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Good Guy
22-09-2009, 06:53
Could the modern day US survive an attack by a company of Space Marines?
How difficult or easy would it be for them to take over the country? What are your thoughts on this subject?

The Red Pilgrim
22-09-2009, 06:56
They would drop orbital bombardments on every vital military holding and intelligence agency instantly nullifying any "forces" we have.

Or they'd simply drop a world-eater, and kill the planet whole-sale.

There is no escape.. only death..

genestealer_baldric
22-09-2009, 06:57
they wouldnt take the army on but strike at surgical location to inhibit the armed responses.

zendral
22-09-2009, 07:06
assuming they have their fleets n' such....no....the planet loses.

Nathangonmad
22-09-2009, 07:07
A company? Are you barking bad? They'd be utterly crushed even nuking them wouldn't work space marines can survive much worse (Istan V drop site massacre, allot of the space marines survived the planet being bloody virus bombed.)

A company is just too powerful the orbital bombardment would take out majority of the population of the area they were going to land in, from there it'd be a blitz campain with the space marines utterly crushing ANY and ALL resistance.

Maybe and just MAYBE the US could stop a single space marine (however after reading Brotherhood of the Snake I have my doubts)

Reflex
22-09-2009, 07:31
I welcome our newly formed friendly space marines and would willingly serve them as my new masters.

:D

Bloodknight
22-09-2009, 07:47
Maybe and just MAYBE the US could stop a single space marine (however after reading Brotherhood of the Snake I have my doubts)

Just ignore that book, please. Let's just say that 3000 Dark Eldar should normally carry roughly 100 Dark Lances/blasters per enemy Space Marine which should kill a Movie Marine about 20 times per turn.

And of course nuking them would work ;)

Good Guy
22-09-2009, 07:56
Ok, lets forget the possibility of orbital bombardment. I agree that the planet would have no chance against such an advantage. For arguments sake, just assume it's thunderhawk gunships only that deploy troops and vehicles.

AndrewGPaul
22-09-2009, 07:58
It depends, I suppose. If the Marines are daft enough to drop, en masse into the middle of nowhere, the Air Force could blow them all up. If, as is more likely, a couple of squads each drop into the White House grounds, the Capitol, the Pentagon, and Thunderhawk strikes and orbital bombardment deals with domestic military bases and naval battle groups, then it'll be much more difficult.

What sort of distances can Terminators teleport through rock? drop a squad into Cheyenne mountain, if anything important still goes on there.

This all assumes the Marines know what they're looking for, right enough. Perhaps Robert Gates is a Callidus Assassin? :)

Lothlanathorian
22-09-2009, 08:03
I welcome our newly formed friendly space marines and would willingly serve them as my new masters.

:D

What this guy said.

genestealer_baldric
22-09-2009, 08:04
Lets face it they would try to be diplomatic 1st there are much scarer races out there if we caught there eye.

and hey there is great AA stuff around tunderhawks may be not have a smooth time of it.

AndrewGPaul
22-09-2009, 08:06
That's what bombardment cannon are for. :)

madprophet
22-09-2009, 08:09
Well, assuming the modern U.S. military is more or less equal to the Imperial Guard and in real terms a Space Marine is twice as about twice to three times as effective as a Guardsman, the Space Marines would be overwhelmed by the shear number of U.S. troops available.

Ignoring game statistics and sticking to fluff (a.k.a. Movie Marines) a Marine is equivalent to 10 ordinary troopers - even assuming the troopers in question are Gaunt's Ghosts - a Marine at best is worth 100 American regulars. Given that ratio, a company of Marines is the equivalent of 10,000 American regulars.

That means an U.S. independent brigade is roughly a match for a company of Marines. Currently the U.S. Army can field several divisions - not including reservists, state militia and NATO allies obliged to aid the U.S. in the case of such an invasion.

It would take more than a single company of Marines to take out the U.S.

genestealer_baldric
22-09-2009, 08:15
Well, assuming the modern U.S. military is more or less equal to the Imperial Guard and in real terms a Space Marine is twice as about twice to three times as effective as a Guardsman, the Space Marines would be overwhelmed by the shear number of U.S. troops available.

Ignoring game statistics and sticking to fluff (a.k.a. Movie Marines) a Marine is equivalent to 10 ordinary troopers - even assuming the troopers in question are Gaunt's Ghosts - a Marine at best is worth 100 American regulars. Given that ratio, a company of Marines is the equivalent of 10,000 American regulars.

That means an U.S. independent brigade is roughly a match for a company of Marines. Currently the U.S. Army can field several divisions - not including reservists, state militia and NATO allies obliged to aid the U.S. in the case of such an invasion.

It would take more than a single company of Marines to take out the U.S.

yeah thats assuming that they fight on a open battlefeild. They would act like SF attaking important areas then withdrawing before the us can bring its might to bear. IF the marines were stupid enough to get stuck in a protacted firefight with a whole bridage then yes they would loose.

Then they can withdraw to relative saftey in space and the US wouldnt easily be able to strike back. And if things go realy bad for them they can allways call backup.

gunners
22-09-2009, 08:22
Disagree... The sheer amount of fire power the Marines brought with them would be enough to more than cripple any military force, on our earth. The strategy of having a couple of HUGE spaceship in orbit hitting whatever they please is just to much... Remember the missil shield never got created:D

The number statistic would only work if they got placed in a field where the y was to beef it out... but come on, that would, as much as i want to see it, be plain dumb...

perhaps if they entered China or India they could be "drowned" i people but not US or Europe-Russia for that matter.

Allen
22-09-2009, 08:25
Could the modern day US survive an attack by a company of Space Marines?
How difficult or easy would it be for them to take over the country? What are your thoughts on this subject?


DAY 1:

Some of the most technologically advanced nations detect a large object in our planet orbit. The object makes adjustment to its trajectory, so it's clearly not something natural. While the world is busy soiling the collective underwear, the Battle Barge commander sends a Thunderhawk to the UN building in New York. It's the closest thing we have at a global government, so they decide to speak with the UN assembly.

The Imperial ambassador and his Space Marine guards speaks in High Gothic. No one understands. They try with Low Gothic. No one understands that, too. With the help of a servitor programmed to translate their words in English, they explain their mission.

The so-called planet Earth is going to be welcomed back in the Imperium of Man. We're going to worship the Emperor of Mankind with any name and/or form approved by the Ministrorum, and we're going to gear our world's economy towards the goals planned by the Administratum. We're going to give to the Mechanicum every technology they request, and we're going to disband every single national armed force, in order to create a global Defence Force. After those dire words they leave, stating that they're going to wait in orbit until our world politicians call them back saying "ok" or "screw you".


DAY 2:

The world is in turmoil. Major religious figures speak against the Imperium of Man and the so-called Saviour of Mankind. Major political figures declare that joining a galaxy-spanning tyranny is not an option. Normal people are just terrified by the events and the possible outcomes.

DAY 3:

America strikes back. The US government answer first, declaring that the United States will never renounce wilfully at their independence. The European Parliament follows this example. Other nations simply wait, hoping for a constructive answer from the Imperium.

There's no transmission from the Battle Barge and the Imperium fleet in orbit. Minutes after the US and EU statements, the answer came in form of a series of terrifying orbital bombardments that wipe out from the maps Washington DC, Bruxelles and every single capital city of the founding members of the European Union. Dozens of millions die instantly; the US and the EU are crippled politically.

DAY 4:

US military officers try a disorganized retaliation. The fleet simply avoid the slow and clumsy nuclear missiles launched and, during the following 24 hours, destroy from orbit the silos and the most important military bases in North America. The Imperium envoy, using our satellite network, broadcast a transmission in English: Earth nations have to stop any kind of resistance, both military and political. Failure to comply with the request will cause a severe retaliation on a global scale.

The transmission is played by every TV station on the globe: the people need to know. The EU is de facto dead, and the single states are struggling to create an organized response. The moving masses of refugees disrupt the already delicate network of social and medical assistance points; plagues and famine hit the Old World; civil wars erupt in some areas, caused by social unrest, religious fanatics or political extremists.
The US are left without leaders and with a waning military force. Whole areas decide to "manage things by ourselves" and declare independence from the now defunct federal government.

