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Asmodiseus
21-09-2009, 17:39
This came up in my previous game. (Note this isnt the exact situation or units but it reflects the question at hand)

CCCCC

XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX


WWWWW
WWWWW
WWWWW
WWWWW
WWWWW
_______________


C= Charging Cav

X= Crossbow men

W= Warrior Unit

The line is the edge of the map board

So C charges and X decides to flee. They roll 7 which puts them in the middle of unit W. By rules they get bounced to the back of unit W. Now if we keep the unit in formation they are off the map board. However if we treat the unit as a skirmishing unit because they are fleeing they can get bounced through the unit and stay on the board in a loose formation.

So the question is does a fleeing unit have to maintain its formation if that results in it fleeing off the board?

Atrahasis
21-09-2009, 17:41
Yes, it must maintain its formation, and is dead. Even models in skirmishing units must maintain the same relative positions when fleeing.

Drachen_Jager
21-09-2009, 19:22
Yep, it would be too much of a drag on time to allow formation changes mid-flee and it wouldn't make much sense anyhow.

The Red Scourge
22-09-2009, 12:44
Both Atrahasis and Drachen_Jager is wrong.

Its a skirmished unit, and should be placed as such. Keeping the formation is something people do to speed up the game, just as rolling handfulls of dice instead of one at a time :)

Atrahasis
22-09-2009, 13:11
Ok, would you care to support your assertions with quotations from the rules?

I'll save you the effort by telling you you can't, because you're wrong ;)

All the models in a fleeing unit are bound to move the same distance in the same direction. Their relative positions (and therefore formation) remain the same.

EvC
22-09-2009, 13:36
Indeed, even if X was a skirmish unit to begin with, or became one as soon as it fled (It doesn't), it'd still bounce off the board as every model would be forced to move the appropriate distance in the appropriate direction. Which means they gone, sucka.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
22-09-2009, 15:47
Which means they gone, sucka.

HA! That was awesome. This was also the first question I've read on Warseer about rules where I didn't have to refer to the rulebook to know the unit in question had buggered off!

kyinpie
22-09-2009, 15:59
Both Atrahasis and Drachen_Jager is wrong.

Its a skirmished unit, and should be placed as such. Keeping the formation is something people do to speed up the game, just as rolling handfulls of dice instead of one at a time :)

in the rules page 19 under flee third paragraph! :)

they turn on the spot and face directly away then move 2D6/3D6.

Asmodiseus
22-09-2009, 18:15
You know I wrote a long response stating why I think the unit should not be killed, it focused on page 40 where it stated "The units abandons its formation, however It is convenient to keep the unit in its formation for movement purposes".

However when I went to look up the rules for skirmishers I found that there is nothing that I could find in the rules at all that stated fleeing units are skirmishers. Is this an old 6th edition thing that got deleted in 7th? I have been playing that units shooting at fleeing units get -1 for shooting at skirmishers.

I have to defend Red Scourge to an extent though, In my opinion you shouldn't ask someone to justify an answer using a rule quote, then in the next breath give an answer that has no basis in the rules what so ever. As far as I know "All the models in a fleeing unit are bound to move the same distance in the same direction. Their relative positions (and therefore formation) remain the same." does not appear anywhere in the rule book.

T10
22-09-2009, 18:33
Indeed, even if X was a skirmish unit to begin with, or became one as soon as it fled (It doesn't), it'd still bounce off the board as every model would be forced to move the appropriate distance in the appropriate direction. Which means they gone, sucka.

Well, the assumption here is that any skirmishing unit doesn't "compress" or "distend" when "bouncing". After all, some of those models will have made their full move into the friendly unit while others do not. In fact, some models may not even move through the friendly unit at all.

While I agree that the models should retain their relative positions, I don't see this being explicitly stated.

Atrahasis
23-09-2009, 08:43
I have to defend Red Scourge to an extent though, In my opinion you shouldn't ask someone to justify an answer using a rule quote, then in the next breath give an answer that has no basis in the rules what so ever. As far as I know "All the models in a fleeing unit are bound to move the same distance in the same direction. Their relative positions (and therefore formation) remain the same." does not appear anywhere in the rule book.The unit moves a given distance in a given direction. The models in that unit must therefore move that given distance in that given direction.

This is supported by the FAQs and various diagrams that show units (both skirmish and non-skirmish) maintaining the relative positions of the models when fleeing.

Max1mum
23-09-2009, 10:48
i would say they are gone.

especially because i'm pretty sure that you never turned your fleeing units into skirmishers. And if would do so in this situation then you are making use of a rule because it works out for you on this particulair situation. And that's always wrong ;-).

How ever, if my opponent would try to argue the case i would shrug and allow him to place his models in a skirmish formation ;-) i'm not there to argue :P

theunwantedbeing
23-09-2009, 12:19
I'm assuming that you'de argue that fleeing units count as skirmishers and therefore suffer a -1 to hit penalty when shooting if they are us1 models, correct?

The issue here is that you do actually need to back that up with actual rules from the book.

Fleeing unit's do not skirmish.
Page 19
Fleeing is done first by pivoting the units on the spot (around their centre) to face directly away from the charging enemy
Page 41
Fleeing troops move straight through freindly units, fleeing enemy units and all enemy units with a unit strength of less than 5. Fleeing units that would otherwise end up on top of such units are instead placed beyond them as shown on Diagram 41.1

Yadda yadda
Your ranked unit doesnt turn into a skirmisher and so is "bounced off the table".

Note that as I have provided page references, my opinion is now more valid than anyone who has not. (although its worth checking those page references incase I've made them up just to look smart!)
So people like Red Scourge need to find their own page references to back up their arguments otherwise we can safely assume they are infact wrong.

Max1mum
23-09-2009, 12:38
...actualy by calling it a opinion you make arguable ;-)

you are quoting facts :P i had a opinion ;-).

anyway thanks for taking the trouble to dig up a rulebook ;-)

Rooze
24-09-2009, 13:44
Actually, it is probably stated somewhere, somehow (not sure of exact wording) but when fleeing, the unit must move as fast and direct as possible towards hwerever (table edge, direct line away from attacker, etc). If a R&F unit would 'disperse' into a skirmish LOOK, and then are allowed to spread out one inch thin along the table edge just as not to bump off, then at least some models are not going as fast as possible as directly possible. So IF there is a rule that specifically says they become skirmishers, they actually, and practically should still remain in the R&F formation - but COUNT AS skirmishers.
In the end, if I want to deploy my REAL skirmishers, I am allowed to place them next to eachother AS IF they were in R&F formation, am I not? Why can't fleeing R&F units that have become skirmishers not also do the same?

And then: COME ONE! Use your brains, be a sport, and just remove the &*^$# unit from the table!

EDIT: but as theunwantedbeing already figured out: they don't skirmish!