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Herod
23-09-2009, 16:22
Does anyone play that the Prodder goes off every magic phase? (Including your opponents)

"It fires one blast each magic phase." p.38

H

rtunian
23-09-2009, 17:44
very good question!
it doesn't say "friendly" magic phase, does it...

since it's a bound item that you have to pick the target of, as opposed to a remains in play spell (there are rip spells that affect every magic phase), i'm inclined to say that you have to have control of the turn in order to perform an action that requires you to pick a target.

that's just my gut feeling, and not a definitive answer.

anyone know of a non-rip spell/bound item that requires you to pick a target, that indeed goes off 12 times per game (assuming a long lived char of course) ??

Herod
23-09-2009, 18:25
very good question!
it doesn't say "friendly" magic phase, does it...

since it's a bound item that you have to pick the target of, as opposed to a remains in play spell (there are rip spells that affect every magic phase), i'm inclined to say that you have to have control of the turn in order to perform an action that requires you to pick a target.

that's just my gut feeling, and not a definitive answer.

anyone know of a non-rip spell/bound item that requires you to pick a target, that indeed goes off 12 times per game (assuming a long lived char of course) ??

That is my "gut feeling" as well, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't short changing myself. Skarsnik would be -really- good if that were the case. "Each magic phase" is a weird way to phrase it though.

H

EvC
23-09-2009, 18:25
You generally cast spells in your own magic phases. This does not explicitly state otherwise, so don't.

Da GoBBo
24-09-2009, 18:21
I pretty much agree that's what is meant, but it is not what the rule says. "Each magic phase" is quiet abvious and I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way than "one blast each magic phase" (meaning you get to make a shot during the opponents magic phase as well).

theunwantedbeing
24-09-2009, 20:55
page 121
The spell held in a magic item is cast in the players magic phase just like other spells

Bound items are therefore only usable in your own magic phase, not the enemies.
So despite the item saying "each magic phase" it means each of the controlling players magic phases, not each players magic phase.

Da GoBBo
24-09-2009, 21:20
I agree. Than again, core rule versus army rule, seems pretty solid to me.

kramplarv
24-09-2009, 22:02
but in this case the rules don't contradicts each other. they go hand in hand, and they actually complete each other. :)

Da GoBBo
25-09-2009, 11:55
The item description is a mess. You basically have a boundspellitem that casts a halberd (?) and allows the prodder to fire one blast each magic phase etc... ones the spell has been cast. If I cast it twice, do I double the effect? It seems to say so. Like I said, a mess. Let's try to make something of it.

If the prodder would work like any other boundspell, there would be no need to point that out (that it can be used in the normal way -during the players magic phase-). This item, however, works different. At least, that's what one can deduct from the use of the phrase "each magic phase" (not just friendly, not just enemy, each magic phase". Why choose to ignore this?

EvC
25-09-2009, 12:54
Basic education?

Sorry ;)

Ganymede
25-09-2009, 18:58
This item, however, works different. At least, that's what one can deduct from the use of the phrase "each magic phase" (not just friendly, not just enemy, each magic phase". Why choose to ignore this?

We could also deduce that GW was simply being redundant with their wording.

Since GW doesn't have a penchant for rule language of the subtlety you suggest, I'd rather go with my suggested deduction.

picantes pantelones
27-09-2009, 04:43
The prodder is the only bound item I can find in any of the armybooks I own that states "If fires one blast in each magic phase". The other items don't even specify when you use them. They just say cast. We just play them as bounds spells that are cast in one phase, ours. Why did they add this sentence to this item, and no other, if they did not mean each. RAW leads me to believe that each means both magic phases.

And Lets be honest, its a frickin goblin army! Why wouldn't they have something a little wacky that works in every magic phase. They do crazy stuff and frankly need something with a little umph to help em out. Maybe it was the intention of the writer to give Skarsnik a little edge by adding in the every phase sentence. Unfortunately, our interpretations of the written rules get in the way of what was actually written.

This is why GW drives me nuts. At least with Privateer and FOW when something like this comes up you can get an official answer. You ask on the forums and a MOD makes an official ruling that is taken as law. GW gives us nothing. Crappy FAQs and no official rulings. Thanks.

Bloodless
27-09-2009, 05:24
The item is just worded poorly. There is no item in the game that casts magic in the other players magic phase. As a player you only have one magic phase... your own. The only thing you may do in your opponents magic phase is dispell.

Urgat
27-09-2009, 05:35
Let's be honest, casting during the enemy magic phase is way out of the ordinary, so if the prodder was supposed to do that, the rules would be explicit about it, with something like "including the enemy magic phase" in there.

I guess.


...


Then again...

Ward decided to remove things like "common" from common gobs to make things clearer, or deciding not to specify what kind of terrain "features" kill fanatics, for the sake of shorter rules...
Oh ok, I'm not so convinced by my own argument, that book being such an appaling writing job.

