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jamesterjlrb
21-09-2009, 17:26
Please note that there is an updated version of this list further down the thread. Please do not rate this one any longer.

This army is mainly based around skull pass with a few additions.

C+C appreciated.

Lords

Thorek Ironbrow 505

(The cool guy with the big anvil, who on the roll of a 3+ (which he can reroll) can among other things, every turn, dish out 2D6 magical strength 4 attacks on D3 units all of whom move at half distance the next turn)

Heroes

Dragon Slayer, Master rune of Skalf Blackhammer 125

(The rune that augments his strength till he can wound on the roll of a 2+)


Thane, BSB, Master Rune of Valaya, Rune of Courage, Rune of Guarding 250

(Adds +2 to all dispel rolls and dispels remains in play within 12", Bearer and unit immune from fear and terror, 5+ ward save)

Core

15 Warriors, full command, great weapons, shields 190

15 Longbeards, full command, great weapons, shields, Runic standard w/ master rune of Grungi 285

(All units within 6" get 5+ ward against missiles and magic missiles)


10 Thunderers, Full command, Champion has brace of pistols 175

Special

8 Miners, Full command, Blasting charges, steam drill 168

Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Fortune, Rune of reloading 160

( Can fire every turn as long as it's got one crew,even if misfired, once per game can turn a misfire result into a can't fire this turn only, Can reroll scatter if misfire, basically will fire every turn)

10 Slayers, Standard, Musician, 1 Giant Slayer 143

2001 pts

Malorian
21-09-2009, 18:00
Here's some thoughts:

-Thorek... he's just plain cheese and you'll start finding it hard to find people that want to play against you. I would drop him down to a regular rune lord on anvil and make him your own build.

-Dragon slayer, the rune is useless. With rune axes and using the great weapon version he will be wounding on a 2+ anyway. Keep him cheap as 50 for a unbreakable throw away unit is a steal.

-BSB, if you have a runic banner you can't have any other runic items. With a rune lord on an anvil (7 DD) I don't think you need the banner anyway.

-Core, why all the full command? Looks? Just because those are the models you have doesn't mean you have to use them and waste points. Also warriors are best used for static res so drop the GWs and increase the size of the unit.

-Miners, again spending points on upgrades you don't need, especially in such a smal unit.

-Cannon, just stick with forging.

-Slayers... these guys really aren't that good but if you like them then go for it.

lcfr
21-09-2009, 18:12
OK so below are my comments, hopefully it'll explain why I rated the army to be in need of a rehaul.

Thorek Ironbrow 505

I can't express enough how much I hate special characters. Don't worry, this didn't factor into my reasoning :p

In all seriousness...most efficient AoD Runelord I suppose, so if your crew is cool w/SCs then so far so good.

Dragon Slayer, Master rune of Skalf Blackhammer 125

MRSkalf Blackhammer is overpriced imo...you can get 2x RCleaving and RMight and save 10pts or go w/1x RCleaving and RMight and for 35pts less you'll mostly be wounding on 2s rather than all the time.

Problem w/runing up a Dragonslayer is that he fulfills his role just fine at a base 50pts. If you do need to arm him, keep it cheap since if he winds up in cc he is almost destined to meet death.

Thane, BSB, Master Rune of Valaya, Rune of Courage, Rune of Guarding 250

Too many points, and too weak. Your BSB is more important to your army than the General and, imo, needs runic armour to survive to pass on the benefits of re-rollable break tests. 250pts w/only a 4+AS and 5+ ward still leaves him more vulnerable than he should be against the enemy....and any opponent worth his salt will throw some weight aagainst this guy to earn 350VPs and kill the benefits of your banner.

+2 to dispel is also a little over the top for an army that already has 7DD. The MRValaya tackles the problem of not having any dispel scrolls but is a much too expensive way to do it (one of Thorek's weaknesses is his lack of scrolls...but at the same time it'd just be too much to field a runesmith scroll caddy in addition to a runelord imo). If you must give your BSB a runic banner then keep the RGuarding and lose the MRValaya for something cheaper like magic res. Overall I strongly believe you should dump it for runic armour on your BSB and the savings of nearly 100pts.

15 Warriors, full command, great weapons, shields 190

15 Longbeards, full command, great weapons, shields, Runic standard w/ master rune of Grungi 285

Drop the GWs. Increase both units to at least 20 strong. Dwarf units generally don't win combat from kills but rather from static combat res (i.e. rank bonuses, outnumbering, banner). No dwarf unit is really geared to rack up tons of kills, least of all Warriors...right now these units neither have the killpower necessary to win combats w/active CR nor the size to win w/static CR.


