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keldon33
23-09-2009, 22:33
Hey guys, I posted my army list a little while ago, didnt get much response so wasnt sure if that meant people thought it was decent and thats that or what.

Anyways, I just wanted to re-post an updated tweaking of that list and ask for replies on what weaknesses people would exploit in this list and using what to do so. This is designed for tourn'y play so it does contain a rather large "cheese" unit, however, I have stayed away from using the traditional dire wolves screen for the frenzied bloodknights and instead opted for a different option (see plan below) which allows for a shooty opponent to get some chances to inflict wounds on my deathstar unit (so its not total cheese :)).
(also keep in mind I dont want replies on how someone could tailor an army to beat this, rather I'd like to see replies on what typical armies tourn'y people would usually field and could use to beat this list)


List:

CHARACTERS:
Vampire Lord
Vampiric Powers:
-Flying Horror
-Forbidden Lore (Lore of Death)
-Dark Acolyte
Magic Items:
-The Flayed Hauberk
-Crowned of the Damned
-Sword of Might
Total= 375

Vampire(Hero)
Vampire Hero
-Nightmare
Vampiric Powers:
-Dread Knight
Magic Items:
-Blood Drinker
Total= 165

Vampire(BSB)
Vampire Hero
-Nightmare
Vampiric Powers:
-Dread Knight
Magic Items:
-The Drakenhof Banner
Total= 275

Vampire Hero(Wizard)
Vampiric Powers:
-Dark Acolyte
-Summon Ghouls
Magic Items:
-Book of Arkhan
-Talisman of the Lycni
Total= 190

CORE UNITS

10 Crypt Ghouls
Crypt Ghoul
Total= 80

10 Crypt Ghouls
Crypt Ghoul
Total= 80

10 Crypt Ghouls
Crypt Ghoul
Total= 80

RARE UNITS

8 Blood Knights
Knights
Kestellan -Magic Item: Sword of Battle
Musician
Standard Bearer
-Magic Standard: Flag of Blood Keep

Total= 580

Varghulf (or possibly 3x Cairn Wraiths w/tomb banshee instead)
Total=175

GRAND TOTAL= 2000

Magic = 9 Powerdice + 7 Dispel Dice + 1 bound spell
-----------------
Battleplan:

Idea would be to have the Vamp Lord sit in behind the frenzied Blood knights (both units on the right flank of the army) and shadow their moves up the field of battle. His flying gives him a 20" range so if anyone tries to bait my blood knights I would sick the Vamp Lord out on them to clear the path.

Bloodknights are a fairly standard deathstar unit. (i.e. 2+ save, 4+ ward save vs shooting, 4+ regen save). Not many units in the game can really face these guys if they get into combat. The vamp hero with the blood drinker and the BSB will be with this unit too so very deadly. I will send them straight after the most rewarding, strongest targets they can get into combat with.

Now the Ghouls are simply there to soak up any damage the opponent wants to waste. They are undead so he will have to kill an entire unit for it to completely perish. Otherwise my plan is to use the Dark Acolyte Vamp Hero to sit behind the main lines and continually cast the Summon Ghouls ability to increase the size of the ghouls in the 3 units. So if the opponent does not focus his attention on knocking either the vamp out or the units of ghouls he may find himself quickly overrun by the sheer number of ghouls my Vamp is creating in the backfield.

Finally, Id like to use the Varghulf (or possibly the 3x cairn wraiths) to sit on the outside flank of the ghouls and keep them protected there as they are moving forward. If the ghouls get attacked head on I'd use the Varghulf to attack the enemies flank. Otherwise Id keep the Varghulf on the move and try to get it into grips with any vulnerable targets such as cannons/mages/etc.



There you have it, so let me know what your general tourn'y army would do up against such a force... thanks guys :)

Gokamok
23-09-2009, 23:16
First of all, this belongs in the army lists section, not tactics.

As for the list itself, at least two very big threats spring to mind: Bloodthirsters and War Machines.

With a Vampire General on his own, anyone who can get a shot off with a Bolt Thrower, Cannon, or whatever will take it, which will result in you losing the game rather quickly, so you can't really be sure to do all that much with your Lord without putting him in the line of fire.

