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Warsurge
21-09-2009, 01:59
I have been really interested in the Thousand Sons recently and was wondering if you guys could help me out on some questions regarding them:

Was Magnus the Red, his Thousand Sons, and the people that inhabited Prospero wronged? After all why should they have been punished when all they were trying to do was warn the Emperor what was to happen? Yes, I understand that Horus was able to convince Russ to attack rather them rather than bring Magnus back to Terra. But still even after the Thousand Sons were evacuated they still destroyed the planet with people on it. I think that it seems that the Imperium is overdoing it. Why? Well they are trying to make themselves forget that it ever happened by erasing all traces of that particular Legion, even the planet itself. I am sure once the Emperor realised that Magnus was right all along, he would have tried to tell the Wolves not to destroy Prospero, but that never happened. The perfect god of mankind right? :rolleyes:

How would they recruit more Thousand Sons? I mean if they ever do. Just wondering because all of their men turned to dust along with the gene-seed inside them. Without that the Legion is sure to be doomed eventually. If they don't recruit does the spirit live forever on in the suit of armor?

Are the Thousand Sons truly connected to Chaos? I mean sure they worship it, but only because they were forced into a situation where they had to or face extinction. I am sure that they know now that they are in no where near the line of extinction. So why won't they back out of worshipping of Tzeentch? Tzeentch doesn't care about them and I am sure they know it, or at least the people in high places do. They knew that the mutations were not "gifts" to them and that's why they tried to cast the Rubric of Ahriman blocking out Tzeentch's "gifts" and mutations in general. If they were able to sway away from Tzeentch and the rest of the chaotic influence, do you think they would be accepted back into the fold of the Imperium. After all the Emperor himself owes an apology to all of them. They were forced to do something they were against.

I am sure that Magnus would have been indeed angry about what Ahriman did, but it was an accident. Forgive and forget right? Nah! He banished him and his league of sorcerers to walk the Eye of Terror. Ahriman is a valuable asset to Magnus but he doesn't see why. Sure he screwed up, but what is the next important thing that Ahriman is "close" to getting. The Black Library. A vast amount of information on Chaos. Why won't Magnus bring Ahriman back into the fold to get that information and become more godlike?

Is there a slight possibility that they might be able to correct the Rubric of Ahriman? Make them seem less controlled in a way, rather than seeming mindless puppets to the sorcerers around them.

If I am saying something that seems untrue please tell me and help me understand the correct answer.

Thanks very much for reading,

Warsurge

ryng_sting
21-09-2009, 08:48
"Was Magnus the Red, his Thousand Sons, and the people that inhabited Prospero wronged?"

No.

There was a reason the Emperor warned Magnus about sorcery - how you can never be sure you're getting the better end of the deal, of how you can ever be sure that you're the servant rather than the master. It's also an example of how Chaos corrupts by going after virtue as well as vice. Magnus's thirst for knowledge led him to believe knowledge he could master the warp. (A delusion, by the way, Ahriman continues to cherish.) So to him it made perfect sense to use sorcery to send his message.

Of course, what Magnus didn't know was this was what the Chaos gods wanted, since the spell ruined the Webway project and kept the Emperor out of loop at a critical moment. It also set into motion the chain of events that would allow Tzeentch to claim a Space Marine Legion for himself, as the other gods had done. When push came to shove, Magnus was the one being mastered. The key thing to remember is that Magnus isn't some Promethean over-reacher; he's fortune's fool.

In response to your other questions:

Rubric marines seem to be effectively immortal, provided no one goes near them with a hoover.
Never seen anything about them recruiting new marines.
If Magnus could have undone the Rubric, he would have done. He spared Ahriman because Tzeentch told him to. ("Magnussss....you would ssssmassshhh my pawnsssss too readily....") Whatever Ahriman does ultimately furthers Tzeentch's cause, more so because he doesn't realise it. (Or, perhaps, realises it and is simply in denial.)

grissom2006
21-09-2009, 09:48
You'll find at least two threads covering them taking on new marines

The Anarchist
21-09-2009, 16:58
well not all space marines of the Thousand sons were turned to dust, just those without any psychic powers. so in theory (tenative) thousand sons progenoid glands could be harvested from Librarians of the Thousand sons that didn't get dusted. however the likelyhood of this happening is very remote.

C4Clan
21-09-2009, 18:58
Well, if i might add my two cents about Magnus forgiving Ahriman.
That is much to ask of both of them.
If we take a look at Magnus, at least some Fluff indicates that he has a rather fatherly relation to his Legion (the name Thousand Sons might be a giveaway). Well, not only did Ahriman turn Magnus "sons" into a horde of ash zombies (I like to avoid the term Automaton, since I don't think it describes the Status of the Rubric Marines adequately), no he turned them into a horde of MINDLESS ash zombies. Now we are talking about the Legion with the credo knowledge is power. So, from Magnus POV Ahriman has betrayed him, his Legion and the very governing principle of his legion. I can't see him forgiving that anytime.
On the other Hand are some serious philosophical differences between the two: While Magnus seems to have completely accepted his fate as Tzeentch's pawn, Ahriman absolutely denies that Chaos has any control over him trying to Master Chaos instead.

