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Invader Nails
28-09-2009, 01:45
Humbly submitted for review by the Warseer veterans. I'm quite rusty at WFB, and I just picked up the Dark Elves book. After tinkering around with it for a while and browsing the tactica threads here and at druchii.net I came up with this list. The idea, as the thread name suggests, was that it would be a good take-all-comers kind of list. It seems pretty solid to me but I thought I'd post it here anyways to see if there's any critical flaws I'm overlooking.

My main question is whether it's worth it to have the crossbowmen around. I mostly put them in for fluff reasons, and I'm wondering whether they're worth it.

Cheers for any advice you're willing to give!


Heroes

Master: Great Weapon, Armor of Darkness: 109

Level 1 Sorceress: Tome of Furion: 115


Core

20 Spearmen: Shields, Full Command: 155

20 Spearmen: Shields, Full Command: 155

10 Crossbowmen: 100

5 Dark Riders: 85


Special

12 Black Guard: Standard, Musician: 177 (accompanied by the Master)


Rare

Reaper Bolt Thrower: 100


Total: 996

Paraelix
28-09-2009, 02:07
Why take 3 large combat units? Furthermore, why take a lvl 1 wizard?

Heroes

Master: Great Weapon, Armor of Darkness: 109

Level 2 Sorceress: Sacrificial Dagger: 160

Core

25 Spearmen: Shields, Full Command: 190

10 Crossbowmen: Shields 110

5 Dark Riders: repeater crossbows, muso 117

Special

11 Black Guard: Full Command 178 (accompanied by the Master)

Rare

Reaper Bolt Thrower: 100

Total- 964.

You now have 6x2 on the Black Guard with an opening for the character. You have a large unit of meat for your sorceress to nom on while casting spells more effectively. Your Dark riders can do more, which is important given this is a *versatile* list. And your crossbows have slightly more resistance to shooting and combat (a 4+sv in combat should never be laughed at).

Invader Nails
28-09-2009, 02:26
Why take 3 large combat units?

For ... fighting in ... combat?

Why not? (real question)



why take a lvl 1 wizard?

Because I didn't have the points for a level 2, and I didn't want to go without a wizard. Give that a dark elf magic user isn't limited by her level in terms of power dice she can use, the extra level seemed a bit less important.



And your crossbows have slightly more resistance to shooting and combat

I must confess I never really considered this. Makes sense though, thanks for the tip.

Paraelix
28-09-2009, 02:41
The majority of enemies you'll be facing in 1000 pts will only have 1 or 2 big units to fight in cc. The remainder of points will likely be skirmishers/fast cav/flyers/etc.

For example;
My 1000pts Slaanesh chaos run;
24 marauders
2x6 marauder cav
2x6 hounds
1x4 Chaos Ogres
1x Chariot
1x Combat character on steed of slaanesh (so he is fast cav as well).

Or the Chaos list I fought 2 days ago;
12x warriors
5x Marauder Cav
11x Nurgle Chosen
1x Nurgle Sorcerer
1x Chaos Warshrine

In both these example, there's only really 2 units in each that are going to be trying for frontal assaults, the rest will be going for rears/flanks or just supporting. Yes, it'll be diffictul to get around flanks if you form a thick line and give no space between units, but it'd be pretty hard to pull off, and if you get flanked, you won't be able to manouvre to stop them.

I see your point about the lvl 1 with tome of furion, but 2 spells, 4pd + sacrifices is *alot* more dangerous than 2 spells 3 pd.

Invader Nails
28-09-2009, 03:00
The majority of enemies you'll be facing in 1000 pts will only have 1 or 2 big units to fight in cc. The remainder of points will likely be skirmishers/fast cav/flyers/etc.


Good to know. To be honest, the main reason I went for 2 units of spears was for symmetry. I have a weird sort of Wargaming OCD I guess, makes me add in redundant units.

Thanks much for the feedback, Paraelix!

