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PeG
21-09-2009, 19:11
I have a 1k game with WoC against HE coming up and my opponent have hinted that he is bringing not one but two dragons. Any suggestions about what to bring would be welcome. I was considering my competitive list with 2 units of knights, 2 units of horsemen, 2 units of dogs + 2 sorcerers but I dont see it doing well against dual dragons.

Drachen_Jager
21-09-2009, 19:15
1k with two dragons??? Is that even possible? If it's possible it's brutally waacy.

I don't think you have any realistic options for dealing with 2 dragons at 1k but I don't think it's possible for him to build a legal list with 2 dragons at 1k either. Your best bet would probably be to max out on Tzeench sorcerers on disks and take 2 units of marauder horsemen and just play points denial, run away as much as possible and snipe with magic. As long as you stay outside 20" he can't do much.

Oh, and take a rending sword on one mage, RAW says it will allow you re-roll rolls to wound from magic attacks and this is beardy but not quite as bad as your opponent.

Nathangonmad
21-09-2009, 19:18
Thats illegal :P

Kalec
21-09-2009, 19:48
Your friend is illiterate.

PeG
21-09-2009, 20:00
From the replies I assume that you cant get two dragons into a list. How is it not possible? Does his dragons take character slots as ours do? Point wise I guess it works with dragon mages. Maybe he is just trying to scare me but to make sure we play it right I would like to be able to point in his army book.

Avian
21-09-2009, 20:28
Each rider is either a Hero or a Lord and each Dragon is a Hero. Thus to have two Dragons you would need either four Hero slots or one Lord and three Heroes, neither of which is possible below 2k.

Roark
22-09-2009, 11:09
Clearly your friend is having a lend of you...

Seabo
22-09-2009, 11:53
Has to be a DragonMage at 1k as he is the only hero that can have a dragon..
They were all the hype when the HE book first came out but now I haven't seen one in quite a long time.
He is pretty wimpy and the Sun Dragon is meh as far as dragons go. Pretty much any reasonably geared WoC hero or any other army would eat him for lunch.
Not to mention the fact that he is 350 without any upgrades....

The Red Scourge
22-09-2009, 11:57
you guys are forgetting about the DoW elf dragon :)

So he can have that and a dragon mage.

Probably not much else :)

Avian
22-09-2009, 11:59
That also counts as two Hero choices (plus a Rare), so still illegal. :p

zerachiel
23-09-2009, 04:22
The Dragon Mage will die to a unit of Knights so long as you don't have a Champion. Banner of Rage or Mark of Khorne is recommended to maximize your odds. The Mage on top is a wimpy T3 elf with no saves, and the Sun Dragon is about as hard to take down as a Hydra (one more Toughness, but only 5+ AS so no saves when you hit with Knights). You can probably even shoot it down with enough Tzeentchian Wizards (the Dragon Mage, at least), and he'll likely just fly around breathing on you and throwing Fireballs until he can get a favorable rear charge in a combat. With that in mind, holding a unit of Knights back a bit behind the lines can dissuade him from getting too close.

Another thing you can try is to just circle the Dragon with units of Marauder Horsemen with Throwing Axes. Always stay out of his vision, and just toss Axes at him. With a +1 to Hit and S4 you just might knock the Mage off the Dragon.

Oberon
23-09-2009, 10:07
Rear charge against said knights might not be _that_ favourable ;) Lesson for all: never charge flesh hounds/chaos knights from behind, always from the side. +1 CR and not being hit back after one kill is much better than +2CR and the rest 4 knights striking you back.

Scythe
23-09-2009, 10:56
Like said, in 1k the worst you can face is a single sun dragon with dragonmage, and those aren't too bad at all. The rider is terribly vulnerable to practically anything with only 2 T3 wounds, no armour, and limited ward options. The dragon itself is more like an upgraded griffon or maticore with an extra wound and an extra point of T. Offensive wise, 4 S5 attacks are not going to achieve that much, especially not against the heavily armoured WoC units.

Anyway, knights will do well (even with a side charge, the dragon is probably not going to win against a unit with banner, musician and possibly war banner; it simply lacks hitting power). Horsemen with ranged weaponry can wear down the dragon, and are very dangerous to the mage on top of it. Same goes for mobile sorcery, though the HE player probably has some dispel power available. You might concider a hellcannon, though that is a bit of a gamble, and a huge attractive target itself, not to mention expensive. But I recon your 'standard' competive list' will perform fairly well against a sun dragon.

zerachiel
23-09-2009, 20:12
Like said, in 1k the worst you can face is a single sun dragon with dragonmage, and those aren't too bad at all. The rider is terribly vulnerable to practically anything with only 2 T3 wounds, no armour, and limited ward options. The dragon itself is more like an upgraded griffon or maticore with an extra wound and an extra point of T. Offensive wise, 4 S5 attacks are not going to achieve that much, especially not against the heavily armoured WoC units.

Anyway, knights will do well (even with a side charge, the dragon is probably not going to win against a unit with banner, musician and possibly war banner; it simply lacks hitting power). Horsemen with ranged weaponry can wear down the dragon, and are very dangerous to the mage on top of it. Same goes for mobile sorcery, though the HE player probably has some dispel power available. You might concider a hellcannon, though that is a bit of a gamble, and a huge attractive target itself, not to mention expensive. But I recon your 'standard' competive list' will perform fairly well against a sun dragon.

On the side, with the Mage's Flaming Sword of Rhuin, the Dragon will be able to chew through the Knights pretty quickly, as 3 auto-hitting S5 attacks in addition to the Dragon's 4 will at the very least stop you from hitting back, and if 2 Knights fall you lose combat (standard+outnumber < flank+2kills). Getting hit in the flank with cavalry's never a good idea, but I'm just stating that if you want to bait a Dragon, you could use much less dangerous methods than presenting it your Knights' flank.