Bloodthirsters are the main reason why I don't believe in Blood Knight Deathstars; the "standard" S7 flaming BT will charge your deathstar head on and then obliterate it, and there's nothing you can do to prevent that apart from praying to the dice gods:D

Basically, the main weakness of this list is that IF your opponent has the tools needed to either destroy or redirect your Deathstar, then there's nothing in your list that provides a real threat to your opponent.

zerachiel
24-09-2009, 00:07
First of all, this belongs in the army lists section, not tactics.

As for the list itself, at least two very big threats spring to mind: Bloodthirsters and War Machines.

With a Vampire General on his own, anyone who can get a shot off with a Bolt Thrower, Cannon, or whatever will take it, which will result in you losing the game rather quickly, so you can't really be sure to do all that much with your Lord without putting him in the line of fire.

Bloodthirsters are the main reason why I don't believe in Blood Knight Deathstars; the "standard" S7 flaming BT will charge your deathstar head on and then obliterate it, and there's nothing you can do to prevent that apart from praying to the dice gods:D

Basically, the main weakness of this list is that IF your opponent has the tools needed to either destroy or redirect your Deathstar, then there's nothing in your list that provides a real threat to your opponent.

This list actually doesn't suffer much for a destroyed General. He has 3 Ghoul units (which one will at least have the caster Vamp's Ld), but the rest of the list is practically all Vampires, who don't take crumbling wounds when the General dies.

I can see Daemons doing a number on this list, but VC usually cannot handle large creatures well anyway. Dark Elves with 2 Hydras can also circle your Deathstar and puke on it the entire game, while their casters can pick off your Lord (Blade Wind especially, my own Lord had a bad experience with that, losing 3 wounds to one Blade Wind despite having a Regeneration save, 3D6 S4 WS4 hits is brutal against single characters).

Darkangeldentist
24-09-2009, 01:41
I think a lot of armies will have ways to counter this list. That deathstar can be messed about with by many different cheap expendables. Having your lord fly around on his own is also asking for trouble. I think a high elf lord on Star dragon will give you headaches too.

You've got 9 power dice but only 4 max that can be used to make the ghouls bigger. From only one caster at that.

Too much is invested in those blood knights even without thinking about other things. There's not much else in the army after characters. Small regiments of ghouls can die very quickly. Even with vampires to help them I doubt they'll hold against ranked up foes with moderate fighting capacity.

keldon33
24-09-2009, 07:01
Good arguments so far guys...

I realise the opponent will be looking to kite my unit of blood knights, but for the most part people seem willing to only use cheapy units to do so. In which case my vamp lord (with his 4, str 6 attacks, 2+ armor save and 4+ ward save) should be able to handle a round of engagement with them. Atleast from what ive seen so far I dont think any fast units have the ability to stand up to that. My real worry would be if something like a star dragon was used to kite the blood knights around, at which point yes it would be dicey to send out the lord to challenge it head on. Instead I might opt to use the lore of death "steal soul" spell for a couple of rounds on it and buff my lords wounds up before making the fly charge. At which point I would need to survive combat with the dragon until my next turn when I can charge it with blood knights and destroy it. It would be risky but its really one of the rarer cases I think. (also I have the option of using the van hels bound spell to push my knights up for an extra 8" charge reach if he errors and leaves it in that extra range)

I dont think the hydra has the range on its fire breath to use it and still remain safely out of the range of a charge? i could be wrong?

As for war machines, I would plan to position my lord behind the enemy models if I intend to bring him out from behind the blood knights for an attack so he shouldnt be put in direct line of sight.

