PDA

View Full Version : Veterans falling from favour!



Rick_1138
16-01-2006, 20:39
I have it on good authority that GW are looking to oust veterans from stores, not kick us out but remove our wishes to play there i.e only opening stores on tuesday night, no more thursday nights etc.

Apparently it is comign about due to many managers seeing veterans as coming in and 'taking over' the store, i.e sitting in all day and telling younger kids what they should and should not get!

The company is looking to remove the bulk volume of gamers playing so often instore and get them to start up gaming clubs etc.

There is to be a larger emphasis on new gamers and training them up to send them out to gaming clubs.

Personaly i think this is a very bad idea, as i myself see myself as a teacher among the rest of my local veterans, as new gamers come in and i quite often offer them a game to get the jist of the game down for them, simply because the staff can't cover all the kids in one go, and it encourages communication and friendships.

Also, the veterans are seen as never spending any money, its more the parents of new gamers that are the real cash cows, this i feel is also untrue, many of the veteran gamers have disposable incomes and often buy new armies when they come out.

This is a direction GW should not be taking in my view, the whole point of the hobby is for enthusiasts to meet, talk about moddeling ideas and what things they can do with their armies, as well as for staff to train newcomers. however i have been told that GW stores are not club houses for vets, rather we should leave the place open for the newbies.

I, and my friends included (one ex manager too) believe that this process will alienate gamers and the company will get a smack in the face for it.

However this is just my view, any one else have a thought on this, lets get a discussion going

p.s., this wil in no way alter my buying the shiney new Tau Empire stuff when its released....they kick me out then drag me back in;)

Spell_of_Destruction
16-01-2006, 20:56
Well whether it is nice for us to accept or not, GW is a large cash hungry corporation like all the others, meaning that its main aim is to record as high a profit as possible. The concerns of veteran gamers are relevant...insofar as we will constitute part of their revenue although if getting to an even bigger pot of gold means alienating us completely then it will be done without a moments hesitation.

It's just something you have to learn to live with in today's society.

Rick_1138
16-01-2006, 21:00
yes but the point is, and i just heard about another price hike, many gamers i know, go to GW to game and chat, if they cannot do that, setting up a gaming club is a pain and we would have to pay, propably a small amount but that is all it takes.

the point i am making is, this is a company alienating a fairly substantial proportion of its clientele, along with things like shorter openign hours, and less games instore, it may not be long before people assume that the place is never open and sells little.

also this is from a company that is losing cash in a big way due to the LOTR licence it has to pay for, with a waning interest in the franchise.

i would have thought they would look for custom anywhere!

Chuffy
16-01-2006, 21:03
This isn't new news, it's been obvious GW have had this attitude for a while now.

And hey, if they do try and enforce it and rally dissuade people from playing...well meh. It just means I can start using minis from other companies in my armies (a good oppurtunity to start DoW using OG minis).

In fact I might just do that anyway, there are lots of gaming clubs around Bristol apparently....

Misfratz
16-01-2006, 21:03
This is completely contrary to the impression that I get from my local store and I can't see my local manager going for it.

I could see GW wanting to increase the number of Gaming clubs as it would be too expensive for their own stores to be open enough and with enough space for people to play in. Much easier for them if they can get customers to organise it for themselves, but I see this more as a positive 'pull' to the Gaming Clubs rather than a negative 'push' away from the stores.

carmachu
16-01-2006, 21:12
MisFrantz:

Could be a local thing. Since GW is breaking the US into regions.

As for the rest, its nothing new. Its a BTDT item. GW fails to forget one small detail: many of the younger crowd who is older now, they were influenced by the older vets, some taking them in hand, showing them the ropes and other such stuff. Its how its been.

Now if GW's going to step in on that part, fine. But GW also fails to realize there arent that many clubs in the US, its not like UK. I'm sure there are some, but the sheer distances arent exactly endearing to this idea.

But what do I know.

Rick_1138
16-01-2006, 21:28
well we have a couple of clubs here, but they play lots of game systems, mainly the likes Napolean etc.

and they are very unwelcoming, a friend of mine who is a store manager down south, says that it isn't hard to do and make new friends, yes this is true, but why should i have to go to all the trouble of organising something where many propably wont turn up and it will end in a disaster with many leaving the hobby.

however don't get me wrong, i would rather see it a success!

Some guy (UK)
16-01-2006, 21:38
Im not some veteran, and i dont claim to be. But this is shocking. I would rather learn the game from a normal guy, than, well lets say, some of the more characterful redshirts at GW stores:D :angel:

Later, Some Guy (UK)

Gwedd
16-01-2006, 22:19
Im not some veteran, and i dont claim to be. But this is shocking. I would rather learn the game from a normal guy, than, well lets say, some of the more characterful redshirts at GW stores:D :angel:

Later, Some Guy (UK)

Comrades,

There's much to be said in favor of the veterans teaching the younger ones how to play rather than the red shirts. I have found through my own experience that redshirts are usually somewhat short on civility and customer interaction skills. But I digress...

One thing that I would point out, however, is that there is always the danger of stagnation when keeping the statud quo intact. By that I mean the same group of veterans playing on the same night, same hours, etc. They are knowledgeable, but, as I have witnessed on some occasions, they may not always be the best to bring in a new pup to the litter.

I have seen veterans use their advantage to help newbies by an army or unit that the veteran thinks is best, not necesarily that the newbie can or should use. What I am saying is that the biases of the veteran towards or against certain models or units or armies can and sometimes does, interject itself, and not always to their credit.

I remember well an instance of where a young kid (well, probably 16 or 17) wanted to buy some Catachans and build up a jungle IG army. The veteran who insisted on helping him out went into the "Crapachans" skreed, how NOBODY plays with these, they are horrible models, etc. The kid, whose uncle was a Vietnam vet (the kid was raised on his uncle's stories) simply decided that, Okay.. maybe I'll go somehwre else and try something different.

Because of that veteran, the store lost a good chunk of change, and the hobby lost another body to who knows what?

Veterans can be excellent influences, but you need to let the newbie find his way as well. If he is excited by, for example, Necrons, then encourage him to buy and play them, regardless of how hard they might be initially. Let on about the Codex, and how you DO need 2 troops and an HQ, but also don't discourage him from buying something else from the line he might think is way kewl... trying to discourage him from SM in favour of Orks, or anything else like that might simply kill his enthusiasm, especially when he finds he doesn't like certain models, but now his a lot of money tied up in them.

I whole-heartedly support veteran's nights and their prescence in the stores, but I DO understand GW's position, because I have seen the 2% ruin it for the other 98%.

Respects,

Gwedd

carmachu
16-01-2006, 22:30
Gwedd:

Yeah thats true, the vets will pass on their habits, both good and bad.

But how is that any different than a red shirt passing on his? HE has an agenda, to get the kid to buy more models......not necessarily ones he needs or wants either.

Hell, I've seen crappy vets just try to get a quick win in on a newbie. Then again I've seen that vs a red shirt too.

You gotta take the good with the bad....

Chris_Tzeentch
16-01-2006, 22:38
The GW stores in the UK employed this tactic a good few years back, and it backfired big time. History repeats itself.....

Mad Makz
16-01-2006, 22:41
I think it is vital for their to be a good relationship between GW stores as hobby stores and gaming clubs. Good gaming clubs promote the hobby of wargaming enough to keep people playing in the long run. GW stores don't offer enough for veterans to keep playing at because of the limitations of space/hours of operation, need for the store to act as a place to sell miniatures.

