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T10
16-01-2006, 16:25
p.53 Redirecting a charge
If a charged unit flees, it can happen that another enemy unit is now within the charging unitís reach. If this fresh enemy unit is within range then the player is allowed to redirect the charge, though he does not have to. He must declare that his unit is charging against the new target, and the target must make a response as normal. If this unit flees as well then the charging player is not allowed to redirect his charge again.

If there is a choice of units that can be charged, the charging unit must go after an enemy that is nearest to the original target unit.



A lot is read into the first part of the redirecting rules, thus establishing the commonly accepted criteria for redirecting a charge. Since charge redirection is a powerful tactical move it is important to get it right.

Can I redirect the charge?
The basic requirement for redirecting a charge is that the fresh unit "is now within the charging unitís reach".

1. The original target unit is moved before deciding to redirect. No surprise here.
2. The fresh unit must be within reach, so distance is measured before declaring the redirect. This is something I had not noticed earlier.
3. The unit would have to be one that the chargers could not charge before the original target unit fled. This typically denies mobile units with extended vision the opportunity to redirect, turning advantage into disadvantage.

Skirmishers can have improved arc of sight and almost unrestricted movement. For some reason, this turns to a tactical disadvantage as far as redirecting charges is concerned.

A better example is the Large Flier. Assume a block of infantry behind a line of archers. As a Large target, the Flier can engage either unit at will. Thus he is denied the option to redirect. Take away either his Large or Flier ability and he again has the option. Perhaps the player should decide to use the modelís ground movement instead? :)

In most accepted redirects, the charging unit can see parts of his intended redirect target. However, it is accepted that it is only an acceptable redirect target if the original target would interfere with the charge move. Note that fliers and skirmishers usually have the ability to bypass the screening unit.

Allow me to challenge convention on this.

If the chargers can see the unit then they can declare a charge against it. Of course, if the screening unit does not get out of the way, we will be looking at a failed charge. However, the player may be counting on other factors to ensure that that happens Ė charging it with a Terror causing model might do the trick.

The point is that since it is *possible*, even if it involves pure chance, to charge the screened unit, then the situation should not have allowed for the charge & redirect.

I submit that the commonly accepted norm for determining valid charge redirect target is flawed.

Before one starts bemoaning the fact that this will make Large Fliers overly powerful, please note the last part of the redirect rules: The charging unit does not have a choice in selecting the redirect target:

First, the target must be within reach as per a normal charge. Second, it must be the unit that is closest to the fleeing unit, at its position after its Flee move.

Latro
16-01-2006, 16:36
*cheers* :)

And yes, I hope they fix it clearly in the next edition because they way it works now leads to very odd results.


:cool:

Festus
16-01-2006, 17:08
Hi

Allow me to challenge convention on this.

If the chargers can see the unit then they can declare a charge against it. Of course, if the screening unit does not get out of the way, we will be looking at a failed charge. However, the player may be counting on other factors to ensure that that happens Ė charging it with a Terror causing model might do the trick.

The point is that since it is *possible*, even if it involves pure chance, to charge the screened unit, then the situation should not have allowed for the charge & redirect.


But you do realise that you may only declare charges if there is a reasonable chance of success?
While having another unit parked in the way of the chargers doesn't seem to be too easy to succeed with the charge, or does it?

T10
17-01-2006, 07:59
Reasonable chance of success is in the eye of the beholder.

Charge declaration does not require a clear path to the target unit. If you have the means to attempt, that surely qualifies as a "chance". I would not presume to define what are reasonable odds.

My point have ever is that the term "revealed" is inferred from the small graphic at the end of the redirect rules section, and more meaning has been attributed to it than the text itself.

-T10

Ganymede
17-01-2006, 08:31
You have proved that the human component to rules application is often as important as the written component, congrats!

mageith
17-01-2006, 15:03
Reasonable chance of success is in the eye of the beholder.

That would be beholders, no? Though I've seldom had a problem with declaring reasonable charges. I guess in this respect most of my opponents are reasonable.



Charge declaration does not require a clear path to the target unit. If you have the means to attempt, that surely qualifies as a "chance". I would not presume to define what are reasonable odds.

My point have ever is that the term "revealed" is inferred from the small graphic at the end of the redirect rules section, and more meaning has been attributed to it than the text itself.

The term revealed is not inferred. Its actually used in the graphic. What it does is create a direct conflict in how to apply a redirect. IMO, it was partially an atempt to define the term 'reach' which you suggest results in pre-measuring. And a strict reading probably dues suggest that, but I think its been pretty much universally ignored. I'm guessing, but the author of the rules and the graphic artist are probably different people and at the level of publication there is a conflict.

In most cases I too think the text takes precedence over the pictures, but there's not really anything to guide us on that. Both are probably equally weighted as rules.

Mage Ith

NakedFisherman
17-01-2006, 15:15
Skirmishers can have improved arc of sight and almost unrestricted movement. For some reason, this turns to a tactical disadvantage as far as redirecting charges is concerned.