DAY 5:

Other major powers like the Russian Federation and the People's Republic of China decide to organize a joint strike against the Imperium task force. The imperials this time does not use orbital barrages: they simply send squads of Space Marines planetside, surgically striking every single central node of political and military importance. In a matter of hours both nations are left effectively unharmed, but completely without guide.

DAY 12:

The world economy is irremediably compromised. Every kind of air traffic in intercepted and eliminated by the orbiting imperials; maritime trading routes are not secure, due to the Imperium space and air superiority. Fixed installations (parliaments, refineries, factories, military bases) are either destroyed or under constant threat of attack.
The technologically advanced nations are effectively out of the play. Without opposition the imperials land a couple of companies of Space Marines and several thousands of Imperial Guard regiments. The Imperium is welcomed by the population as "saviours": nobody want to remember that they are the cause of the millions of deaths. The Imperium brings troops, but brings also food, peace and some of the civilized behaviour that in a matter of days disappeared from the ravaged lands.
The only real opposition is organized in the less advanced countries, in the form of asymmetrical warfare.

grissom2006
22-09-2009, 08:32
Biggest thing with them once on the ground is going to be just how well the Power Armour copes with a modern bullet. Remember the fact that most bullets issued to a soldier are designed to create maximum tissue damage not Armour Piercing. So i'd be expecting a rather large number of snipers on my side if facing Marines. Also which Company gets used would be a factor as well or the Chapter even (Great Companies of the Space Wolves don't abide to the Codex and can number more than a 100). But being a surgical strike force i'd strike at the command structure and take it out even so far as to use them as a shield.

Next question is how well their tanks compared to ours would they shrug of most incoming fire?

AndrewGPaul
22-09-2009, 08:34
DAY 1:

Some of the most technologically advanced nations detect a large object in our planet orbit. The object makes adjustment to its trajectory, so it's clearly not something natural.

Make that "anyone with a telescope in the right hemisphere" and you'll be more accurate. :)

Damage,Inc.
22-09-2009, 08:38
Oh is it already time for this thread again?

Well, just make sure to wipe up the fanboi drool when it's all said and done...

Grimtuff
22-09-2009, 08:39
Please, just do a search. All of these threads end up as massive nerd vortexes between Americans and everyone else.

However i'm just going to sit back and enjoy this ride. :p

Damage,Inc.
22-09-2009, 08:45
Biggest thing with them once on the ground is going to be just how well the Power Armour copes with a modern bullet. Remember the fact that most bullets issued to a soldier are designed to create maximum tissue damage not Armour Piercing. So i'd be expecting a rather large number of snipers on my side if facing Marines. Also which Company gets used would be a factor as well or the Chapter even (Great Companies of the Space Wolves don't abide to the Codex and can number more than a 100). But being a surgical strike force i'd strike at the command structure and take it out even so far as to use them as a shield.

Next question is how well their tanks compared to ours would they shrug of most incoming fire?

1 word- M919. 25mm depleted uranium slugs. These things were blasting through the sides of T72s at 2000m in Desert Storm I.

.50 cal machineguns fire a range of bullets from AP to cut through light armor to API, to burn things once penetrated. These are useful against a wide range of vehicles. I'd say they are easily S5-6.

Things you don't have in the 41st millenia- guided missiles such as the TOWIIB or JAvelin. These use a "pop-up" attack to target the weakest armor on a vehicle and currently pwn anything built by humans.

Gyroscopic turrets that allow for accurate ranged fire while moving.40K tanks can barely move and shoot...

There are many, many more examples one could give to shot the plight of modern humanity would not be so simple as it seems. Pretty much the main things we couldn't deal with would be the orbital strikes and teleporting Terminators.

Damage,Inc.
22-09-2009, 08:49
Please, just do a search. All of these threads end up as massive nerd vortexes between Americans and everyone else.

However i'm just going to sit back and enjoy this ride. :p

I'm sure you meant vortices... mmm flavan.

Grimtuff
22-09-2009, 08:52
I'm sure you meant vortices... mmm flavan.

Both are acceptable plurals.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vortex ;)

Koryphaus
22-09-2009, 08:55
well thought out post

I think that the Earth resistance would go something like this, http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end). After all the arrival of the IoM is basically the end of the world.

Condottiere
22-09-2009, 08:57
Does our modern military technology and forces have a chance against an IoM Task Force? Then the answer must be no.

Could our military forces take down a company of Space Marines? Sure, depending on circumstances.

grissom2006
22-09-2009, 09:06
Damage Inc i don't need to be told about what the likes of a Tank Buster can fire i've removed the limbs from a person hit by one. Who say's they will take API's i wouldn't Gyroscopes in Tanks hardly a new thing been about Decades. SM Tanks fire more energy based weapons like LasCannon pretty save to say that firing these requires power to be taken away from the Drive of the Vehicle in order to fire.

AP rounds aren't standard issue to all combat units as the joy of AP round in some weapons is the jam them up. I'd also say that a variation and a much improved version of Chobham Armour would be employed by the SM.

Radium
22-09-2009, 09:19
.50 cal machineguns fire a range of bullets from AP to cut through light armor to API, to burn things once penetrated. These are useful against a wide range of vehicles. I'd say they are easily S5-6.

You mean like, heavy stubbers? Not really something a space marine should be afraid of.

If the space marines rain down in drop pods and deploy a couple of land raiders, nobody in the US will know what just hit them. Every command will have been terminated by the time the space marines commit to a 'normal' fight.

Also, it depends on the company. First company will totally destroy whatever the states can bring. A scout company would be a much more interesting fight, and something the US could probably even win.

pookie
22-09-2009, 09:20
and so the arguments begin :evilgrin:

the question was, can a company of SM Take on America, yeah sure, but all that would happen is the Americans get a bloody nose, and said SM Company is struck from the chapters roll call.

100 marines cannot take on a force with 300.000+ troops, regardless of tactics (they would struggle against a much smaller better equiped and trained Army).

If your talking about a SM Company, plus Armoured support, Fleet support etc, then thats a diffrent topic entirly! and can only ever end up in Fanboi arguments.

wonder how long before this is wasted!!!

grissom2006
22-09-2009, 09:31
wonder how long before this is wasted!!!

Your always so optimistic :p

Back to the Thread it's highly unlikely that a SM Company on it's own would meet with sucess. But the chances of a SM Company deploying minus any support slim to zero they don't engage on a planet without it least of all if they have to fight on their own.

Damage,Inc.
22-09-2009, 09:33
Both are acceptable plurals.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vortex ;)

Ah, yes. That was just my nerd-rage acting up again :)

Burnthem
22-09-2009, 09:36
Could our military forces take down a company of Space Marines? Sure, depending on circumstances.

This, and you can be sure that the Marines would avoid the worst circumstances like the plague. They'd never ever get into a straight fight on open ground, a combination of orbital bombardment, drop pod assaults and teleport attacks into key locations would literally cripple any countries military almost overnight. Given that the target country would also likely have absolutely no warning of the attack coming, i personally think that any ideas of successfully defending against said attack are hopeful in the extreme, and i'm not even a fanboi ;)

Damage,Inc.
22-09-2009, 09:54
Damage Inc i don't need to be told about what the likes of a Tank Buster can fire i've removed the limbs from a person hit by one.
As have I brother, after two tours in Iraq, but that's another topic for another time. :(



Who say's they will take API's i wouldn't API is pretty much a standard loadout round for the M2 .50. After the first few engagements with highly armored personnel I would imagine API'd be used commonplace.



Gyroscopes in Tanks hardly a new thing been about Decades.
Nope, not new... to us. The Imperium doesn't build tanks like that though, not ever Predators. Imperial Armor used to do a good job about outlining things like that and armor sizes. It's been made pretty clear throughot the background that the armored vehicles of the Imperium, with the Land Raider being a notable exception, are very, very basic machines much akin to what the world was fielding 60 years ago.



SM Tanks fire more energy based weapons like LasCannon pretty save to say that firing these requires power to be taken away from the Drive of the Vehicle in order to fire.

And the major downside of energy weapons such as lascannons? Direct fire only. Berm drills become a ***** as rounds cannot be lobbed or arched over terrain. For a lascannon to hit a target, it must see it. Not so for shells. Now the Imperial Guard would have a different story there...


