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Quahua
22-09-2009, 14:15
Okay, heres the problem: when I play against Tomb Kings, my friend always has his king as buffed as possible, and Skeleton units way too big to wipe out in CC.
When I play against him, i usually lose beacuse of this kind of points denial. I cant get the points out of those two, which usually means not getting about 630 pts. Also the ushabts are a pain, he plays 2-3 three ushabt units.

Any ideas?

E:I play Warriors.

Lijacote
22-09-2009, 14:26
Not enough details. What else does he take? What army are YOU playing? and so on.

Flank it with a bloodthirster

Quahua
22-09-2009, 14:34
Oh, I forgot my army. I play WoC. More details:
TK is usually armed with chariot of fire, flail of skulls, and collar of shapesh.
Usually he also has three priests, two skullpults, 1-2 scrops, two skeleton archers 10 strong, tomb scrarabs, and light horsemen to guide my frenzy-fellows out of table. Thats about it.

E: I usually use sorc lord, two normal sorc, an exa, small maras, two units of knights, maybe a dogre unit, and slaanesh spawns.

Enigmatik1
22-09-2009, 14:41
Edited because you answered my question earlier:

For all intents and purposes, you should be mopping the floor with his units as WoC. Your units are VASTLY superior to anything he can put on the table across the board. Having said that, a Chariot King with the Flail of Skulls is no joke, as you've found out.

What do you usually run in your lists?

The easiest way to deal with Skeleton blocks is either to ignore them or throw units at them with a lot of reliable, decent attacks if you just have to deal with them. Skeletons are terrible at generating ACR. So to win and start causing crumbling, you'll need to do at least 6 wounds assuming full command on the unit. If you can't reliably overcome the +5 SCR of skeletons with the unit(s) in question...don't bother. Luckily, most of your units can do this easily.

Another way for dealing with TK problem units is magic. Despite being such a magic-reliant army, TK is woefully inadequate on magic defense. Don't bother with a Slaaneshi caster, unless it's a Sorc Lord...but even then, Tzeentch or Nurgle are better choices (although Ecstatic Seizures can really ruin an Undead player's day and Hysterical Frenzy is a good way of getting Frenzy on your units when you need it without having to pay for MoK).

Go after his Priests, especially his Hierophant. They are soft, very expensive and make the army tick while having little to no offensive power of their own. Buboes and Flickering Fire are your friends...especially since he mistakenly gives his King the Collar of Shapesh instead of his Hiero. ;)

If he's a good guesser, catapults can be devastating. However, he probably has his skeleton archers guarding his catapults so sending a Disc Rider after them could be very risky.

Ushabti are easy to deal with if you have shooting. Sadly, WoC doesn't save the Hellcannon. Still, they have T4 and a 5+ armor save. Magic missile them off the table. Hell, any of your other units aside from Marauders can probably take them in CC.

Axis
22-09-2009, 14:58
chaos knights+combat character should do the trick.

Chaos lord + hellfire sword does some mean things to TK.

zerachiel
22-09-2009, 15:26
Well, if you're all cavalry, I can see how you can struggle- your Knights have no SCR save a banner and always run the risk of outnumber-autobreak. I'd recommend Warrior blocks, as Tomb Kings is slow as molasses anyway. Run the Warriors 6-wide, give them extra hand weapons, and just charge them from the front. When the skeletons are held up, flank them with Knights and the combined combat res should kill the unit unless he takes them 50-strong or something insane like that.

Ushabti are only T4, if your Sorcerer Lord is Tzeentch then you should have no problem magick-ing them into the ground. Failing that, a charging unit of Knights can handle them with some pre-emptive magic nuking. Since he runs 2-3 units (likely up the flanks), I'd suggest you run 2 units of Knights down one flank and try to dual-charge to prevent a counter-charge on his turn.

If all else fails, give your Warriors the Mark of Khorne and two hand weapons and let them play themselves. :) That many attacks will kill the Skeletons barring insanely bad luck.