How so? Targets can be revealed to Skirmishers just like everything else.


A better example is the Large Flier. Assume a block of infantry behind a line of archers. As a Large target, the Flier can engage either unit at will. Thus he is denied the option to redirect. Take away either his Large or Flier ability and he again has the option. Perhaps the player should decide to use the model’s ground movement instead? :)

Or just charge the unit behind the other in the first place.


In most accepted redirects, the charging unit can see parts of his intended redirect target. However, it is accepted that it is only an acceptable redirect target if the original target would interfere with the charge move. Note that fliers and skirmishers usually have the ability to bypass the screening unit.

Skirmishers can't -- they must charge straight forward. Unless the skirmishers could complete the charge on the "revealed" target initially in which case they should stop messing around and charge them in the first place.


If the chargers can see the unit then they can declare a charge against it.

No they can't. You must be able to complete the charge in more ways than just seeing the target.

T10
18-01-2006, 07:37
How so? Targets can be revealed to Skirmishers just like everything else.

(T10's Large Flier example)

Or just charge the unit behind the other in the first place.


Let me repeat my point in case you missed it:

Redirecting a charge is usually a tactical option, and is as such an asset. It allows you to potentially force two units to flee instead of one. On the down side, the original target unit may rally, but it is usually beneficial to have as many enemy units fleeing as possible.

So: Charging screen = good. Charging second unit = good. Use redirect to "get" both = much better.


Skirmishers can't -- they must charge straight forward. Unless the skirmishers could complete the charge on the "revealed" target initially in which case they should stop messing around and charge them in the first place.


"Stop messing about" - sure. You want the skirmishing unit to charge into combat and are presented with two target units that you know you can defeat easily. That's why you want to charge them and your opponent would rather you didn't. If you declare a charge against either, it will flee. End result: you engage neither.

With a redirect, your opponent will have to chose to accept the first charge or risk losing more than just one unit.



No they can't. You must be able to complete the charge in more ways than just seeing the target.

That is correct - I simplified the statement by discounting possible static features such as difficult terrain or obstacles. However, a lot can happen between the declaration and the moving of the chargers: fanatics may move out of the way, units may flee.

-T10

T10
18-01-2006, 07:56
(...)


On the illustration it is impossible for the knights to reach the second unit before the first unit flees: the unit is too close for the knight to wheel past.

I fear this (falsely) has been taken to mean that a "blocked charge path" is one of the factors to be considered when working out the redirect.

On pre-measuring:
I'm sure it could work out amiably. However you need to know if you *can* redirect before you are *allowed to*, which more than suggests measuring to determine the valid redirect target.

-T10

mageith
18-01-2006, 14:23
On the illustration it is impossible for the knights to reach the second unit before the first unit flees: the unit is too close for the knight to wheel past.

Exactly. The back unit isn't 'revealed' in the usual sense of revealed but it's path to the second unit is 'cleared'.



I fear this (falsely) has been taken to mean that a "blocked charge path" is one of the factors to be considered when working out the redirect.

A blocked charge path is the very opposite of "...now within the charging unit's reach" isn't it? In other words, its THE factor.



On pre-measuring:
I'm sure it could work out amiably. However you need to know if you *can* redirect before you are *allowed to*, which more than suggests measuring to determine the valid redirect target.

I think the rules can be read your way and some very astute friends of mine do. However, I think the mere suggestion of pre-measuring is not enough and almost all my other friends think its obviously not right. No one I know would ever consider it. It's one of those rules that GW wrote and is pretty much universially accepted that they couldn't possibly mean that if that's what they wrote.

I appreciate your careful analysis but I think its futile as long as 6e exists. This tree has been fully barked up. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying this is futile.

GW's paraphrase of this rule is what everyone follows and GW pretty much has said whatever you think it means, it doesn't, it means this:

"REDIRECTED CHARGE: Q. Can a unit redirect a charge against an enemy unit that it could have originally charged?

A. No, you can only redirect a charge against a unit if you could not have declared against them normally, but can now do so due to the enemy fleeing. (Chronicles 4, 112)"

One of my pet peeves is that I can't redirect into a unit that I can see and could probably reach but only with a horrendous clip. I once personally suggested to Gav that that wasn't 'normal' as used in the above Q&A and hoped he would further rectify it. He just smiled indulgently at me. As long as we are in 6e, the Q&A is the law of the land. I'm pretty sure there will be some important changes in 7e, though.

Mage Ith

NakedFisherman
18-01-2006, 21:33
Let me repeat my point in case you missed it:

Redirecting a charge is usually a tactical option, and is as such an asset. It allows you to potentially force two units to flee instead of one. On the down side, the original target unit may rally, but it is usually beneficial to have as many enemy units fleeing as possible.

Not always. There's a lot of other situations you'd have to take into account. I think Large Target fliers generally would rather run something down than have a failed charge and two enemy units fleeing, anyway.