I think this will only work however if GW help incentivise people to starting Gaming Club with good gaming club support. Disincentivising people from playing in stores is going to be a negative, the question should be "How do we get people to start up successful gaming clubs and support them in the hobby?" rather than "How do we get veterans out of the stores?".

In the end, it's the same effect, but one approach is positive, the other is negative.

ZAChos
16-01-2006, 22:59
The main problem I see is that if GW run their own vets nights they need to pay their BLUEshirts extra monies to stay on and run it. What they forget is that the vets are capable of doing other blueshirt stuff like intro games and talking to people about purchases, and don't ask for payment for this.

Rick_1138
16-01-2006, 23:53
"Crapachans" skreed, how NOBODY plays with these, they are horrible models, etc. The kid, whose uncle was a Vietnam vet (the kid was raised on his uncle's stories) simply decided that, Okay.. maybe I'll go somehwre else and try something different.


I agree, the advent of vets placing their own views about armies is something i don't like, yet i see some of the redshirts do it too, i wanted to buy Grey knights for display purposes as my painting is very good, but he walked past goig, "oh they are crap" yes i could have bought them anyway, but i just felt that the store didn't deserve the cash if they are going to verbally bash their products.

Anyhoo, i am looking to become a store manager after graduation, to get some managerial experience before getting a career in marketing.

ah well only a thesis and 5 exams to go......

Melchor
17-01-2006, 00:23
Right... if I were GW what would I rather have?

Veterans with well painted and appealing armies playing in my stores?
Or yelling little kids with n00b-ish (ie. ugly) armies.

Veterans with jobs, a large bank account and a well established addiction for your products?
Or little kids buying one set and losing interest because they glued flock to their forehead?

GW may be an evil company (according to some), hell bent on taking your hard earned cash. But evil companies are just that. Evil. They're not stupid...

Mikhaila
17-01-2006, 00:59
I have it on good authority that GW are looking to oust veterans from stores, not kick us out but remove our wishes to play there i.e only opening stores on tuesday night, no more thursday nights etc.


Not that this topic isn't as worthy as many others to discuss, and argue about for 10 pages, but it's how it's starting out that I find interesting. If someone starts out with "a redshirt told me..", no one takes it serious. But when someone says "i have it on good authority", then it's taken as valid?

I'm sure there are at least some elements of truth to it. I know that GW wants to encourage the formation of more clubs, especially here in the US where they are mostly non existent outside of a store. They also have been trying to use their stores as recruiting centers, and then shift veterans to independent stores to build up independents in areas. And I know that there has been discussion about how to handle veteran groups, and when it's a good group or bad, or whether an individual veteran is good to have around, or bad, and what to do to fix it.

Whether those sentiments extend to the information posted, or the information is being influenced by someones personal view, who knows?
I'll be curious to see how it actually works out, and what steps GW might take to make it happen, if it is the way they are going.

This weekend I had an overflow of gamers in my shop. At one point we had 48feet of tables filled with about 10 games going on, and a half dozen people waiting to play. It was a nice mix of veterans and newbies. The newbies were clustered around the veterans, oohing and ahhing at the nicely painted armies, and asking questions non stop. They also got to see some hard fought games being played, where both players were using tactics, and not just pushing pieces forward. It's hard not to see the value of the veteran player in this instance. Even if it's the kids/parents buying more than the veterans, those veterans were encouraging more sales among the kids, just by being in the shop.

Tonite I'm going back in after the shop closes to measure some space out, and see how I can possibly fit in more tables by next weekend.

likeaknifeinthedark
17-01-2006, 16:58
re: the push from instore veterans gaming to gaming clubs, in the uk GW has been trying to offer incetives for those who do join the GCN (Gaming Club Network). these clubs get advertisement in White Dwarf, at their local store, the possibility of running stuff at games day and special club mail order accounts, with free next day delivery on orders over 75 and the ability to order GWHQ event tickets two weeks before anyone else. think that's a pretty good step in the right direction if they're trying to encourage this personally

Crazy Harborc
17-01-2006, 20:06
IMHO, that good authority was not talking after reading "the official word from on high". More likely, it was started higher up and passed along. OR an idea the employee talking had.

Gaming clubs are a boon to smart indie merchants. Smart merchants will have 'perks" even a discount program/card for club members who are also customers at the store.

Some guy (UK)
17-01-2006, 20:18
To be honest, if I was that guy that Gwedd mentioned- i wouldnt be so easily influenced- he should have just accepted the vet's opinion, and use it to help him decide- to easily influenced i thinks ;)

Later, Some Guy (UK)

Misfratz
17-01-2006, 23:45
... if I were GW what would I rather have?

Veterans with well painted ... armies... jobs, a large bank account and a well established addiction for your products?... They're not stupid...I agree with you 100% I took a day off work shortly before Christmas for various reasons and took advantage of the opportunity to spend a quiet hour in the local GW messing about with Green stuff.

Lo and behold a wrinkly comes in the store with a stunning OK army, complete with Forgeworld Rhinox cavalry, a large group of Maneaters [lovely models], etc.

He was hoping to get a game in against one of the staff, but ended up being called to attend to something work-related.

Had a chat with him and he buys a new army every year [paints them too!], new that he had the Dwarf Army set waiting for him under the Christmas tree but wasn't allowed to touch it yet.

Contrasting my buying habits as a youngster, and the regular drip-drip-drip of money GW get from me now and I too don't understand the dominance of the idea that GW get all/most of their money from 'newbies' or snotty-nosed 13 year olds rather than the vets who are collecting their 3rd marine army [this time its blue and green!] or whatever

Mad Makz
18-01-2006, 10:35
I agree with you 100% I took a day off work shortly before Christmas for various reasons and took advantage of the opportunity to spend a quiet hour in the local GW messing about with Green stuff.

Lo and behold a wrinkly comes in the store with a stunning OK army, complete with Forgeworld Rhinox cavalry, a large group of Maneaters [lovely models], etc.

He was hoping to get a game in against one of the staff, but ended up being called to attend to something work-related.

Had a chat with him and he buys a new army every year [paints them too!], new that he had the Dwarf Army set waiting for him under the Christmas tree but wasn't allowed to touch it yet.

Contrasting my buying habits as a youngster, and the regular drip-drip-drip of money GW get from me now and I too don't understand the dominance of the idea that GW get all/most of their money from 'newbies' or snotty-nosed 13 year olds rather than the vets who are collecting their 3rd marine army [this time its blue and green!] or whatever

Because

A) There are 10-20 of those kids for every 1 veteran player that will buy an army every year and paint it to that standard.

B) Eventually one of those 10-20 kids will turn into one of those veterans, so they'll STILL get the guys money, just later down the track.

C) They don't need to cater in their stores for veterans, ideally the veterans are part of games clubs who can cater for the veterans just fine (and who equally aren't likely to want to put up with snot nosed kids. To do so in fact you'd have to pay them, which is how you end up with GW staff members. :) )

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-01-2006, 14:37
Gwedd:

Yeah thats true, the vets will pass on their habits, both good and bad.

But how is that any different than a red shirt passing on his? HE has an agenda, to get the kid to buy more models......not necessarily ones he needs or wants either.

Hell, I've seen crappy vets just try to get a quick win in on a newbie. Then again I've seen that vs a red shirt too.

You gotta take the good with the bad....

Careful now. Having been a Redshirt, I take the bit about just being there to sell models as something of an uniformed slur.