Well, that's it for now

massey
21-09-2009, 20:35
With all their scarab stuff, do the Thousand Sons remind anyone else of Journey?

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/journey-scarab-greatest-hits-symbol.jpg

I just can't stop thinking of Arhiman busting out "Wheel in the sky keeps on buuurniiiin...'"

Minion
21-09-2009, 20:58
No they were not wronged.Because Thousand Sons hoped to master the Warp.and this was also an ambition shared by Magnus.Of course mastery over the warp propably means mastery over the Gods of chaos who are part of it(rather impossible).IMHO thats why Tzeench chose this legion as his;Tzeench enjoys paradox and irony.And as a bitter irony and twist of fate he seized control of the Thousand Sons.Magnus's rage against Ahriman was rather a policy issue.Sure Thousand Sons are dumb walking hulks of armour but you cant deny that they have their uses and strengths.They dont disobey orders,dont squabble and dont stop fighting when a random body part falls off.No other marine is THAT strong.My point is that Magnus was looking for a pretext to get rid of Ahriman.There was no reason to correct the Rubric since it was considered to be a success(although doubt there is that the Rubric can be ''fixed'').Recruiting new Thousand Sons is impossible since there indeed is no gene-seed.Obviously new recruits are simply put the vanilla marines with icon of Tzeench.But the original legion is you know...ash marines.

trigger
21-09-2009, 22:39
I have been really interested in the Thousand Sons recently and was wondering if you guys could help me out on some questions regarding them:

Was Magnus the Red, his Thousand Sons, and the people that inhabited Prospero wronged? After all why should they have been punished when all they were trying to do was warn the Emperor what was to happen? Yes, I understand that Horus was able to convince Russ to attack rather them rather than bring Magnus back to Terra.



In the original fluff , Russ aked Magnus to come to terra ( he even sent a personal escort for him ) Magnus sent the escort back telling Russ to do one and he had far more important things to do. Russ told magnus he was going back with him and agin magnus told russ to do one ...ending in the sacking of prospero.
Modern fluff has turned Russ into an idiot with no sense ( i collect wolves so this is hard ) They have made him apear to be dim... and magnus would not have seen it ???? HE can see Horus ha fallen from grace but cant fortell that the wolves are coming for him ????? New fluff rubish.
But yes he did do wrong , he was old not to do it , but as every teenager thinks they know best he still did , and he got a good hideing for it :D

Brother Raziel
22-09-2009, 06:38
Modern fluff has turned Russ into an idiot with no sense ( i collect wolves so this is hard ) They have made him apear to be dim... and magnus would not have seen it ???? HE can see Horus ha fallen from grace but cant fortell that the wolves are coming for him ????? New fluff rubish. But yes he did do wrong , he was old not to do it , but as every teenager thinks they know best he still did , and he got a good hideing for it :D

It's very likely that Tzeentch hid it from him and only let him see what he wanted him to see.

zendral
22-09-2009, 07:18
Recruiting new Thousand Sons is impossible since there indeed is no gene-seed.Obviously new recruits are simply put the vanilla marines with icon of Tzeench.But the original legion is you know...ash marines.

Uh, no. As The Anarchist said, only the non-magical marines were dusted. It is possible to extract new seed from the sorcerers. Albeit slowly, but possible to rebuild the legion.

The question of how they recruit comes up every once in awhile. It's really up to you as their is no GW approved answer to this. Common answers include: armor can repair itself after the battle with the help of magic, the soul returning to it. Casting small versions of the rubric on new recruits. Or possibly not casting the spell and restarting the non-magical son troops.

Time will tell. Hopefully we can get an answer with the legion books(if and when they come out). But the geneseed is still their.

reds8n
22-09-2009, 09:30
I'm sure that at least one of the Wolf novels sees them summoning "lost souls"/similar back into the armoured shells.

I guess they could also just use stolen geneseed like the other traitor legions do.

Mojaco
22-09-2009, 12:01
Thousand Sons are awesome. What other chapter offers so much when it comes to moralities?

The moment Magnus had to turn to Tzeentch for help, he knew he had taken it too far and the Emperor was right all along. Now he sits on some planet in the EoT, sobbing. Poor sod.

Ahirman however has a far more hands-on approach. He, and I recon many others with him, continue to persue power, with the hope of one day mastering the warp and its gods completely. If he ever manages it (a big 'if'), he'll be free of the shackles of tzeentch. Whether this is impossible or not, it sure beats sitting around doing nothing. Kudos to Ahirman; a man with a vision.

Too bad the persuit of his goals made him quite evil.

Minion
22-09-2009, 12:45
i very much doubt that Ahriman and his Cabal or anyone could achieve mastery over the warp.they cant master the real world wich is bound by laws.how can you control a realm of massive energetic forces where no laws apply and entities hungry for souls dwell???Ahriman has no vision;he's delussional.The Chaos Gods didint force anyone to service.Those who craved for more power and a ''free'' life unbound by the ''God'' Emperor could follow Horus.It was that simple;tick box A=Faith to the emperor or tick box B and follow Horus.

