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Morthak
23-09-2009, 17:34
Does Rending Sword allow my Sorcerer of Tzeentch to re-roll his dice to wound with magic and Bloodcurling Roar?

,Morthak

nosferatu1001
23-09-2009, 17:39
Strictly, yes - if memory serves it does not require that the rerolls are from that weapon.

Father of Blades has a similar slightly outre effect...

Drachen_Jager
23-09-2009, 17:50
People might take offense but literally that is what it says and it has not been FAQed or errataed to say otherwise so it stands. Pretty mean trick to play against someone who doesn't push the limits in my books and I'd only use it if I knew the opponent I was to face liked to stretch the envelope too.

Kroxigore
23-09-2009, 18:03
I've just read the rules on that rending sword and it indeed does say that the character gets to reroll all to wound rolls. This thing could also combine with that screaming daemon gift (don't know the english name). A re-roll on str. 1 hits nearly doubles the chance of wounding!
Nevertheless, some people will complain if you use it that way.

Atrahasis
23-09-2009, 18:24
Funny how no-one ever made similar claims about Dwarf Gouger.

Hey, the Blade of Nurglitch doesn't say that it has to be the weapon that wounds enemy models to make them lose a point of toughness!

Magical weapons have always been written with the assumption that the effects are limited to attacks with that weapon. This isn't a new Easter egg, and it's no more valid now than it was when the last Skaven book came out.

decker_cky
23-09-2009, 18:32
High elf sword of hoeth on a caster with flames of the phoenix. Does a S3 hit on all models in the unit which wounds automatically? This one's even universal, so affects all models in the games.

Magic weapons only affect attacks in close combat except where noted (and obviously aside from ranged weapons).

edit: Ohhh, foe bane looks to be a great way to boost your RBT. Make it so they always wound on a 2+ against things like GD, dragons and treemen? Not bad for 25 pts.

ARabidNun
23-09-2009, 18:33
Of course they are going to complain. 30 points for an item that would be used to reroll ALL to wound rolls incl. HtH, magic, etc.

That might not seem like much, but given to a character with hatred or KB and then what?

Morthak
23-09-2009, 18:35
I do not know every magic item in all books, but this was just a question, is it yes, or is it no? Does a magic weapon indeed always only effect it's close combat attacks?

,Morthak

decker_cky
23-09-2009, 18:38
I know it's a powerfull way to use it, but I don't see why it wouldn't. Nor the discription nor the FAQ sais anything about Rending Sword only letting you re-roll to wound rolls inin combat.

I do not know the Dwarf Gouger, I simply asked. Three say the use is correct, and it seems to me your against it.

,Morthak

Flip through other books and read the madness created by that liberal interpretation.

The best one is the Sword of Hoeth: "All hits wound automatically." Not just hits for that character. Not just for your army. ALL hits in the game.

This way of thinking leads to madness.

Kroxigore
23-09-2009, 19:18
Flip through other books and read the madness created by that liberal interpretation.

The best one is the Sword of Hoeth: "All hits wound automatically." Not just hits for that character. Not just for your army. ALL hits in the game.

This way of thinking leads to madness.

To be honest I would be interested, how many weapons can really be interpreted in that way. I always had the impression, that nearly all weapons where it could be relevant include something like "hits with this weapon re-roll to wound rolls". I'm not stating, that this is necessarily intended, nor would I use it in friendly games, but I wouldn't say it's illegal.

decker_cky
23-09-2009, 19:40
Weeping blades: The strength part affects only the wielder, but it says "Each unsaved wound is multiplied into D3 wounds."

Warpstone stars is the same as the weeping blades.

Dwarf slayer: "Against Dwarfs, the wielder always wounds on a 2+." <-That would work on magic too. "Armour saves suffer a -3 modifier, regardless of the wielder's strength." <- That would work on every armour save.

Blade of Nurglitch: "Enemy models lose 1 point of toughness from their profile for each unsaved wound they suffer, to a minimum of toughness 1." Awesome! The whole skaven army benefits from this one!

Checked beasts of chaos. They're all written correctly.

High elves have a whole bunch of abusable ones.

stripsteak
23-09-2009, 19:57
yeah as people have mentioned playing the weapon RAW yes it does. but if you play one weapon RAW you should play them all RAW and as decker says this way leads to madness.

safer to play it as it only affects attacks from the weapon itself. unless specified otherwise

Kroxigore
23-09-2009, 20:01
I have looked at WoC, BoC, DE, the old Lizarmen and Woodelves. The only thing, that I found was a CC weapon with the same effect as the rending sword and a Bow, which allows re-rolls to wound for shooting attacks.

