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Jiggy
22-09-2009, 13:03
After seing animerik's hellcannon ( http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135374&page=4 the guy is epic) I decided to make one too.So far I thought the hellcannon aint great but by looking back at the stone thrower rules and it's own I changed my mind.
We get:
Small blaster, Strength 5 (10 for the model under the hole), d6 wounds and no AS!
And while other armies need carefull deployment we don't cause it is a large target and can see over anything that is not!

Now couple this with the fact it can stand it's own if it has to fight an enemy and I don't see 205 pts as a bad price if you like the model (or the one you are gonna make)

What are your opinions on this and/or your suggestions on how to use it?

Max1mum
22-09-2009, 13:46
one - i love it and will use the model GW presented me with ;-).

( lovely little dwarfs ) ...

but i actualy have a question....regarding the terror test.

does a unit have to take repetative terror tests when this thing hits.

Unuhexium
22-09-2009, 13:58
No, you take one terror test and after that the unit only count the hellcannon as fearcausing. I suppose the terror is from the sheer mindwarping chock of encountering something that alien and malevolent. After the chock has settled, it's just bloody creepy.

I just deploy my hellcannon out of the way and with a good view of the battlefield. Then i pound the enemy to pieces.

Witchblade
22-09-2009, 14:17
It's only barely worth its points, but it's one of the few ways WoC can deal with dragons and the like. So fire at those targets with primary priority and at panicable units with secondary priority.

Being unbreakable means it's pretty damn good at holding a flank. Speaking of flanks, the hellcannon is an excellent flanker and anvil at the same time. Charging beyond 6" means the dwarves don't get into combat, which is as you want it, and the hellcannon generally doesn't die in combat, unless you charge something reeeally nasty. US 5 denies flanks.

It's good at holding a table quarter and covering the rear of your lines.

Small arms won't hurt it, unless they're poisoned. War machines on the other hand will destroy it in no time.

Don't fear typical weak war machine hunters, such as great eagles, fast cavalry or harpies. The hellcannon will slaughter them.

The hellcannon is one of the only ways WoC have to deal with units in forests and it's more than capable to handle most skirmishers in the game.

Jiggy
22-09-2009, 16:02
I think maximum was reffering to the panic test you take when it hits you.If so yes you must pass the panic test every time it hits.If not Unuhexium covered it really well.

pointyteeth
22-09-2009, 17:02
Combine the hellcannon's panic test at -1Ld with the -1Ld banner and against non-ItP armies you'll have units fleeing everywhere. Though...with so many things in the game ItP, it can be quite ineffective.

Witchblade
22-09-2009, 17:26
Doom Totem looks nice on paper, as do Doom & Darkness, Hellshriek, Diabolic Splendour and Pandaemonium.

The problem is that exalteds in general and those carrying the Doom Totem in particular, Death Magic and Slaaneshi magic are all not worth their points. You'll destroy the weaker armies, but you'll lose badly against the top tier armies.

Warp-Juicer
22-09-2009, 18:39
I love it, but a couple of things bug me about it

1) Why do poison attacks hurt the cannon?
2) Why cant I make it charge if it has handlers still.

Jiggy
22-09-2009, 18:45
You CAN make it charge but you will use it's movement and not the 3d6

Mafuna
22-09-2009, 19:05
I have only used it a couple of times, but it have done very heavy dmg so far :)

Harwammer
23-09-2009, 06:49
It seems great but I am reluctant to get one as it seems like 102.5 easy VPs for my opponent.

I'm hoping in 8th ed half strength will be decided by unit strength lost rather than casualties taken... or adds a different half strength vp rule for monster and handlers.

Max1mum
23-09-2009, 09:17
I think maximum was reffering to the panic test you take when it hits you.If so yes you must pass the panic test every time it hits.If not Unuhexium covered it really well.

That is what i was curious about.
But the book calls it a 'terror test' ....( or doesn't it ..and am i loosing it ?!)
( the downsides of trolling on forums from work :P you don't have your book with you )

Sirroelivan
23-09-2009, 09:20
A unit only has to take one terror test in a game, afterwards terror causing units just cause fear against that unit. So, the charged unit would either have to take a terror test or a fear test. (not a panic test :p )

Max1mum
23-09-2009, 09:39
i know this ...

i know the basic rules

it's about the effect the damn thing has when it shoots you...
the effect of being hit triggers a terror test ;-)...does that mean it will trigger a fear test on later shots ?