Mojaco
22-09-2009, 13:41
i very much doubt that Ahriman and his Cabal or anyone could achieve mastery over the warp.they cant master the real world wich is bound by laws.how can you control a realm of massive energetic forces where no laws apply and entities hungry for souls dwell???
You have a different definition of mastery. I meant being able to use the forces contained within to your will. That doesn't mean you need to be able to reshape the warp itself, it only means you need to be a bit more in control than the nearest after you.

The Black Library could give him the tools.

Thanatos_elNyx
22-09-2009, 16:03
"Was Magnus the Red, his Thousand Sons, and the people that inhabited Prospero wronged?"

No.

I think he was.
We know he was 100% loyal until he was forced to side with Chaos to save his Legion.


There was a reason the Emperor warned Magnus about sorcery - how you can never be sure you're getting the better end of the deal, of how you can ever be sure that you're the servant rather than the master. It's also an example of how Chaos corrupts by going after virtue as well as vice. Magnus's thirst for knowledge led him to believe knowledge he could master the warp. (A delusion, by the way, Ahriman continues to cherish.) So to him it made perfect sense to use sorcery to send his message.

The very fact that Ahriman is still going and but for some better rules during the 13th Crusade he would have gotten to the Black Library and assended to Godhood; and thus prove that the Warp can be mastered by mortals.

If Magnus hadn't been betrayed by Horus and Leman Russ, who knows how far he would have gotten.

ryng_sting
22-09-2009, 19:22
"We know he was 100% loyal until he was forced to side with Chaos to save his Legion"

Except when Magnus decided he was right and the Emperor was wrong, and wrecked the webway project proving it.

"and thus the Warp can be mastered by mortals."

Ahriman is only alive because of Tzeentch's personal intervention, as one of his cherished 'pawns'. That would rather suggest Ahriman is not going to enjoy any triumph in the Black Library for long.

LexxBomb
23-09-2009, 03:29
"We know he was 100% loyal until he was forced to side with Chaos to save his Legion"

Except when Magnus decided he was right and the Emperor was wrong, and wrecked the webway project proving it.

"and thus the Warp can be mastered by mortals."

Ahriman is only alive because of Tzeentch's personal intervention, as one of his cherished 'pawns'. That would rather suggest Ahriman is not going to enjoy any triumph in the Black Library for long.

your logic may be flawed.

you can be loyal but believe that you are nore right then the person you are loyal to. just because you are loyal to someone does not mean you have to do exactly what they want you to or what they say... Islamic militants are fanaticly loyal to their religion but their religion demands thats they never take a life, the same goes for Christians. An other Example from history then... The Roman Empire... Julius Ceasar was for all intense and purposes Rome but he was assassinated by the Senate... Does that mean the Senators were disloyal to Rome... No, infact they were being more loyal tyhen Ceasar was because the Roman Republic was founded upon the prinsiple of no Dictatoras or Kings hence why it was a Republic.

inregard to Arhiman and him being saved by Tzeentch your logic would say that Tzeentch wanted the Emperor to slaw Horus... Tzeentch wanted The Emperor gone completely because he was the Biggest threat to the Chaos Gods... If The Emperor dies and is allowed to have his sould enter the warp then the warp could arguebly became calm and thus destroying the Chaos Gods, not something that Tzeentch would want. Horus was ment to destroy The Emperor Utterly as The Emperor did to Horus (well thats my take on it).

massey
23-09-2009, 03:38
The Thousand Sons got tricked by Tzeentch. Whatever the intent, they proceeded with research into forbidden topics and they got schooled for it. Think of Magnus as Dr Frankenstein. He laughs off the concern of others, delving into taboo subjects and discovering things man was not meant to know. Only once everything falls apart does he see that he is the one who was wrong, who made a mistake.

Arhiman? He still hasn't opened his eyes. He's the guy who keeps going back to the well, thinking that "I'll get it right, this time..."

Each of the chaos legions fell because of a particular obsession. Pursuit of that obsession became more important to them than service to the Emperor. They might not have even realized it at the time. Them using sorcery to warn the Emperor would be the equivalent of Picasso giving his girlfriend his ear and saying "I did this for yoooouuuu..."

Thanatos_elNyx
23-09-2009, 08:05
The Thousand Sons got tricked by Tzeentch. Whatever the intent, they proceeded with research into forbidden topics and they got schooled for it.

Those subjects weren't forbidden until after the Council, and then they were still convinced that Sorcery could be for the benefit of Mankind.

ryng_sting
23-09-2009, 12:58
your logic may be flawed.


inregard [sic] to Arhiman [sic[ and him being saved by Tzeentch your logic would say that Tzeentch wanted the Emperor to slaw [sic] Horus... Tzeentch wanted The Emperor gone completely because he was the Biggest [sic] threat to the Chaos Gods...