10 Thunderers, Full command, Champion has brace of pistols 175

Missile units need shields, not full commands. Your missile units, even w/shields, will not survive long against a determined enemy and so you're more often than not giving away an extra 100VPs when you add a standard. The Vet doesn't really need a brace of pistols and the extra long distance shot of a handgun will serve you better. Shields are the cheapest and most effective way of giving them some more staying power in cc w/out risking the extra 100VPs of an easily won banner.

8 Miners, Full command, Blasting charges, steam drill 168

8 miners w/out any add-ons cost half the price of this unit and will achieve just as much...aside from possibly arriving right away on the second turn, which is not worth a points increase of 100%. There are only 8 of these guys so you need to wield them wisely...hunt warmachines, claim tablequarters, possibly come to the last-minute aid of any of your units close to the table edge...but that's it! They can't take on a unit by themselves and so don't need the full complement of banner, musician, and prospector (arguably they don't need any of these additions). Blasting charges are pretty situational as well.

Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Fortune, Rune of reloading 160

RForging means you don't need RFortune...you will rarely, if ever, misfire. RReloading should be secondary to RBurning, which is infinitely more useful because of the Regenerating or Flammable nasties that are out there.

10 Slayers, Standard, Musician, 1 Giant Slayer 143

Wasted full command again. 10 Slayers face the same dilemma as your other 2 combat blocks....too small to win combats! These guys are best at tarpitting the enemy because they're Unbreakable...they will hardly ever win combats w/or w/out a banner and so it makes no sense to give them one.

Overall the only well put-together selection in your list is Thorek, imo (and I hate his guts). Your units suffer from one of two problems: either they are given the full complement of bonuses and become waaaay overpriced for what they bring to the table (ex. cannon, miners, thunderers, slayers inc. dragonslayer, and BSB) or, in the case of your combat blocks, being too small to be successful in cc.

I'd recommend that you shed all the unnecessary weight and first and foremost beef up your Longbeards and Warriors; this will at least give them a fighting chance and they will now also fulfill some kind of role in your army.

Then, ask yourself what your typical plan will be and how you hope to achieve it and base your selections on that...

jamesterjlrb
21-09-2009, 19:57
I see where you're both coming from. Please consider this is my first serious fantasy army but i'm going to take thes things in mind and will hopefull post a revised edition some time this week. All those points savings mean more cannons!:D

jamesterjlrb
22-09-2009, 18:05
Having taken your advice on board i've made some changes. You may note that their are some "unecessary" command models knocking about but these were literally only added in for lack of other things to spend 30 points on.

Lords
Thorek Ironbrow 505

Heroes

Dragon Slayer, 2 runes of cleaving, 1 rune of might 115

Thane, BSB, Runic armour w/Rune of shielding, Rune of stone, Runic talisman w/ Master rune of spite 165

Core

19 Warriors w/ champ, standard, shields 191

10 Longbeards w/ champ and standard 190

10 Thunderers Full command, Champ has 2 pistols

Special

8 miners w/champ 98

Cannon, Rune of burning, Rune of Forging, Rune of Reloading 140

Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Reloading, Rune of Fortune 160

Rare

Flame Cannon 140

Organ Gun 120

Malorian
22-09-2009, 18:44
Ok I'll ignore that the fact that you didn't take much of my advice and stick to one point:

What would you rather have:
-Dragon Slayer, 2 runes of cleaving, 1 rune of might 115
or
-2 dragon slayers who can just use great weapons to have +2 str rather than needing runes of cleaving

Please stop wasting points on this guy and reread the slayer rules.

jamesterjlrb
22-09-2009, 18:53
First of all the slayer rules only let you get to str6 including great weapon. Second of all i don't have any more hero options, third i can quite happily charge a dragon and knock a few wounds off.

Malorian
22-09-2009, 19:02
The two for one was a comment on point effectiveness.

Your str will equal his toughness (wound on 4+) and then with the great weapon you will wound the dragon on a 2+ anyway.

Now for the kicker... you aren't going to be charging dragons! Dragons can fly... dwarfs even with the anvil can only go 12 inches... it's doesn't work. In fact the dragon will charge you, eat the free 115 points you left him, and then continue on into something else. That is if he hasn't shot the lone model yet...

If you are really worried about dragons then take a master engineer (still cheaper than your expensive dragon slayer) and then put him with your cannon to do D6 wounds.

Slayers do not work in a dwarf army like their fluff say they do, they are best used as cheap (50 points) throw away units to tie up big blocks and keep them away from your lines, or as cheap (once again kept at 50 points) guards for your warmachines.

Dwarfs are an elite army as it is, don't make it worse by wasting points.

jamesterjlrb
22-09-2009, 19:10
If you read the slayer rules the increase includes the great weapon bonus. It even shows an example of him attacking a str 6 creature and wounding on 4+. The rule cannot augment his strength beyond 6.