Let's just say that regardless, it probably works like usual, but its rules have been written by that dude, and so that sums it up.

I wish they fired him.

DarkAngelsG
27-09-2009, 07:03
If it does not say "during FRIENDLY magic phase" then it is during ALL magic phases. I have tons of spells that say something to that effect.

But this also means that every time it goes off, your opponent(s) have a chance to dispel it.

rtunian
27-09-2009, 13:03
darkangels, if you had something in their magic phase, they would not dispel with dispel dice, they would have to dispel with power dice. for example, if you wanted to dispel a remains in play spell during your magic phase, you would have to use power dice to dispel it. if you miscast and your opponent gets a free spell, you can use power dice to dispel it.

which makes it seem even more unlikely that skarsnik's prodder works in both phases.

i doubt you have any spells that say that you can cast in all magic phases. but i would like to see at least 1 example of what you base your post on.......

Lord Dan
27-09-2009, 18:09
page 121
The spell held in a magic item is cast in the players magic phase just like other spells

Bound items are therefore only usable in your own magic phase, not the enemies.
So despite the item saying "each magic phase" it means each of the controlling players magic phases, not each players magic phase.

I thought this needed to be quoted, because some people obviously didn't read it.

Da GoBBo
27-09-2009, 19:19
I did, but since when can't a rule be overwritten?

I agree btw that the prodder should not do anything during the opponents magic phase, but let's put it like this: if someone is new to GWs quirky ways, that player has no reason to assume the prodder can't be used during the opponents magic phase.

EvC
27-09-2009, 20:25
...you mean if they haven't read the above text in the rulebook about how to cast bound spells?

ashc
27-09-2009, 22:46
The prodder is a bound spell and hence follows all rules for bound spells (as quoted).

If it was an intended exception I feel that it would be explicitly stated.

picantes pantelones
27-09-2009, 23:32
The sentence "Fires in each magic phase" is pretty explicit. Not one or the other but each.
I have never played that it shoots in each phase but, according to how it is written it should be. I'll just chalk it up to poor wording.

Bloodless
27-09-2009, 23:44
If it does not say "during FRIENDLY magic phase" then it is during ALL magic phases. I have tons of spells that say something to that effect.

But this also means that every time it goes off, your opponent(s) have a chance to dispel it.

Really?:wtf: Each player only has one magic phase.

Lord Dan
28-09-2009, 00:47
The sentence "Fires in each magic phase" is pretty explicit

It's not remotely explicit. Sure, "Each" could refer to each (or every single) magic phase. Additionally it could mean each friendly magic phase. Or it could mean each enemy magic phase only. It could mean every magic phase ever played, even in other games.

Since it's so ambiguous the only way we can possibly play without so many interpretations is to revert to the ruling in the BRB, which is quoted on the previous page.

Da GoBBo
28-09-2009, 17:47
It's not remotely explicit. Sure, "Each" could refer to each (or every single) magic phase. Additionally it could mean each friendly magic phase. Or it could mean each enemy magic phase only. It could mean every magic phase ever played, even in other games.

"Each" means all the ones you just mentioned, that's the purpose of the word.


Since it's so ambiguous the only way we can possibly play without so many interpretations is to revert to the ruling in the BRB, which is quoted on the previous page.

So each time a rule might cover more than one specific situation, that rule is ambiguous and one should forget about that rule? How do you even play this game?

The description is quiet unique so there is no reason to assume it does not overrule the BRB. GW made a booboo (again). Live with it, make a houserule, pray for an errata, keep silent about it, use you common sense (which would result in the ruling most of you are proposing).

Bloodless
28-09-2009, 18:02
I would love to see someone try to use the prodder in their six magic phases, and their opponents magic phases during a tournament.:eyebrows:

Da GoBBo
28-09-2009, 18:21
Oh yes, I definitely agree with you there. That's not gonna work.

Lord Dan
29-09-2009, 16:04
"Each" means all the ones you just mentioned, that's the purpose of the word.

"Each" is based on entirely context. The only context we've been given here is "magic phase", which could mean either or both. Let me throw in some words to make it more specific

Each friendly magic phase
Each enemy magic phase
Each and every magic phase

"Each magic phase" could mean anything. There is nothing that explicitly states "each and every magic phase", which is what one should hope to expect with a rule that breaks the norm established in the BRB. All you have is vagueness, and vagueness doesn't make for rules.



So each time a rule might cover more than one specific situation, that rule is ambiguous and one should forget about that rule? How do you even play this game?

If it can cover more than one specific situation, it's obviously ambiguous. That said, I never said "forget the rule", but rather I say revert to the BRB instead of promoting your own interpretation.

orcsorks
29-09-2009, 17:24
I don't have the book in front of me, but the way I always read it was that it functioned exactly like a bound spell, except that you had to fire it every magic phase, hence the use of the word each meaning that during every magic phase when you could use a bound item, this item must be used.