Enigmatik1
22-09-2009, 15:28
Skeletons are so bad in combat, you don't need the extra Frenzy attack. Save yourself the points and go MoS and additional hand weapons. :D

Also, Tomb Kings are only slow if you can stop them from moving in the magic phase. An unhindered TK army will be just as fast as his cavalry force! Arguably faster considering 8" move + 16" charges in one turn. Don't underestimate this. I got the few victories I've gotten thus far w/ my TKs because my opponents thought I was slow. Don't make the same mistake.

PeG
22-09-2009, 15:59
huge skeleton units also have huge flanks. If you can get a unit into the flank they usually die really fast. Even if there are 50 of them you should win combat with lots from kills+ flanks against his outnumber. Get a block of warriors or chosen in the front and flank him with something hard (which WoC has lots of).

Use your magic to kill his casters, flickering fire should do it unless they are in a unit and buboes if he tries to hide them. To do this in a reliable way you need several casters.

AndyGI
22-09-2009, 16:10
zerachiel, Chaos Knights cause fear so shouldn't have to worry about the auto-break.

I would recommend 6 wide Chaos Warriors with Mark of Slaanesh or Nurgle (Slaanesh for fear-immunity, Nurgle to make them 5+ to hit in CC) with either 2 hand weapons for more attacks, or halberds for str 5 (skellies are T3, right?)

15 attacks at 3's to hit, 2's to kill or 22 attacks at 3's to hit, 3's to kill.

dem bones, dem bones.....

Malorian
22-09-2009, 16:40
zerachiel, Chaos Knights cause fear so shouldn't have to worry about the auto-break.

I would recommend 6 wide Chaos Warriors with Mark of Slaanesh or Nurgle (Slaanesh for fear-immunity, Nurgle to make them 5+ to hit in CC) with either 2 hand weapons for more attacks, or halberds for str 5 (skellies are T3, right?)

15 attacks at 3's to hit, 2's to kill or 22 attacks at 3's to hit, 3's to kill.

dem bones, dem bones.....

Skeletons are already hitting on 5+ (ws2 vs ws5) so it isn't needed, and slaanesh isn't really needed given that you are sure to win combat and have high leadership.

Personally I'd give them the mark of khorne if anything. Undead can't flee so there is no risk of baiting, you will be ItP when you charge, and that extra attack just means that many more dead skellies :evilgrin:

Enigmatik1
22-09-2009, 17:10
Skeletons are already hitting on 5+ (ws2 vs ws5) so it isn't needed, and slaanesh isn't really needed given that you are sure to win combat and have high leadership.

Personally I'd give them the mark of khorne if anything. Undead can't flee so there is no risk of baiting, you will be ItP when you charge, and that extra attack just means that many more dead skellies :evilgrin:

No, they can't flee...but Light Horsemen can easily kite frenzied units around the battlefield provided provided the chasing units don't have superior movement...which they won't in this case barring Steeds of Slaanesh or Discs of Tzeentch which require units/characters not marked Khorne. And even if you spend a round magicking them down, you're still doing the TK player a favor because they're our throw away units (that cost more than twice as much as warhounds, but still...lol).

Just because Undead can't flee doesn't mean they can't bait. :evilgrin:

I don't think he can go wrong with either Mark. I just think Slaanesh is more reliable, more controllable and more importantly, is cheaper. If you're going to Mark anything Khorne, I'd suggest it be Marauders. They really could use the ItP aspect of Frenzy and the extra attack. On Warriors, Chosen, Knights it's just excessive overkill honestly. Additional hand weapons are enough for them unless you face Tomb Guard.

Malorian
22-09-2009, 17:18
Just because Undead can't flee doesn't mean they can't bait. :evilgrin:

Ok granted but they can only do so much. If the TK player is going as elite as the OP says then he won't really have them many light cav to bait with (I'm guessing just 1) while the entire khorne army barrels down.

And of course you can always block those baits with your own hounds (infront of your own units so they can't chage).

What you need is killy and that's what khorne gives you.

zerachiel
22-09-2009, 17:38
zerachiel, Chaos Knights cause fear so shouldn't have to worry about the auto-break.

I would recommend 6 wide Chaos Warriors with Mark of Slaanesh or Nurgle (Slaanesh for fear-immunity, Nurgle to make them 5+ to hit in CC) with either 2 hand weapons for more attacks, or halberds for str 5 (skellies are T3, right?)