Indeed, Staffers are trained to sell stuff. But it's the right stuff. Why sell the kid a Mumak, when he doesn;t even have the rulebook? Structured sales result in repeat purchases.

Please refrain from making such statements unless you are truly in posession of all the facts.

Morph
18-01-2006, 15:27
Well it all seems to be pretty sensible to me, try and sell stuff to lots of new people rather than old timers.

I'm a veteran, and I still spend money, but GW has literally no impact upon that. It's only because I'm part of a gaming club (not an official GW one) that I still play and buy. If suddenly my life changed and I decided to give up, I would. GW wouldn't stop me.

It makes far more sense to start a new generation on their way to becoming veterans than try and keep the vets playing.

Persephone
18-01-2006, 15:38
I was told the very same thing by managers at stores in my city. It's pretty clear from the schedule changes, too. They want there to be less in store playing and more people starting their own gaming clubs so the gaming takes place outside of the store. Gaming in the store is mainly for brand new people and for the occasional event.

slaughteredbull
18-01-2006, 15:57
The crazy thing about all this is that GW will only send people to a GCN club, and as someone who took over a club that GW set up in my local area and looking at joining the GCN, me and everyone else in the club decided it wasn't worth the hassle.

Taliesynkp
18-01-2006, 16:28
Careful now. Having been a Redshirt, I take the bit about just being there to sell models as something of an uniformed slur.

Indeed, Staffers are trained to sell stuff. But it's the right stuff. Why sell the kid a Mumak, when he doesn;t even have the rulebook? Structured sales result in repeat purchases.

Please refrain from making such statements unless you are truly in posession of all the facts.

OK.

FACT: I've never been in a GW store that the clerk didn't try a Hard Sell.

FACT: My wife has never been in a GW store that the clerk didn't try a Hard Sell. Once, when my wife was trying to find something for my birthday the clerk kept pushing inappropriate stuff at her till she left in disgust. She knows the armys I collect; you are not going to talk her into buying that Ogre Kingdom crap no matter how hard you try.

FACT: My son will not go into a GW store. Hates the condescending way he's treated. Hates the constant sales pitch.

Mad Doc I know you were just peddling papers to people who have never been to a GW store (good sock-puppet, here's a cookie) but you should have known you'd be called on it.

GW: Great fluff, good minnies, ok rules, terrible staff. The staff problem is probably due to the fact that they pay TERRIBLE.

Chuffy
18-01-2006, 16:32
Well Taliesynkp, thats just your local shop and your experience.

Every GW I've been into the staff have not acted like that at all.

FACT: It happened to me so it must happen everywhere.

Crube
18-01-2006, 16:34
OK.

FACT: I've never been in a GW store that the clerk didn't try a Hard Sell.

FACT: My wife has never been in a GW store that the clerk didn't try a Hard Sell. Once, when my wife was trying to find something for my birthday the clerk kept pushing inappropriate stuff at her till she left in disgust. She knows the armys I collect; you are not going to talk her into buying that Ogre Kingdom crap no matter how hard you try.

FACT: My son will not go into a GW store. Hates the condescending way he's treated. Hates the constant sales pitch.

Mad Doc I know you were just peddling papers to people who have never been to a GW store (good sock-puppet, here's a cookie) but you should have known you'd be called on it.

GW: Great fluff, good minnies, ok rules, terrible staff. The staff problem is probably due to the fact that they pay TERRIBLE.


OK

FACT - As a redshirt I was trained to sell stuff appropriate for the customer

FACT - As a redshirt I spent more time running games, and discusisng people's armies with them than selling

FACT - All it normally takes is 2 visits for staff to get to know you. After this, they're on your side

FACT - I have no idea which GW store you've been to, but all the ones I've been in have been fine (and that's about 15 as a customer throughout the UK

Oh, and one more thing. Redshirts are no more glove puppets than any other member of staff at any other comany. You follow the company line becasue they ay your wages. if you don't you lose your job. FACT

IMO Many GW staff are their best assets. (not all, but most). Around here anyway...

Rik Valdis
18-01-2006, 16:37
OK.

FACT: I've never been in a GW store that the clerk didn't try a Hard Sell.

FACT: My wife has never been in a GW store that the clerk didn't try a Hard Sell. Once, when my wife was trying to find something for my birthday the clerk kept pushing inappropriate stuff at her till she left in disgust. She knows the armys I collect; you are not going to talk her into buying that Ogre Kingdom crap no matter how hard you try.

FACT: My son will not go into a GW store. Hates the condescending way he's treated. Hates the constant sales pitch.

Mad Doc I know you were just peddling papers to people who have never been to a GW store (good sock-puppet, here's a cookie) but you should have known you'd be called on it.

GW: Great fluff, good minnies, ok rules, terrible staff. The staff problem is probably due to the fact that they pay TERRIBLE.


FACT: I've never been in a store where the staff did try a hard sell

FACT: I enjoy going to my local GW for a bit if I have some spare time just for a chat about the hobby

FACT: I dont like shopping in indies because they dont have the familiarity with the line that GW staff do.

I know you were just moaning because thats whats cool to do on the internet (good internet hardman, have a cookie) but you should have know you'd be called on it.

Taliesynkp
18-01-2006, 16:58
FACT: I've never been in a store where the staff did try a hard sell

Perhaps a hard sell wasn't necessary. You sound like you were a very good customer without being prodded. Some sheep line up to be fleeced.



FACT: I enjoy going to my local GW for a bit if I have some spare time just for a chat about the hobby

Good for you. The people at my store seemed like nice guys, too. Just not very bright.



FACT: I dont like shopping in indies because they dont have the familiarity with the line that GW staff do.

Alas, too true. That's why I started frequenting Portent and Direwolf all those years ago.



I know you were just moaning because thats whats cool to do on the internet (good internet hardman, have a cookie) but you should have know you'd be called on it.

No, I moan because all my miniatures have a thick layer of dust on them from lack of use. Every good player I know has quit and sold their stuff.

Weird that you think you're calling me on something though. I'm just really pissed by the number of obvious GW reps that are trolling these boards. The professional paranoic in me wonders if GW killed Portent and resurrected the corpse as Warseer.

Crube
18-01-2006, 17:01
I'm just really pissed by the number of obvious GW reps that are trolling these boards. The professional paranoic in me wonders if GW killed Portent and resurrected the corpse as Warseer.


Ouch...

I freely admit I used to work for GW. in stores, in MO, in Trade Sales, in GWi...and I enjoyed it.

In the end though, i got screwed over twice, so I have an Axe to grind like many other people here. I do however still enjoy the game and models, and do take exception when people make ill informed generalisations about GW staff.

Don't forget, that Warseer is predominantly (AFAIK) a Gw board. There are forums / threads for non GW games, but the majority of us here are here to talk about a game we like / love

likeaknifeinthedark
18-01-2006, 17:08
The crazy thing about all this is that GW will only send people to a GCN club, and as someone who took over a club that GW set up in my local area and looking at joining the GCN, me and everyone else in the club decided it wasn't worth the hassle.

that's cos the GCN has a child protection policy, and it would not look good for GW if they sent someone to a club and something happened. I'm a member of a club that joined the GCN about a year ago, and it wasn't a hassle to do that, in fact the GCN guys were very helpful. As such we've had the benefits of the accounts, some free scenery, paints and a gaming board donated to us from the community team, our results counting double in the LOTR summer campaign last year and finally getting a preview of the new LOTR rulebook, and mines of moria set over a month and a half before they were released. Personally I've found being a member of the GCN very useful.