Perhaps actually killing a dragon is a bit much but i can charge a unit like orcs etc where his size means i have to kill two to stop attacks back and even though i'll lose static combat res i'm unbreakable.

lcfr
22-09-2009, 19:12
Slight improvement but overall still lots of problems. Thorek is really problematic at 2k because he takes up a quarter of the army on his own...I would strongly advise a non-SC runelord like Malorian suggested.

Dragon Slayer, 2 runes of cleaving, 1 rune of might 115

I mentioned this runic combo more to show how cruddy the MRSkalf Blackhammer is than anything else. He is just fine naked.

Thane, BSB, Runic armour w/Rune of shielding, Rune of stone, Runic talisman w/ Master rune of spite 165

He'll be in a unit so he doesn't need RShielding. RPreservation is the way to go and MRGromril (although I can't recall if Thorek's armour already utilises this...if so just drop RShielding for RPres).

19 Warriors w/ champ, standard, shields 191

Still not enough in my books. Even w/a character all it takes is one wound before they get into combat to eliminate a rank bonus.

10 Longbeards w/ champ and standard 190

Still too small. There's no way a unit of ten Thunderers deserves a full command more than these guys deserve immunity to fear and terror.

10 Thunderers Full command, Champ has 2 pistols

FC and no shields?

8 miners w/champ 98

10pts are being wasted here.

Cannon, Rune of burning, Rune of Forging, Rune of Reloading 140

Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Reloading, Rune of Fortune 160

These cannons are costing nearly twice as much as they would naked and there's no way that what they'll do on the battlefield can be justified by these points. To put things in perspective: 120pts could buy you ten more Longbeards for that tiny unit or a unit of quarrelers armed w/shields. A pair of BTs would probably be better than a second cannon, but that's just personal preference....the point that needs to be taken into account is that these machines have way too many runes spent on them. Each of them can get on just fine w/the RForging and one w/RBurning.

Flame Cannon 140

Flame Cannon is very situational and many would argue it is not worth its points....an Organ Gun will do more damage gun and a Gyrocopter brings more to the table...the Flame Cannon really has a hard time justifying a Rare slot unless your opponent runs a goblin army.

Some of the changes you made are in the right direction but overall it seems your still really reluctant to give up the aspects that are obviously the most problematic, i.e. Thorek, overpriced Dragonslayer, command options that shouldn't be, and too many warmachine runes. So far I would not change my vote. :(

lcfr
22-09-2009, 19:14
If you read the slayer rules the increase includes the great weapon bonus. It even shows an example of him attacking a str 6 creature and wounding on 4+. The rule cannot augment his strength beyond 6.

Perhaps actually killing a dragon is a bit much but i can charge a unit like orcs etc where his size means i have to kill two to stop attacks back and even though i'll lose static combat res i'm unbreakable.

I think you're still missing the point...your slayer won't be charging anything, and if he does one way or the other you've lost 115pts when you could've lost only 50 for the same results.

Malorian
22-09-2009, 19:14
I'll have to check my book on that once I'm home, but in any case it still doesn't make him worth while (it even makes him less so).

He can't do the job you are trying to make him to, and in doing so are just wasting points. The best thing to do is either drop him or reduce him.

There were a set of battle reports a while ago that had 3 dragon slayers being used. All with no upgrades. He had quite a bit of success in using them as cheap throw away units who were just there to tie things up.

jamesterjlrb
22-09-2009, 19:40
Cool taking it all on board will have a new list tomorrow but i'm afraid i am pretty keen to keep Thorek

jamesterjlrb
24-09-2009, 19:54
Sorry not as soon as i hoped but here it is. I hope i've taken most of your feedback on board and i'm sorry for things i've chosen not to do, sometimes foreconomy of money, and sometimes because at the end of the day this is an army i want to enjoy playing with.

Lords
Thorek Ironbrow 505

Heroes

Dragon Slayer 50

Thane, BSB, Runic armour w/Rune of preservation, Rune of stone, Runic talisman w/ Master rune of spite 155

Core

29 Warriors w/ champ, standard, shields 281

10 Longbeards w/ full command, shields, rune of courage 175

10 Thunderers Champ and Musician, Champ has 2 pistols, shields 165

Special

8 miners 88

Cannon, Rune of burning, Rune of Forging 130

Cannon, Rune of Forging 125

Bolt thrower, engineer, Rune of Burning 65
Rare

Gyrocopter 140

Organ Gun 120

1999pts

lcfr
24-09-2009, 22:46
Alright...I think now we're getting somewhere. PS. (and this goes for future lists posted too) it's generally a good idea to note what you will and will not be willing to do w/your list, at least insofar as the 'big features' of the list are concerned, ex. not dropping Thorek Ironbrow. A lot of players post lists with Ironbreakers instead of Hammerers and then get plowed w/responses that go something like "Hammerererers are teh doomzors get them", when the fact is they don't want to shell out another $100 for a new unit, etc. So if I (Grungni forbid) recommend that you run 4 Grudge Throwers you should probably tell me that you don't have 4 and aren't willing to buy any more.