15 attacks at 3's to hit, 2's to kill or 22 attacks at 3's to hit, 3's to kill.

dem bones, dem bones.....

Oh yeah, forgot that they caused Fear. However, with no ranks and likely to be outnumbered, they'll still break easily enough. They're also only 2 attacks apiece without MoK, while Warriors can use 1 point to get another attack through a second hand weapon, and that was what I was mostly trying to get across.


Skeletons are so bad in combat, you don't need the extra Frenzy attack. Save yourself the points and go MoS and additional hand weapons. :D

Also, Tomb Kings are only slow if you can stop them from moving in the magic phase. An unhindered TK army will be just as fast as his cavalry force! Arguably faster considering 8" move + 16" charges in one turn. Don't underestimate this. I got the few victories I've gotten thus far w/ my TKs because my opponents thought I was slow. Don't make the same mistake.

TK can be fast with their incantations, but the TK player in question is running a King for his Lord choice, while the WoC is running a Sorcerer Lord plus another Sorc at least. That should give him the DD to stop 2 incantations, and maybe a scroll or two. The TK will likely need to throw incantations to raise skeletons after close combat is met anyway.

Enigmatik1
22-09-2009, 18:27
All I'm saying is that we're talking about Skeletons and marking all your units MoK is downright wasteful on models that already are armored to the gills, armed to the teeth, have multiple attacks and have good stats like Chaos Warriors. Depending on how many units we're talking here, the OP could save himself in excess of 100 points and still annihilate the Skeletons in CC.

What are the chances that a unit of 12+ Chaos Warriors with frontage of 6, regardless of Mark, with additional hand weapons (you don't need the shield anyway) are going to lose combat to Skeletons? You're talking 19 WS5, S4 attacks. That's a whole mess of dead skellies, barring insane luck..which you can't plan around. Marking things Khorne is only really necessary, or warranted in my thrifty view of unit points (admittedly scarred by the very same Tomb Kings army) if you just have to be swinging around 2handed weapons.

Malorian
22-09-2009, 18:33
The problem is that you need to win by a big amount. The OP has struggled to kill off these big blocks before either a) they are healed, or b) the end of the game, so increasing the killing power of your troops to the max is exactly what he is looking for.

Enigmatik1
22-09-2009, 20:42
I'm sorry. I let my abject hatred of combat Skeletons skew my judgment and obviously, my reading comprehension. I'll try being more objective. :D

Based on Avian's Unit Combat Calculator, a frontage of 6x2 Chaos Warriors with additional hand weapon will generally win combat by 2 against combat (ROFLMAO) skeletons (HW/LA/Shield). They'll win by 4 with the additional attack from being Frenzied. Regardless of whether they're charged or not.

Either way, this Skeleton unit probably carries the Banner of the Undying Legion which can undo the combat resolution casualties of either scenario since we roll 2D6 and keep the highest for re-animating Skeletons (because they're terrible and expensive...haha). But he is still taking 7-9 straight casualties per turn in close combat before the combat res, unless his Priests are also spamming Djedra's on the unit.

His opponent runs a rather elite list himself, 2 units of Ushabti (that's just shy of 200 points per unit of 3), 2 Scorpions and 2 SSCs...meaning this Skeleton unit is the only source of SCR he has. And after a unit of chariots and a swarm base or two, he has just enough points for a 30 skeleton sponge unit.

Simple solution...ignore the Skeletons with your melee combatants unless you're set up for a good combined charge. Don't even bother with them and kill everything else. They move 4"x2 if they're lucky...your units move 7-8"x2 with no luck involved since he didn't take Carrion to marchblock. Your casters are key here to weaken the tougher units like the Chariots, Ushabti and Scorpions and stop him from putting his units where he wants them to be.

Skeletons blow. Skeletons can't win combats to save their unlives but the last thing you want to let happen is for any of your killy units to get bogged down in endless combats with a 30+ skeleton unit with the BotL and Priests spamming Summoning on it. If you don't let that happen, he's going to be hard pressed to beat you again...barring lucky catapult shots (which hurt like hell) or his King going on a rampage.