Rik Valdis
18-01-2006, 17:14
Perhaps a hard sell wasn't necessary. You sound like you were a very good customer without being prodded. Some sheep line up to be fleeced.
Yeah maybe, or maybe you are just wrong! Three people posted in quick succession to disagree with you which does suggest that you experiences are isolated and little personal digs won't change that. The staff in every store I have been to have been helpful but not pushy, I have been in lots of GW stores around the country and have only ever bought something other than WD in about 2, I have never felt pressured to do otherwise.




No, I moan because all my miniatures have a thick layer of dust on them from lack of use. Every good player I know has quit and sold their stuff.


Try meeting some others then.... Maybe if you went into stores then you might meet some.




Weird that you think you're calling me on something though. I'm just really pissed by the number of obvious GW reps that are trolling these boards. The professional paranoic in me wonders if GW killed Portent and resurrected the corpse as Warseer.
Oh come on, just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they have to be being paid to do so. I am just as much an obvious GW rep as you are an obvious PP or Mongoose rep, less so I would say as GW clearly have a lot of loyal customers, perhaps less than in the recent past but still, they clearly have a customer base willing to pay. You may not have noticed but I said I was calling you on something as my post was supposed to be mirroring your previous one.

carmachu
18-01-2006, 19:38
Careful now. Having been a Redshirt, I take the bit about just being there to sell models as something of an uniformed slur.

Indeed, Staffers are trained to sell stuff. But it's the right stuff. Why sell the kid a Mumak, when he doesn;t even have the rulebook? Structured sales result in repeat purchases.

Please refrain from making such statements unless you are truly in posession of all the facts.


BTDT, seen the pushy red shirts try to sell all sorts of crap that didnt really need, nor to other people. AND its not just me who has horror stories of GW shops.

Experience tends to do that.

YOU might have been a better type of employee, just as Mal's stroe tends to be a better type of store. But that doesnt make what I said any less true, nor any less that there are crappier stores out there.

carmachu
18-01-2006, 19:43
Yeah maybe, or maybe you are just wrong! Three people posted in quick succession to disagree with you which does suggest that you experiences are isolated and little personal digs won't change that. The staff in every store I have been to have been helpful but not pushy, I have been in lots of GW stores around the country and have only ever bought something other than WD in about 2, I have never felt pressured to do otherwise.


INteresting logic: 2 people have bad experiences, but since 3 people in a row had good ones, it MUST be true.

There's good and bad everywhere. I've had the bad, you've had the good.

Taliesynkp
18-01-2006, 20:37
In service to honesty I have to say that I have, in fact, had many good experiences in GW shops, mostly at the one in Darmstadt. The one in Paris - UGH. My negative comments were a knee-jerk response to Mad Doc's knee-jerk defense of GW.

OK. You used to work for GW. You did not suck while you worked there. Therefore GW does not suck. Flawed syllogism.

Wolf Scout Ewan
18-01-2006, 21:39
Its the dedicated veterans that always spend the most cash in stores. Cash cow parents are going to think twice about spending 50 quid on a new box every month.

True vets tend to have 100's of pounds of unpainted new stuff.

Agamemnon2
19-01-2006, 05:34
I'm seeing way too many false generalizations here, on all sides. People are building cases on fundamentally flawed statistical data.

hiram
19-01-2006, 06:17
As you all probably know I am a current GW employee in the US. As such I simply can understand how shops in the UK are doing what they are doing.

They are tring to build a hobby community. Nothing more nothing less. Now, they may be doing it the wrong way, but lets face it they are English and have to make it wierd in some way. Blood sausage?:wtf:

I'm trying the same thing in may shop but still run my Vet night every wed. night, as amatter of fact I just had a grip of guys in playing the Seven Knights scenario.

While on the subject some of the "vets" that come in the shop are absolute a**holes, they are rude to other hobbyists disregard the rules of the shop and generlly IMO portray a poor face of the GW hobby. We don't want elitist jerks in the shop then no one has fun because that guy thinks their army is not "worthy" to be in the shop. BALDERDASH!

Unfortunatly though these guys pass their horrible, not just bad but horrible, habits onto newer guys.

Case in point;
last friday I'm at the FLGS and a kid asks if he can play me at WH. Isay yes and break out my Empire while he breaks out his Wood Elves. Over the first 2 turns the kid is acting just like the local "champ", being an absolute a** of rare character. Now I'm a fairly easy going guy but I couldn't take it any more, I was not having fun. I told the kid he was being a prick and I would end the game if he didn't change his attittude stat.

Moral: If your a "vet" teach the newr guys to play for fun, to win yes but more over to have fun. This may be the one major factor that many "vets" forget that gets under a staff members skin.

Why you ask?

because it is a game!!!:)

Nurglitch
19-01-2006, 07:21
I'm seeing way too many false generalizations here, on all sides. People are building cases on fundamentally flawed statistical data. It's a Warseer tradition to engage in fallacies of basic reasoning. At least the weak reasoning skills match well with the idiosyncratic uses of grammar and spelling.

Agamemnon2
19-01-2006, 09:57
Ouch, and people call me mean. :D

Charax
19-01-2006, 10:07
I haven't worked for GW in just over two years, but when I did, this was *very much* the theme of things. Vets may well have large bank balances and jobs, but GW would rather have a stream of kids pestering their parents for a 150+ army that they'll get bored of after a month than a group of vets making considered and well-thought-out purchases. GW is always, always focussed on the new gamer, and cares little for how long they stay in the hobby.

Vets are a nice way to advertise the hobby, but GW would much rather use those tables for running intros than letting vets take part in the hobby they love, that's just the way it is.

Rick_1138
19-01-2006, 11:20
this is true, but as has been said in an earlier post, the company tried this before, and it bit them on the ass, they try to cut hours of staff and remove key timers etc in a bid to save cash, it resuklted in a lot of people being fired from mid management. again history repeats itself

slaughteredbull
19-01-2006, 16:20
that's cos the GCN has a child protection policy, and it would not look good for GW if they sent someone to a club and something happened. I'm a member of a club that joined the GCN about a year ago, and it wasn't a hassle to do that, in fact the GCN guys were very helpful. As such we've had the benefits of the accounts, some free scenery, paints and a gaming board donated to us from the community team, our results counting double in the LOTR summer campaign last year and finally getting a preview of the new LOTR rulebook, and mines of moria set over a month and a half before they were released. Personally I've found being a member of the GCN very useful.

What I'm getting at here though is GW literaly come to my local library, set up my local club, then abandoned it, you would of at least thought they would have helped through into the GCN. And for a bunch of kids it really is quite hard for them to set up bank accounts, child protection policies, insurance policies, commitees ect.

And just to add not a single librarian here has any knowledge of how and when the club was set up in the first place now due GW style cut backs.

carmachu
19-01-2006, 18:33
Yeah like RL responsibilties dont interfer with RUNNING something else, instead of them just wanting to push toy soldiers and throw some dice.

Not saying you cant, but if you had a choice of spending time setting up and running a club, or just playing......

carmachu
19-01-2006, 19:08
Dont get me wrong, I'm in a club,a private pay to play, non-profit club. But the man hours to set it up, and jump through all the hoops, is a bit daunting for your average person. The stories I could tell.