AP rounds aren't standard issue to all combat units as the joy of AP round in some weapons is the jam them up.
I think what you're talking about is small arms AP arounds, such as 5.56mm. The "black tip" rounds were designed to be used in a higher pressure system such as the M249, not lowered pressured M4s, or at least as I understand it. We had a good bit of AP 5.56mm on my first tour and lots of guys delinked it and put it in our M4 magazines. Sure enough, it caused jam every time in the M4. The M249 however shot them with no problems.

AP rounds for other calibers are quite common. 7.62mm NATO AP rounds were 79% of what we received for our M240s and M14s, with 20% being tracer and the last 1% being other rounds. AP for 7.62x39 was quite common in Iraq as well- one of the reasons we upgraded to the ESAPI plate from the older SAPI. Now the 7.62mm rounds wouldn't be much of a worry for most power armor, I'd figure, considering we have plates now that stop it pretty effectively.


I'd also say that a variation and a much improved version of Chobham Armour would be employed by the SM. Again, Imperial Armor books have stated otherwise. DU is an unknown thing in the 41st millenium and most Imperial armor is made by layering steel like tanks in WWII, or the more advanced but harder to construct materials that Marine power amror is made from (forgot the name currently).


Heavy stubbers are weapons such as M249/M60/M240B. Heavy Bolters are more the equivelent of .50 cals.

Here's my basic interpretation of weapons, modern to Str. These aren't hard and fast or anything. Most of this is based on Necromunda stats.
M16/M4, 5.56mm - S3 AP5
9x19mm - S3
7.62x39 - S4
7.62x51mm, .308 - S4 AP5
12.7mm, .50 - S5 AP4
14.5mm - S6?
25mm - S7?
81mm AT Rockets, light missiles and such S8 AP3
TOW, 105mm arty -S9
155mm arty - S10

Dang, my nerd-rage gave in :)

AndrewGPaul
22-09-2009, 10:03
Going by descriptions, whatever the Imperium calls "rolled armour steel" is different from what we think it is - the descriptions of the hits Leman Russ tanks can survive are a testament to that.

Marine tanks use Adamantium and Ceramite, among other materials.

Mind you, the Marines wouldn't be invading unsupported; that's not how the Imperium does things. That Marine company and their strike cruiser will be arriving at the head of a load of navy transports with a few million Guard for invasion and garrison duty. The Marines' job will just be to blow up anything interesting in the opening waves.

RCgothic
22-09-2009, 10:06
A marine is maybe worth ten standard troops.

In my (probably flawed) judgement, modern armed forces perhaps have the equivalent of:
AV12
Sv5+
S9 Ordnance.
S8 krak missiles.
S7 Vehicle autocannons.
S5/6 heavy bolter/multilasers.
S3 autoguns.

So they're slightly weak on AT weaponry, particularly melta, Lascannon and S10 ordnance equivalents. That said, probably only Land Raiders are going to present a problem, but I do think we have weapons that can deal with that, such as wheeling out our S9 ordnance equivalents, eg MBT AP rounds.

In reverse, the marines are not going to have any problems slagging our tanks with lascannons and melta weaponry.

We also have absolutely no experience of fighting space marines, whilst the marines have centuries of combat experience with similar forces.

In a stand up fight, 1000 well equipped troops would have a chance against 100 marines, and we have far more than 1000 troops to throw at the problem.

But then no-one expects the marines to engage in a stand up fight.

If a terminator is worth maybe 50 regular guys, and say a corridor is wide enough for 2 Terminators to fire down. To equal that level of force application, you'd somehow need to get 100 troopers into the other end of the corridor. The amount of pressure the marines can apply to a particular point would be more than we would be capable of resisting. If the marines could succesfully destroy our command and control, and I'm sure they could, they wouldn't even have to defeat the vast majority of our armies.

pookie
22-09-2009, 10:29
Mind you, the Marines wouldn't be invading unsupported; that's not how the Imperium does things. That Marine company and their strike cruiser will be arriving at the head of a load of navy transports with a few million Guard for invasion and garrison duty. The Marines' job will just be to blow up anything interesting in the opening waves.

but the OP didnt stipulate the attacking force othe rthan saying a SM Company.

This is why these threads always end up with Nerd rage/Americans saying they wouldnt loose/rest of us rational people knowing it aint our country so lets have a sly pop at the Americans.... :D

@ Grissom2006 - im a glass half empty type guy :D

genestealer_baldric
22-09-2009, 10:33
in one of the grey knight books even there termintors were dragged down and killed by people with the same tech as darkages through weight of numbers etc.. so it would be possible.

they are except DE/ELDAR/TAU the only army from the 40k universe that we stand a chance to win against.

pookie
22-09-2009, 10:46
in one of the grey knight books even there termintors were dragged down and killed by people with the same tech as darkages through weight of numbers etc.. so it would be possible.

they are except DE/ELDAR/TAU the only army from the 40k universe that we stand a chance to win against.

why the E/DE/Tau, all are capable of beating us, especially either versionof Eldar, if anything the Eldar would probably fair better than Marines, due to there Tech, the DE would make us think that all aliens are Batshit demented slavers,a nd the Tau have better Tech than us.

AndrewGPaul
22-09-2009, 11:06
but the OP didnt stipulate the attacking force othe rthan saying a SM Company.

Yes; I was implying that the OP's scenario was "unrealistic" for that reason.

Pookie, are you saying the Tau would win because their technology is better than ours, but the Marines would not, despite their technology being generally superior to the Tau?

Gue'Vesa'Vre Kilo
22-09-2009, 11:08
This is rediculous! SM company taking America?? As soon as people acknoledge the existance of a Space Marine GW players will start setting up Chaos cults in their respective countries, and there is only one thing te IoM can do... Exterminatus.

On topic: USA don't stand a chance against a company (which is not just 1,000 marines)

AndrewGPaul
22-09-2009, 11:15
NO; a company is no "just 1,000 Marines"; it's one hundred. :) Plus drivers and pilots, I suppose - say 110-120, at full strength?

pookie
22-09-2009, 11:16
Yes; I was implying that the OP's scenario was "unrealistic" for that reason.

i maybe should have been clear, choose to qoute you, specifically because of what you said, i agree the Scenario is too unrealistic too.


Pookie, are you saying the Tau would win because their technology is better than ours, but the Marines would not, despite their technology being generally superior to the Tau?

erm, no but again maybe i wasnt clear, i do think that the Tau/both sorts of Eldar have better Tech than Us.

As better than Marines? well depends on how you view Marines and there very slow development if any of new weapons, the Tau innovate, where Marines dont, and if the tech currently isnt supperior unless eliminated the Tau will develop better tech, the same cant be said for Marines.

tho still dont think im being clear, god i feel Dence today :D

Philip S
22-09-2009, 11:29
The Imperial ambassador and his Space Marine guards speaks in High Gothic. No one understands. They try with Low Gothic. No one understands that, too. With the help of a servitor programmed to translate their words in English, they explain their mission.
Or: The Space Marines grabs various UN staff translators and fires a 'translation spike' into each of their skulls. The spike rapidly takes over the mind of the UN staff to create a translation servitor, and the Marines prop them all up in front of their mics. The Imperial ambassador activates his comm link and speaks. The new translator servitors simultaneously translate the words into English, and all other languages :D

Philip

genestealer_baldric
22-09-2009, 11:46
why the E/DE/Tau, all are capable of beating us, especially either versionof Eldar, if anything the Eldar would probably fair better than Marines, due to there Tech, the DE would make us think that all aliens are Batshit demented slavers,a nd the Tau have better Tech than us.

What i mean is Eldar dont need us or our resouces, DE are just to few in number and chaotic to take over a planet rather than slave runs. Tau Tech while is great they will try to convert us and maybe it would be a diplomatic envoys to join the greater good. Rather than the way the marines would approch intergation. And with no unified defence its every country for its self will seal the deal


Necrons > were doomed
Nids > very very doomed
Orks> almost certain doomed if in the way of a waaaagggghh
Demons> i dont think any of our guns use holy water except supersokers.
IG> full cruasade they have more soilders and better equipment. And no unified defence every country for its self will seal the deal
ADmech > titans realy realy do us in
choas > yeah greater demons etc... nxt to chaos marines
=][= > extermintus

Fobster
22-09-2009, 11:51
I'd imagine they would run out of ammo before they could kill even a decently sized regiment and would be killed by massed ranged smart bombs. 1000 marines in a chapter is sill fluff. Put even a full chapter on a continent the scale of the us and they'd achieve nothing.