Reinnon
23-09-2009, 09:54
Thats the old rules for the hellcannon, nowadays it doesn't foce a terror test if it hits - page 66 of the warriors of chaos book.

Its just a panic test.

Max1mum
23-09-2009, 10:20
...:P rightious ;-) ...thank you...

~wonders how it creaped into his mind that it's still a terror test~

i will just asume i'm a idiot :P.

Unuhexium
23-09-2009, 12:23
Would be a bit too evil if the cannon"ball" (burning tormented soul) caused terror. ^^ Shoot at something and every enemy unit within 6" of the point of impact would have to roll a terror test. Next turn, new cannonball, new terror tests. It's a massively strong weapon as it is and that would only make it overpowered.

My hellcannon seldom make it's points back, but it's very fun to use... *grumbles* when it doesn't blow up and take 1/3 of a unit of chaos warriors with it... *grumble grumble*

Max1mum
23-09-2009, 14:41
~smiles~

i have used it in 5 battles so far, ..the most epic moment was when it ate that empire hero that can play body guard for Kharl Franze.....was just to funny :P.

and the least epic when it kept missing a unit..and i started shooting at it out of spite instead of cunning and tactics.....only for the damn thing to blow it self up in turn 6...

danny-d-b
23-09-2009, 17:18
only have one experance of a hell cannon in a large multiplayer game (6 a side 1000 points each chaos vs undead)
turn 1- misfires on a 3 and 10 wizzrds miscast, including a vamp genral in a large unit of graveguard blowing up
turn 2 misses
turn 3- eat by a tomb scorpian

stashman
23-09-2009, 18:52
I don't play WoC but I have an intresting ide about the use of Hellcannon. It's a skirmisher, so why not use that benefit and try to move tru woods and other terrain and the attack with it in the same manor as it would been a unit. Shooting is good, but the use of it as a tough resilient giant makes me wanna think of more use than the normal. Having two is probably to much for the opponent, especially if you have terrain so you can keep it from getting shot at.

Jiggy
23-09-2009, 19:09
Can't move through woods.Just like all other monster+handlers skirmishers (cunning hydras charging out of woods comes to mind...)

sulla
23-09-2009, 20:54
1) Why do poison attacks hurt the cannon?
Same reason it can still fire even if there are no handlers there to load it... Chaos did it.

Arguleon-veq
23-09-2009, 21:09
Mine has been phenominal. Eating Vamps, Orc BSB's, Hydras, Blasting down Swathes of enemy Infantry, Bret Knights, Black Guard, Chaos Warriors. It has even eaten Kairos.

I have a kill count for mine in my BatRep Blog and the big Chaos Tactics thread.

kennyal
04-10-2011, 12:27
My Chaos army has 2 Hellcannons, I combine them with doom totem, pandemoium, diabolic splendour and hellshriek when the chance permits.

My armies goal though is to defeat the enemy with the least amount of blood shed , kinda a chaos pacifist army.

My list is still in beta phase but centres on the hellcannons panic causing ability, backed up by hellshriek spells.

So far have caused 2 empire armies to flee wholesale thanks to the hellcannons ( funny thing is once one of their units flee's they hold back from combat to avoid being flank charged giving me another turn of shooting to cause more panic tests XD ).

tmarichards
04-10-2011, 12:59
Important to remember it cannot pivot on the spot and shoot though.

*runs*

SkawtheFalconer
04-10-2011, 13:26
Why is that Tom? doesn't it fire as a stone thrower, which can pivot and shoot?

tmarichards
04-10-2011, 13:42
It does indeed fire like a Stone Thrower, the rules for which can be found on pg 114.

Upon which there is nothing about being able to pivot on the spot and shoot, that comes on pg 109 under "Shooting with war machines". So, it isn't because it is a Stone Thrower that a Stone Thrower can pivot and shoot, it's because it is a war machine, which the Hellcannon explicitly is not, and it also explicitly cannot move and shoot (as per the FAQ).