Finally, The bloodthirster charging the unit of Blood Knights head on... well this is never pretty is it. If it came down to this what I think I would try to do, First hope he doenst have the deamonic gift that gives him 2d6+2 attacks, but ok say he does, he would have to hope to inflcit atleast 12 wounds in total to kill the entire unit, and thats without armour or regen saves (if he has the firestorm blade i wont get regen). So theres a strong chance the unit could stand a round of that punishment in which case you can bet ill be spamming IoN to replenish it on my turn (+ if my vamp hero lives any wounds he might score back will replenish the unit by that number), . I would try to inflict any wounds I could with any survivors either first in his initial attack and then also by using the bound van hels spell on the next turn to gain first strike. Hoping I can achieve just 1 or 2 wounds with the blood knights in this scenario would be good because then I could use my lord (right behind them) to first be casting "steal soul" or possibly even "drain life" to inflict a couple of additional wounds (obviously i would have to buff up the dice roll on these spells, max 5 dice available to roll here) then i could finish off by sending in the vamp lord in hopes he can deal 1 close combat wound on his own to kill the BT. After that any survivors in the blood knight unit can be brought right back up to full health using IoN.
There is also the option of summoning a large zombie unit beside the combat and engaging in an attempt to out perform the BT using static CR too in which case he would be forced to take the nasty Daemon test.
An additional final option would be to postion the knights just outside of flying reach (21"-22" away) then have them march 14" forward and cast van hel's to push them the final 8" forward for the first charge on the BT.


But yeah these are all good scenarios for what I should be looking out for an thinking about, so thank you for that guys, please post back any replies to this or any other things I should be looking out for.

WusteGeist
24-09-2009, 07:32
So if I read this right your doing a small blood knight unit as your unit for most if not all your vamp characters? Interesting. Wraiths are almost always better than vargulf when it comes to rare choices. Wraiths only don't work against demons other wise they are a very good choice. Your ghoul blocks are very low and you only have 1 guy that can buff them. A good shooting or even semi shooting army could work them out 2 turns easy. Regen banner for big block of knights is good, but a dwarf list or flamers will make you hurt after a few turns.

Leo85
24-09-2009, 07:39
I don't think your list has any cheese whatsoever :P. First off your army is way to small, and there isn't enough options for your opponent to choose from. The way to win is making your opponents think to the point they start making mistakes. I had a list simialr list to yours and without a proper screen your BK's can charge into fanatics and omg will that bring tears down your face haha. but yah a flank charge on the BK's will cripple you very badly D: As much as that list is fun, Tournys are made to win, spread the points around the army to have it well balanced, I mean 1500 pts on a handfull of models will send you packing early. Man and 500pts on a hit or miss unit is not good either. If this list is for fun then yah go for it have fun with it.

Darkangeldentist
24-09-2009, 10:04
Dire wolves will take the charge of your lord and still be there. 4 attacks tends to equate to about 3 dead. That's not a dead unit of puppies, they won't hurt you but will tie him up and drag the knights off in a silly direction. Cheap cheerfull and nasty.

Most fast cavalry such as pistolers or dark riders will work to drag your knights and lord around if you are depending on him to save them. One very notable issue with using your lord in such a manner, particularly against armies that can flee. Your lord will always go 20" which means if he charges an expendable unit and it flees he will likely be left right in front of the enemy lines. Even with his armour, ward and killy stats that's not going to be good.

The blood thirster is likely to have firestorm and immortal fury (infinite hatred) with quite likely obsidian armour, so your knights will die and quickly against him. Likely starting with your battle standard bearer. That happens and you'll be losing knights to combat res. He's also likely to challenge you. So I doubt you'll cause any wounds.

Hydras can march and flame you I believe which means a 12" move, which could be enough. Particularly if they can bait the knights in the right direction first.

keldon33
24-09-2009, 15:54
OK some more interesting points...

1. I had considered dropping either the sword of might on the lord or the sword of battle on the kestellan to give another vamp the ability to increase ghoul units. If after testing this army out in RL I may find your exactly right Wuste about me needing another vamp with the ability to increase the unit sizes.

2. Also, yeah I may find I have to take the traditional route and include atleast 1 unit of dire wolves to act as a screen for the knights. However, Id first like to try using the various options I have with this list still. If I find Im facing off against something like night goblins across from me, I think what I will try to do is spam some Raise Dead spells from the 3 vamps in that area of the board. Im hoping with 3 casters atleast 1 will make it through and I can raise a unit of zombies to bait the fanatics out... even maybe use van hel's to end the unit of zombies over the fanatics to wipe them off the board if I wish.