If anything, I'd say your biggest concern should be his twin catapults, Scorpions and his King. SSCs are nasty and if he's decent a guessing and the dice are kind to him, those things can crack the toughest nuts in the game (provided they aren't immune to flaming attacks).

Axis
23-09-2009, 01:00
I have to admit i'm a touch confused about just quite what his opponent is running. So if i miss the point then please be nice :).

Also can someone explain just what you mean by kiting the knights with light horsemen, i do not quite understand this.

I will say that frenzied chaos knights can rape absolutely anything bar the king. Provided you get into combat obviously.

6 Frenzied knights have 18 WS5 S5 attacks and 12 WS3 S4 attacks. Against skeletons from the front (even with LA+shield) you are going to kill a lot. You'll be killing 9-13 per combat. Then another few crumble, since he has no BSB (that i can tell), you are looking at 5-9 more crumbling. So you are looking at roughly 14-22 dead skeletons in a phase (obviously the upper end requires quite good luck).

They'll kill ushabti just as easily.

However, the general strategy should be to kill priests (the heirophant if possible). That will make is that much easier to stop the resurrecting.

zerachiel
23-09-2009, 01:52
I'm sorry. I let my abject hatred of combat Skeletons skew my judgment and obviously, my reading comprehension. I'll try being more objective. :D

Based on Avian's Unit Combat Calculator, a frontage of 6x2 Chaos Warriors with additional hand weapon will generally win combat by 2 against combat (ROFLMAO) skeletons (HW/LA/Shield). They'll win by 4 with the additional attack from being Frenzied. Regardless of whether they're charged or not.

Either way, this Skeleton unit probably carries the Banner of the Undying Legion which can undo the combat resolution casualties of either scenario since we roll 2D6 and keep the highest for re-animating Skeletons (because they're terrible and expensive...haha). But he is still taking 7-9 straight casualties per turn in close combat before the combat res, unless his Priests are also spamming Djedra's on the unit.

His opponent runs a rather elite list himself, 2 units of Ushabti (that's just shy of 200 points per unit of 3), 2 Scorpions and 2 SSCs...meaning this Skeleton unit is the only source of SCR he has. And after a unit of chariots and a swarm base or two, he has just enough points for a 30 skeleton sponge unit.

Simple solution...ignore the Skeletons with your melee combatants unless you're set up for a good combined charge. Don't even bother with them and kill everything else. They move 4"x2 if they're lucky...your units move 7-8"x2 with no luck involved since he didn't take Carrion to marchblock. Your casters are key here to weaken the tougher units like the Chariots, Ushabti and Scorpions and stop him from putting his units where he wants them to be.

Skeletons blow. Skeletons can't win combats to save their unlives but the last thing you want to let happen is for any of your killy units to get bogged down in endless combats with a 30+ skeleton unit with the BotL and Priests spamming Summoning on it. If you don't let that happen, he's going to be hard pressed to beat you again...barring lucky catapult shots (which hurt like hell) or his King going on a rampage.

If anything, I'd say your biggest concern should be his twin catapults, Scorpions and his King. SSCs are nasty and if he's decent a guessing and the dice are kind to him, those things can crack the toughest nuts in the game (provided they aren't immune to flaming attacks).

I'm also a little confused as to how he's having trouble coping with Skeletons. My guess is that his list is low on number of units and high on gear, and as a result do not have the unit numbers to lock everything the TK player fields. Having free units when all of the opponent's units are in combat is a huge advantage, and the TK player likely then use his remaining, agile units that escaped combat to focus on one combat at a time, break the opposition, and then move onto the next.

If he just invests in more Warriors and small units of Marauders (!), I'm confident he would not have trouble against TK. The best antidote to fast cavalry and other such fast movers is to have a solid wall of units moving across the table, making it impossible for them to sneak through and forcing them to fight you from the front. Your small units of Marauders with Flails can then hang back a few inches to charge deep striking Scorpions, prevent his Light Cavalry/Chariots from getting behind you, or take flanks.

...Yeah, I play WoC like an Empire army.

Enigmatik1
23-09-2009, 02:36
I have to admit i'm a touch confused about just quite what his opponent is running. So if i miss the point then please be nice :).