However, there is a large school of thought that because something fires like a Stone Thrower, it fires like a war machine, even though those are 2 different sections of the rulebook. But, the rulebook does say, "before you fire your war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target", NOT "before you fire your monster and handler that fires like a stone thrower..."

cheezypuff
04-10-2011, 18:54
hang on mate, u got the rules wrong, it doesnt ignore armour, but the mods make it -2 or ignore for the s10, nd it has terror all the time, also its been FAQ'd that because it counts as a monster it can still fire but takes rampage tests on ld4, which is quite cool ;)

cheezypuff
04-10-2011, 19:07
and the hellcannon is a monster, so it has a 180 degree line of sight as it counts as a single model

Djekar
04-10-2011, 21:03
Tom, via that logic it can stand and shoot and move and fire as well, so ... either way you're boned.

tmarichards
05-10-2011, 00:32
Tom, via that logic it can stand and shoot and move and fire as well, so ... either way you're boned.

From the FAQ:

Q. Can the Hellcannon move and fire? (p66)
A. No.

and

Q. Can the Hellcannon Stand and Shoot against chargers? (p66)
A. No.

Not sure why they felt they had to specify it couldn't Stand and Shoot against chargers though... maybe just so it can Stand and Shoot all those times it's not against chargers?

GodlessM
05-10-2011, 00:37
also its been FAQ'd that because it counts as a monster it can still fire but takes rampage tests on ld4, which is quite cool ;)

No it hasn't. Check the rules, check the FAQs. Monsters and Handlers may not use the Handlers stats except for Leadership.


and the hellcannon is a monster, so it has a 180 degree line of sight as it counts as a single model

Nice rule you made up there. Nothing in the game has 180 LOS.

tmarichards
05-10-2011, 00:40
I think you misread that post GodlessM sweetie, it's pretty clear that he meant after the handlers have been killed.

EvilFuzzyDoom
05-10-2011, 01:29
+++ Threadomancy detected. Exterminatus commencing in 5... 4... 3...+++

Djekar
05-10-2011, 05:51
My point stands Tom. Since it follows the rules about standing and shooing as well as the rules about moving and shooting, it stands to reason that it follows the other stonethrower rules as well.

I mean, I'm not really arguing that the Hellcannon needs to be better and I'll be damned if mine doesn't have LoS to everything anyways, but still...

10_minute_pie
05-10-2011, 17:37
It's only barely worth its points

I don't know what hellcannon you're playing with, but my hellcannon is my most reliable units. It's an absolute work horse. It's phenomenal at taking out monsters (in can easily 1 shot kill a warsphinx). It chews through infantry (it has better stats that a daemon prince or chaos lord, and it thunder stomps). It wrecks 2+ save cavalry with shooting. It has a surprisingly forgiving misfire chart that can actually outright win you the game if you for the "Everyone mistcasts" misfire, and you're also running the infernal puppet. And like you mentioned, its a really reliable flank holder due to unbreakable. It's only real weaknesses are poison and other artillary.

Overall, the cannon is really cheap, and basically does everything really well.

popisdead
05-10-2011, 18:17
There isn't a downside to the Helcannon other than it's not a Special choice :P

Harwammer
05-10-2011, 19:52
Being rare is not a downside. There's very little competition in rare (unlike special which has loads of goodies... was gonna list them but saying "anything but forsaken" is quicker :p). It's not like you need 3 of the things.

Honestly, I don't even take the Panda Cannon of Doom combo (pandaemonium, hell cannon, doom totem) anymore as it just feels like you're wasting your time by deploying the rest of your army when its the panda cannon of doom which is removing all your opponents good stuff before he can cast/get into combat.

sulla
06-10-2011, 19:24
...Before I get my first turn in the case of my beastmen a couple of times.

Trustey
06-10-2011, 19:43
Posting in a necro thread... anyway

Why do people consider 2 Hellcannons OP when it's the only thing WoC has for the shooting phase? Are we not allowed to do anything but move infantry slowly across the board while other armies outshoot and outmanuever us?

brother_maynard
07-10-2011, 02:16
Check my latest battle report in my bat rep thread and you'll see why 2 could be considered a little much

shakedown47
07-10-2011, 06:10
Posting in a necro thread... anyway

Why do people consider 2 Hellcannons OP when it's the only thing WoC has for the shooting phase? Are we not allowed to do anything but move infantry slowly across the board while other armies outshoot and outmanuever us?