What is interesting: This bow was FAQed, that it can indeed be used with other shooting attacks (WE have spites, which give extra shooting abilities). This at least counters the "no easter eggs" argument.

The thing which makes me wonder about the rending sword is that it explicitly says, that "the character with the rending sword" can re-roll all to wound rolls and that you find nearly the same formulation on that WE bow.

EDIT:

yeah as people have mentioned playing the weapon RAW yes it does. but if you play one weapon RAW you should play them all RAW and as decker says this way leads to madness.

safer to play it as it only affects attacks from the weapon itself. unless specified otherwise

It indeed specifies it otherwise as it explicitly states that the *character* may re-roll these rolls. That's why I'm inclined to say that it is not limited to CC.

2nd EDIT:
I know, that I'm being a bit "literal" here, but it just feels strange to interpret it otherwise, when the same formulation is used on that WE bow.

CaliforniaGamer
23-09-2009, 20:06
This is a troubling issue and I feel bad for Jordan Braun catching so much heat for merely mentioning it on the BoLS website. Maybe part 2 FAQ inc? If this interp stands then I would guess point for point, this would be the best weapon in all Warhammer?

Drachen_Jager
23-09-2009, 20:10
The problem is things like the sword of hoeth say "all wounds" whereas the rending sword says "the character may re-roll all to wound rolls" which is much more specific.

Bringing up such comparisons is disengenuous, YES normally a weapon's rules apply only to the use of that weapon but in this case it specifically says the character.

decker_cky
23-09-2009, 20:12
No. The sword of hoeth would be the best weapon.

Archmage w/ sword of hoeth
3 other mages
4 RBT
fill in the rest with bowmen

All hits wound automatically.

Nothing reaches the high elf lines alive (although an opposing gunline would do well against them).

Kroxigore
23-09-2009, 20:14
No. The sword of hoeth would be the best weapon.

Archmage w/ sword of hoeth
3 other mages
4 RBT
fill in the rest with bowmen

All hits wound automatically.

Nothing reaches the high elf lines alive (although an opposing gunline would do well against them).

You didn't really read his argument did you?

EDIT: No offense ment. Just wanted to point out, that I don't think, your post is an argument against Drachen_Jager's

decker_cky
23-09-2009, 20:16
Yea....but he's saying "This says character so it's not limited to combat, but that has no limit, so it's limited to combat."

His argument is horrible.

Kroxigore
23-09-2009, 20:19
Yea....but he's saying "This says character so it's not limited to combat, but that has no limit, so it's limited to combat."

His argument is horrible.

Sorry, I don't know, what you want to tell me by "but that has no limit, so it's limited to combat".

EDIT: Now I got it. The thing is, I would say, weapons only influence CC unless specified otherwise. Strictly, the formulation on the rending sword specifies otherwise. I know, that this argument is not bullet-proof, but if you look at that WE bow...

decker_cky
23-09-2009, 20:23
I don't buy it. It's strict RAW with one hand but ignores it on the other. If you want the rerolls for rending, then without ANY assumption of "weapons work in combat" you have to show why the sword of hoeth doesn't work against all wounds.

blackjack
23-09-2009, 21:05
The best one is the Sword of Hoeth: "All hits wound automatically." Not just hits for that character. Not just for your army. ALL hits in the game.


Why stop with all hits for just the elf army All hits means ALL hits, enemy friendly etc... :rolleyes:

Maybe some common sense would be in order here. Rerolling wounds and all hits etc refer to hits/wounds by the weapon in question only....

Geez guys.....

Kroxigore
23-09-2009, 21:09
I don't buy it. It's strict RAW with one hand but ignores it on the other. If you want the rerolls for rending, then without ANY assumption of "weapons work in combat" you have to show why the sword of hoeth doesn't work against all wounds.

Thinking about it longer, you do have a point. I've looked it up in the rulebook, it doesn't say anything, that weapon bonusses are limited to the CC phase. Having said that, weapon descriptions should not be limited to the CC phase if you want to play RAW. If you don't want to play RAW, you have to invent a rule for yourself. As everyone can invent a rule, I can't really argue for one point or the other as there is no rule to argue about.

Btw. the sword of striking could also be abused by characters carrying a shooting weapon.

Drachen_Jager
23-09-2009, 21:20
If a weapon said "all models in the unit" gain blank, would it work on the unit or only on the character?

Weapons magical effects only apply to the use of that weapon unless otherwise specified, in this case it's otherwise specified, I don't understand what part of that you don't get.