Condottiere
22-09-2009, 12:06
What i mean is Eldar dont need us or our resouces, DE are just to few in number and chaotic to take over a planet rather than slave runs. Tau Tech while is great they will try to convert us and maybe it would be a diplomatic envoys to join the greater good. Rather than the way the marines would approch intergation. And with no unified defence its every country for its self will seal the deal
Unless this happened to be a Maiden World; they may also not be too pleased with our stewardship.

RCgothic
22-09-2009, 12:06
The smart bombs wouldn't have a target because the marines would be so closely engaged with friendlies.

And even if they did run out of ammo, they can still punch you to death whilst shrugging off nearly all small arms fire.

genestealer_baldric
22-09-2009, 12:32
Unless this happened to be a Maiden World; they may also not be too pleased with our stewardship.

and we would be hard pressed to deny that claim

Burnthem
22-09-2009, 12:34
But then no-one expects the marines to engage in a stand up fight.


But then no-one expects the marines to engage in a stand up fight.


But then no-one expects the marines to engage in a stand up fight.

QFT. Some people just can't seem to realise that a Marine Chapter would never get into a straight fight with a tank division/whatever if they can possibly help it.

The first thing you'd know of a Marine attack was when you woke up in the morning and neither your TV or Radio has a signal, no orders or guidance is coming down from either the government or Military high command as neither exist anymore, and quite possibly your electricity and water may be off to depending on the lengths the Marines want to go to.

All this talk of 'An Abrams could kill a Predator/An HMG could splat a Marine' is pointless and only highlights many posters complete lack of both imagination and tactics.

Do people honestly expect a Marine Squad/Company/Chapter to land in nice open terrain, dig in, and wait for the tank divisions to show up?

No.

They would arrive unannounced and surgically strike where needed, effectively crippling any effective response overnight. You wouldn't even know where they were, assuming they're still even on the planet, and if they're back in orbit well retaliation becomes even more futile.

/Thread.

Szafraniec
22-09-2009, 13:03
Oh no! A small, difficult to kill, group of religious fanatics demanding we give up our heretical ways and worship their god or else...wait...havnt I heard this before?

Back on topic, I would think that, even if available, they wouldnt use orbital barrages and such, at least at first. Behind each Space Marine would be about 20 ad-mech drooling to play with our toys. It would be too good to pass up.

As for the battles...itd be tough. The weaponry they have is so advanced, but they dont understand it. When you figure we're in the throes of what they called the Dark Age of Technology, theres just a lot of things our guns can do that theirs cant because we understand them. Outside a quick loss, our scientists could reverse engineer bolters and las cannons in a terrifying short amount of time. Its the same reason the Tau do so well...theyre not scared of science.

sycopat
22-09-2009, 13:12
Space Marines are not movie marines. They wouldn't be invulnerable to our weaponry (Most small arms fire, yes. GPMG's and up, the power armour wouldn't be perfect)

They would probably be nigh impervious to things like grenades and claymores, you could possibly incapacitate one with an RPG, but the guys standing beside him would likely be fine.

But the armour and the weapons aren't the marines' strongest asset, the strongest asset the marines have is that they aren't stupid. They aren't going to land in the middle of nowhere and march right up, they aren't going to announce their intentions, they swoop in, hit hard and swoop out.

Fighting marines is like fighting an army of batman.

IMO, a full company, including all of it's support elements would probably be enough to make a serious mess of the US, but not conquer it.

Marines fight in surgical strikes. It wouldn't be "battles" where the US can bring it's superior weaponry to bear, it would be simultaneous timed assaults on the pentagon, the white house, and the senate, along with surprise assaults and bombardments on major military installations.

They wouldn't destroy the US, but they would drastically reduce it's ability to act coherently. They would lose a drawn out battle, but marines don't fight that way. They identify targets, eliminate it and retreat.

After destroying the pentagon, the senate and all those military bases, the marines wouldn't hang around to be shot at by the reacting defence forces, they wouldn't even try to hold what they took. They would leave, watch to see what happens, then come back again, eliminating anyone who's risen to take command, destroying more air and naval targets. They'd probably take over any silo's they could identify, and this pattern would repeat itself until all resistance was crushed, or the last marine died.

Personally though I think the US would win that. As a nation it's economy and defence forces would be decimated, but 100 marines probably wouldn't conquer it, the slow trickle of casualties would eventually take it's toll on the marines.

However I also don't see a company of marines assaulting the earth without a taskforce backing them up, itself probably strong enough to conquer the earth in a matter of years. The space marine presence would probably reduce that to a matter of months.

JHZ
22-09-2009, 13:23
I'd probably say no, since:
1. Space Marines have ships with cannons designed for orbital bombardment.
2. Our (as in the entire world) only reasonable defense vs. anything coming from outer space are nukes. And most of the rockets for them are only designed to fly across the planet, not deep into space.
3. Some 40K weapons make nukes look like party poppers.
4. The Space Marine ships are designed to combat against said 40K weapons.

We have to remember that in 40K there's no winning of hearts and minds. Either you submit, or you die. I doubt they'll even try any diplomacy. Just bomb us (the world) until we surrender or the planet gives.

aad
22-09-2009, 13:35
i fantasized about an groundattack of the aliens from indepence day,
and they could conquer earth only because of there shields, otherwise they couldn,t

i.m not so sure if 100 or even 1000 marines would be able to simply destroy america or the world for that matter.

AIR:
thunderhawks?? they have max 50 of these 2000kp/h gunships, america alone has about 200 A10 warthogs(closest thing to a thunderhawk) and 2500 jetfighters lots of bombers etc etc,
so air superiority is not likely for the marines.

SEA:
what can you do as a marine?? landraiders are water resistant but they have 12 max.
what can you do with a jumppack?? have marines bridgelayers, boats etc etc?
america has 12 carriers and thousands of other ships ranging from battleships to small gunboats


LAND:
marines have: 12 landraiders max,50 predators max,100 other vehicles max.
amerika has close to 30.000 armoured vehicles.
spacemarines are bad@ss?? how about millions of civilian americans with guns
hundreds of thousands of troops carrying everything from m16,s to portable grenade/rocket launchers.
yeah marines have armour piercing rounds but so have all the earthly army.s
yeah marines have maybe 100 lascannons or plasmacannons but the earthly army,s have lots of stuff more.

and this is only america,
russia has close to 50.000 armoured vehicles, china can field 150 million soldiers with ease.(there are 1,5 billion chinese people) not to mention all the other forces in the world, thousands of nuclear,chemical,bio weapons.

no one chapter could never win let alone a company.
i.am not even sure if 10 chapters could do anything to take earth.
they are simply outnumbered and have no personal voidshields to protect them.
so they are vulnerable to anything armour piercing, from steel,copper,tungsten or depleted uranium bullet/shells

yeah sure they have battlebarge,s and strikecruisers, but that is all.
voidshieldprotected spaceships capable of blowing earth to pieces.
they could destroy earth easily but then there is nothing left of any use.

so i do think america could easily survive an attack by a company of marine
in the long run i don,t know , marines have spaceships that is their only strongpoint against such huge land/sea masses that,s called earth.

Lord Damocles
22-09-2009, 13:39
When you figure we're in the throes of what they called the Dark Age of Technology...
The [Dark] Age of Technology was ~ M15-25. (Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, pg.7 ect.)

It's currently M3.


Yeah. About that...

Mannimarco
22-09-2009, 13:44
good point but the point people are making in this thread is the marines arnt going to fight your 30 000 vehicles and hundreds of thousands of troops, theyre going after the command structure of the planet, it takes time to relocate this vast sea of manpower which the marines could and would easily avoid

unless you have thousands of troops and armoured vehicles sitting outside all the key targets (white house, pentagon, senate) then they will elimiante these targets and get back out before the first soldier has got on a truck to go fight them

as much as it pains me to say it im going to have to give this to the marines at least in the short term, thats until we kill a couple of them somhow and start reverse engineering some of their equipment

Burnthem
22-09-2009, 13:47
Behind each Space Marine would be about 20 ad-mech drooling to play with our toys. It would be too good to pass up..

