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View Full Version : Varghulf or Cairn Wraiths.. Which is worth the points?



keldon33
20-09-2009, 19:00
I was just trying to figure out whether or now I should take a Varghulf for 175 points or 3x Cairn Wraiths for only 150 points. I was planning on using the unit(s) as a flanker/defending the edges of my crypt ghoul blocks, as well as attempt to go after any targets of opportunity such as cannons/wizards/etc. So my question is what do you guys think is more worthwhile for the points?


Thanks

Gimp
20-09-2009, 19:11
As someone who plays against VC often I fear the Wraiths far more than the Varghulf.

However if you want to field Wraiths 3 is not enough you really need between 4 and 5 to do the job right.

Lewis
20-09-2009, 19:34
I'd agree with the above. Plus the Varg is a vampire and allows you greater manouverability and the opportunity to spread your forces out and still march.

puppetmaster24
20-09-2009, 19:42
i would take the three cairn wraiths but you have to be careful with them and only go after warmachine crews and low leadership units such as peasants.

snottlebocket
20-09-2009, 20:19
Did people stop using the 7+ wraith super unit along with the vampire hat that gives them ws7? It seemed rather popular for a while.

sulla
20-09-2009, 22:22
Wraiths are generally harder for opponents to deal with, but the varghulf is such a cool model you should try to use it at least occasionally.

Gimp
20-09-2009, 22:42
Have you thought of taking both after all you do have 2 rare slots?

keldon33
20-09-2009, 23:32
Well the army list ive planned out wont allow for both atm. Ive posted my list in the army list section of this forums and here is a link to it...


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221180

take a look, let me know what you think. Im a big fan of the undead characters, but not so much with some of the special units/core units. I dont really want to see a bunch of small units such as dire wolves and fell bats and all that. Id much rather centre the army around a nice looking heavy hitting block unit like the Bloodknights and buff up the characters to make them extra tough while limiting myself only to the crypt ghouls (and maybe using some spells to summon some zombies up).

kardar233
21-09-2009, 07:37
I like the Varghulf because it seems to me that it can do more, but in every game bar one I've played with it it gets brutally murdered without doing anything.

Case in point: Gets perfect flank charge against Dark Elven Spearmen. Does 0 wounds. 3 spearmen strike back, dealing 2 wounds, winning combat res and it dies from crumbling.

Another time it died to one Glade Guard champion.

The one time it was worth it was in a 1k point game where it flank-charged an enemy's large unit of Corsairs w/ Assassin and Master and singlehandedly broke it and ran it down.

The Red Scourge
21-09-2009, 08:02
Go with whatever looks the best :)

Seriously, they're both great units - though the varghulf looks awful :p

Appoloclypse
21-09-2009, 08:25
biggest problem you have with either of these units is that they cannot stand up to a fully ranked unit and hope to do much damage/survive for long, nor will they remove rank bonouses, the varghulf is only unit strength 4 while the cairn wraiths are 3. but i do have to recomend the varghulf, because it flys and causes terror. though i have yet to use my vc in a game over 1000 points, my varghulf has come in very handy blocking march moves, forcing units to flee, rather funny was the last game where my friends nightgoblin shaman fled due to terror only to have a fanatic kill him when the unit moved within 8 inches of my zombies, the varghulf won that game for me by being between a large orc unit, plus orc big boss, when it was forced to flee from one of my skeleton units.

SMann233
21-09-2009, 10:34
Vargulf doesn't fly, it just has M of 9.

If you're only going with 3 Carin Wraiths, I would go with the Vargulf. Regeneration is a rough thing for an opponent to get through - especially since it works against wounds taken because of combat resolution. The Vargulf is fast, strong, and mean as hell with Hatred backing him up.

That said, these two units serve different purposes. Vargulf excels at doing what you might expect: chasing down warmachine crews, bowmen lines, stray characters, chariots, wizards and the units they're hiding in, etc. It is not capable of taking on a serious unit by itself, such as Grail Knights, mounted elven characters on dragons, etc.

Carin Wraiths are a killing unit. They are your hammer. They rarely fit in the same list as Blood Knights, due to points costs, and there's a reason for that. You take a minimum of 5 of them and send them running into the biggest, meanest thing the opponent's got, so long as said opponent isn't using magic weapons. Sword Masters of Hoeth? Dead. Dragon? Dead. Slap a Helm of Commandment buff on them to make them even more mean. This is not a unit you go light on the numbers on - 3 Carin Wraiths do nothing for you. 5-7 is going to pound the opponent into dust.

As an aside, the Tomb Banshee is a questionable upgrade. She's damaging when it works, and if we had Slaaneshi leadership abilities, she'd be amazing. But we don't, and while you might get some wounds out of her, the problem you're going to run into is that she provides a challenge outlet for character models (especially characters mounted on a monster or chariot). In my experience, it's best to simply deny them the option.

keldon33
21-09-2009, 14:53
Interesting arguments guys.... I did have a couple questions from them though.