I guess the "father of blades" is a useless item (except it can attack etherial opponents I suppose) because it's ability can only affect the user's close combat attacks (and it specifically says it works on the opponent's attacks)? Come on, your argument is weak weak weak and you know it.

CaliforniaGamer
23-09-2009, 21:32
the insertion of the single phrase "all hits" in the rending sword really throws this issue into chaos (pun intended). That differentiates it from the striking sword (an otherwise great parallel).

The more I read it and think about the wording, the more I do think it may have been intended to be used with range/magic missiles etc. Although for the point cost, its ridiculous. Should be at least 50 points or more.

decker_cky
23-09-2009, 21:32
Father of blades gets an exception because of a specific FAQ, much like the wood elf item. Short of those, trying to work something like the rending blade leads to the Sword of Hoeth making every hit in the game wound automatically.

If a weapon said all models in a unit, that would apply to all the models in the unit. But it wouldn't apply to all those models in the shooting phase unless specified. And there is no weapon like that so it doesn't matter.

Your argument depends on a very narrow interpretation of the rules, which pretty much is interpreted exactly for this single weapon. You would never argue that unless you were looking to make it apply to the rending blade but not to things like the sword of hoeth. That is the definition of a weak argument.

Take RaW and you get ridiculous universal effects coming from magic weapons. Apply the PoV that it should be only CC for a magic weapon unless specified otherwise (and the rending blade doesn't specify otherwise) and both only apply to that character in close combat.

Tarian
23-09-2009, 21:33
I have to disagree with you Jager, despite your amusing avatar. Saying the character can reroll wounds is not the same as saying the character can reroll wounds in all phases.

The Warhammer rule book is a permissive ruleset. It doesn't tell you what you can't do, it tells you what you can do. It doesn't say the blade can be used in all phases, so you're left with when a blade is normally used, which is the CC phase. Father of Blades, on the other hand, specifically states that it works outside the norm.

Kroxigore
23-09-2009, 22:02
the insertion of the single phrase "all hits" in the rending sword really throws this issue into chaos (pun intended). That differentiates it from the striking sword (an otherwise great parallel).

The more I read it and think about the wording, the more I do think it may have been intended to be used with range/magic missiles etc. Although for the point cost, its ridiculous. Should be at least 50 points or more.

In the english version is there really the formulation "all hits"? I only have the german version, where the formulation is slightly different. If it is really "all hits", this is quite explicit. In the rulebook there is no rule anyway, which states that magic weapons only have an influence on the CC phase (unless it is not written down under "magic weapons" in the rulebook and I haven't seen it), so it is difficult to find out what the RAI rule would be.

CaliforniaGamer
23-09-2009, 22:13
my bad, it says "re-roll failed 'to wound' rolls", the "all" part is indeed not there. The fluff portion is: "As it is swung, this ever-hungry bladegrowls and snarls like a beast desperate for the taste of raw flesh."

decker_cky
23-09-2009, 22:15
In the english version is there really the formulation "all hits"? I only have the german version, where the formulation is slightly different. If it is really "all hits", this is quite explicit. In the rulebook there is no rule anyway, which states that magic weapons only have an influence on the CC phase (unless it is not written down under "magic weapons" in the rulebook and I haven't seen it), so it is difficult to find out what the RAI rule would be.

So you'll play that the Sword of Hoeth removes the "to wound" mechanic from the game?

Kroxigore
23-09-2009, 22:17
So you'll play that the Sword of Hoeth removes the "to wound" mechanic from the game?

I never said that. I just said, that there is no rule covering this situation.

theunwantedbeing
23-09-2009, 22:41
Sword of striking +1 to hit, doesnt say just combat.

Useful with your twin handbows or hydra's teeth in the case of dark elves.
+1 to hit initially, and then +1 to hit with each of those attacks :D
Similarly, it's useful for hitting with bladewind as well.

It's much easier to just assume magical effects of magical close combat weapons are only applicable in close combat while using that particular weapon.
So no re-rolling to wound with non-close combat hits using the rending sword (or sword of justice if your empire....).

Things get much too silly otherwise, even if it does make the hydra's teeth somewhat worth taking.

Morthak
24-09-2009, 07:45
Ok, thank you all. Even though the wording doesn't specify it, it is now clear to me that the intention was in Close Combat.

,Morthak

T10
24-09-2009, 07:51
The best one is the Sword of Hoeth: "All hits wound automatically." Not just hits for that character. Not just for your army. ALL hits in the game.


It doesn't say it's limited to just that game.

-T10

sulla
24-09-2009, 08:07
It doesn't say it's limited to just that game.

-T10
Harder to enforce it in boxing matches though... Or grid iron.

Drachen_Jager
24-09-2009, 15:43
It doesn't say it's limited to just that game.