Like what? There is precious little technology we have that a Tech Preist would fight hard to have kept in one peice, the Imperium may not be at the level of the DAoT humans, but they are still lightyears in advance of anything we have today.


i fantasized about an groundattack of the aliens from indepence day,

AIR:
SEA:
LAND.....

etc

:cries: I give up. You are talking about a CONVENTIONAL war, one which not only are Marines not equipped to fight, but one which they'd avoid at all costs. They simply wouldnt get bogged down in a straight battle with our militaries.

Could they 'take over' the US and control every facet of life? No.

Could they cripple the government/military/economy within days? Yes.

AndrewGPaul
22-09-2009, 13:51
Well, if you've got a few decades to kill while materials science, the nuclear power industry, bioscience and engineering know-how catches up, you might get a crude knock-off of powered armour, that can stop a bullet or two. "Reverse engineering" isn't easy. About the only thing you'll be able to figure out quickly is that it's possible (which is an imporvement on current understanding) - you've still got a while to go before you can replicate it.

UselessThing
22-09-2009, 14:05
I like to postulate how hard Marines need to be so a handful can defeat entire planets in a stand up fight.

Here, for instance, we see a Marine engage and defeat four tanks in hand to hand combat:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wrNMPRriwc

Allen
22-09-2009, 14:05
:cries: I give up. You are talking about a CONVENTIONAL war, one which not only are Marines not equipped to fight, but one which they'd avoid at all costs. They simply wouldnt get bogged down in a straight battle with our militaries.

It's even worse than that.
In this ipotetical scenario, the Marines don't even need to look at our military to win. They have space superiority, and that's a 'nuff said if I've ever seen one.

With space superiority you can screw anything in a technologically advanced nation without problems. Disrupt or destroy satellite-based communications and services? Check. Gain total air superiority? Check. Render useless sea and land superiority? Check. Sitting outside reach of your enemy's retaliation reach? Check. Being able to hit logistical and political targets without need to mount major land offensives? Check. Devastate the economy of whole nations without putting a single soldier inside their territories? Check.

They don't need to kill thousands of soldier to win: they only need to devastate our communication systems and destroy or damage our logistic assets (key industrial production areas, fuel and energy lines, important streets and railroads and so on). Without that things, any coherent military response could be near impossible to organize.
And let's not start thinking about the worst-case scenario: they came and obliterate a couple of capital cities without warning, out of the blue. No-one on the planet is going to say "no, thanks, we're not going to join the Imperium" after that.

UselessThing
22-09-2009, 14:35
They don't need to kill thousands of soldier to win

It is, however, doubleplus awesome if they can.

Urza
22-09-2009, 14:52
QFT. Some people just can't seem to realise that a Marine Chapter would never get into a straight fight with a tank division/whatever if they can possibly help it.

The first thing you'd know of a Marine attack was when you woke up in the morning and neither your TV or Radio has a signal, no orders or guidance is coming down from either the government or Military high command as neither exist anymore, and quite possibly your electricity and water may be off to depending on the lengths the Marines want to go to.

All this talk of 'An Abrams could kill a Predator/An HMG could splat a Marine' is pointless and only highlights many posters complete lack of both imagination and tactics.

Do people honestly expect a Marine Squad/Company/Chapter to land in nice open terrain, dig in, and wait for the tank divisions to show up?

No.

They would arrive unannounced and surgically strike where needed, effectively crippling any effective response overnight. You wouldn't even know where they were, assuming they're still even on the planet, and if they're back in orbit well retaliation becomes even more futile.

/Thread.

Burnthem wins this thread. :)

Lets face it, at the end of the day the Marines could teleport their Chief Librarian directly into the Oval Office and get him to mind control the President into firing all of America's nukes at China, Russia and Europe, who would then respond in kind, wiping out most of the planet in a matter of hours.

And thats just one Marine :D

Sai-Lauren
22-09-2009, 15:00
Another "Imperium vs 21st century Earth thread". Hmm, must be a Tuesday. :p

The biggest question is "Why would they attack?"

What purpose does it serve them?
Are there other ways of achieving their goals (diplomacy for instance - are we merely useful, but misguided)?
In fact, what are their goals - do they just want the planet's mineral resources, or do they want the manpower and natural resources as well?



NO; a company is no "just 1,000 Marines"; it's one hundred. Plus drivers and pilots, I suppose - say 110-120, at full strength?

I have an essay somewhere about that.;)

Depending on fleet (eg, a Strike Cruiser or a pair of escorts), armour assets and specialists, I reckon that about 150's probably closer to the size (it's the Thunderhawk crews that really boost the numbers).

Even so, they're restricted to Thunderhawks to get back up to orbit - and they should burn if they try to dogfight (very big weakness, no escort fighters). Deny them the trip back to their ship and its supplies and maintenance facilities and they're not going to have it so easy.

So, long story short - one company of marines could not take the US (and I'm a Brit ;)). They'd have early successes, but most modern militaries have been designed to decentralise its command structure (in the event of nuclear attack), so the Marines couldn't just do a decapitation strike, and eventually, they'd be adapted to - Marine's aren't stupid, but neither are our officers, they wouldn't try and fight a stand up battle either.

Throw in several more companies, a decent number of Guard regiments and Imperial Navy assets, then they'd probably be able to do it. But by that stage, you might as well have brought in the diplomats, and spend the lives somewhere else.

And let's be honest, if they put up recruitment posters for the Guard and Navy tomorrow, there'd be a lot of people volunteer, some to get out of whatever life they're in, others just to see what's out there - and then be shot at by it.

So, the real reason why Marines wouldn't take the US is that they wouldn't even try - we're not really worth them bothering - and whether the Imperial Diplomatic Service, the Ecclesiarchy or the Adeptus Mechanicus shows up first to bring up "into the light" is probably down to which chapter finds us.

Basically, if they wanted a show of strength, you'd have a Bombardment Cannon round land on something obvious but not important - followed by a comms signal to formally request a surrender.
Second one would be on the White House or the Pentagon (probably the former).

Or if they really wanted us on side quickly, you'd have a half company of Marines show up in Helmand Province with the Taliban's leaders held at gunpoint, saying "Let's talk".

aximand
22-09-2009, 15:06
Ok, first things first,the Marines do not conquer worlds, that's the IG job, it's like asking for 100 Navy Seals to conquer Italy, they can take the presidents mansion in 5 mins alright, and assassinate him while they will be sure the area is secured but that doesn't mean conquering it.
If the answer is if our 100 marines can split to 20 squads of 5 and hit 20 strategic points, secure them for IG and assassinate any opposition, then the question is funny, ofc they can, you wont even notice them till the next day when your precious strategic points wont be able to report.
If you are asking if a military camp guarding the X target and with a force of about 200-300 ppl can oppose 5 marines, while they don't expect them, in the middle of the night, when nothing electronic will work, then let me remind you...
Marines are 3 metres (or whatever in feet) tall,their bodies are so enhanced that the ribs now form a solid plate and their strength is unmatched by any human example, they wear a smart mimetic set of muscles over them that can enhance their physical strength even more, over that they wear a power armor made of plasteel, a material we don't know about, don't know how much conventional fire it can withstand and have no idea over what temperature it can start to be effected.The power armor will feed the marine with stimulants and everything he will need to be faster, stronger and tougher than anything humanity has ever seen...do you ask if 5 Chuck Norris's can beat 200 10 year olds? ofc they can.
Concerning the air, marine, ground superiority,well...it depends if anything will be working, i was really impressed reading about US having so many airplanes to bring down the Thunderhawks, but...will you be able to fly them?will the satelites be able to give you anything?will even your troop carriers(Hamvies etc) be able to get troops on spot?a spot we don't know where it is ofc cause we have no communications...
I like humanity's way of feeling so secure with their toys, but when the time comes and nothing works we will be back in stone age :(
And don't expect the president to hop on a jet, pass through all the defenses and "kami kaze" on the mothership like independence day,that stuff don't happen.
last but not least,don't say about US superiority over IG, the Imperium has 38.000 year of further knowledge and military training than all of us,with 38.000 years of evolution we seem like apes in front of them, don't think you can outsmart them, don't think you can be better than an army that can send a handfull of commandos in a chaos infested and populated world, finish the job and live to tell the story.From my 1.5 years of actual field experience i can tell you that when the time comes you will forget all your training and do whatever possible to stay alive,you can't outmanouvre an army of 10.000 years of history.
If any civilization has the means to pass half a galaxy and attack you, it probably means that they will win :p
Cheers.

loveless
22-09-2009, 15:12
All I want to know is this:
Is Marneus Calgar going to be there, and is he going to punch Barack Obama in the face?

grissom2006
22-09-2009, 15:13
SEA:
what can you do as a marine?? landraiders are water resistant but they have 12 max.
what can you do with a jumppack?? have marines bridgelayers, boats etc etc?
america has 12 carriers and thousands of other ships ranging from battleships to small gunboats


Lets skip to the part we're the Marines walk about on the sea and ocean (Space Wolves use it) beds to which very very few Subs RV's and such can ever get down to. Wonder along the floor place explosives in ever major port and harbour Navy rendered useless du to suppy issues and not being able to take on fuel. Then of course we get to all those wonderful underwater pipes that carry fuel and the oil rigs themselves. Worth noting at this point the refineries on the whole tend to be coastal for most countries that have off shore drilling.

