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Shadowfax
26-09-2009, 21:27
The example I have in mind is from the VC armybook.

One character could take the Skull Staff (+1 to casting and dispelling) and another character could take a Staff of Sorcery (+1 to dispelling). Each character would independently have a +1 to dispel rolls, but would the bonuses be cumulative? I can't recall any rule that requires a specific character to be declared as the "Dispeller-in-chief" during the enemy's magic phase, so I'm thinking that perhaps the bonuses do stack...

Sirroelivan
26-09-2009, 21:37
Egad, there was a lengthy discussion about this a few months ago, http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184670, you might want to have a look at that one.

theunwantedbeing
26-09-2009, 21:52
They stack, although you need to declare their use before rolling any dice to dispel.

T10
27-09-2009, 10:26
They stack, although you need to declare their use before rolling any dice to dispel.

They do not stack unless carried by the same Wizard, and their use does not need to be declared beyond making it clear that the Wizard is in possession of these items.

It seems to be a common misconception that you are not supposed to pick a specific Wizard to perform the Dispel attempt. This is not correct. It isn't explicitly stated that have to dispel with a specific Wizard, only that dispel attempts can indeed be performed even though your army has no Wizards.


Dispel Dice: "Differently from power dice, all dispel dice are collected into the dispel pool and can freely be used by any of the Wizards in the army to dispel enemy spells - they can even be used if there are no Wizards in the army."

This ambiguity isn't all that great a loophole. The items and abilities I've seen that improve dispel rolls are either specific to the Wizard (Staff of Sorcery, Skull Staff) or army-wide (High Elf Magic, Master Rune of Valaya).


Staff of Sorcery: "A Wizard who has this benefits from the arcane power stored within it. Whenever he dispels a spell, his dispel result is increased by 1."

Skull Staff: "The bearer receives +1 to casting and dispelling rolls."

Notice that the Staff of Sorcery is a Common Magic Item and the full description is listed in the Warhammer Rule Book (p. 122).

-T10

T10
27-09-2009, 10:29
Egad, there was a lengthy discussion about this a few months ago, http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184670, you might want to have a look at that one.

That discussion pretty much devolved into a debate on the virtues of the Vampire Counts and Daemon armies. I'd hate to put anyone through the pain of reading through that.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
27-09-2009, 15:28
They do not stack unless carried by the same Wizard, and their use does not need to be declared beyond making it clear that the Wizard is in possession of these items.

Page 109
any number of magic items can be combined to boost the score, but the player must declare that he is using any items before he makes the dispel dice roll. It is not premitted to roll the dice and a magic item retrospectively.

So yeah, I'm right on this.

Nowhere does it state that a specific wizard is forced to make a dispel attempt, so they arent.

Condottiere
27-09-2009, 15:36
Makes them sound like a coven. Dispel die are generated individually and pooled, so is the fluff explanation that everyone can sense magic when it's aimed at your general direction and can collectively neutralize it?

sulla
27-09-2009, 21:20
Makes them sound like a coven. Dispel die are generated individually and pooled, so is the fluff explanation that everyone can sense magic when it's aimed at your general direction and can collectively neutralize it?I take it you've never been infernal gateway'd or anvil'd while out of sight of the caster? Wizards know everything on the entire battlefield.. you can never surprise them and they combine their powers in perfect harmony... "You in the forest, cast now, then you on the far flank; you cast. Excellent, you have used up all their dispelling power. Now I will unleash the uberspell!"

T10
27-09-2009, 22:30
Nowhere does it state that a specific wizard is forced to make a dispel attempt, so they arent.

While I agree that the rules are non-specific, I don't agree with your conclusion. The situation is this:

A: You must pick specific a Wizard that makes the dispel attempt, or
B: The dispel attempt is a "communal effort".

You have simply chosen the latter.

I feel the former warrants merit since both the common magical items that deal with dispels attribut the dispel attempt to the wizard carrying the item. I already quoted the Staff of Sorcery previously. The Dispel Scroll reads as follows:

"...As soon as a spell has been cast, any Wizard who has a Dispel Scroll can read it instead of attempting to dispel the spell using dispel dice."

Furthermore, the rules for dispelling makes special allowances for not having any Wizards in the army. I take this to mean exactly what is says: You still get to make a dispel attempt representing "natural magical resistance" and it deals with the "extraordinary" situation of not having a Wizard to perform the dispel.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
27-09-2009, 23:04
It still doesnt state that you need to dispel from a specific mage, or that you can only benefit from the items on a particular mage.

It would have done if that was the intention.

Urgat
27-09-2009, 23:13
Well, the rule says the dispell dies can be used by any of the wizards. Now I agree that my english isn't perfect, but I don't see "any" as being restrictive to one wizard. Maybe you can say "my wizards dispell, they all take a dice"?