It isnt easy, but it is rewarding.

carmachu
19-01-2006, 19:32
But there in lies the problem. Most people cant or wont set one up: you need space, either rental or other, enough people to pay consistantly, bilaws, officers, and so on......

Its not so simple to set up, and why folks would rather play in store, GW or Indy.

Rabid Bunny 666
19-01-2006, 20:40
in maidenhead, vets night is from 6:00PM to 8:00PM, the worst night for me to go down, and the worst time, its annoying, but i haven't played a game that isn't against BTs for 3 weeks now, its annoying

Misfratz
19-01-2006, 23:29
...enough people to pay consistantly...This is the thing. I've been involved in things where I've given time to set them up and promote them, and people who I thought would help me, haven't bothered and then they're all so surprised when there aren't people to come regularly.

I did hear that there were even some GW stores where the staff outnumbered the Vets on some Veteran nights [in the UK]. If even the established stores have problems attracting people, then it can make you nervous to put the time in to arrange something when you can't be sure that others will come.

Venkh
19-01-2006, 23:44
@Rabid Bunny 666
If you live in Maidenhead why dont you go to W.A.R (weds) or Spiky (thurs till late)? Thats 2 clubs within 15 miles.
Whats more at W.A.R there is a decent number of players (not as many as spiky) and almost no MEQ's

Ah! just noticed that you live in Slough, I guess you are still in mourning.

Rgds

Azazel
22-01-2006, 05:17
Those idoits need us Veterans. Who else is going to correct the store manager while hes teaching some new people? Hell not even the official magazine gets everything right.

carmachu
22-01-2006, 16:50
carmachu: Yes, it's too much trouble for some people. I have no sympathy for people that won't invest the time and effort that their hobby may require. Maybe stores should cater to those who can't, but this group strikes me as exceedingly small.


WOW thats cold. I mean I'm part of one, but I dont have time to build it from groudn zero. I run a small business and have a wife and family. IF I'm lucky, I have a couple hours one day a week to play.

I cant be alone in time wise. You might want to show a bit of sympathy....I mean thats why people play in tehir basements....





From my experience in avoiding store gaming, you don't really need stores or clubs. Plywood for gaming tables and materials for terrain are both cheap. Mail order services tend to be cheaper than brick-and-mortar stores. And I'd much rather play with my regular group of friends than with some guys I just know through the club or store.

Yeah. I hear that.

carmachu
22-01-2006, 16:55
This is the thing. I've been involved in things where I've given time to set them up and promote them, and people who I thought would help me, haven't bothered and then they're all so surprised when there aren't people to come regularly.

I did hear that there were even some GW stores where the staff outnumbered the Vets on some Veteran nights [in the UK]. If even the established stores have problems attracting people, then it can make you nervous to put the time in to arrange something when you can't be sure that others will come.

I've been part of various groups, and its not just the vets that can be problems: stores change their minds mid-stream about what they want. I've had one store decide that they didnt want the club around and was willing to lose about 10% of sales. They wanted to do more internet sales, less store stuff. *shrug*

Another had a different club, kick them out, bring them back, kick them out, rinse and repeat.

Now we rent our own space. Safest thing and a good core willing to do so.

Brimstone
22-01-2006, 17:03
There is a edit function please do not double post.

The Judge
24-01-2006, 15:22
Who else is going to correct the store manager while hes teaching some new people?

That's exactly the attitude that they don't like - even if you are right, IT DOES NOT MATTER. If the n00bs play the wrong rules with their friends, why do you care? - if they play against you (God forbid), correct them then. We go to the stores to be constructive - if vets come in when they're trying to do lessons with younger players, we should at least do something useful other than interrupt.
Vet's nights are here to stay unless demand falls too low, and then its down to the store manager's choice. Just remember that aren't the be all and end all of the shop.

Taliesynkp
24-01-2006, 19:32
Vet's nights are here to stay unless demand falls too low, and then its down to the store manager's choice. Just remember that aren't the be all and end all of the shop.

Yeah, I got that a long time ago. So did a lot of other long time players. So what is going to bring new customers into the store? You no longer have me or my friends talking about the game at school or work. We're no longer around offering to teach people how to play or paint. Do you rely on them to just wander into the store? When they do find their way to the store who do they play against? The few other people that are currently in that "18 month window" we keep hearing about? Or do they just play against store staff?

hiram
27-01-2006, 02:03
Those idoits need us Veterans. Who else is going to correct the store manager while hes teaching some new people? Hell not even the official magazine gets everything right.

Yeah but we need you to be customers just like you need us to make toy soldiers.

and by the by, its annoying when I'm trying to teach someone new to the hobby how movement works and a "vet" busts in with "thats a stupid move i would do this.":mad:

blitz589
27-01-2006, 02:12
When ever me and my frends go there, we make a point for atleast one of us to buy something, It helped stop most of their whining.

hiram
27-01-2006, 03:18
And thats the way it should be, pay where you play.

I buy somthing every time I go to someone else's shop.

Azazel
28-01-2006, 05:03
and by the by, its annoying when I'm trying to teach someone new to the hobby how movement works and a "vet" busts in with "thats a stupid move i would do this.":mad:

Yeah and its funny when the manager has to double check a Space Marines / Termaguants 'I' while figuring out if they caught them in a Sweeping Advance or not.

hiram
28-01-2006, 05:13
I don't take the time to memoris estats for an army I don't play myself or play against often.

Thats why it's written down so we don't have to memorise them. As an aside do any of you have any idea how many things are going on in a managers mind at any one point, I do it sucks, I have to schedule my lunches ever since I went into training or I don't take one.

Kenshinzo 7
28-01-2006, 12:58
The problem with most of us veterans is arrogance! We think we know more about the game than anyone else . I can see where the veterans have done a lot of damage to the hobby, even in the rogue trader stores and I think it comes from this tournament mentality that they all seem to have! I 've been playing for 18 years and I've always played for fun, but some people want to tell others what they should and shouldn't buy. Just because you don't like a particular unit, don't try to make everyone else hate it to, Let the kids make up they're on minds what they want to buy and maybe we can start getting people back into the hobby instead of losing people.

Gwedd
28-01-2006, 13:18
The problem with most of us veterans is arrogance! We think we know more about the game than anyone else . I can see where the veterans have done a lot of damage to the hobby, even in the rogue trader stores and I think it comes from this tournament mentality that they all seem to have! I 've been playing for 18 years and I've always played for fun, but some people want to tell others what they should and shouldn't buy. Just because you don't like a particular unit, don't try to make everyone else hate it to, Let the kids make up they're on minds what they want to buy and maybe we can start getting people back into the hobby instead of losing people.

Comrade,

My point exactly. If a kid WANTS to buy the Catachan plastics, then let him buy them and lay off the comments. Encourage him to paint them up and bring them in to play.

I've spent many a time with a kid who didn't have a "legal" army yet, just a box of figures he painted up. So we tossed out the "mandatory" choices bit and played with what he had and some of my stuff. What that did was to keep his interest up. While we were playing I'd casually let him know what the FOC was all about and what he was missing so he could plan his purchases out. The nice thing was that he was learning that all adults aren't going to talk down to him, that it's okay to make mistakes (but you need to learn from them) and he was also learning the rules one step at a time, introducing new units as he could afford them.

One thing that we used to do that helped the store owner out was to pay to play. Mind you, this was an indy store, not a GW store. Still, and all, he had a store to run and rent to pay and that floor space the tables take up is quite a bit of the overall area in there. So, we instituted a small charge of $2.00 per person per game. That money, for WH40K and such went to the store's coffers and helped to cover the rent, electricity, water, sewer, etc.