Again, I don't have the book in front of me right now but that is how my gaming group and I always interpreted it.

orcsorks says: da monster that eat you, wins.

Da GoBBo
29-09-2009, 22:02
the way I always read it was that it functioned exactly like a bound spell, except that you had to fire it every magic phase, hence the use of the word each meaning that during every magic phase when you could use a bound item, this item must be used.

Yes, this idea has occured to me as well. ... ........ ... How do you know, this rule IS ambiguous :D


"Each magic phase" could mean anything. There is nothing that explicitly states "each and every magic phase", which is what one should hope to expect with a rule that breaks the norm established in the BRB. All you have is vagueness, and vagueness doesn't make for rules.

So when I refer to each car on the parkinglot I refer to each volkswagen, no wait, each volkswagonvan, no wait, each volkswagonvan painted with (blue) daisies? When I refer to each beautifull girl on the collegeground, I only refer to each beautifull redhead? ................. That doesn't make sense at all.

Avian
30-09-2009, 08:13
That's not a relevant comparison, that's why it makes no sense. ;)


A more relevant comparison would be if your local game store had a bin of blisters with the note "Blisters 50% off" stuck on it. Presumably that doesn't mean every blister in the store, or any blister in any store. It might, but it would be rather optimistic to assume so with no further specification. Given the context, you'd assume it was just those blisters in the bin the note was on.


Similarly, the Orc Boyz entry in the army book says "One unit in the army may be upgraded to Big 'Uns for +4 pts/model.". That might literally mean ANY unit in the army (it would in that case be a steal on Goblins), but given the context it probably does not mean that and just means "One unit of this type".

Or you can take Mork's Spirit-totem, which says "This magical banner adds a number of dispel dice to the pool equal to the unit's rank bonus." It doesn't SAY it only adds dice to the OWNING players pool, but without further specification, you would not expect it to give your opponent extra dice.


In the context of bound spells, which are used in your own magic phases, "each magic phase" is most likely to mean "each of the owning player's magic phases".

Condottiere
30-09-2009, 08:57
What we're looking for are, where are the boundaries? The designers keeping making the assumption that natural boundaries exist marked by common sense, which is either carelessness on their part or naivete.

Avian
30-09-2009, 10:59
Possibly, but often these threads have people acting like a person sitting in a sinking boat and complaining that "This bucket does not come with an instruction manual!". :D

Lots of rules can be made to look very difficult if people make an effort (see my Spirit-totem comment above, or dig up any Valkyrie discussion in the 40K Rules forum), but generally most people play it right by instinct. This edition of the game is now three years old, which means that all easter eggs have been found two and a half years ago. Anything you are in doubt about now can be solved by seeing how everyone else plays it, because by now that is the correct way.

EvC
30-09-2009, 13:30
So when I refer to each car on the parkinglot I refer to each volkswagen, no wait, each volkswagonvan, no wait, each volkswagonvan painted with (blue) daisies? When I refer to each beautifull girl on the collegeground, I only refer to each beautifull redhead? ................. That doesn't make sense at all.

If you have previously stated that you only ever consider redheads to be beautiful girls, then you go on to refer to beautiful girls, then yes, you would be referring to redheads whenever you talked about beautiful girls. Similarly if you can only drive automatic cars, and tell us you're going to buy a car, then you will most likely be buying an automatic car.

Context is everything, in other words.

In other words, you'd only think the Prodder works in the enemy magic phase if you are ignorant of the rules stating that bound spells only work in your own magic phases. And since you're not ignorant of that rule, you know the drill :D

Da GoBBo
30-09-2009, 18:58
Lots of rules can be made to look very difficult if people make an effort.

Hehe, to be honest that is the only thing I'm doing here. Please note I allready pointed out several times I agree with most of you on how it should be played. I just don't agree that that is also what the rule actually says.

Rather than comiiting ourselves to examples to situations that are or are not similar to this little gamesituation we have going, I will try to stay within the rules for the game itself. Here's another one for all of you. Reforming takes up all of your movement. Fast cavalry can reform while marching. Why? Because the rules for fast cavalry says so. ..... Bound spells can be casted the player's magic phase. The Prodder can cast it's spell every magic phase. Why? Because the rule for the prodder says so. Neither of these rules specificly state the normal rules for reforming or boundspells or overruled, yet for reforming we all assume this has to be done, but for the prodder we don't. Why is this? I'm guessing it's because this whole prodder thing would feel weird, but not because the rules says so. Again, GW botched this one.

Urgat
30-09-2009, 23:07
Similarly, the Orc Boyz entry in the army book says "One unit in the army may be upgraded to Big 'Uns for +4 pts/model.". That might literally mean ANY unit in the army (it would in that case be a steal on Goblins), but given the context it probably does not mean that and just means "One unit of this type".

Just want to say it's not a good exemple either, as there's arguments wether it's one unit for each kind of orc, or one unit for the whole army :P