Condottiere
27-09-2009, 23:32
Gets more interesting in alliance matches.

My Wizard has a Staff of Sorcery, my allies are High Elves. If you pool, do we dispel at +2?

Urgat
28-09-2009, 02:58
Dunno, don't care, the staff of sorcery works with the staff of sneaky stealing, that's all that matters to me :p
(but to answer, no, at least not here. We don't have allies share dice pools or things like that, nor can they use the other general's ld, etc. Consistency, heh?)

Kroxigore
29-09-2009, 13:20
Page 109
any number of magic items can be combined to boost the score, but the player must declare that he is using any items before he makes the dispel dice roll. It is not premitted to roll the dice and a magic item retrospectively.

So yeah, I'm right on this.

Nowhere does it state that a specific wizard is forced to make a dispel attempt, so they arent.

To me this sentence (the quote from the rulebook) makes it clear, you can combine the items of two wizards. This might be helpful against these invocation of spam-hek tactics!

Whaagnomore
30-09-2009, 18:40
Its kinda clear that the different bonuses stack, atleast to me...
Seeing as you dont actually need ANY wizards to do dispel attempts and could still add bonuses to the dispel from whatever items other nonwizards possess giving such a bonus.

ARabidNun
30-09-2009, 19:22
I agree if you have blanket effects/bonuses such as high elfs that ALL wizards gain the +1 to dispel, but the Skull staff and Staff of Sorcery explicitly state that it is only the BEARER that gains this additional bonus.

A high elf wizard with one of these items would gain a bonus of +2 whereas a vampire would only stack the bonus if he was in possession of two artifacts, not all of the vampires in the army, since they are not blanket bonuses as T10 quoted and explained.

I don't believe there is any rule that states you need to select one, and only one, item to gain a benefit as you are allowed to purchase several enchanted items for your character. So yes, the should be stackable if the wizard is in possession of both.

Atrahasis
01-10-2009, 08:14
You cannot purchase several Enchanted Items for a character; a model may only carry one item from each category.

Most such items are Arcane items anyway.

Max1mum
01-10-2009, 08:50
the items themselfs quite clearly say 'the bearer gets +1 to dispel'

...your not giving +1 S to all your characters just because one of them has a sword of might do you ?

...or +1 armour save to all your warriors in a unit because you bought - one - shield ?

Zilverug
01-10-2009, 09:24
Seeing as you dont actually need ANY wizards to do dispel attempts and could still add bonuses to the dispel from whatever items other nonwizards possess giving such a bonus.

This is an important observation. From it follows quite clearly that it aren't the wizards that make the dispel attempts.

Atrahasis
01-10-2009, 09:27
Just because you can dispel without wizards doesn't mean a wizard isn't dispelling when he uses an item that gives a bonus to dispel.

Max1mum
01-10-2009, 11:28
This is an important observation. From it follows quite clearly that it aren't the wizards that make the dispel attempts.

so a wizzard brings with him a aura of anti magic ?

hence - the dispel dice he generates ?!

-edit-

if the wizzards are not the one's doing the dispelling, then you will never get the the dispel bonus from a item such as the staff of sorcery. Because those clearly give there bonus to the bearer, and if the bearer is not the one doing the dispelling then no bonus is generated.

shadow hunter
01-10-2009, 14:37
What about rolling a dice from one wizard with his +1 to dispell, and another dice from another wizard with his +1 to dispell? Both are dispelling so both use their items.

Just stirring the pot.

Draconian77
01-10-2009, 15:18
As far as I can see these sort of things stack.

The rulebook makes it pretty clear that Wizards don't (individually at least) make dispel attempts and that items can be combined.

I assume the problem occurs because of GW's shoddy wording with regards to the specific items.

T10
01-10-2009, 15:20
Well, that would be the pot full of irrelevance. Dispel dice are put in a common pool, so if indeed a Wizard is making a dispel attempt the dice used do not belong to the Wizard that generated them.

-T10

Max1mum
01-10-2009, 15:22
let's not 'assume' ...;-) assumptions are the base of all evil :P.


The rulebook doesn't make anything clear or else we would not be having this discussion to begin with.

Draconian77
01-10-2009, 15:53
I have never seen the problem with regards to combining dispelling effects, by the phrasing in the book either the player makes a Dispel attempt and combines as many items as he wants.
(This is what you get if you read pages 108 and 109, the rules for dispelling)

Or, if you take the phrasing from page 106 as a rule rather than a description/explanation, there is enough ambiguity there to argue that multiple Wizards can combine their Dispelling efforts and as such, combining their items bonuses is fine even though they say "bearer or character, etc"

My 2 cents.

Asmodiseus
01-10-2009, 16:02
I'll add in the same arguement I had last time this debate was held.