In return, we got the ability to play with some excellent terrain, hang around in a cool shop and have a place in the back where we could both store stuff between games that was pretty secure and a place to paint/work on minis, etc.

That extra money was a tidy source of income for the shop that allowed the owner to also acquire some really nice terrain. We also helped in construction and painting of it, and in turn, that helped keep it in good shape, since we had a 'stake" in it as we had helped make it.

You also had to lean up after your game or you would not be allowed to rent space/times in the future.

Anyway, just some thoughts for discussion.

Respects,

Gwedd

Kenshinzo 7
28-01-2006, 19:00
I agree Gwedd! I think its a good idea to pay to play too, it helps store managers make a little money on the side when product doesn't sell. If this had happened here in NC, I don't think we would have lost as many stores as we did this year and last. During 2005 we lost 10 gaming stores including our official GW store.

The Judge
28-01-2006, 19:11
Yeah and its funny when the manager has to double check a Space Marines / Termaguants 'I' while figuring out if they caught them in a Sweeping Advance or not.


I feel sorry for all the managers who go on this site, and on behalf of most veterans, do not share this kind of belief - we all get the rules wrong occasionally, anyone who doesn't is a freaking machine, or just a freak. Lay off the staff!

Nurglitch
28-01-2006, 19:39
we all get the rules wrong occasionally, anyone who doesn't is a freaking machine, or just a freak. Lay off the staff! Or that person has simply taken the trouble of actually reading the rules carefully.

philbrad2
28-01-2006, 22:00
Right... if I were GW what would I rather have?

Veterans with jobs, a large bank account and a well established addiction for your products?
Or little kids buying one set and losing interest because they glued flock to their forehead?


I put myself in the former of this ... I've spent and will spend more with GW in my years of gaming than any 'snot nosed n00b' (sorry to all the 'snot-nosed-n00bs' out there :D ) who takes on GW gaming for a year or two before moving onto their next fad ...

Vets are the backbone of GW's customer base, even though all don't attend playing in stores (I count myself amongst these) such a policy would be ludicrious. With GW in enough troubles with sales alienating a chunk of their customer base is the last thing they should do.

:chrome:

Azazel
28-01-2006, 22:36
I don't take the time to memoris estats for an army I don't play myself or play against often.

Well in all my years Ive played (at one time or another) every race (except Sisters of Battle). After that its just a question of how sharp your memory is.

Killgore
29-01-2006, 01:35
my own experiences with veterans:

theres 3 types

1: vet who still buys new models who isn't bossy and enjoys gaming- this is the best type

2: vet whos full of biased advice and puts customers of certain products "oh you don't want that expensive land raider, far to many points"- the shop keeper sheds a silent tear for his lost income

3: vet who sits around with his army he got in the 1st/ 2nd ed days and dosn't buy anything new- basicaly there to socialise but not good for the shop owners bank balance


i can see why gw is pushing vets out, but i don't really agree with it... a good remedy would to keep the 16/18+ years of age veterans night, gamers who have had the chance to form an opinion of what they want form the game and to leave the kids to the mercy of gw in their own gaming night

Nurglitch
29-01-2006, 06:58
Killgore: Now there's an interesting point. The second and third types of veterans need clubs rather than shops to accomodate them.

Adept
29-01-2006, 08:23
Indeed.

I've never lived within 200 kms (or 125 miles) of a GW store, so I've never even considered hanging out in one, or just popping in for a casual game. From the times I've been to GW stores, I can't imagine why anyone would want to game there, or hang out there. For gods sake, it's a retail outlet! You might as well hang out in a shoe store. At least they would have more seats.

I am constantly bemused by people talking about vets in GW stores, thinking to myself "Don't these people have gaming clubs to go to?"

Thats an area where GW could, with little cost to themselves, really help the gaming community and get the veteran gamers back on-side, by creating and supporting gaming clubs. I'd be loathe to have GW actually run the things, because people like to play other games at clubs and such, but having GW put notices in their store windows about local clubs, run a club directory in WD, and just help out where they can would help everyone in the long run.

Brandir
29-01-2006, 16:45
I think that GW is correct to encourage the development of Warhammer playing clubs. It is a great marketing ploy but also is very beneficial for clubs. By having a poster in a local GW and contact details in WD and on the GW web site a clubs increases its exposure in the gaming community. And clubs need new members to continue and evolve.

The CRB and insurance that GW helps out with are also a great incentive for a club to join the GCN.

Most GW shops don't have a dedicaed gaming area. So I am all for the shop floor being primarily aimed at newer gamers. It can only help in developing the hobby and ensuring GW's continued existence.

Gaming clubs are, in my opinion, a much better place for gamers to play than GW gaming rooms or shops. For starters there is generally more room. But key for me at the moment, I can play non-GW games (essentially WARMACHINE).

Aaron
29-01-2006, 18:47
Gaming clubs are, in my opinion, a much better place for gamers to play than GW gaming rooms or shops. For starters there is generally more room. But key for me at the moment, I can play non-GW games (essentially WARMACHINE).

I agree.

Clubs give you a lot more freedom and flexibility in what you play and how you play it. You can also usually eat food and use the amble seating at clubs too. :)

You'll never get the most out of wargaming stuck in a small shop and forming your own club isn't as hard as many think.

I don't really agree with the GCN approach GW has taken to clubs, but I'll save that discussion for another thread.

Crazy Harborc
29-01-2006, 23:06
IMHO, I can safely speak out about "Warhammer gaming clubs" in my area. NOT going to happen until/unless GW comes up with a decent discount program for the club's members.

There already is a gaming club in my area (St.Louis and counties around it). They allow GW's systems to be played........Sometimes there's one played, not too often.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
29-01-2006, 23:54
I've noticed there are some people who seems to, well, always be there at the GW store. I occasionally go into my local GW store to buy something and there's a handful of regulars who never seem to leave. They are quite neurotic and from what I've seen they regularly belittle younger players in front of some of the staff members with impunity. Its like they all live there together.

There used to be some staff members who were more friendly, but they all left once they finished college/university and got different jobs, leaving the perpetually angry no social skills staff members to run the store. I still go in there to play but the atmosphere isn't what it once was, the sort of behaviour some people excercise in GW stores isn't acceptable in any other social situation I'm involved in, which is my gripe, you can't really avoid them since the store isn't that big and you need as many people to play against as possible for the sake of variety.

7DrunkenPirates
30-01-2006, 05:11
Ok...i didnt read this whole thread (only like the first 4 pages and the last). The GW i go to is ALWAYS open, the staff is really cool and sometimes dont always chat about GW stuff (really depends on if theres alot of customers in the store or not, and the Steelers were a big topic last week).

Well at the local GW store there are 4 categories of players:
1. (Top of crop) The hardcore vets- players who have been playin for like 15+yrs hardcore vets only like 2 or 3 of them...only come to talk and play games with other hardcores or vets.

2. Then theres the vets (2nd highest rank)- the n00bs and regulars turn to them for advice on buying stuff and some gaming advice.

3. Regulars- not exactly good enough to be vets vary in playing experience and age

4. N00bs- everyone hates them...most are really really annoying but there are the select few who are cool to be around.

Me personally i've been deemed a vet....personally i dont think im all that good. Sometimes the redshirts will direct (only if theyre busy) some potential buyers to me and show them a quick game and some stuff to buy. I've been playin for about 5yrs now (im 16)..and I started as one of those snot-nosed n00bs everybody hated. But I was bitch-slapped, learned to paint (better), and worked on some strategys and earned respect from alot of the players there.