Thane, BSB, Runic armour w/Rune of preservation, Rune of stone, Runic talisman w/ Master rune of spite 155

Looks good. I prefer giving mine the MRGromril and RCleaving in lieu of the MRSpite, but I realize this isn't an option for you on account of Thorek's armour (right?).

29 Warriors w/ champ, standard, shields 281

Too many now :p Well, I suppose you could keep 'em if you have the points. But 25 is enough imo. They should probably also have a Musician. 5 measly points can sometimes make a big difference, especially against Fear or Terror causers.

10 Longbeards w/ champ and standard, shields, rune of courage 175

Still too few! Remember: They are essentially Warriors w/a higher WS and S (and w/only 5/6 attacks their S is not vital to them winning combats). I run 20 LBs (and 23 Warriors, comparatively), and if I had some more points to play with I'd add at least another one or two to the unit.

10 Thunderers Champ and Musician, Champ has 2 pistols, shields 165

You can easily shed 15pts here by losing the Champ and Mus. If you're strapped for models just place them in the back rank, make sure they're the first casualties removed, turn 'em backwards, and let your opponent know they're just RnF...that oughtta do it :p

Cannon, Rune of Forging 125

A pair of BTs to go w/your lone one would be a better investment imo; you really are relying on your warmachines to do the heavy lifting for you so the more the merrier...one flaming cannon will suffice to knock out Treejerks and take a chunk out of Hydras...3 BTs either mopup the big uglies or focus fire on hard units like Chaos/Blood Knights and Black Guard/Grave Guard, etc. Two naked BTs w/engineers will cost the same as one RForging Cannon and can do nearly as much damage as a Cannon can (and about as reliably imo).

Bolt thrower, engineer, Rune of Burning 65

Gyrocopter 120

Cost is off here.

Your priority needs to be upping the size of the Longbeards unit. If the enemy hits your line right now the Warriors are your only chance of surviving, accompanied by a Thane who, in the hurt department, is a bit lame w/only 3 S4 attacks.

Also, your list is effectively now a Thorek Gunline...not quite as extreme as it could be, but it's close imo. Your whole plan is hinging on Thorek (and the Gyro/maybe Miners) march-blocking the hell out of the advancing army and blasting them w/warmachines/thunderers. Most Dwarf players will tell you now that this is probably not the most enjoyable list to play as or against, but that's just my 2 cents. Good luck!

jamesterjlrb
25-09-2009, 13:26
TBH i'm going to keep it more or less as is. I will put in some more longbeards as i saw a GW article where a guy had silver shields for warriors and gold for longbeards where as i had been planning to use metal models so i will up them to a unit of 15 or 20 and prob drop bolt thrower cause it's expensive especially if i have to buy an engineer model. I'm keeping the musician in the thunderers so i can flee as a charge reaction if necessary and then it'll be easir to reform and so there is no banner as i'd lose it so it wouldn't do anything except look pretty. For those reasons i'll prob drop the champ as well. I'll see about losing some warriors. Don't know yet. Depends on points and whether i can fit another cannon in :evilgrin:. Might drop rune of preservation for an offensive rune on the thane. Thanks anyway for all the helpful advice. Might put another draft up soon.

jamesterjlrb
26-09-2009, 12:28
Here is the modified list;

Lords
Thorek Ironbrow 505

Heroes

Dragon Slayer 50

Thane, BSB, Runic armour w/Rune of stone, Runic talisman w/ Master rune of spite Runic Weapon w/rune of cleaving 160

Core

23 Warriors w/ Full command, shields 232

20 Longbeards w/ full command, shields, rune of courage 295

10 Thunderers w/ Musician, shields 155

Special

8 miners 88

Cannon, Rune of burning, Rune of Forging 130

Cannon, Rune of Forging 125

Rare

Gyrocopter 140

Organ Gun 120

2000pts

lcfr
26-09-2009, 15:50
All things considered, it's much better! There aren't really any more changes I could suggest that would keep the flavor of the list, so as far as it's concerned you've got yourself a winner now. I like 1x cannon and 2x BTs myself, but what warmachines you roll with doesn't really change the abc's of the list, so good job!

Good luck, tell us how it works out!

jamesterjlrb
26-09-2009, 20:51
Cheers stay subscribed because i have no particular intention to revisit this thread until i get the army in the new year (unless someone else does) so thanks and you'll get a nice e-mail then.