Except that Tzeentch sparing Ahriman is fact; Tzeentch wanting the Emperor dead is mere supposition. So, in fact, it holds just fine.


Those subjects weren't forbidden until after the Council, and then they were still convinced that Sorcery could be for the benefit of Mankind.

And look where it led them. Hardly beneficial results, and all because Magnus was too proud to accept the Emperor's decree.

Mojaco
23-09-2009, 13:11
Ahriman is not just a puppet. At least, he does not need to be. Tzeentch has a lot of control, but it is not infinite. Tzeentch has a habit of plotting against himself; after all, he thrives on change. If he were to 'win' and destroy the other powers and conquer mankind he would no longer be. He plots for the sake of plotting, shifting the balance of power back and forth. It is possible that Ahirman will one day slip through one of the cracks that Tzeentch creates for himself that way.

massey
23-09-2009, 13:13
Those subjects weren't forbidden until after the Council, and then they were still convinced that Sorcery could be for the benefit of Mankind.

Yes. And they were wrong.

"Liiife! Give my creation... liiiife!"

They were blinded to the danger by their own obsession. That makes them tragic characters, but it doesn't mean they were betrayed.

C4Clan
23-09-2009, 17:36
And look where it led them. Hardly beneficial results, and all because Magnus was too proud to accept the Emperor's decree.

One might argue that the fall of the Thousand Sons was because Magnus did something the Emperor forbid and not because the TS failed at their pursuit of psychic mastery.

What I find quite amusing is the fact that some people think that: Emperor forbids sorcery = sorcery evil. This argument would only absolutely hold true if both the emperor and the Chaos gods were infallible. And at least I think that the Emperor has shown quite impressively that he was quite fallible. The same can be said for the Chaos gods. So, just because the Emperor said Sorcery will corrupt you, it doesn't mean that Sorcery WILL corrupt you, just that it is very likely.

Also, to my knowledge there was never any mentioning that the Thousand Sons suffered any consequences through their sorcerous(sp?) actions. Although one might argue that this was because Tzeentch already kept watch over them. That we will probably never know.

Thanatos_elNyx
24-09-2009, 07:45
And look where it led them. Hardly beneficial results, and all because Magnus was too proud to accept the Emperor's decree.


Yes. And they were wrong. They were blinded to the danger by their own obsession. That makes them tragic characters, but it doesn't mean they were betrayed.

The Thousand Sons are where they are because of the fallibility of the Emperor, the plotting of Horus and the gullibility of Leman Russ.
And yes, the machinations of Tzeentch as well; but for all that we have no way of knowing where the Thousand Sons would be now with all this going on around them.

I like to think they would still be loyal fighting for the Emperor.

NightrawenII
24-09-2009, 07:56
One might argue that the fall of the Thousand Sons was because Magnus did something the Emperor forbid and not because the TS failed at their pursuit of psychic mastery.

What I find quite amusing is the fact that some people think that: Emperor forbids sorcery = sorcery evil. This argument would only absolutely hold true if both the emperor and the Chaos gods were infallible. And at least I think that the Emperor has shown quite impressively that he was quite fallible. The same can be said for the Chaos gods. So, just because the Emperor said Sorcery will corrupt you, it doesn't mean that Sorcery WILL corrupt you, just that it is very likely.


There exist thousands upon thousands of examples in lore to prove you are wrong. Try to read more.:cheese:

massey
24-09-2009, 13:15
One might argue that the fall of the Thousand Sons was because Magnus did something the Emperor forbid and not because the TS failed at their pursuit of psychic mastery.

What I find quite amusing is the fact that some people think that: Emperor forbids sorcery = sorcery evil. This argument would only absolutely hold true if both the emperor and the Chaos gods were infallible. And at least I think that the Emperor has shown quite impressively that he was quite fallible. The same can be said for the Chaos gods. So, just because the Emperor said Sorcery will corrupt you, it doesn't mean that Sorcery WILL corrupt you, just that it is very likely.

Also, to my knowledge there was never any mentioning that the Thousand Sons suffered any consequences through their sorcerous(sp?) actions. Although one might argue that this was because Tzeentch already kept watch over them. That we will probably never know.

I forbid my 4 year old nephew from playing with fire. Playing with fire isn't bad simply because I forbid it. And if I'm not perfect, that doesn't mean that playing with fire is somehow okay.


The Thousand Sons are where they are because of the fallibility of the Emperor, the plotting of Horus and the gullibility of Leman Russ.
And yes, the machinations of Tzeentch as well; but for all that we have no way of knowing where the Thousand Sons would be now with all this going on around them.

I like to think they would still be loyal fighting for the Emperor.

The Thousand Sons are where they are because they're tools, didn't know their limitations, and thought they knew better than the boss. Remember that for all Magnus' "insight", he never saw his own end coming. Then his legion started to mutate, when they were pretty much doing exactly what they had been doing before. And Magnus was powerless to stop it.