1. How come people dont seem to like having 3 cairn wraiths only? I feel that it would come down to whether or not the opponent has the magic to deal with them or not. If they do, then 5 isnt going to make a big difference over 3 as two more models wont last very much longer if the magic is flowing. If they dont then 3 is going to cause as much of a headache as 5 i would think? Anyways maybe someone can give me some RL examples of the reason for thinking the opposite on this one.


2. Just a general question about vamps. I see alot of people saying the Varghulf gets to regen combat res wounds. I must have missed this in the Armybook, but if that is true then does any unit of undead that has a regen ability get to use that as well when working out combat res?

Anaxagoras
21-09-2009, 15:29
Interesting arguments guys.... I did have a couple questions from them though.


1. How come people dont seem to like having 3 cairn wraiths only? I feel that it would come down to whether or not the opponent has the magic to deal with them or not. If they do, then 5 isnt going to make a big difference over 3 as two more models wont last very much longer if the magic is flowing. If they dont then 3 is going to cause as much of a headache as 5 i would think? Anyways maybe someone can give me some RL examples of the reason for thinking the opposite on this one.


2. Just a general question about vamps. I see alot of people saying the Varghulf gets to regen combat res wounds. I must have missed this in the Armybook, but if that is true then does any unit of undead that has a regen ability get to use that as well when working out combat res?

You really need the killing power of 5. Even without Helm, 5 wraiths means 15 attacks and 7-8 hits, probably 5-6 kills against most toughness 4 infantry...enough to negate combat res against most things. Add in Helm and those 15 attacks will most likely hit 10 times for 7-8 kills, probably sending a unit packing.

but just 3? 9 attacks will usually see 4-5 hits and 3 dead...then you take a wound or two to combat res and sit around feeling embarrassed.

Take 5 or take Varghulf.

vinny t
21-09-2009, 15:33
I'd go with 3 and a BAnshee. The Banshees can kill of most small units, the Wraiths can kill warmachines, and togetner they can have some nice support charges.

fubukii
21-09-2009, 19:16
7-9 wraiths including a bansee is probably one of the best units if not the best unit in the game. With helm of command you got a unit running around with ws7 etheral and tons of str 5 attacks. Even vs daemons this unit casues alot of trouble.

SMann233
21-09-2009, 20:33
Interesting arguments guys.... I did have a couple questions from them though.


1. How come people dont seem to like having 3 cairn wraiths only? I feel that it would come down to whether or not the opponent has the magic to deal with them or not. If they do, then 5 isnt going to make a big difference over 3 as two more models wont last very much longer if the magic is flowing. If they dont then 3 is going to cause as much of a headache as 5 i would think? Anyways maybe someone can give me some RL examples of the reason for thinking the opposite on this one.


2. Just a general question about vamps. I see alot of people saying the Varghulf gets to regen combat res wounds. I must have missed this in the Armybook, but if that is true then does any unit of undead that has a regen ability get to use that as well when working out combat res?

1. The primary reason for a minimum of 5 wraiths is to face off static combat resolution bonuses. 3 ranks + banner is the most common. The Wraiths are impressive for their number of attacks, the Great Weapon strength, and the multiple wounds each model has. Their WS, on the other hand, is lacking - 3 models simply doesn't produce the punch necessary to actually beat a standard SCR, let alone a unit with excellent SCR. (I've seen Skaven units with a SCR of 8.) If they lose to SCR, then the enemy doesn't need magic to hurt them - they can just be whittled away by attrition. If you're going to spend the points on Wraiths, spend enough to make it worthwhile. :)

2. Yes, any undead unit in the VC list can take ward or regeneration saves against the combat resolution wounds. Unlike the Tomb Kings, the VC codex specifies that wounds caused by combat resolution losses only ignore armor saves. This is one of the reasons the Drakenhof Banner is so expensive.

PeG
21-09-2009, 21:15
wraiths seem to be more hit/miss especially in smaller games. Against armies with a lack of magical attacks they are great and against others such as forest spirits, daemons, Chaos knights with ensorcelled weapons etc they die really fast. Varghulf is less dependent on the opponent and usually delivers about the same punch against everyone.

Axis
22-09-2009, 01:41
I've never seen a Varghulf do much at all. It is very easy to pin-cushion it. T5 and regen is decent defence but nothing super good. It doesn't have the unit strength to deal with ranked up infantry, cant negate flanks. It's only strength 5 so it will have trouble against 1+ armour. It is only M8 (not 9 as someone said). It's only saving grace is 5 WS5 attacks with hatred.

The wraiths are more mobile since they are skirmishers and, as such, have a better charge arc. Imo being ethereal offers more protection than regen. Though you do get a bit boned against daemons etc.