Play against a Bret player with two trebuchets that focus-fire your strongest unit each turn. Then, pretend that the trebuchet crew would flip your marauder horsemen upside down in the case of a combat. Then, pretend that 1/3rd of the time the trebuchet's misfire result will be devestating to YOUR army. After all of that, pretend that the two trebuchets are over 400 points of pure, sweet points denial that you can either ignore or commit a large part of your army to TRYING to get.

That's why two Hellcannons is strictly a 'Ard Boyz/people you never want to play against again option, because it's broken as hell. Block of Armour- Piercing Black Guard? Two Hellcannons. Witch Elf horde? Two Hellcannons. Greater Daemon generals? Two Hellcannons. And on and on. When you don't need to do anything more tactical than spend a bill on two models to systematically pick apart your opponent's best unit, it's time to look at different options IMO.

And yes I'm a WoC player, and I hardly go to battle without my trusty daemonic artillery :) Just one though.

brother_maynard
07-10-2011, 12:05
Play against a Bret player with two trebuchets that focus-fire your strongest unit each turn. Then, pretend that the trebuchet crew would flip your marauder horsemen upside down in the case of a combat. Then, pretend that 1/3rd of the time the trebuchet's misfire result will be devestating to YOUR army. After all of that, pretend that the two trebuchets are over 400 points of pure, sweet points denial that you can either ignore or commit a large part of your army to TRYING to get.

this is a great analogy shakedown, it gave me a good laugh. also factor in that not only does it force a panic check (already a very powerful ability), but at -1 LD!

The Dragonslayer
07-10-2011, 12:23
A number of situations arise vs my bretonnian army:
A shot in the big lance:chance for 500 point unit without characters to flee of the board...
misfire: drop a str 10 template eradicating 6-9 knights depemdin on the mood of the lady...
funner outcome: missfire- cause misscast on my wizards, which incidently are in the middle of a unit for no less than a 10 knight casualty (2 damsels and funny puppet)
Thats one side. on top of that is a 6/6 monster...

Deroga
07-10-2011, 15:05
Against another army with artillary, particularily cannons, or initiative test or die spells, it becomes a free 410 points. That is ALOT of points to cover ground on.

The shooting ability of the hell cannon is so unreliable for me that i will use the hell cannon as a monster most of the time, he is alot more dependable this way. I have had him eat himself or eat all his handlers and run around doing nothing all game as often as i have had it get direct hits on the enemy unit. I will only shoot if i get first turn vs dwarves or empire, cus the cannons will usually be dead before they reach combat. Even against dark elves i would rather use it as a monster handler on the flanks to ward off those dang hydra.

GenerationTerrorist
07-10-2011, 21:53
I use my Hellcannon(s) for the simple purpose of anchoring an entire flank by themselves.
People are, rightly, scared of hitting them in close combat.

If they cause Miscasts that make my Sorcerers explode, or eat themselves, or don't do what I want them to do, then I put it down to the will of Tzeentch.

Hellcannons are utterly mental. The perfect identity, in a single unit, of what a Chaos army should be about.

People who complain about them really don't understand how painful it was at times to be a WoC player for those bleak years in 7th Edition. Now Hellcannons, Chosen and the basic Warrior are exactly what they should always have been, and are (IMHO) adequately priced in terms of points for what they give.

Trustey
07-10-2011, 22:51
Play against a Bret player with two trebuchets that focus-fire your strongest unit each turn. Then, pretend that the trebuchet crew would flip your marauder horsemen upside down in the case of a combat. Then, pretend that 1/3rd of the time the trebuchet's misfire result will be devestating to YOUR army. After all of that, pretend that the two trebuchets are over 400 points of pure, sweet points denial that you can either ignore or commit a large part of your army to TRYING to get.