We know for a fact that the Thousand Sons were playing with things beyond their control. If the Emperor hadn't sent Leman Russ, the TS would still have started to mutate. They'd still have fallen to Chaos.

Thanatos_elNyx
24-09-2009, 15:39
I forbid my 4 year old nephew from playing with fire. Playing with fire isn't bad simply because I forbid it. And if I'm not perfect, that doesn't mean that playing with fire is somehow okay.

When I was a kid, my Father tried to stop me from getting into Gaming.
I refused and here I am today.

Though I am not sure that is necessarily a good thing. ;)


Remember that for all Magnus' "insight", he never saw his own end coming.
There were mitigating factors for that.
The Space Puppies brought the Sisters of Silence to shroud their approach, perhaps Tzeentch hid their approach to help enact his final play or maybe Magnus knew they were coming but didn't know they intended to attack due to Russes changed orders.


Then his legion started to mutate, when they were pretty much doing exactly what they had been doing before. And Magnus was powerless to stop it.
They started to mutated when they took up residence in the Eye of Terror. That tends to have a mutating effect on everyone.
Magnus wasn't powerless, he just wasn't too bothered by it either since he was himself elevated to Daemon Princehood.


We know for a fact that the Thousand Sons were playing with things beyond their control. If the Emperor hadn't sent Leman Russ, the TS would still have started to mutate. They'd still have fallen to Chaos.
Fact? Point out the evidence. I have seen nothing to indicate that they were playing with forces out of their control. They certainly seemed to be in full control of their powers right up until they were betrayed by the Emperor, Horus and Leman Russ.

As for mutation, I very much doubt they would have mutated on Prospero nor fallen to Chaos. They had gotten on fine during the Great Crusade which lastest what a few centuries.

C4Clan
24-09-2009, 18:22
There exist thousands upon thousands of examples in lore to prove you are wrong. Try to read more.:cheese:

Probably, but a finite number of examples is not absolute proof, that requires infinite examples. A propability of 0,00000000000001 means that something is very unlikely but it is still far from impossible. And that is what I wanted to say.
In the end Magnus was corrupted by Tzeentch but again that doesn't mean that in the infinite number of outcomes there could not have been one where this was not the case.


I forbid my 4 year old nephew from playing with fire. Playing with fire isn't bad simply because I forbid it. And if I'm not perfect, that doesn't mean that playing with fire is somehow okay

Forbidding your son of playing with fire is a very sensible choice. Unfortunatly for your argument here is that you forbade it because you are afraid that your son MIGHT hurt himself and/or others not because you KNOW that he WILL INEVITABLY hurt himself and/or others.
Playing with fire is certainly dangerous but not inevitably so. Just imagine were humanity would be if this would be the case. Probably extinct by now.


The Thousand Sons are where they are because they're tools, didn't know their limitations, and thought they knew better than the boss

So the boss is always right? Never argue against something your superior says. Obey and keep your mouth shut? I hardly believe that this can truly be your opinion. Even in 40k might doesn't make right even if the Imperium might believe that.

Well back to the original topic:
By using sorcery to send the warning of horus treachery, Magnus broke imperial law, thus punishment was necessary. There can be no doubt about that.
Magnus is guilty of breaking imperial law and responsible for the destruction of the webway project. I say responsible because I can't see any morally guilt on his part for this. The existence of the project was not known to Magnus, so it's destruction through his spell was neither intentional nor did he recklessly endorsed it.
Well, anyway punishment for him would have been just. But putting the entire Legion and all of Prospero to the torch? Absolutely not.

The recent fluff regarding puts the emperor in a rather favorably light, only demanding that Magnus would be brought to Terra.
In the older fluff on the other hand...there was something seriously wrong with the emperor. After one of his sons ripped the the Imperium apart and was responsible for the death of several Primachs, the Emperor still thought he could save Horus. But before the Heresy, when Magnus accused the beloved Horus of treachery, the Emperor put an entire world with every man, women and child on it to the torch. Keep in mind that this was before the Exterminatus policy of the Imperium (I think at least). There seem to be some serious rage issues with that guy.
Thankfully the new fluff has turned it into something slightly better.

massey
24-09-2009, 21:04
Probably, but a finite number of examples is not absolute proof, that requires infinite examples. A propability of 0,00000000000001 means that something is very unlikely but it is still far from impossible. And that is what I wanted to say.
In the end Magnus was corrupted by Tzeentch but again that doesn't mean that in the infinite number of outcomes there could not have been one where this was not the case.



Forbidding your son of playing with fire is a very sensible choice. Unfortunatly for your argument here is that you forbade it because you are afraid that your son MIGHT hurt himself and/or others not because you KNOW that he WILL INEVITABLY hurt himself and/or others.
Playing with fire is certainly dangerous but not inevitably so. Just imagine were humanity would be if this would be the case. Probably extinct by now.

I don't have to have infinite knowledge to tell him not to play with fire. I don't have to have infinite knowledge in order to punish him if I catch him playing with fire (well, technically, I'll leave punishment up to his dad, since he's my nephew and all). I tell him not to do it, he better do as I say.