Edit: Im not sure how it is there in the U.K. or anything i've only played here in the U.S and once in Canada.

hiram
30-01-2006, 09:04
Well in all my years Ive played (at one time or another) every race (except Sisters of Battle). After that its just a question of how sharp your memory is.
Not that I don't try I but I have way to many people asking way to many different questions all at the same time. So I really don't have time to focus on one set at any one time, working on fantasy right now though.:p

Trench_Raider
31-01-2006, 21:16
this development should come as a suprise to no one who has been paying attention for any length of time. It's been a long time coming. And from a purely cynical point of view it ebven makes sense as catering to the kiddies rather than the vets who helped make the copany a success is better for the short term buck.

Previous examples are too numerous to list in their entirety, but consider the following:
-The dumbing down of rules in recent editions and making trhe fluff more kid friendly
-The insulting "kids, kids, kids" memo leaked in the late '90s that spelled out this policy and dismissed veteran players as "whiners".
-The gradual reduction in the sale of archive and collector models (many older players prefer older scupts)
-The constant push of "newer is better" in WD. Anyone recall the "40k revised" and the Bugman charater profile articles that glaring contrasted poorly painted (or even unpainted) oldr models with their more recent counterparts painted to "golden Daemon" standard?
-The abortive attempt to ban OOp stuff from GW tournies.

The bottom line is that GW does not care one bit about the people who made them a success in the first place. It's classic eample of "use 'em and discard them".

Moreover the predictable defense of the company by the usual suspects (GW apologists and employees with an exagerated sense of company loyalty) is laughable.

"Trench Raider"

triafata
31-01-2006, 21:58
What was the "kids kids kids" memo from the late 90's? Sounds juicy!

Chuffy
31-01-2006, 22:05
I feel sorry for all the managers who go on this site, and on behalf of most veterans, do not share this kind of belief - we all get the rules wrong occasionally, anyone who doesn't is a freaking machine, or just a freak. Lay off the staff!

Yeah I mean it's not like it's their job to learn the three core systems and the basic rules of those gam-

Oh.

Alco Engineer
31-01-2006, 23:02
Well I finally read it all.

I'm down here in Oz and I'm seeing this too. My local GW decided just before xmas last year to end vets nights. I'd been going there for about 7 months (I've never lived near a GW before) and only going on 1 night a week. I work during the week (an hour from the local GW) and spend thursday nights grocery shopping (normal games night) and weekends with my fiance/working. I really enjoyed it and the staff were pretty cool as were most of the regular gamers. The news that this was shutting down distressed me as I'm fairly new to the area and all of my old gaming comrades were in another state.

Thankfully the GW store had had flyers for 2 local gaming clubs and so I've been going to one for a couple of weeks.

I must admit that for me it's a good thing. It's an established club (about 3 or 4 years) and the local GW even asked them to start up a vets night to replace the GW version. this was good as it worked well in my diary. The thing that I like most about it and is probably worse for GW is I'm no longer tempted by being surrounded by miniatures all night. I have 4 more or less complete armies and that's all I need. I'll buy my WD's from newsagents now and if I need something I've been buying it online (from other gamers on an Australian based forum) for a lot cheaper than it would be brand new.

I say thank you GW for kicking me out in the cold. You've enabled me to open my eyes and save my money by not being constantly tempted by you displays.

Trench_Raider
01-02-2006, 20:32
What was the "kids kids kids" memo from the late 90's? Sounds juicy!

The "kids, kids, kids" memo was released by GW US in the late '90s and outlined the policy of marketing to small children over vets. It inlcuded such gems as "if the kids are old enough to be tursted not to eat the models they are old enough for warhammer" and generally dismissed vet gamers as meaningless whiners. This memo was leaked and published online.

Some of the apologists have questioned the provinance of this memo, but it was discussed in length on the Warhammer USENET group and former staffers there confirmed that it was sent.

I'll look around and try to find it. I recently moved and when doing so had to re-image my computer so have lost all my old links.

"Trench Raider"

Bravo 26
02-02-2006, 03:00
"Hobby Centers are not for Veterans. Veterans don't buy anything."

Quote from a Metro Manager at a Manager's meeting.

Mikhaila
02-02-2006, 04:39
Maybe that metro manager was reading these boards? If you believe all the posts here, most veterans don't buy much, are quite proud they don't buy much, and when they do, get it on ebay.)

(The above statement, while accurate based on what I see here, is mostly in jest. )

That's a pretty broad statement, and easy to poke holes in. Veterans do buy stuff, it's pretty easy to prove on a daily basis. Although if they don't want veterans in hobby centers, they will be buying stuff on a daily basis from independent retailers, or the internet.

The problem with a company making broad statements, is that you have to then apply those statements to individuals. Even if it's shown that the average veteran doesn't buy much, does that mean that the guy stacking up boxes and blisters is average? Or the veterans that show up every monday and friday to play games don't also support a shop? As a business, I think it's foolish to make a policy statement that loses the shop business. Are you supposed to kick the guy with a beautifully converted/painted army down the road because he has played for too many years? Or tell the guy about to buy his third army that you won't take his money?

I have gaming running every night of the week in my shop, and since kids have school, that sort of makes Mon, Tue, Wed, and Thur, into veteran nights by default. Most of our saturdays and sundays are given over to beginner events, and Saturday afternoon/evening is a mix of vets andbeginners. I don't see the logic of excluding veterans in any form. From a business standpoint, it's throwing away money. From a gaming standpoint, it's tossing out the people with the best painted armies, and who know the rules the best. I greatly enjoy getting a couple games in each week. I try to make one of them with a newer player, but it's the veteran games that I enjoy the most.

Agamemnon2
02-02-2006, 06:18
-The dumbing down of rules in recent editions and making trhe fluff more kid friendly

The 40k fluff still has a long way to go before being PG-13. Let's not forget the Imperium practices genocide, murder, torture, eugenics and religious fundamentalism. It's pretty much a sum total of all offensive and disgusting features of Man, without a single redeeming quality.

I don't consider the game to be dangerous or offensive as such, just that it's the sort of subject that should not be approached lightly. Every time I hear some 13-year-old yell out "Burn the infidels!" or something, I tend to wince. It's not like they even know what a flamethrower does to a person (I've seen some gruesome pictures indeed, and yet nine tenths of the horror is said to be the smell).

It's about understanding what you're doing, informed choice. There's no real harm per se in a 13-year-old wearing a swastika and yelling "Sieg Heil!" because he thinks it's cool, but it's not very smart and shows a lack of respect and forethought (common traits to every single teenager, really). It's better if you understand what the guys who used to wear that uniform used to be up to before you put one on. Though even then, you're liable to get arrested in many places, or on the cover of the tabloids if you happen to be Prince Harry.

I don't think a person should be playing Warhammer 40,000 under they understand what War is.

I'm probably making a less than normal amount of sense here, but it's just that kind of day at the office.

jfrazell
02-02-2006, 18:28
"Hobby Centers are not for Veterans. Veterans don't buy anything."

Quote from a Metro Manager at a Manager's meeting.

Are the initials of that person WP?