3. If I do find the enemy has managed to flee from the lord, Ive always got the option of casting a vanhel's on him (using either the 18" moving vamp caster by the zombies or if one of the 3 other vamps lands it as a spell) and then moving him back 8" and the bloodknights up along towards the enemy lines (where I want them to go anyways) and block his line of sight to the enemy warmachines again. Although I do admit this is gonna take alot of practise and getting used to delicately positioning troops so it does start to get iffy here, but Im up for the challenge :) ASWELL I would like to point out the Lord knows all of the spells from the Lore Of Death and so he will know the "Doom & Darkness" spell (-3 penalty to a units leadership) That means it would be hard for any fast cavalry to choose to flee and then in the subsequent turn rally since usually at best we are talking about using a base leadership value of 8 (dark riders) -3 = 5. So rolling 2 d6 and hoping to get 5 and under are good odds for me.

4. The bloodthirster has no possible way of becoming that powerful, its only allowed 100 points max for additional items. That being said worst case scenario would be immortal fury + firestorm + something like khorne circlet or armor. Although the point about losing the combat and losing more troops to crumbling is scary, this would be one of the tougher situations I would face with this army I think.


Finally, I would like to add that yes I do like the particular look of this army, so a fun factor is in play here. I think im still convinced it can do well in a tourn'y, so at this point I think I will still go for it and if I get completely massacred well then I will atleast know I need some re-thinking here :D

EndlessBug
24-09-2009, 16:49
What if you face a Slann + 2 engines list?

Slann takes metal, pumps out a 2 dice burning iron on your BSB/general (counts as large target when casting) each turn, 3 dice molten silver? (2d6 s4 one), then a 4 dice spirit of the forge. You have 7 DD, so sure the forge will prob be dispelled (you'll prob need 5 dice at least), 2 left for a 50/50 on the burning iron, Or you stop the iron and silver and take 2d6 spirit of the forge hits.

Then you've got 2 lvl 3 priests to blast you (if they get uranons thunderbolt you're screwed). Forked lightning can target your general every turn for added threat (they're on large targets so they can see him).

Once he's dealt with the BSB, 2 engines doing 2d6 S5 no armour saves allowded hits per turn will destroy them in no time.

List:
Slann
- Mystery, Rumination, Cupped hands, 2 scrolls, BSB

Skink Priest
- lvl 2, EotG, Diadem of power

Skink Priest
- Lvl 2, EotG, Plaque of Tepok

10 Skinks
- Skirmishers

10 Skinks
- Skirmishers

10 Skinks
- Skirmishers

19 Temple Guard
- FC

3 Terradons

3 Terradons

Power Dice: 12 (+1 per slann spell) = 15
Dispel Dice: 8 (poss 10)
Dispel Scrolls: 2

In this case, 1 skink sacrifices his 2 power dice to get 10 dispel dice (Vs your 10 Power dice and 1 bound item). Terradons and skinks keep your nasty unit away from the slann/stegs. Slann/stegs blasts the crap out of the knights/Vargulf/lord.

Drachen_Jager
24-09-2009, 19:01
Well my tourney list is;

WoC

4x6 Knights of Khorne
1 Lord on Juggernaut
3 Marauder horse (2 MoS, 1 MoK with flails)
6x5 Warhounds
Warshrine

The Ghouls would be a joke, even the marauder horse with MoK is likely to destroy an entire unit in one round of combat, the Knights would barely slow down, once in your backfield I could make pretty short work of your magic base.

One unit of Knights with the Lord would attempt to take the Blood Knights head on using as many units of hounds as necessary to ensure that I get the charge in (if you used your vamp to clear a unit of hounds away he'd be horribly exposed). This combat should be fairly even although I think my 1+ save and STR 4/5 attacks will give me the upper hand, in any case I don't think either unit would win faster than 3 or 4 rounds of combat by which time I'd probably have another unit of knights lined up for a rear charge.

All in all I don't think using that list and the tactics you listed you could avoid being massacred. But Vamps vs Knights of Khorne is always a tough match for the Vamp player.

Slyde
24-09-2009, 20:36
If you are going to put 3 vampires into the knight units anyways, why the heck are you paying the points for blood knights instead of just using black knights? You are paying an insane amount of points for knights that are just going into the second rank and making you deal with frenzy. Put those points into other units that can threaten the enemy.