EndlessBug
28-09-2009, 10:32
3 PD really wont get you very far, however I don't think the sacrificial dagger is as useful as a darkstar cloak in this case. Replacing the 2nd warrior unit with some harpies, upgrading the Sorc and improving the other warrior unit and BG unit would probably get you further. Personally I'd field something more like:

Heroes

Master: Great Weapon, Armor of Darkness: 109

Level 2 Sorceress: Darkstar cloak: 160


Core

19 Spearmen: Shields, Full Command, Banner of Murder: 173

10 Crossbowmen: 100

5 Dark Riders: 85

5 Harpies: 55


Special

11 Black Guard: FC, Hag Graef: 213 (accompanied by the Master)


Rare

Reaper Bolt Thrower: 100

Total:995

Paraelix
28-09-2009, 12:51
Personally I think Sacr Dagger is gonna beat a Cloak every time for usefulness. The reason is this; Sac Dagger is used *after* casting roll has been made. Throw 2 dice at each spell and buff up the ones that either fail or barely pass and your opponent is gonna struggle to stop them as not many armies under 1000 are going to have more than 3 dispel.

EndlessBug
28-09-2009, 13:44
A level 4 I couldn't agree more. However a Lvl2, knowing 2 spells (+ power of darkness), most of the time you'll be taking chillwind + word of pain, bladewind or black horror. Only in the case of black horror would your dagger pay off imo. For the other setups 2 and 3 dice are perfectly viable. Sure your chillwind will be easier to dispel, but that means they're not trying to dispel the bladewind or word of pain. You could argue to throw 1 and 3 dice and add 1 to each. Though I think the requirement of throwing away 7 pts extra per spell is a little steep.

edit: I've started a poll topic in tactics forum on this, would be nice to know the general opinions.

Loq-Gor
28-09-2009, 20:25
generally I like your list but I agree with the others on a couple of points:

A level 2 sorceress would be better, I admit that the difference is less important with DE but level 2 gives you the extra spell and allows something other than furion to fill out the arcane item spot (I think either the cloak or the dagger will do fine for this)

My wife plays DE and has the same kind of OCD, superflous units thing going on. Fight that urge, the points are better spent elseware, like the banner of Hag Graef and...

Fast Cav with bows. I know not everybody agrees with this, some people just like to use fast cav to get flank and rear attack bonuses, I don't, I hate that. I want my fast cav to be as flexible as possible, and with out ranged weapons they are just march blocking for the first half of the game, harpies can do that.

I would go with Paraelix's list just because you still have the points to throw in Hag Graef.

Paraelix
28-09-2009, 23:05
:( I'm sick of Black Guard + Hag Graef in all Dark Elf lists. Why not try the fear causing or +D3 combat res on the charge?

I think its kinda a massive flaw in the army list that pretty much every list ends up the same.

Lords and sorceresses
Repeater X-bows
Corsairs with frenzy and assassin
Small unit of Cold One Knights
Large unit of Black Guard with hag graef and either assassin, lord or both.
2 Hydras or 1 Hydra and 2 Bolt Throwers.

One of the dudes at my local has 700 point invested in his lord + Black Guard.

pringles978
28-09-2009, 23:58
i think the black guard and banner are too good not to take. gives you a solid, dependable unit to hold your line with, you cant go far wrong with it.

Invader Nails
29-09-2009, 01:13
Right on, many thanks to you all for the commentary. Here is a revised version of the list, based on the eminently sensible suggestions above:

Heroes

Master: Great Weapon, Armor of Darkness: 109

Level 2 Sorceress: Darkstar Cloak: 160


Core

25 Spearmen: Full Command: 190

10 Repeater Crossbowmen: Shields: 110

5 Dark Riders: Musician, Repeater Crossbows: 117


Special

11 Black Guard: Full Command, Standard of Hag Graef: 213


Rare

Reaper Bolt Thrower: 100


Total: 999


As you can see, I've decided to sell my soul and go for the ASF Banner on the Black Guards after all. It's good enough already, and given that my general has a great weapon it becomes too tempting to pass up. Plus, I've spent many, many years getting utterly annihilated playing underdog armies so I think I have some good karma built up (that banner is paid for by the blood of untold hundreds of nameless Imperial Guardsmen ground into the mud under the heavy boots of Space Marines).