The problem is that you're trying to create this requirement that the Emperor be flawless. He doesn't have to be. He's the Emperor (in the political sense). He's the guy in charge. He's the head of the political system and Magnus is his subject. The Emperor has the authority to set rules and expect his subjects to obey. Magnus owes him his loyalty. The Emperor is not only his lord, he's also his superior officer. You think Sergeant Bob can disobey Colonel Jones just because Bob thinks the Colonel doesn't know what he's talking about?


So the boss is always right? Never argue against something your superior says. Obey and keep your mouth shut? I hardly believe that this can truly be your opinion. Even in 40k might doesn't make right even if the Imperium might believe that.

The boss isn't always right. But then you either follow the rules or you try to change them. Magnus "supporters" are crying their eyes out talking about how he was betrayed by the Emperor. Magnus straight up defied the Emperor and broke the law. He's like those guys who grow marijuana in their basement because they don't believe it should be illegal. Actually, he's closer to a David Koresh style guy, who believes that having multiple wives is cool, and that the government shouldn't be able to take his machine guns away. So the ATF (the Space Wolves) shows up, there's a big cluster****, and in the end everyone wonders how things went wrong so quickly.

Magnus was breaking the law right under the Emperor's nose, and had no intention of changing, ever. Whether the Emperor was right or wrong (and we know in hindsight, for all his faults, he was right on this one), Magnus was absolutely disobeying direct orders.

Slyck
24-09-2009, 22:31
I think your diminishing the Primarchs by calling them subjects. They weren't citizens of the Empire, they were it's Princes, as above the law as the Emperor himself. Sure they had to answer to the Emperor, but out of the principle of loyalty to your family more so then any rule of law.

Thanatos_elNyx
25-09-2009, 07:42
Whether the Emperor was right or wrong (and we know in hindsight, for all his faults, he was right on this one), Magnus was absolutely disobeying direct orders.

eh!? We know in hindsight that the Emperor was wrong and Magnus was right. If the Emperor had sent Russ and Magnus after Horus, then the drop site massacre might have gone very differently. Instead of 9 Legions Vs 6 on Earth it could have been 8 Vs 10.


You think Sergeant Bob can disobey Colonel Jones just because Bob thinks the Colonel doesn't know what he's talking about?

I am not a military brat but I think you still have to follow your conscience as well.
So if Colonel Jones orders Sergeant Bob to torch a building full of innocent civilians, then he isn't Wrong to disobey.

Have you seen the Star Trek episode of Redemption? In it Lt. Cmdr. Data disobeys orders in order to reveal the Romulan involvement in a Klingon Civil War and ends up saving the Federation.


The claim, 'I was only following orders' has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history. Starfleet does not want officers who will blindly follow orders without analyzing the situation. Your actions were appropriate for the circumstances, and I have noted that in your record.

ryng_sting
25-09-2009, 10:47
"eh!? We know in hindsight that the Emperor was wrong and Magnus was right."

Only we don't, because the opposite is true. Magnus was a dupe, and he played his part in Tzeentch's drama to a fault, and Horus's own warp allies told him as much.

"Point out the evidence. I have seen nothing to indicate that they were playing with forces out of their control."

Except for Magnus's part in ruining the Webway project - which has been pointed out to you more than once. The Emperor himself pointed out, in the fourth HH artbook, that the whole vision was a Chaos trap to tempt the naive Magnus.

Magnus and his Legion are whey they are because of their flaws - as with all the other Traitors. Angron genuinely believed he alone could save humanity, and that turning all his men into foaming psychopaths was the way to go; Mortarion genuinely believed he would be the herald of a new age of justice; and Magnus genuinely believed the warp could be mastered for nothing but benefit. As I said before, Magnus is no Promethean over-reacher, he's fortune's fool.

Mojaco
25-09-2009, 11:38
Magnus never saw it coming, and thus was wrong. He knew of the daemons, he knew of its corruption, and he was able to control both. But he couldn't have guessed about the webway thing, and so, dispite being in full control and doing everything right, he did everything wrong. This facet of his power was a dangerous as the others, and the Emperor knew it. Would've been nice to have said so though...

I also blame the Emperor. Building a Webway in secret is silly, what benefit did secrecy have here? He primarch showed plenty of times they were prone to some character flaws, so he could've guessed that selection one of the others would have dire consequences and give the Chaos Gods plenty of room to exploit. Git.

Thanatos_elNyx
25-09-2009, 13:00
Only we don't, because the opposite is true. Magnus was a dupe, and he played his part in Tzeentch's drama to a fault, and Horus's own warp allies told him as much.

All the characters were part of Tzeentch's plan, Magnus yes, but also the Emperor, Russ, and Horus.
Magnus is no more guilty of being a pawn than any of the others.