That's why two Hellcannons is strictly a 'Ard Boyz/people you never want to play against again option, because it's broken as hell. Block of Armour- Piercing Black Guard? Two Hellcannons. Witch Elf horde? Two Hellcannons. Greater Daemon generals? Two Hellcannons. And on and on. When you don't need to do anything more tactical than spend a bill on two models to systematically pick apart your opponent's best unit, it's time to look at different options IMO.

And yes I'm a WoC player, and I hardly go to battle without my trusty daemonic artillery :) Just one though.

I see your points and raise you a "now pretend".

Now pretend you are a bret and in addition to two trebuchets focus firing the enemies best unit you bought 6 questing knights with a +2 AS and a banner giving them a 4+ save vs the HC's, even the 10 str template hit, and they reroll the panic test caused by HC even in the absence of BSB. Or two trebuchets and a lvl 4 Lady hitting their best unit with dwellers and no fear of miscast. For less than the cost of two hellcannons. And pretend when you win you get to say "Herderp I beat an overpowered list I should have refused to play in the first place!"

Rosstifer
08-10-2011, 02:51
I see your points and raise you a "now pretend".

Now pretend you are a bret and in addition to two trebuchets focus firing the enemies best unit you bought 6 questing knights with a +2 AS and a banner giving them a 4+ save vs the HC's, even the 10 str template hit, and they reroll the panic test caused by HC even in the absence of BSB. Or two trebuchets and a lvl 4 Lady hitting their best unit with dwellers and no fear of miscast. For less than the cost of two hellcannons. And pretend when you win you get to say "Herderp I beat an overpowered list I should have refused to play in the first place!"

Is this complaining about Brets?! Okay, they aren't as hopeless as people make them out to be, but they aren't exactly OP.

sulla
08-10-2011, 04:51
Posting in a necro thread... anyway

Why do people consider 2 Hellcannons OP when it's the only thing WoC has for the shooting phase? Are we not allowed to do anything but move infantry slowly across the board while other armies outshoot and outmanuever us?s5 template shooting is just OP in this edition. Not just hellcannons, grudge throwers or trebs, but all s5 templates. Even my hydras or skaven warpfire throwers breath weapon is OP, although much less powerful due to shorter range and other factors, but taking off buckets of infantry from a single shot is just out of step with most ranged damage in the game. Imagine if 200pts of ballistic skill troops could do the same ranged damage as a hellcannon...imagine if 90pts of ranged troops could do the same damage as a treb!!!


Yes, I know there are some spells that, likewise, do disproportionate damage compared to most lores, but I would say those spells are similarly out of step.

If hellcannons were s4, caused panic to anything it hit, counted as war machines but t10 vs shooting and the cannon could attack in cc with the stats of a daemon prince as well as the crew, it would be much more in step with the 8th edition... and the crew would have a reason to be on the board other than as ward saves for the cannon.

10_minute_pie
08-10-2011, 18:30
I see your points and raise you a "now pretend".

Now pretend you are a bret and in addition to two trebuchets focus firing the enemies best unit you bought 6 questing knights with a +2 AS and a banner giving them a 4+ save vs the HC's, even the 10 str template hit, and they reroll the panic test caused by HC even in the absence of BSB. Or two trebuchets and a lvl 4 Lady hitting their best unit with dwellers and no fear of miscast. For less than the cost of two hellcannons. And pretend when you win you get to say "Herderp I beat an overpowered list I should have refused to play in the first place!"

The best part of this pretend though is that if said questing knights were to make it into CC with the Cannon, it would out fight them and devour them in 2 turns.

Trustey
08-10-2011, 20:51
The best part of this pretend though is that if said questing knights were to make it into CC with the Cannon, it would out fight them and devour them in 2 turns.

Well then they shouldn't should they? They should just take their ward saves vs the shooting and facerape everything else on the board...



Is this complaining about Brets?! Okay, they aren't as hopeless as people make them out to be, but they aren't exactly OP.

Nope not complaining about brets, complaining about people who complain about 2 HC when they can afford just as powerful options for less, such as 2 trebuchets and a lvl 4 lady spamming dwellers with no miscasts for example. I'm aware Brets aren't that powerful, that's why they make such a great example. Other armies can do much worse with 410 points... and have even less reason to bawww about 2 HC.