For everyone that believes that wizards are actually making the dispelling attempt, please find me in the rules anywhere it states what the limit is on the number of wizards that can make a dispel attempt.

Player A) I cast fireball on your vampire lord

Me) ok my vampire lord has skull staff and my thrall has SoS so thats +2 to my dispell roll

Player A) You cant do that only the wizard who is dispelling gets a bonus

Me) Both my wizards are dispelling, unless there is a rule I missed that says only one wizard may attempt to dispell a spell at a time

Whaagnomore
01-10-2009, 17:44
Me) Both my wizards are dispelling, unless there is a rule I missed that says only one wizard may attempt to dispell a spell at a time

I can totally see this both rulewise correct and even more fluffwise correct.

Condottiere
02-10-2009, 06:14
Or their separate dispel attempts get in each other's way.

Max1mum
02-10-2009, 10:24
so if their is not a rule to stop you from doing somethings, it's actualy oke to do it ?!


...i wonder what kind of nice little exploit that could become :D

Asmodiseus
02-10-2009, 17:50
so if their is not a rule to stop you from doing somethings, it's actualy oke to do it ?!


...i wonder what kind of nice little exploit that could become :D

While in general I agree that you should adhere to the principle of "If its not in the rules you cant do it", this is a situation in which I believe people are trying to add to the rules to prevent you from doing something that is in fact in the rules.

This is a situation in which the rules about dispelling are non specific about what exactly happens during the dispelling phase, leaving both sides of the debate to pick apart different phrases in an effort to prove their side such as "Well it says his dispel attempt" etc.

GW goes to lengths to emphasize the army wide nature of dispelling, about combining dispel dice into one pool, about the army being able to dispel without a wizard. And yet no where does it state you must nominate a wizard to dispel a spell. You simply roll the dice.

So I'm not trying to use the "It doesnt state in the bookthat I cant, so I can arguement" I'm actually using the "The rules states what I can do, and your adding in restrictions that are not in fact there" argument.

I hope that makes sense to someone.

Alcibiades
03-10-2009, 02:36
GW goes to lengths to emphasize the army wide nature of dispelling, about combining dispel dice into one pool, about the army being able to dispel without a wizard. And yet no where does it state you must nominate a wizard to dispel a spell. You simply roll the dice.
I suppose the argument against this is that usually, you just use your army-wide anti-magic mojo to dispell. However, you can nominate a specific wizard to do the dispelling dirty work, and in doing so, allow him to use any pertinent magical items such as the SoS.

Asmodiseus
03-10-2009, 07:47
I suppose the argument against this is that usually, you just use your army-wide anti-magic mojo to dispell. However, you can nominate a specific wizard to do the dispelling dirty work, and in doing so, allow him to use any pertinent magical items such as the SoS.

This would apply except for the fact that no where in the rule book, or in any FAQ does it ever state that at any time you can or must nominate a wizard to dispel a spell. The rule is simply not there.

Alcibiades
03-10-2009, 15:29
This would apply except for the fact that no where in the rule book, or in any FAQ does it ever state that at any time you can or must nominate a wizard to dispel a spell. The rule is simply not there.

You're right. Which, then, of course, raises the argument of how a Staff of Sorcery would help at all, as its text suggests that it only helps a specific wizard do the dispelling.

Draconian77
03-10-2009, 15:46
Well, there are only a couple of things that we can hypothesize from the discussion so far;

1: Specific Wizards Dispel, hence the wording of certain items.
(No page reference)
Problem: It doesn't mention that anywhere in the rules.

2: Wizards don't Dispel, players Dispel, adding any relevant bonuses.
(Pg108-109)
Problem: Seems to conflict with the wording of certain items.

3: All Wizards can Dispel a cast spell at the same time.
(No page reference)
Problem: Not in the rules for dispelling either.

Out of the 3 options then, #2 certainly seems like the most likely choice.

Dutch_Digger
05-10-2009, 11:05
Something that conflicts with wording of some items sounds like a big problem to me. Bigger then when its not even in the rules.
in order to make #2 an option, you have to assume that there are mistakes in the rules/armybook. Are there?

the way your saying this to me #1 or 3 would make more sense ( i like option 3 :angel:)

artyboy
16-10-2009, 03:31
I vote for option 3. The dispel pool is a cumulative pool. It doesn't say that more than one wizard can't attempt to dispel a spell. It only makes sense that if they can combine their efforts to create a dispel pool that they can combine their efforts to dispel individual spells.

FYI, you can't give a character both the skull staff and the staff of sorcery. They're both arcane items.

stripsteak
16-10-2009, 03:38
Count Mannfred can take them both

artyboy
16-10-2009, 03:42
Touche. He'd actually be a good candidate for taking both of them, too.