Crazy Harborc
02-02-2006, 21:48
Not ALL veterans who post on Warseer don't buy minies anymore. We buy darn few GW minies anymore. We've spent big bucks on GW's stuff. When we were the big buyers there WERE NO darn GW stores spreading into the USA's heartland. Now GW opened one near me. The indies near it (100miles)got something out of the deal too........Wanna figure out what they got??? At least 7 stores are no longer listed in WD for MY part of Missouri.

For myself......I know I've spent over $10K on GW products since GW's been in this country. Then there was my store's money spent with them too. I was one of the people whose money helped to get GW known in the darn country.

Yeah, I know "you got what you paid for".....Did I get support, a long time customer discount? Did I get respect in return for money and support of GW, USA?

Trench_Raider
06-02-2006, 18:32
Agamemnon2-
Your point regarding some games not reflecting the relaity of war is well taken. However the fact remains that ,for the most part, Warhammer fluff has been made far more kid friendly in recent years. I don't know how long you have been gaming, but it used to be much harsher as a whole. Take a look at the original Rogue Trader book for example. The Imperium was a much bleaker place, Space Marines were little more than controlled serial killers, ratlings were sexually promiscuous, and goblins collected the severed sex organs of their enemies. Also take a look at the somewhat graphic depravity of the first two "Realm of Chaos" books which both had a "Suggested for mature readers" label on them. Today's offerings are much rosier.

The one real exception I have seen recently was the Ogre Kingdoms book, which had some rather twisted (and somewhat amusing) stuff in it.

"Trench Raider"

DaSquigBrain
06-02-2006, 23:17
I recently moved from Portland, Oregon to Seattle.

I'd been in Portland for ten years, no GW store, I gamed a local independent, but mostly at a buddies house, with a dozen or so regulars.

I got to say, when I moved up here where there are three GW stores, and visited them, it was a big disappointment.

The closest GW store had just ended it's Veteran's nights, due to a lack of participation...of course, their vet nights were on Wednesday, and the store closed at 8pm, meaning by the time anyone with a regular work schedule got there, they could *maybe* get one game in, if they set up right as they walked in the door.

Now I know that GW is focusing on the younger gamer...quite a few years ago a US redshirt and I had a chat about it, and he told me that by far, the largest source of income for GW was in the 13-15 year old range, and the the average length of time this target audience played GW games was 1 year.

So, on a purely economic basis, GW is playing to their target demographic. They are a publicly traded company, and they exist to make money.

On my first visit to that store, a pair of the target demographic dropped in, with their parents, and the two staffers dropped on them, and went into a hard-sell mode that certainly would have turned me off, if I had been one of the parents. "How much you have to spend?" "Ah well, if you had $10 more, you could get this, which is a really good deal." Queue kids whining to the parents for the extra ten. :P

Again, I understand it. It makes it tough for me, because now I'm left without a local resource to find people to play against.

blackdog
07-02-2006, 01:26
...their vet nights were on Wednesday, and the store closed at 8pm, meaning by the time anyone with a regular work schedule got there, they could *maybe* get one game in, if they set up right as they walked in the door.
I agree that when you factor in having to go there after work it doesn't give you a lot of time to game but to clarify your point they close at 9 not 8.


They are a publicly traded company, and they exist to make money.
:eek: And here I thought all this time they were a charity.


On my first visit to that store, a pair of the target demographic dropped in, with their parents, and the two staffers dropped on them, and went into a hard-sell mode that certainly would have turned me off, if I had been one of the parents. "How much you have to spend?" "Ah well, if you had $10 more, you could get this, which is a really good deal." Queue kids whining to the parents for the extra ten. :P

While I will admit that some can be annoying at times they are usually trying to help by directing you in the right direction. If you know what you're looking for it's very easy to say "no thanks I don't need any help." And guess what? The majority of the time they'll leave you alone. As to the hardsell tactic I have personally never seen it at any of the 3 GW's you mention. Not to say that it didn't happen but I've never seen it.

7DrunkenPirates
07-02-2006, 02:16
Now I know that GW is focusing on the younger gamer...quite a few years ago a US redshirt and I had a chat about it, and he told me that by far, the largest source of income for GW was in the 13-15 year old range, and the the average length of time this target audience played GW games was 1 year.

13-15yr olds....at the local store near me under that category are me (well actually 16) and about 3-4 other people. It seems as if they are focusing ALOT of attention on people younger than that at one point on a Saturday theres like 10-15 high-pitched 10yr olds in there.

Even at the tournaments, there was a 40k tournament about 2months ago and atleast (if not more) than the 16 participants were 10-13. The rest were maybe 20+ that come to the store just for the tourny.

As for gaming clubs, my friends and I usually schedule a game after school or something like that. Since the closest GW is 20-30mins away, and none of us can drive (cept for me...but no car). And during the Dark Crusade, there were two seperate Mega-Battles using the Special Characters for the store, since the manager allowed most of us who knew what we were doin to play with them the actual way. He quoted the 10yr olds who used them as "A bunch of Monkies fighting over a football", so atleast here theres some respect for those who know wat theyre doin.

MIGHTYPanhead
07-02-2006, 04:27
hah! 8 years in the hobby, and i'm only 15!!, take that, taget domographic!

seriously, all this ranting on the GW staff is really baffling to me, every single employee i've met (mind, i'm in canada.. maybe they're just nice people here?) has had a friendly conversation with me, even when i first started.. they never pushed a sale, almost all I did was staff challenge, before they made it only 1000pts.

the fact is, people are different, i'd assume that most people who are GW staffers, were/are avid gamers like most people on these boards, and they know what the customer should be treated like, regardless of bad pay or not. I know that the redshirts in my area love their job, discount, social, time to paint/play while at work.. etc. i mean, if your looking for cash, GW is not the best for it, but people still go there to spread their love of the hobby.

/rant.....

as to discardation of vet night, i never knew about it, i knew of staff challenge, open gaming night... is it in the great white north? or am I crazy? either way, it's not too big of a deal, as most "vets" i know either powergame, rules-lawyer, or are just awesome people to play/talk with, the latter normally have their own gaming groups to go to, i have no regrets to the loss of "vets night", especially if its experiancing a lack of interest.

i'd assume that in stores with avid participation it'll stay, but in those with none at all, why shouldn't they?

7DrunkenPirates
07-02-2006, 21:13
hah! 8 years in the hobby, and i'm only 15!!, take that, taget domographic!

seriously, all this ranting on the GW staff is really baffling to me, every single employee i've met (mind, i'm in canada.. maybe they're just nice people here?) has had a friendly conversation with me, even when i first started.. they never pushed a sale, almost all I did was staff challenge, before they made it only 1000pts.

the fact is, people are different, i'd assume that most people who are GW staffers, were/are avid gamers like most people on these boards, and they know what the customer should be treated like, regardless of bad pay or not. I know that the redshirts in my area love their job, discount, social, time to paint/play while at work.. etc. i mean, if your looking for cash, GW is not the best for it, but people still go there to spread their love of the hobby.

/rant.....

as to discardation of vet night, i never knew about it, i knew of staff challenge, open gaming night... is it in the great white north? or am I crazy? either way, it's not too big of a deal, as most "vets" i know either powergame, rules-lawyer, or are just awesome people to play/talk with, the latter normally have their own gaming groups to go to, i have no regrets to the loss of "vets night", especially if its experiancing a lack of interest.

i'd assume that in stores with avid participation it'll stay, but in those with none at all, why shouldn't they?

I have to completely agree with him on this here.

P.S. Its also nice to see another teen here who admits it...