Also can someone explain just what you mean by kiting the knights with light horsemen, i do not quite understand this.

I will say that frenzied chaos knights can rape absolutely anything bar the king. Provided you get into combat obviously.

6 Frenzied knights have 18 WS5 S5 attacks and 12 WS3 S4 attacks. Against skeletons from the front (even with LA+shield) you are going to kill a lot. You'll be killing 9-13 per combat. Then another few crumble, since he has no BSB (that i can tell), you are looking at 5-9 more crumbling. So you are looking at roughly 14-22 dead skeletons in a phase (obviously the upper end requires quite good luck).

They'll kill ushabti just as easily.

However, the general strategy should be to kill priests (the heirophant if possible). That will make is that much easier to stop the resurrecting.

This is basically what I'm saying...I'm just clouding it with Skeleton hate.

The only dissenting opinion I have is that the MoK is redundant. Chaos Warriors, Dragon Ogres (can't have MoK, I know) or Knights can plow through Skeletons almost as easily without MoK than they can with. MoK is only really netting you 2 additional casualties for what? The cost of two more Warriors (I don't remember).

Either way, you're winning combats and causing massive additional casualties via combat resolution. The caveat here, is if he's just hell bent on trying to off this unit in one turn, then MoK is a good choice. All I'm saying it isn't the only way to get the job done. :D

An ultra elite WoC army is one of the few armies I think TK can outnumber. Model count on TK armies tend to be rather low for us having such bad troops statistically (once again, TK TROOPS ARE TOO <SELF MOD> EXPENSIVE, GW! *This message brought to you by the Enigmatik1 Foundation for Reasonable Skeleton Prices*). The only armies that I'm not outnumbered by are all armored Chaos Warriors, Gnoblar-less Ogres and High Elves.

Invest those points spent on Dragon Ogres, which I like in application even if I hate the models, and beef up your infantry lines. Focus your magic on his characters as Axis said whenever possible and soften up harder targets when not. TK really has little to no hope against a magic heavy WoC army when things get into CC mode, as I said earlier, unless the King gets hot and goes on a killing spree.

Edit: What I mean by kiting is leading a frenzied unit around the battlefield using superior movement and maneuverability. Light Horsemen are good at this despite not being able to flee because of the Fast Cavalry reform and Liche Priest Incanting additional movement. With such a small WoC army, it wouldn't be that hard unless the WoC player uses Hounds as counter screens...which I don't think he does.

Axis
23-09-2009, 03:44
I agree about MoK on warriors being unnecessary but on knights it adds so much devastation. On 6 knights it gives an additional 12 attacks (half at S5, half at S4). Also against TK, provided you are winning combat already, an extra 2 casualties equates to an extra 4 dead skellies.

Thanks for the description of kiting. I think it does pose a slight problem for things like knights but it is not as effective as normal fast cav. Nonetheless, it is something the WoC must be wary of.

Enigmatik1
23-09-2009, 13:30
Also against TK, provided you are winning combat already, an extra 2 casualties equates to an extra 4 dead skellies.


Shhhh! I'm trying to give the TK player SOME chance once the OP tweaks his list! ;)

While I respect/like WoC greatly, I'll always be a native of Khemri. :D

AndyGI
24-09-2009, 11:05
How many skeletons do Tomb Kings get, for 200 points? Inc Full command?

Enigmatik1
24-09-2009, 13:21
How many skeletons do Tomb Kings get, for 200 points? Inc Full command?

Let the "how many skeletons does it take to win combat" jokes begin! :D

Short, surly answer: Not anywhere close to enough! :mad:

Sincere answer without potentially breaking any rules: For that amount of points you get about a "standard" unit if you take full command.

Skyth
24-09-2009, 15:19
Granted, I'm a fan of Slaanesh, but 5 Knights will do (On average) 6.1 Casaulties (With 5 SCR for the Skeles and 1 for the Knights, that means a win by 2, so 8 dead skeles). If you get hysterical frenzy off on the knights, then you are doing 10 casaulties, win by 6, so 16 skeles...Which should be enough to rip units apart.

Another idea is a spawn to stick them, then hit them in the flank with knights, which will result in 7.5 casaulties, winning by that much, so about 16 dead per round.