Also, I opted for the Darkstar Cloak for the Sorceress over the Sacrificial Dagger because killing my own guys just isn't my style, even in a Dark Elves army. And anyway, the fluff I've dreamed up for the army is that all the troopers are part of a sort of mercenary clan / quasi-mafia kind of organization, and I don't think the general would approve of some hired sorceress carving up his men in the middle of a battle.


Finally, I'm feeling a bit of indecision regarding the Tower Master in the Black Guard unit. The Master is already there for extra ass-kicking potential, and it occurs to me that the points saved by taking out the Tower Master could be spent on a Soulrender for the Master -- both to increase his killing power and to insure me against ethereal opponents. Thoughts on this? What does the champion really bring to the table?

pringles978
29-09-2009, 01:34
the champ can accept challenges from guys you dont want to fight with your lord. keep him, then feed him to chaos heroes....

i like the final list. i think the darkstar cloak is the mutch better buy over dagger, and as for the banner, theres no point not taking it and hampering yourself to satisfy the fluff police. good choice.

Invader Nails
29-09-2009, 01:56
Why, thank you. :)

Forgive my ignorance, but just how dangerous should I consider something like an average Chaos hero? Would it be a gamble for my Master to take him on or utter suicide?

Also, what do y'all think would be the best place to stick the Sorceress?

Paraelix
29-09-2009, 02:29
Avg Chaos hero level combat character is almost on par with most lord levels in other teams... Depends on their gear though. As standard you're looking at ws7 s5 a4 with t4 w2 and a 4+ sv before any other equip. And the chaos char *has* to issue a challenge. This is usually where a dark elf player pops out an assassin with rune of khaine and manbane... In your case though, you *might* risk it if he isn't great weapon armed (a 3+ sv is still pretty good), but probably taking the challenge on the tower master and just wailing on the unit with your char would be the better option. In any case, all your dudes are striking first anyway. And with any luck, you will have already zapped/shot the unit down a bit.

As for ethereal characters... You will pretty much never come across one. If banshees/wraiths charge you, they'll be pretty hard pressed to beat your static res. Spirit Hosts are the same. And very few people seem to take ethereal vampires cos, lets face it, most their other stuff is better.

And sorceress should probably stick with the bowman. Most spells are 18-24" range... So if you hang back in turn 1, or don't have the first turn, your enemy will likely move into range.

EDIT- And I totally understand about the dagger. Even when I ran skaven for a bit when they first came out, I was generally loathe to nuke my own guys... Unless I was already losing and it was then fun.

EndlessBug
29-09-2009, 07:54
You could drop 5 Warriors and the great weapon and take the soul render on your master and crimson death on the tower master. 3 ws5 S6 with re-rolls to hit is harsher than most hero level characters.

Invader Nails
30-09-2009, 01:03
You could drop 5 Warriors and the great weapon and take the soul render on your master and crimson death on the tower master. 3 ws5 S6 with re-rolls to hit is harsher than most hero level characters.

Hmmm.... a highly intriguing prospect...

Not only is that all kinds of nasty, but I'd have to buy/assemble/paint fewer warriors, and the point total of the army would be an even 1000 if I'm not mistaken, which my weird Warhammer OCD likes very much.

Good call, EndlessBug.

Maoriboy007
30-09-2009, 01:57
You don't have the Pendant in your army, so I think you may be forgiven for the ASF Banner ;)

VeriNasti
30-09-2009, 04:49
or a hydra