Appoloclypse
22-09-2009, 06:45
Vargulf doesn't fly, it just has M of 9.

i stand corected somewhere i thought i read that it had the fly special rule, though it is only M8. I no longer sugest the varghulf because with out the ability to fly it is worthless as it cannot compair to anything else in the rare section.

funkaton
27-10-2009, 20:58
For the points the Varghulf is the better deal. The ws5 str5 atk5 is enough to with combat against most core units, but like all the rare units in the VC list you have to pick your battles. With there mobility this should be achieved. Oh yeah Terror, Hatred, regen, No Flank, for 175pts this guy is stacked.

fall3nang3l
27-10-2009, 23:32
I never really was a fan of wraiths, to much of a points dump for me. And they need to stick close to a vampire so they can march which is VERY limiting to their effectiveness compared to the vargulf as a flank force. remember that when selecting them. They are more of a frontline/middle field supporting unit than a flank force unit.

I love the vargulf. He usualy draws a lot of fire but I never leave it alone. He always has a unit of 7-8 dire wolves supporting him (5 is too vulnerable to ranged fire). They can keep up, screen, able to march deeep along a flank and a dual charge can wipe out units from the flank because they negate ranks. they are also good warmachine harassers.

also the speed higher speed of the vargulf allows it to sneak behind enemy lines to cause terror better than wraiths.
Wraiths move slower, have to stay near your vampires. so they have to stay with your battleline, or stay near your bloodknights . while the varguf can move up the other flank.

Wraiths are pretty much an "I win" unit. they just go on by themselves and wipe out entire units. they dont take much tactical usage to use correctly aside from what target to charge and when.

artyboy
28-10-2009, 03:18
Wraiths are really hit or miss. Vargulfs are really consistent. Between these two units you've got a force against any army. Run them together and you can roll up the flank of just about anyone. I may be a little biased against wraiths because I play HE a lot and I always seem to run into the "everyone has magic weapons" item. Demons completely negate them as well. Either your opponent doesn't have an answer for them or they're free victory points because your opponent can deal with them so easily.

Classical Mushroom
28-10-2009, 06:14
In almost all my games with VC (a fair few) iv had a unit of 5 Cairn Wraiths with no Banshee. IMO they are far better than a Vargulf (in my eyes anyway)

With only 175pts to play with its really down to what you want for the points. The Vargulf will offer more hitting power that a unit of 2 wraith and a banshee tho the banshee has the scream.

Gaargod
28-10-2009, 12:21
I don't get why everyone keeps going on about the individual abilties of each unit. YEs, they're both fairly killy, but they're never going to win from a front charge into ranked infantry (unless you're taking a BIG unit of wraiths with helm, but that costs a lot).

When you have to take 3 blocks of infantry as core, which can be raised to big SCR, yo may as well use them. Let the enemy charge your skeletons/ghouls, then flank charge next turn with vargulf. He won't break ranks, but he adds kills and a flank charge bonus, which is often enough to win combat and autobreak enemies. Same for wraiths

Midevil216
28-10-2009, 14:45
I think its funny that the Varghulf nemisis would be Bret. archers with the flaming arrows. Pesants will take down a Varghulf quick but can't kill anything else.

But I use a Varghulf and he does ok if supported with another unit.
Been meaning to try the wraiths but have not yet.

I guess it would depend on who you were fighting.

Scythe
28-10-2009, 15:16
Did people stop using the 7+ wraith super unit along with the vampire hat that gives them ws7? It seemed rather popular for a while.

Well, army-wide magic attack army book daemons arrived, which also happend to be the strongest army (and thus a tournaments players favorite chocie). ;)

Generally, Wraiths are probably better, but they are, like mentioned, more of a hit or a miss. Against some armies, they suffer spectaculary (daemons). Against others, they are quite vulnerable (skaven, wood elves, other undead). Against the rest, they tend to be amazing.

Due to this, I rather take the Vargulf, who has a solid performance against most armies. Together with 6 black knights (and possible dire wolves), he guards my flank. Against weak opposition, the knights and the Vargulf can engage units on their own, while they can combine forces against stronger opposition, or in flank charges. Big winner for me here is that the Vargulf enables my terrain-ignoring knights to march, enabeling some very nice flanking maneuvers.

JackBurton01
28-10-2009, 22:24
Okay something I just found that works in Army builder, but might not be leagal. Etheral vampire can be a battle standard bearer and can take a magic banner. Put that in a wraith unit and they can technically have regen. Depends if a magic banner is a magic item or not. Either way he can still be a bsb and give you a bonus.

Scythe
29-10-2009, 07:35
Magic banners are magic items.

Still, paying almost 200 points just for the vampire and his battle standard would not really be worth it imho (it could buy you 4 extra wraiths, or 6 if the vampire could take the banner).

Warp-Juicer
29-10-2009, 09:38
Successful Vampire count player in my area uses both.