Now someone tell me what happens when your tanks, jeeps, trucks, field generators etc.. don't have fuel. Let alone what happens when you don't get supplies through to your frontline troopers.

Burnthem
22-09-2009, 15:18
Burnthem wins this thread.

Why thank you :)

RCgothic
22-09-2009, 15:44
Imagine you are a marine commander. You maybe have at your disposal (besides yourself):
105 marines with a 60/20/20/5 split of tactical/assault/devastator/command.
10 first company terminators
1 company chaplain

5 thunderhawk gunships
2 thunderhawk transporters
1 strike cruiser
50 drop pods
15 rhinos/razorbacks
3 Landspeeders
1 land raider
1 dreadnaught
1 tech priest
Strike cruiser's crew.

You also have total space superiority. If it were me:

Phase 1. I'd arrive in orbit, and I'd take some time to analyze the situation. First, I'd hold off in high earth orbit, take some time to make general maps of the earth and asses the political, military and technological situation. I'm probably undetected during this period, and depending on my schedule I'd take quite a while over it.

Phase 2, I drop into a very low earth orbit, maybe 80km up in a polar orbit. I complete an entire orbit every 85m and get to detailed mapping and target aquisition. I'm now below the communications satelites, so listening in isn't too difficult, and the discovery of the internet helps with target aquisition. Meanwhile, my 1-2km strike cruiser is very visible at a mere 80km up, and visible from any point on earth. The population below starts to discuss the arrival of an alien vessel. I don't expect to be fired on, but ICBMs are easily evaded/shot down, and no other weapon can reach this high.

After a suitable period of time, I broadcast messages of friendship on all channels. I'm delighted to have found this long lost colony of man, I say. I can offer technology, trade, and defence against the xenos and the heretic. All you have to do in return is pledge loyalty to the throne, worship the Emperor, and pay your tithes. I offer to meet with the fragmentary planetary government (the UN), and discuss the arrangements for bringing about compliance.

After an emergency meeting of the UN, they reject my offer. I beam down to their debating chamber with 5 Terminator escorts, and implore them to accept. The Imperium needs this world. There are threats in the galaxy against which you would be totally defenceless. Accept our terms. Some of the member states seem to be wavering, but the US ambassador vocally rejects us. I teleport back to my strike cruiser and begin preparations.

Phase 3. I inform the population that, with regret, their leaders have forced my hand, and that the US will now be made an example of. I retreat to a higher orbit where I can get a firing solution on every part of the continental US, and broadcast white noise powerful enough to jam every communication satelite in this hemisphere. Within minutes, every airbase and carrier battlegroup in the US has been flattened and a precision lance strike has destroyed the pentagon. A pair of drop pods slam into the white house lawn and the grounds of the capitol building. Within minutes everyone in these buildings are dead or dying. A thunderhawk retrieves the squads without resistance, now that andrews air force base is destroyed.

Terminators Teleport into Cheyenne mountain. Melta charges blow open the blast doors, and the terminators are unstoppable in the tight corridors. Killing everyone they encounter, strategically placed charges level the command centres. They then teleport back out.

Having eliminated much of the US federal government, military command and airforce, the demand for complience is repeated. Major population centres are threatened with bombardment. This time the world governments aquiesce.

Damage,Inc.
22-09-2009, 15:48
QFT. Some people just can't seem to realise that a Marine Chapter would never get into a straight fight with a tank division/whatever if they can possibly help it.

Others have said similar, but the truth is that a good comnnader can make the best of any situation. Forcing manuever warfare can be done and with the attrition rate of Marines even small losses add up quickly. Remember that Marines cannot <i>simply</i> teleport everywhere and they do carry limited ammo. If you think it would be hard to intercept a Thunderhawk, even on it's way back from a mission, then you better think again.



The first thing you'd know of a Marine attack was when you woke up in the morning and neither your TV or Radio has a signal, no orders or guidance is coming down from either the government or Military high command as neither exist anymore, and quite possibly your electricity and water may be off to depending on the lengths the Marines want to go to.

Actually, we DO have plans in place for this very circumstance. Starting in the 1950s America faced this issued, except the prospect was from atomic bombs and nuclear missiles. The first indication of an attack may very well have been the White House ceasing to exist, but that wasn't supposed to stop the entire network. Today we still have something similar to combat the prospects of terrorism, where losing an installation to a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb is a very real thing.



All this talk of 'An Abrams could kill a Predator/An HMG could splat a Marine' is pointless and only highlights many posters complete lack of both imagination and tactics.
It does? By stating a counter-argument that <i>you</i> do not agree with, that means other posters are just tactical simpletons? How very open-minded of you (roll eyes). I suppose the reason this line of discussion is "pointless" is because it invalidates your argument and you don't wish to expand upon those thoughts. That reeks of fanboism.



Do people honestly expect a Marine Squad/Company/Chapter to land in nice open terrain, dig in, and wait for the tank divisions to show up?
I suppose the real question is, is this how you imagine the counter argument thinking? We're not saying the SMs would drop-pod into JRTC on a muddy day. Believing that there is "no possible way" to defend against an attack such as the Marines would do is perhaps a highlight of that "lack of imagination" you spoke of earlier.



No.

Ah, I see you answered that question already.



They would arrive unannounced and surgically strike where needed, effectively crippling any effective response overnight. You wouldn't even know where they were, assuming they're still even on the planet, and if they're back in orbit well retaliation becomes even more futile.

/Thread.

I think you need to realise that Humans have been killing each other, and other things, very adeptly, for pretty much as long as we've been around. Big game hunters with large-bore rifles have made entire species of large game extinct. A long list of attorcities shows how Humans adapted to use <i>everything</i> to kill each other. Our eras of peace have been heralded by weapons expansion.

I'm not saying that the Marines would be easily overcome- just that we aren't as defensless as some people like to think.

Damage,Inc.
22-09-2009, 15:51
Another "Imperium vs 21st century Earth thread". Hmm, must be a Tuesday. :p

The biggest question is "Why would they attack?"

What purpose does it serve them?
Are there other ways of achieving their goals (diplomacy for instance - are we merely useful, but misguided)?
In fact, what are their goals - do they just want the planet's mineral resources, or do they want the manpower and natural resources as well?


I have an essay somewhere about that.;)

Depending on fleet (eg, a Strike Cruiser or a pair of escorts), armour assets and specialists, I reckon that about 150's probably closer to the size (it's the Thunderhawk crews that really boost the numbers).

Even so, they're restricted to Thunderhawks to get back up to orbit - and they should burn if they try to dogfight (very big weakness, no escort fighters). Deny them the trip back to their ship and its supplies and maintenance facilities and they're not going to have it so easy.

So, long story short - one company of marines could not take the US (and I'm a Brit ;)). They'd have early successes, but most modern militaries have been designed to decentralise its command structure (in the event of nuclear attack), so the Marines couldn't just do a decapitation strike, and eventually, they'd be adapted to - Marine's aren't stupid, but neither are our officers, they wouldn't try and fight a stand up battle either.

Throw in several more companies, a decent number of Guard regiments and Imperial Navy assets, then they'd probably be able to do it. But by that stage, you might as well have brought in the diplomats, and spend the lives somewhere else.

And let's be honest, if they put up recruitment posters for the Guard and Navy tomorrow, there'd be a lot of people volunteer, some to get out of whatever life they're in, others just to see what's out there - and then be shot at by it.