Except for Magnus's part in ruining the Webway project

I don't accept this.
If the Webway Project was a Person and Magnus killed them with his message then he would at worst be guilty of Manslaughter and not Murder as you would seem to divide all blame to him.

massey
25-09-2009, 16:18
I am not a military brat but I think you still have to follow your conscience as well.
So if Colonel Jones orders Sergeant Bob to torch a building full of innocent civilians, then he isn't Wrong to disobey.

Have you seen the Star Trek episode of Redemption? In it Lt. Cmdr. Data disobeys orders in order to reveal the Romulan involvement in a Klingon Civil War and ends up saving the Federation.

In the real world this doesn't happen.

Besides, we aren't talking about Mr Super-Smart Robot saving the day by disobeying an order when he has some additional information or insight. We're talking about someone who disobeys an order and then screws everything up.

Here are the facts.

1) Emperor says "don't do X".
2) Magnus does X.
3) Great disaster follows.

The Emperor isn't required to reveal all his plans to the Primarchs. It's like if my boss told me not to send any email next week, and I willfully (not because I forgot, which is probably what would really happen) send out a whole bunch of emails, including one to him telling him how smart I was and how wonderful the email system is working, and there was some problem with the system that I didn't know about, which caused all the computers to freak out and we lost all our data, do you think I'd have a job after that? It doesn't matter if I didn't know the system was being worked on.

Magnus didn't listen. He did the exact opposite of what he was told to do. And he screwed things up.

LexxBomb
25-09-2009, 16:37
you know you could follow the methodology taught to us in Ethtics for teachers...
PAVE
Principle - what principles are involved
Agreements - what social Agreements are in play
Virtues - What Virtues are involed
End Results - what results are possible and which result do we want that has the most benefits for the most people.

Given that people can only make decisions based upon the information they know about then if we apply it to Magnus Im sure you will come to realise that Magnus made the right ethical choice in attempting to contact the Emperor because even if he failed the warning would have put The Emperor into a defencive position evein if he knew nothing about Horus's betrayal.

Mojaco
25-09-2009, 16:55
In the real world this doesn't happen.

Besides, we aren't talking about Mr Super-Smart Robot saving the day by disobeying an order when he has some additional information or insight. We're talking about someone who disobeys an order and then screws everything up.

Here are the facts.

1) Emperor says "don't do X".
2) Magnus does X.
3) Great disaster follows.

The Emperor isn't required to reveal all his plans to the Primarchs. It's like if my boss told me not to send any email next week, and I willfully (not because I forgot, which is probably what would really happen) send out a whole bunch of emails, including one to him telling him how smart I was and how wonderful the email system is working, and there was some problem with the system that I didn't know about, which caused all the computers to freak out and we lost all our data, do you think I'd have a job after that? It doesn't matter if I didn't know the system was being worked on.

Magnus didn't listen. He did the exact opposite of what he was told to do. And he screwed things up.
Good example, but different than intended. Not being allowed to use your email is really odd, unless it was explained. If the Emperor just assumes people will trust him for whatever he says, it does not really fit his own enlightment program of people thinking for themselves based on reason and not on faith.

Face it, the Emperor was as big a part of this as Magnus.

LexxBomb
25-09-2009, 16:59
Heck The Emperor should have just listen to Eldrad... that kinda shows how old he (Eldrad) was given that the Great Crusade started only a couple of hundred years after the Eldar Fall and Birth of Slannesh. But then again The Emperor was much older then Eldrad...

C4Clan
25-09-2009, 18:39
I don't have to have infinite knowledge to tell him not to play with fire. I don't have to have infinite knowledge in order to punish him if I catch him playing with fire (well, technically, I'll leave punishment up to his dad, since he's my nephew and all). I tell him not to do it, he better do as I say.

I remember that I already said that I find that quite sensible. As you are his superior in this regard you also have the right to punish him if he disobeys your rules. But I can't stress this enough: your rule is based on an assumption not on knowledge. Which in turn means that if the boy plays with fire, it is wrong from your point of view BUT it does not mean that it is also wrong from an external viewpoint. Maybe the boy is smarter than you think and knows quite well how to avoid getting burned, maybe he does not. That you don't KNOW, you only ASSUME he is not, thus introducing a subjective aspect into your rule. Which leads to:


The problem is that you're trying to create this requirement that the Emperor be flawless. He doesn't have to be. He's the Emperor (in the political sense). He's the guy in charge. He's the head of the political system and Magnus is his subject. The Emperor has the authority to set rules and expect his subjects to obey. Magnus owes him his loyalty. The Emperor is not only his lord, he's also his superior officer.

First: This is a discussion, and as such different viewpoints are to be expected. As such I would like to ask you to refrain from calling other people's opinions "problematic". Should I have already done something similar in the course of this discussion I hereby apologize.

