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Chronomancer
22-09-2009, 08:21
Hi!

I have been playing with a friend a game of WHFB, and the following issue has occured. He cast a spell with his Lizard Lord that set the WS of my unit to 1, as a remains in play spell. On my turn, I use my Vampire Lord's Helm of Commandment to give that unit a set WS equal to the Lord's.
..
..
..
My unit for the combat has WS
a)1
b)7
c)the effects cancel each other out and we strike with normal WS
d)we roll a die.... (lol)

Thanx for the up-coming help.
K.

Atrahasis
22-09-2009, 08:24
From the Vampire Counts FAQ:

Q. If a friendly Undead unit is targeted by an
enemy spell or ability which modifies the
Weapon Skill of the unit (e.g. ‘Blinding Light’
from the Lore of Light) and a Vampire Lord
wearing the Helm of Commandment wishes to
pass his Weapon Skill onto the unit, which
takes precedence? Is the unit's Weapons Skill
considered to be 7 and then modified per the
spell or ability, or will they use the Vampire
Lord's Weapon Skill in such an instance?
A. They will use the Lord’s WS of 7. We
recommend casting the spell on the Lord
instead!

jaxom
22-09-2009, 16:59
As I recall, the Lord cannot be in combat when the helm is used so he is not in the unit. If he were in the unit then his WS would be 1 as well and using the helm would not be any benefit. Otherwise, the FAQ Atra quoted will apply.

siphon101
22-09-2009, 17:47
the vampire counts FAQ is very clear on this. A unit so effected by the helm of commandment uses the WS of the vampire, regardless of any modifiers on the unit being effected.

Whatever the WS of the character wearing the helm is during that turn is the WS you use. If you want to nullify the helm, cast something on the vampire using it.

sulla
22-09-2009, 20:07
Basically, the helm trumps everythng in the game as long as the user is not in cc at the specific instant he chooses to buff the nearby unit.

Casting at the user is not an option unless you play DE because all the other ws modifiers (spells and items) have to be used in cc.

jaxom
22-09-2009, 20:38
o.0

I kinda like Lore of Metal which is what the OP referred to I believe. Lizards don't have any *other* way to drop WS to 1 that I can think of. Specifically, if you have two casters with Lore of Metal you could, in theory, hit the bearer of the helm and a unit you were in combat with, effectively hamstringing your opponent.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-09-2009, 21:14
Lore of Light, jaxom.

Atrahasis
23-09-2009, 07:48
At first inspection the FAQ answer does seem contradictory, as the Helm wearer cannot be in combat and pass on his WS, and Dazzling Brightness cannot be cast on units that are not in combat.

However, the VC FAQ also says that a Vampire with the Helm can use it even if his unit is engaged, as long as he himself is not in a fighting position. In that instance, the Vampire could be Dazzled and be dissuaded from passing his WS1 onto his troops.

tarrasque
23-09-2009, 08:09
btw the lsat magic counters the first magic anyway

Necromancy Black
23-09-2009, 08:13
btw the lsat magic counters the first magic anyway

Does it? Is the helm a spell of some kind? If it isn't then the affects do not cancel each other.

narrativium
24-09-2009, 00:35
Not to mention, magic items specifically take precedence when they contradict other rules. Spells are not an exception to this.

Milgram
24-09-2009, 09:26
nope. items>spells is 6th ed.

narrativium
24-09-2009, 10:38
The rule whereby magic items take precedence over normal rules if they contradict is still 7th Ed.

Necromancy Black
24-09-2009, 11:09
Got a page quote for this rule?

narrativium
24-09-2009, 11:23
Page 120, second paragraph.

jaxom
24-09-2009, 13:18
That's all immaterial. The Helm is not preventing the spell from having effect or anything. The unit's own WS is still 1, just like it might have been 3 or whatever. The Vampire's skill is still 7 and the unit is using *his* weapon skill.

And yeah, I hit the Metal/Light lore thing last night and realized my error. Metal is -1 to hit and wound. Light is WS 1.

Necromancy Black
24-09-2009, 23:18
Page 120, second paragraph.

Cheers, never notice that paragraph before.

WLBjork
25-09-2009, 04:20
The rule whereby magic items take precedence over normal rules if they contradict is still 7th Ed.

Spell effects are not normal game rules however.

narrativium
25-09-2009, 09:31
You'll have to illuminate me a bit further there. I've pointed out where the rule is establishing where magic items override other rules, but I haven't found the line establishing which rules are normal and which aren't. I know magic items can have an effect on other parts of the magic phase - bonuses to cast, more dice, one magic item in the Wood Elf list which directly changes a spell effect (adding an inch to Treesinging) - why are spells not "normal" rules?

nosferatu1001
25-09-2009, 13:16
I would have thought "normal" rules would be those found in the BRB - those are the common rules that all armies start off following.

Helm of Commandment is not a normal rule by any stretch of the term.

narrativium
25-09-2009, 13:30
By that argument magic items can overrule the eight basic spell lores but not rules from any of the army books.

WLBjork
26-09-2009, 04:46
You'll have to illuminate me a bit further there. I've pointed out where the rule is establishing where magic items override other rules, but I haven't found the line establishing which rules are normal and which aren't. I know magic items can have an effect on other parts of the magic phase - bonuses to cast, more dice, one magic item in the Wood Elf list which directly changes a spell effect (adding an inch to Treesinging) - why are spells not "normal" rules?

They only apply under certain circumstances (i.e, sucessfully cast, limited effect).

Indeed, some spell effects override normal game rules - e.g. The Oxen Stands - units affected by the spell rally automatically (i.e. no Ld test) even if below 25% strength.