So, the real reason why Marines wouldn't take the US is that they wouldn't even try - we're not really worth them bothering - and whether the Imperial Diplomatic Service, the Ecclesiarchy or the Adeptus Mechanicus shows up first to bring up "into the light" is probably down to which chapter finds us.

Basically, if they wanted a show of strength, you'd have a Bombardment Cannon round land on something obvious but not important - followed by a comms signal to formally request a surrender.
Second one would be on the White House or the Pentagon (probably the former).

Or if they really wanted us on side quickly, you'd have a half company of Marines show up in Helmand Province with the Taliban's leaders held at gunpoint, saying "Let's talk".


Dang, looks like you beat my to my point. :p

NightrawenII
22-09-2009, 15:57
Fighting marines is like fighting an army of batman.


Best description eva'. Good job, mate.:cool:

Keichi246
22-09-2009, 15:59
I think it depends on a couple of factors:

One: What is the order of battle of the Space Marine force?

I figure we're talking a typical "expedition type" company - 5 to 10 terminators, 80 to 90 normal battle brothers, and between 15 and 20 scouts.

If it is a company - I presume they would NOT have a battle barge or more than a dozen or so tanks. Most Chapters don't *have* enough battle barges to send out one with each company. The typical "company" transport is a strike cruiser with escorts. That *severely* limits what the Space Marines can do. Most of them aren't equipped for Exterminatus (requires Inquisitorial mandate to carry out). Said fleet also has limited space to surface bombardment capabilties (it really can only hit a number of targets equal to the number of ships in the force at a time - so it will take a while to nuke a lot of targets). It also sets an upper limit on the amount of wargear, ammo and replenishment that the marines have.

Two: What is the alert status of the US military?

Did the US see a mysterious force of several kilometer long ships drive into orbit? If that's the case - the US military would probably go to a heightened alert status. A percentage of the US leadership would go into hiding, the rest would be in various and sundry other bunkers and secured locations, and the military would begin preparations. Suddenly - a whole MESS of troops become available as the National Guard units become activated. Combat air patrols start flying, several Aegis cruisers that are located in key positions go to ready status, etc.

Three: What "style" marines are attacking - the ones from the fluff or the ones from the tabletop?

Tabletop marines? The invasion has no chance whatsoever. Let's say that modern military rifles are the rough equivalent of autoguns. S3, AP nil. One in three hits wound, one in three wounds "kill". That's one in nine hits taking out a Space Marine.
`
Do you honestly think that the entire ready reaction forces at the Pentagon, NORAD, or at many other military bases CAN'T get the ninety hits required to take out a squad of space marines during the course of their attacks?

Sure - the Space Marines will rip up whatever force they run into. But statistically - each time they run into a squad of defending troops - they will probably be losing a Space Marine in the process. Sheer attrition will do the rest.

Now, if it's movie marines or a book being written by GW - then all bets are off. Although I do imagine the profligate use of C4, LAWs and other "big boom" weapons still being rather effective against movie marines.

Four: do all the Space Marines have their helmets on? ;)

Many of you WON'T believe me - but every member of the Secret Service and a solid chunk of the FBI are very, *VERY* good at their jobs, and shooting specifically. They regularly have competitions to see who *can't* shoot perfect scores on the range and in the shooting houses. Many of them can place shots EXACTLY where they want them - first time - every time. (think BS 5 material)

Every Space Marine without a helmet on WILL die in short order if they face them. No ifs, ands, or buts. I don't care how tough you think Space Marines are - the physical realities of flesh and bone mean that modern weapons can and will mess up a marine if they get hit in the face. And they will if they run into shooters rated High Expert. So picture 10% casualties to the Space Marine force as their faces get blown off by the desperate gunfire of the heavily outmatched Secret Service. And that is the leadership 10%...

Grant you - I don't expect the Secret Service to survive long either in that case; but there are as many secret service around the white house as there would be Space Marines in any attack.

Five: The myth of the drop pod assault.

It's been discussed before on other threads - but drop pod assaults aren't all THAT fast. Physics precludes it. Certainly no faster than a ballistic missle reentry profile (ballistic missles don't need to slow down).

Remember those Aegis cruisers I mentioned earlier? There's a reason why several of them hang around the Eastern seaboard (and specifcially in the Potomac) almost constantly nowadays. The latest upgrades give them a very respectable chance to shoot down incoming ballistic missiles (one of the reasons cited in the abandonment of the "missile shield" in Poland). They don't turn their radar on normally in US waters because it "interferes" with traffic control radars, but you better believe that the US would have every radar, telescope, and even guys with high power binoculars aimed at the "mystery ships". The moment anyone suspects a launch - the Aegis cruisers would go active.

Sure - the Strike Cruiser may try to sink the Aegis cruisers with orbital bombardment - but if they didn't - I see a number of drop pods running into outbound missiles high in their insertion profile - for rather devastating effects.

But heck - I know people are going to argue this point - so I'm willing to concede that it may not work. But even a handful of lost pods could have a devastating effect on the local force levels of the Space Marines.

Six: Sociological and Psychological aspects of any such attacks on the US.

There's something that many people (especially foreigners, no offense to any of you) always seem to forget about the US. Most of the time, the US is about as focussed and dangerous as a bag full of kittens. We quarrel, scrabble and resist doing pretty much anything most of the time. :p But when US territory is attacked - especially by "surprise" - as a nation we tend to get very angry and pissed off. Nothing unites the US more than a "surprise attack".

What does that mean in this case?
So what if the President gets killed? So what if a portion of Congress gets nuked by a bombardment cannon barrage? Honestly - most of the US would probably cheer at the thought of a bunch of useless politicians getting wasted. (I remember everyone in the theater cheering the White House getting blown away in Independence Day... :) ) Then, most of us would immediately start working on figuring out a way of fighting the invaders. We may all think politicians are bastards - but they are OUR elected bastards, dammit!

That is the most important flaw in the "Space Marine Invasion". Simply put - Space Marines can do shock and awe tactics and decapitation strikes with the best of them. But as recent experience in various Middle Eastern countries has proven - you need a LOT of boots on the ground to KEEP something the size of a country pacified. There are not nearly enough Space Marines in a company to actually HOLD ground against an unwilling people. And that makes sense.

Most of the time in the GW fluff - the Marines are either killing a local rebellious government and depending on local Imperium loving humans to act as a fifth column to recapture the planet; or they are acting in conjunction with the Imperial Guard - who do the "boots on the ground" work of recapturing the planet. They simply CAN'T do all the work themselves.

Any Space Marine invasion of the US would eventually end in failure for that reason.

Mannimarco
22-09-2009, 16:19
what he said

you good sir have just won the thread

massey
22-09-2009, 16:57
Everyone always wants to aim these towards marines having space superiority and an advantage there. The scenario always seems to be "marines show up with full battleship support and orbitally bombard to their hearts' content". I'm tired of that scenario.

New scenario. The US government has some top secret research going on, Philadelphia Experiment style. Whoosh! A large force of troops and equipment is transported into the far future, to a distant planet. A company of marines is sitting there, having their afternoon tea (they are British). One of them stands up and says "Blimey, there's an army out there." He stands up and says "For the Emperor!" and starts shooting. A firefight erupts, and many soldiers are killed. Then the Abrams start shooting and the marines are killed to a man.

Rykion
22-09-2009, 17:17
The Space Marines do in fact fight as a conventional force a lot of the time. That is what most games of 40k simulate. The background is full of stories of marines fighting on the line and taking part in sieges. They have tanks, artillery, and heavy weapons as part of their basic TO&E. This is not the equipment of a force that fights predominately unconventional warfare. Drop Pods are about the only unconventional part of their arsenal, and they are of limited use. Even fighting an unconventional battle, the 100 or so Space Marines would lose against any well equipped modern military. Bombardment from space is what would win the war, not 100 marines.

