keeper will munch the mount apart, my khorne heralds destroy the buggers too. If anything I found my keeper to be more effective at times than the thirster - who I know has a lot going for him, but the fact that my keeper can charge soft targets just to regain some wounds back make him invaluable.
Ah crap - time to get the groceries

oCoYoRoAoKo
21-09-2009, 09:28
OK so ive tweaked the list and heres what i have (given its previous performance, it is based on my old list 1). After much deliberation i have decided that 10 furies for 5 seekers is more then worth it as they have that magic fly M20, and give me much more vs warmachines. You will notice that my Lords/Heroes have not changed much. I have decided to keep with my tried and tested layout.

Keeper of Secrets 590
Siren Song, Allure, Lvl 3, Torment Blade

The Masque 90

Bluescribes 81

Herald of Tzentch 235
Wings, BSB, Standard of Despair

10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120

5 Furies 60
5 Furies 60

5 Seekers 120
5 Seekers 120

4 Flamers 140
4 Flamers 140

thoughts/comments?

Cy.

slayerofmen
21-09-2009, 09:50
my only issue with this list is the 10 man unit of deamonettes are too small as a frontal assault unit which is where 2/3 of them will end up, they do make good flanking units at that size but something needs to hold the front down

oCoYoRoAoKo
21-09-2009, 10:37
on reflection, i can also drop the magic levels on the keeper and the scribes to get the other unit of seekers back, turn the wings on my herald into a disc, and finally give him 2 dispel gifts. Taking up on your point slayer, this will work well with the 3 units of daemonettes (as neither can take units by them selves) by setting up pots of front-flank charges. it will also give me 2 scrolls for dispelling those harder, must stop spells (though my general spell stopping will pretty much go through the floor with 4 DD). thoughts?

Cy.

Atrahasis
21-09-2009, 12:10
You can't have two Spellbreakers on one Herald.

oCoYoRoAoKo
21-09-2009, 12:32
Ah you are correct, i was thinking along the lines of classical dispel scrolls. As this is the case i would have 25 points left which is enough to expand the furies to 6 each. Alternatively i could have the list look something like this:

Keeper of Secrets 505
Siren Song, Allure, Torment Blade

The Masque 90

Herald of Tzentch 260
Wings, BSB, Standard of Despair, Spellbreaker

10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120
10 Daemonettes 120
6 Furies 72
6 Furies 72

5 Seekers 120
5 Seekers 120
5 Seekers 120

4 Flamers 140
4 Flamers 140

thoughts/comments?

Cy.

Tzeentch Lord X7
24-09-2009, 02:29
drop the daemonnettes and take 3 units of 10 horrors

oCoYoRoAoKo
25-09-2009, 10:41
I would love to add horrors to the list but im not sure if i am going to be able to get the 30 of them in time for the tourney (12GBP for 5 = ouch). Maybe i can scour ebay or something :P

Anyway, assuming i did manage to get them, how is it looking on the last version?

Cy.

jigplums
25-09-2009, 12:48
much better[with the horrors] although i think 3 units of seekers is overkill. also now you have no magic levels on your keeper whats the banner of dispair doing? i kind of liked your blue scribes in this list

oCoYoRoAoKo
25-09-2009, 16:05
hey jigplums, the reason the bluescribes was in the list to begin with was for as a battery for the keepers magic (well, that and the free bound spell which more often then not i have had really good luck with). The keeper is still a level 1 mage so he will be able to stupid-ray units. The banner of despair also adds that important -2ld modifier for terrorbomb and the keepers allure+torment blade. Though i will miss casting slicing shards at those gobbo units with ld1 :(

Incedentally, that combo is more or less my only bloodthirster/massive-monster defense (siren it into combat, hammer its ld, win by a couple of wounds due to its inability to fight back and then watch that thirster crumble :D )

BTW, anyone have any ideas for converted horrors? ive seen both ghouls and dryads used before.

Cy.

highelfmage
25-09-2009, 17:06
dryads work best as horrors. ghouls are use for nurgle

Atrahasis
25-09-2009, 18:34
I have to disagree. Ghouls (without heads) work really well as horrors:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_WQll_fjp5Bw/SqYF07lM9cI/AAAAAAAAAJE/16UKg5RmKpo/s800/dscf0129.jpg

Tzeentch Lord X7
25-09-2009, 20:32
i sculpted my horrors its not that hard really