Big Blood Knight units are a joke. I find 4 with the hellfire banner a much more credible threat, as they are cheap enough to be held back in safety until things are stuck in with your infantry, then brought out turn 3 or 4 to demolish engaged units or those big regenerating monsters that are so common now.

keldon33
24-09-2009, 21:20
Mmm tons more good scenarios:


Lizards:
1. I dont know too much on lizards so you would have to bare with me on them. But Im not sure how you get 12 + 3 power dice exactly? Atleast from what I know on lizards I thought 4 dice for the slann and 3 dice each for the skinks = 10?
2. Are you saying both skinks are sitting on stegs? I wasnt sure there.
This is a tough looking list forsure as I have no doubt my magic would be hard to get off. At the same time though, if your sacrificing PD to buff up your DD, well then im pretty sure I should be able to atleast null most of your magic aswell. I think this would come down to who got the better roles in combat as I could always opt to let the Lord abaddon aiding the BK's and then sick the Lord + 3 units of ghouls + Vargulf (or possibly cairn wraiths here who would be uneffected by your temple guard attacks) onto your skinks + slann and deal with them in close combat. Its a tough sounding battle forsure though. I would really have to think of a strategy there.


WOC:
1. Question are those marauders single models or units? I wasnt sure?

Yes I think any chaos army is always a tough battle. But atleast with yours there I know Ive got alot of ability to use my magic. This means summoning lots of zombie hordes... either to block hound movements or bog down your heavy hitting knights until I can move my own BK's in a position to attack them. And even if your able to get the charge off on them, I dont think your smaller units of knights have the upper hand. First your having to deal with 2 stronger vamp chars in the front, +2 save, +4 regen on all models. Secondly, if my vamp with the blood drinker scores any wounds, im getting models right back + I can always summon IoN to gain back my BKs, your guys are dead once they are dead. So really I think you would need to make sure you wipe the BK's in one turn or else they are coming right back.


Slyde:

I only have 2 vamps in the unit, they are there to make it a death star unit. The lord is only shadowing the unit and is free to choose seperate maneuvers/attacks.

theunwantedbeing
24-09-2009, 21:33
The deathstar is frenzied, it'll be in the nearest difficult terrain by turn 2 where it'll be usless for the rest of the game.

The rest of the list then isnt scary.
30 ghouls...not scary in the slightest.
Vamp on foot...quick yes but all too easy to kill.
The lord is tricky to kill, but by no means impossible, standard combat res will probably take him down just fine.

That leaves the vargulf/wraiths which again, arent much of an issue considering how easily dealt with the rest of your army is.

Its a very poor list you have.
Not going to be much good against most balanced lists, let alone most tourament lists.

keldon33
24-09-2009, 22:14
Theunwanted, we already know its frenzy and that it is subject to kite maneuvers. What you have said is nothing new, Ive been going through options through this entire post to show how the lord/magic in the army can be used to prevent this however. If I'm totally off on my thinking please give me specific examples that show this, not just a general claim, because I still feel with good planning and know how I can avoid alot of kite issues.

xragg
24-09-2009, 23:02
I realise the opponent will be looking to kite my unit of blood knights, but for the most part people seem willing to only use cheapy units to do so. In which case my vamp lord (with his 4, str 6 attacks, 2+ armor save and 4+ ward save) should be able to handle a round of engagement with them. Atleast from what ive seen so far I dont think any fast units have the ability to stand up to that. My real worry would be if something like a star dragon was used to kite the blood knights around, at which point yes it would be dicey to send out the lord to challenge it head on. Instead I might opt to use the lore of death "steal soul" spell for a couple of rounds on it and buff my lords wounds up before making the fly charge. At which point I would need to survive combat with the dragon until my next turn when I can charge it with blood knights and destroy it. It would be risky but its really one of the rarer cases I think. (also I have the option of using the van hels bound spell to push my knights up for an extra 8" charge reach if he errors and leaves it in that extra range)


Anything baiting your blood knights would care less if a flying vampire would kill it. I dont care if you kill my "harpies", your blood knights are still running to a part of the table that I want them to.