-T10

Comet of Cassandora and other area effect spells could be nasty in a tightly packed tournament environment. Blow up half your table and part of the neighbouring one.

Seriously though, it says "the character" this is where the difference lies, it certainly implies that all hits caused by the character are re-rolled.

Atrahasis
24-09-2009, 15:51
Lots of other items say "the wielder" or "the bearer", does that mean their effects all extend beyond close combat?

Good luck getting the character to pick up the dice...

Drachen_Jager
24-09-2009, 17:24
Lots of other items say "the wielder" or "the bearer", does that mean their effects all extend beyond close combat?

I don't know, why don't you quote the full rules (because they include phrases like "in close combat" perhaps?


Good luck getting the character to pick up the dice...

I assume you're just trying to be a comedian here. There are so many entries where units or characters can do things with dice etc.

Atrahasis
24-09-2009, 18:16
Sword of Hoeth : "Armour Saves are modified by the Strength of the bearer"
Even when he's shooting at someone?

Shaga's Screamin' Sword: 'The wielder of this sword receives +1 Strength and +1 Attack for each enemy character within 12"'
Even when he's taking a Strength test to avoid a spell or some other effect?

Ulag's Akrit Axe : "The wielder may reroll any missed to-hit rolls."
Even when he's shooting? How about Fists of Gork?

Martog's Best Basha, Lucky's Dirk, Weeping Blades, Fellblade, etc etc etc

The list goes on. As has been pointed out already, this way madness lies.

Ben_Archaon
25-09-2009, 13:54
you could just say that all magic weapon rules only apply to attacks made with the weapon unless there is a more specific description of the events where the rule may be applied to. the sword of hoeth (with a really general statement) would then only affect hits caused by that weapon while the rending sword (with a more specfic statement) would have its affects applied by the rule.

besides if the sword of hoeth states ALL hits auto wound, then EVERY hit in the game would auto wound (ie the opppnent benifits as well).

Atrahasis
25-09-2009, 14:00
Precisely. The idea that a more specific description should have a less specific effect is ridiculous.

TroyJPerez
25-09-2009, 16:57
Untill its FAQ to say otherwise I agree that rending sword should only reroll actual attacks with the sword.

Lord of Skulls
26-09-2009, 08:17
Just a thought: The Warrior Priest Prayer that allows you to re-roll to wound rolls has been FAQ'ed to say that it works for shooting and magic as well.

(I know you can't apply that answer here, but the wording is close to identical as far as I can remember, so it might be a good indication of the way an eventual FAQ will go.)

I'm only sad I can't give my Engineer a Runefang.... Because a Hellblaster that autowounds with no armour saves would be excellent ;)

Kroxigore
26-09-2009, 11:50
Just a thought: The Warrior Priest Prayer that allows you to re-roll to wound rolls has been FAQ'ed to say that it works for shooting and magic as well.

(I know you can't apply that answer here, but the wording is close to identical as far as I can remember, so it might be a good indication of the way an eventual FAQ will go.)

I'm only sad I can't give my Engineer a Runefang.... Because a Hellblaster that autowounds with no armour saves would be excellent ;)

I don't think that the rule of a spell (prayers work like spells right?) can be transfered to the rule of a magic weapon. Btw. look at the first spell from the lore of heavens. I frequently use it on my slann to reroll to wound rolls of magic missiles.

stiggie
28-09-2009, 12:22
I don't think that the rule of a spell (prayers work like spells right?) can be transfered to the rule of a magic weapon. Btw. look at the first spell from the lore of heavens. I frequently use it on my slann to reroll to wound rolls of magic missiles.

but potent of far specifically states all rolls of a '1' to hit and wound IN COMBAT?

im not sure about all this tbh.. yeh i play WoC and id love it to work like that.

i read through all the comments on this post and for example...

whoever was going on about the common magic items effecting all phases.. they do not have any special rulings such as "the character" or "all wounds"..

ive not read the ruling on that elf weapon that causes "insta wounds" so i cant comment about that..

when people have been commenting about CC weapons that give like +1 strength or +1 attack etc working in the shooting phase.. how would that make a difference?? i dont think there are any shooting attacks based on a models characteristics?? (apart from BS).. TYRANIDS ARE 40K FOOL :)

just a quick note though for the rending sword.. read the rulings on the filth mace and whip of subversion (the weapon above and below it)

the filth maace says "all attacks with the mace count as poisoned, once the enemy has killed an enemy model in combat" <--- specifically stating both attacks from just the weapon AND in CC

and the whip says

"if an enemy character or monster takes an unsaved wound from the whip of subversion" <--- again.. specifically stating that it has to be caused by the whip..

dont you think if it was meant for the rending sword to get re-rolls in just CC it would say something like

"all unsuccessful rolls to wound in close combat may be re-rolled"

or

"all unsuccessful rolls to wound by the rending sword may be re-rolled"




P.S.. roar

EvC
28-09-2009, 12:47
Portent of Far does not specifically say in close combat.