If you are asking if a military camp guarding the X target and with a force of about 200-300 ppl can oppose 5 marines, while they don't expect them, in the middle of the night, when nothing electronic will work, then let me remind you...
Marines are 3 metres (or whatever in feet) tall,their bodies are so enhanced that the ribs now form a solid plate and their strength is unmatched by any human example, they wear a smart mimetic set of muscles over them that can enhance their physical strength even more, over that they wear a power armor made of plasteel, a material we don't know about, don't know how much conventional fire it can withstand and have no idea over what temperature it can start to be effected.The power armor will feed the marine with stimulants and everything he will need to be faster, stronger and tougher than anything humanity has ever seen...do you ask if 5 Chuck Norris's can beat 200 10 year olds? ofc they can.
Fortunately we have a game designed to test just such a scenario. Put 5 marines on the board. Now put 20 squads of 10 normal guardsmen on the board. Even without armor and armed with just knives, my money is on the guardsmen in a game of 40k.;)

Szafraniec
22-09-2009, 17:27
Im shocked we're four pages in and nobody has made a Chuck Norris joke...

But again I digress. The question here is more 'can the world survive having its infrastructure leveled in a night'. We're talking about a lightning fast attack aimed at our most important structures/people. There is zero chance we would be ready to defend against an SM alpha strike.

Most of the posters are right, theres just no reason that the SMs would get into a stand up slug it out fight. They dont have the manpower and ability to take that kind of sustained punishment. Thats why the IG is necessary, there is no way that the SM could 'occupy' even an area as large as the US, even if the whole frackin Chapter is there.

But could we survive the attack? I dont think the world has ever been in a spot where its left leaderless with its communication and intelligence centers in tatters. And thats just night one. I think the SM could keep us reeling, but over time, each single battle brother that falls would be a massive loss. If youre talking a company, your asking each country to kill one marine. While some would be wholly incapable of doing that, others could make up for the loss.

aximand
22-09-2009, 17:40
Fortunately we have a game designed to test just such a scenario. Put 5 marines on the board. Now put 20 squads of 10 normal guardsmen on the board. Even without armor and armed with just knives, my money is on the guardsmen in a game of 40k.;)

That's why i only paint lately, cause in a situation like this, i really think they would let one of the 5 Marines do the killing and the rest would bet on the time he needs to annihilate all of the Guardsmen.You are so right that the guardsmen would win in the game, but we still know that you only need 1 marine to create havoc,everyone who has read "Lord of the Night" knows...
As for the argument about how good US does when united, concerning killing some jihadists, please, pretty please, don't compare shoeless Abdul with sgt.Anaximandrus from the 2nd company, it's just not fair for the sgt's 326 years of service :D
Gosh this is so good after such a bad day in the office,bring on the flame :angel:

mightymconeshot
22-09-2009, 17:55
Im shocked we're four pages in and nobody has made a Chuck Norris joke...



it was on page 3 i think. something about can 5 chuck norris beat 200 10 year old dolls?

UselessThing
22-09-2009, 18:05
where the Marines walk about on the sea and ocean bed

Or bring in the Space Shark Aqua-Cavalry riding giant cybernetic Great White Sharks.

Keichi246
22-09-2009, 18:11
The question here is more 'can the world survive having its infrastructure leveled in a night'. We're talking about a lightning fast attack aimed at our most important structures/people. There is zero chance we would be ready to defend against an SM alpha strike.

Most of the posters are right, theres just no reason that the SMs would get into a stand up slug it out fight. They dont have the manpower and ability to take that kind of sustained punishment. Thats why the IG is necessary, there is no way that the SM could 'occupy' even an area as large as the US, even if the whole frackin Chapter is there.

But could we survive the attack? I dont think the world has ever been in a spot where its left leaderless with its communication and intelligence centers in tatters. And thats just night one. I think the SM could keep us reeling, but over time, each single battle brother that falls would be a massive loss. If youre talking a company, your asking each country to kill one marine. While some would be wholly incapable of doing that, others could make up for the loss.

That's the thing though - a single company of Space Marines don't HAVE the capability to level the infrastructure of the US in one night, and have every possibility of taking critical losses in the process...

The prow bombardment cannons on the Strike cruiser aren't firing nukes. It's not a Nova cannon. Hell - the strike cruiser in the Taros campaign fired over 50 rounds into the area around the missile silo decima (i think that's what it was called ) and there were still 2 silos functional. Lance strikes have an even smaller footprint - the effected area is less than the range of a rifle. So don't think "Indepence Day" levels of destruction from the orbital fire support of a Strike Cruiser and it's escorts.

Like I said in my post - the Space Marines by themselves don't have a capabilities to knock out the US in one fell swoop.

And Aximand

As for the argument about how good US does when united, concerning killing some jihadists, please, pretty please, don't compare shoeless Abdul with sgt.Anaximandrus from the 2nd company, it's just not fair for the sgt's 326 years of service
Gosh this is so good after such a bad day in the office,bring on the flame

No flames - but I was simply observing the fact that controlling a restive populous is TOUGH. I don't care how tough Sgt Anaximandrus is - Space Marines can and do die, even to "simple" weapons like flamethrowers and assault rifles. When you are outnumbered 2,000,000 to 1 - SOMEONE is gonna figure out a method to kill you. Even if it involves getting a nuclear weapon into the same neighborhood and detonating it. (There isn't any fluff that I know of a Marine surviving in the kill radius of a nuke.)

Herein lies the problem with this discussion - Marines capabilities have always been determined by *plot*. Lords of Night - they were an army of batman. Imperial Fists - with there screaming yellow armor and their tradition of showing their colors proudly? Less so.

In some books - light autocannons bounce off their armor. Other books - simple flamethrowers and explosives kill them. Heck - I can point at a case where an army with NO weaponry more advanced that "primitive" wiping out a Chaos marine force...

So - I re-iterate the idea- I think the Space Marine force would not win - simply because in my plot - they don't have the manpower.

Sojourner
22-09-2009, 18:14
There is no conceivable mission that Space Marines would undertake that involves a pitched battle against an organised American (or any other nationality) force. They have every opportunity to strike wherever they please before being extracted at a leisurely pace. In the hours or days that it would take to assemble and brief a substantial force with the appropriate weaponry and expertise, they'd be long gone. It'd probably take an hour on the phone with police just to convince the nearest National Guard commander that there was a genuine threat and not a hoax.

aximand
22-09-2009, 18:28
Sojourner got my point, i don't say 100 marines can take on 250 millions, i do say tho that a company of marines can hit a few very important targets and cripple the country in an instant, marines DON'T take over countries/planets/systems, they cripple the target and send a million of IG for the kill.
The whole 1 company vs a nation isn't possible not only because they are gravely outnumbered but because it's NOT the Marines job to do it.
...and no flame Keichi246, just our fun ;)

Deadnight
22-09-2009, 18:43
Look at what the basic humans did in the final firefight with the decepticons in transformers 2. guys with machine guns, sniper rifles and light artillery were wrecking 5metre tall armoured behemoths with millions of years of technology behind them.
then it got even worse when they called in airstrikes.

:)


didnt a company of marines hit the governers palace at taros only to have 2/3 of them wiped out by

(1)2 fighter bombers
(2) a manta
(3)2 hunter cadres. comprising a few crisis suits, pathfinders, regular grunts and tanks.

Now fine, we dont have pulse rifles. but line up an a-10 firing run and i guarantee you a load of marines are gonna be torn to shreds

__________________________________________________ __________________

grissom2006
22-09-2009, 18:45
Marines strike Imperial Guard mop up and finish the job only rarely do the Guard end up asking for the Marines to come in.

grissom2006
22-09-2009, 18:47
Look at what the basic humans did in the final firefight with the decepticons in transformers 2. guys with machine guns, sniper rifles and light artillery were wrecking 5metre tall armoured behemoths with millions of years of technology behind them.
then it got even worse when they called in airstrikes.

:)


didnt a company of marines hit the governers palace at taros only to have 2/3 of them wiped out by

(1)2 fighter bombers
(2) a manta
(3)2 hunter cadres. comprising a few crisis suits, pathfinders, regular grunts and tanks.

Now fine, we dont have pulse rifles. but line up an a-10 firing run and i guarantee you a load of marines are gonna be torn to shreds

__________________________________________________ __________________

All armed with special issue rounds bare in mind as in the first one they got their butts kicked when armed with conventional rounds.

Damage,Inc.
22-09-2009, 18:53
Im shocked we're four pages in and nobody has made a Chuck Norris joke...


Rest assured, Sir, it has been a challenge not to...

Wintermute
22-09-2009, 18:53
This thread has rationale for being in 40K Background and its also pointless.

Thread Closed

Wintermute