Second: No, the Emperor does not have to be infallible to enact a law. No one ever said such a thing. It is his right as the ruler of the Imperium. But I also think we might all agree that the Imperium is and never was a place where the laws are necessarily just.
And if the Emperor is fallible then it means his laws don't have to always be correct.
Which leads me to the conclusion that his law to forbid sorcery (or psychic powers as a whole in the new fluff, a fact that should be used to define the word hypocrisy in some dictionary, imo) might or might not be unjust. His grasp of the things is limited. If I think about it, the premise of the law is that any person could not grasp the entirety of the warp. And since the Emperor is a person he can not fully understand the warp either, thus he can not know if this statement is really true. But if he does fully understand the warp than it is contrary proof to his statement. Ooh, I might have found a Paradox, or is it just hypocrisy...? I don't know. Ah well, let's go on.


You think Sergeant Bob can disobey Colonel Jones just because Bob thinks the Colonel doesn't know what he's talking about?

At least were I am from Soldiers are allowed to disobey orders that either do not serve a purpose towards fulfilling the Soldiers duty (like if Colonel Jones orders Sergeant Bob, who works as a driver, to bring him a cup of coffee) or violates human dignity. The Soldier HAS TO disobey an order that would lead to a criminal act (like stealing a car) or poses a serious offense against basic human rights.
Of course during an engagement the rules are a little different. But I just want to show that the rule Orders are orders does not always apply.


The boss isn't always right. But then you either follow the rules or you try to change them. Magnus "supporters" are crying their eyes out talking about how he was betrayed by the Emperor. Magnus straight up defied the Emperor and broke the law.

Strange, I somehow always assumed Magnus send the Message to prove that the Emperors law was wrong. Would that not be the first step to change a rule, no?


He's like those guys who grow marijuana in their basement because they don't believe it should be illegal.

Unfortunately that Argument works against you. Cannabis has a few properties that turn it into a possible medicine. Thus the strict ban on cannabis is unjust towards those which could receive help through the medication with cannabis derivatives. So your guys in the basement break the law, but they might have valid reasons to do so.


Actually, he's closer to a David Koresh style guy, who believes that having multiple wives is cool, and that the government shouldn't be able to take his machine guns away. So the ATF (the Space Wolves) shows up, there's a big cluster****, and in the end everyone wonders how things went wrong so quickly.

Well, if some guys happen to burst into your place with guns blazing, killing everyone who for some unfortunate incident happens to be there, then yes, there is bound to be much **** hitting a very big fan.


Magnus was breaking the law right under the Emperor's nose, and had no intention of changing, ever. Whether the Emperor was right or wrong (and we know in hindsight, for all his faults, he was right on this one), Magnus was absolutely disobeying direct orders.

Of course Magnus broke imperial law. There can be no disagreement about that. But only because something is a law doesn't mean that law is just or right. It is just a law, a rule diminishing personal freedom in favour of the whole. They usually tend to be quite sensible, but not always. Heck, I life in a country that once had the concept of injustice as it's basic working principle.
And yes, Magnus surely was committed to his beliefs, simply because he truly believed that what he did was right. That does not make him evil. Are the protesters of June 17 1953 evil? Surely not.
And do we really know that the emperor was right here? Yes, Magnus fell victim to the predations of chaos, AFTER a certain man sent another certain man to him, who then decided it would be fun to instigate the first known inter Legion war.
It's like pushing the aformentioned boy into a flaming house and then telling him: "See, told you, you would burn yourself!"

ryng_sting
25-09-2009, 21:03
"I don't accept this. "

Plainly, given the amount of times you've been told and still contrived to miss the point.

"If the Webway Project was a Person [sic] and Magnus killed them with his message then he would at worst be guilty of Manslaughter [sic] and not Murder [sic] as you would seem to divide all blame to him."

Except it...wasn't. It was an engineering project, something inanimate. it would have been the first part of the Emperor's plan to free mankind from dependence on warp travel. The Chaos Gods couldn't directly intervene, and so lo! behold! Magnus's message did the job for them, threatening to flood Terra with daemons at best, and keep the Emperor out of the loop at worst.

Mojaco
25-09-2009, 22:15
Which leads me to the conclusion that his law to forbid sorcery (or psychic powers as a whole in the new fluff, a fact that should be used to define the word hypocrisy in some dictionary, imo) might or might not be unjust. His grasp of the things is limited. If I think about it, the premise of the law is that any person could not grasp the entirety of the warp. And since the Emperor is a person he can not fully understand the warp either, thus he can not know if this statement is really true. But if he does fully understand the warp than it is contrary proof to his statement. Ooh, I might have found a Paradox, or is it just hypocrisy...? I don't know. Ah well, let's go on.
The biggest hypocrisy is the Emperor basically saying "you can't use magic, only I am smart enough to do so." Arrogance at it's worst. He could have tutored Magnus, but instead he smacked down him exploring his greatest talent. Fool.

Thanatos_elNyx
25-09-2009, 22:58
Except it...wasn't. It was an engineering project, something inanimate. it would have been the first part of the Emperor's plan to free mankind from dependence on warp travel. The Chaos Gods couldn't directly intervene, and so lo! behold! Magnus's message did the job for them, threatening to flood Terra with daemons at best, and keep the Emperor out of the loop at worst.

How much did Magnus know about the Webway Project = The amount of blame that he should take for wrecking it.