If we assume that the descriptions for magic weapons always mean "when using the magic weapon", then it doesn't matter that some do state "in close combat" or similar, as that's just standard GW redundancy.

Grey
28-09-2009, 12:52
i dont think there are any shooting attacks based on a models characteristics?? (apart from BS).. TYRANIDS ARE 40K FOOL :)


I think the woodelves have a bow with which you may add the attacks of your profile to the number of shots you may fire. Even highelves may have such a weapon.


I'm with the people saying weapons should only come to effect if they are used.

stiggie
28-09-2009, 13:22
Portent of Far does not specifically say in close combat.

If we assume that the descriptions for magic weapons always mean "when using the magic weapon", then it doesn't matter that some do state "in close combat" or similar, as that's just standard GW redundancy.

ah i was pretty sure it was.. my bad :)


I think the woodelves have a bow with which you may add the attacks of your profile to the number of shots you may fire. Even highelves may have such a weapon.


i've never played against wood elves so i wouldnt know :(.. but still it is a very very very rare circumstance

theunwantedbeing
28-09-2009, 14:53
If we assume that the descriptions for magic weapons always mean "when using the magic weapon", then it doesn't matter that some do state "in close combat" or similar, as that's just standard GW redundancy.

A big problem with GW rules is that often you have multiple items on the same page that are intended to do basically the same thing, although they get different wordings which can be confusing to those reading them.

eg.
Warriors of Chaos Talismans
Collar of Khorne, the model gets a 6+ ward save
Golden Eye, the model has a 4+ ward save. This does not apply to his mount.

So...the collar of khorne does apply to the mount?
Some unhelpful wording for the golden eye results in people not aware of items that affect the "model", actually mean just the bearer to think that the collar would grant a mount a ward save.

Carry this to the DE item potion of strength.
The model gains +3 strength

So...the mount get's it as well?

Unhelpful really.
GW really could do with actually employing a proof reader.


I think the woodelves have a bow with which you may add the attacks of your profile to the number of shots you may fire. Even highelves may have such a weapon.

WE bow of leron attacks = your number of shots
HE reaver bow, its just a happy coincidence that it grants 3 shots when the model that'll invariably be carrying it also has 3 attacks.
THe WE bow is the only weapon that grants a number of shots based on your attack value.

EvC
28-09-2009, 14:55
Ironic when you consider things like the Golden Eye's disclaimer was only put there to be helpful to readers who might remember 6th edition HoC, yet could only possibly cause confusion now...

Adran
29-09-2009, 07:43
Stiggie
Thrown weapons use the strength of the user (with axes its plus one)
If you are equipped with both throwing axes and a great weapon you are not going to be using them all at strength +3 I hope ;-)

stiggie
29-09-2009, 09:32
Stiggie
Thrown weapons use the strength of the user (with axes its plus one)
If you are equipped with both throwing axes and a great weapon you are not going to be using them all at strength +3 I hope ;-)

IT WOULD COUNT AS THROWING THE GREAT WEAPONS!!! :D


lmao joke.. u dont get it either lol..

great weapons just say "+2 strength, always strike last" not "the character has +2 strength"??

Atrahasis
29-09-2009, 09:49
Stiggie, you're wrong.

It doesn't matter whether a sword says "the character", "the wielder", "the bearer", or simply says "+2S", the rules simply do not work in a sensible way if the effects of magical weapons are applied to attacks made by other means.

You are arguing that a more specific rule (that limits the effect to "the character") has a more general effect than a generally worded rule ("All rolls to wound"). This is absurd.

stiggie
29-09-2009, 10:17
im not arguing anything im on both sides.. read my comments =] i was just pointing out his wording because people are working out about the wording of magical items with words like "the character" etc wether it really is the characters stats modified. and people are coming along and saying common magic items that dnt have anything to do with what we are talking about and comparing them lol

Atrahasis
29-09-2009, 10:26
Again, you're wrong:

Sword of Striking : The sword confers to the character wielding it a bonus of +1 when rolling to hit.
Sword of Battle : The blade confers +1 attack on the character wielding it.

The list goes on. Weapons only work when you're using them - otherwise where does it end? Magic shields that grant improved armour saves and effects when using a great weapon?