Tarian
23-09-2009, 20:15
Forgeworld's Emperor Fire Dragon only counts as 2 rares in a HE army... (Though I somehow doubt it fits in a 1k list)

Yeah, your characters will eat the Sun Dragon... and his little mage too.

PeG
23-09-2009, 20:23
Thanks, so as long as I dispel the flaming sword I guess I will do fine then :)

zerachiel
23-09-2009, 21:12
Thanks, so as long as I dispel the flaming sword I guess I will do fine then :)

And aim at least half your attacks at the mage in the first round to remove him and get yourself some VP and CR. Also, never field Champions in Knights units, or you'll get challenged.

That's 1/3 of his points in 1000 points, so you'll do just fine.

PeG
23-09-2009, 21:16
I never have champions anywhere unless I also have characters in the unit that I want to protect.

Drachen_Jager
23-09-2009, 21:57
Let us know how it turns out, I'm curious to hear about the beat-down.

Of course if your friend is a tricksy one he might have just been psyching you out while he pulls out a completely different list.

inq.serge
23-09-2009, 22:54
That also counts as two Hero choices (plus a Rare), so still illegal. :p

???

Dragon mage= 2 x hero
Asarnil= 2x rare (in non dow, 1 hero 1 rare in dow).

HE has 2 rare slots in 1000pts.

Fully legal.

Whip of subversion+helm of many eyes+ flying mount= If you either wound the rider or the dragon (or even better; both) before they attack you, then they have to attack their own mount/rider.

Scythe
24-09-2009, 11:29
On the side, with the Mage's Flaming Sword of Rhuin, the Dragon will be able to chew through the Knights pretty quickly, as 3 auto-hitting S5 attacks in addition to the Dragon's 4 will at the very least stop you from hitting back, and if 2 Knights fall you lose combat (standard+outnumber < flank+2kills). Getting hit in the flank with cavalry's never a good idea, but I'm just stating that if you want to bait a Dragon, you could use much less dangerous methods than presenting it your Knights' flank.

I never said you should encourage getting your knights charged in the flank, merely that it is no guaranteed victory for the dragon mage, not by a long shot. ;)

Depending on getting a spell of after you have charged, causing enough kills, the target unit not using a war banner, failing a subsequent break test AND being charged in the flanks are a lot of if's.

rsowell
26-09-2009, 02:01
I understand why this thread went the way it did(discussing legal or illegal list his friend may have made), but I would like to know how to deal with dragons myself with a WoC list. For example my friend is going to be running the main dark elf guy on the special dragon(malaketh?).

After doing some theory crafting I found that a Tzeench Lord on disk with chaos rune sword could kill the dark elf most of the time on the charge. This is not including the dragon, but the dragon is not really what I'm worried about; the combo is. Although I seriously doubt either us letting a unit that can fly get charged.

Would this list be able to stand up to most riders/dragons?
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222113

Oberon
26-09-2009, 22:15
You really should be worried about the dragon, if you are going to fight the pair in CC. The dragon can attack too, and it does it well. And no, neither of you is going to get an easy charge at another if the other does not want to (WoC has no way to stop the beast from moving, the same for DE, if the mount is shot down then maybe...).

I'd aim dragon ogres (same problem as with flying mounts, really. Show the rear, it might help) or hellcannons at it, gateway might also work (like it does on so many other things...). You don't seem to have the first two, so gateway for the win or something. You might want to change the banners of MoK knights to musicians, more useful and cheaper. MoN knights might want a standard bearer and musician, just the musician for marauder horsemen, and roar in there somewhere (disc being the best place)...

Some very clever (and obvious) trap like showing the rear of big juicy unit of knights for the dragon, and then flanking with other knights could work, but that again needs cooperation of the opponent to work...

lcfr
26-09-2009, 23:46
A unit of frenzied knights will tear up a baby dragon, even if it gets the charge on them I reckon, which shouldn't happen because then your opponent's mage would be turned into pudding.

W/regards to Asarnil...are the Regiments of Renown rules still even legal? Either way, he's just a naked noble isn't he, kind of a pushover no? Bring Drogres to hack the dragon!

The funny thing is that even if this whole 'double dragon' (I'm thinking of a terrible movie iirc) scheme materializes 1) there won't be much else to the army at 1k, 2) you'll actually be the one to get the last laugh at your opponent when you run 2 units of 10 naked marauders for core and then plop down as many knights and drogres as you can squeeze!

Oberon
26-09-2009, 23:49
As long as the knights show their rear or front instead of the flank to the dragon, there is a fighting chance. MoN gives some survivability (non-star dragons hit 4+ instead of 3+), and do NOT take champions (if you do, even a single wound means you don't fight back...).

PeG
27-09-2009, 20:19
and since you are playing DE the dragon is probably the softest target since the T3 elf usually comes with pendant.

Except for magic I have a hard time seeing a good way for WoC to take out dragons. Fortunately we have some magic that can either kill it or make it move to a spot on the table that offers a flank/rear charge.

Drachen_Jager
28-09-2009, 23:05
Warhounds are the best way to deal with a dragon, if you have enough in your list you can protect any vulnerable spots and make it very difficult for him to get the flank/rear charge he needs to win combats vs hardened warriors. Sure some will flee in terror but at 30 points a unit you can afford to double bag.

Avian
29-09-2009, 07:45
Asarnil= 2x rare (in non dow, 1 hero 1 rare in dow).
Nope.

DoW: Hero + Rare
Others: Hero + Hero + Rare

See the Regiments of Renown PDF