I dont think the hydra has the range on its fire breath to use it and still remain safely out of the range of a charge? i could be wrong?


Hydra can move through terrain with no penalty, you cannot. Sure, on a table with no terrain, a hydra wont out maneuver you. Add terrain and baiting your frenzy and a pair of hydras become a scary thing for blood knights.





As for war machines, I would plan to position my lord behind the enemy models if I intend to bring him out from behind the blood knights for an attack so he shouldnt be put in direct line of sight.


First he's screened behind the knights and out of sight from being shot at, but at the same time your tactics have in sight of baiters. Thats wishful thinking. Its pretty hard to have a view of where potential "baiters" will be and assure that you will be out of sight of war machines. Again, most people could care less if you actually have an alternative way to catch baiters. Your blood knights are still forced to charge them. I really dont know why anyone would risk an exspensive dragon to bait things.

ewar
25-09-2009, 00:17
Its a very poor list you have.

Bit harsh? Maybe couch the criticism in a slightly friendlier way? No need to ***** on the mans dreams.

Keldon,
You seem convinced that you'll be able to play the army, so power to you - you can't beat practicing on the tabletop. I think if you're careful, the BK could do a lot of damage - however to even stand a chance of that, you're going to need a hound screen for sure.

I basically agree with the other posters on the weaknesses of the list, but I also know from many years of GTs that there are actually a surprising number of soft lists/not very good players, and I think they will be easy pickings for you. I'm betting a 50/50 win split, with the 'tougher' lists people have mentioned really making you suffer.

Gokamok
25-09-2009, 00:56
I brought up the issue of the Bloodthirster, so I guess I should explain it in further detail. The "standard" BT I mentioned has reroll to hit in all rounds of combat, S7 flaming attacks and a 3+ AS that also nullifies magic weapons used against it.
This Bloodthirster will score an average of 4.78 unsaved wounds per combat round against your Blood Knights, ignoring their regen saves due to flaming attacks. It will also score the same number of wounds against your characters, apart from your Lord who'll have slightly more than 50% chance of surviving a round of combat with it.

As for summoning Zombies to flank the BT, you only have 9 PD against the 6 DD of the "Deamon list of DOOM", meaning that you'll likely be able to summon a unit of Zombies, raise once into it, and then NOT cast Vanhel's on it in the same magic phase. Assuming you have Vanhel's, that is, which is in no way secured with your current setup.

In other words, the BT will kill 4-5 Blood Knights each round of combat, (or whoever is sent to challenge it) while you generate 4 points of static CR (rank, outnumber, standard, BSB) in the first round of combat, meaing that you're likely to lose combat by 1 point. In subsequent rounds, where you'll lose the rank bonus from your Knights, POSSIBLY gain a rank+flank from Zombies, you'll win by 1 point, forcing the BT to test on Ld 8 with a reroll (because yes, his BSB will be nearby) which is unlikely to do anything.

While this slugout (that will inevitably end with your Blood Knights and characters being destroyed) is going on, some Flesh Hounds and their buddies will be running rampant on the rest of your army and likely wiping you off the table by turn 4.

I'm not trying to say that your army is horrible, I'm just underlining the fact that a competitive Deamon army is very, very likely to massacre you, and that your army does not have the tools to stop them from doing so.

keldon33
25-09-2009, 02:27
Its a very poor list you have.
tourament lists.

Hehe, yeah the debate is getting a bit too heated. I realise alot of this is tough to really decide in theory, espicially when im trying to defend an army like this. I appreciate all the comments people have left though, it really gives me a good idea of just what my biggest pitfalls will be. So i think what ill do from here is take this army out, hone my playing skills against a slew of armies and be mindful when i face these scenarios and jot down notes on what I can do in them and the outcomes. It may turn out a couple months from now I have some real game examples to post you guys and show what I had managed to do. Anyways, thanks again guys, alot of good stuff for me to look at now :D

BigbyWolf
25-09-2009, 19:41
As for war machines, I would plan to position my lord behind the enemy models if I intend to bring him out from behind the blood knights for an attack so he shouldnt be put in direct line of sight.

Just curious, but if the lord is behind the knights, how can he take out the units that will be used to bait them?