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Eos Rahh
28-09-2009, 03:49
So we all know followers of chaos are always in it for something. Power/wealth/imortality/ect/ect.

But is shooting for becoming a demon prince always the end goal? Is it a requirement to reach the top or be at the top.

Argastes
28-09-2009, 04:12
Obviously not. Abbadon is about as "at the top" as you can get, and he's not a daemon prince and doesn't want to be. Other top CSMs are also apparently uninterested in daemonhood.

Remember that daemonhood has it's drawbacks as well as it's perks. A CSM who becomes a daemon prince becomes less a creature of the material universe, and more a creature of the warp. So in a way, ascending to daemonhood represents a decision to become less connected to or involved with the material universe; this means it wouldn't necessarily be attractive to CSMs whose goals are focused mainly on the material universe (such as Abbadon with his dreams of conquest and revenge, or Ahriman with his obsessive thirst for knowledge). These guys aren't willing to accept that reduced involvement with reality and increased connection to the Warp.

CSMs are incredibly diverse in their desires. Their agendas include self-aggrandizement, pleasing their patron gods and advancing the interests of those gods, simple raiding/pillaging for 'sport' or material gain or just out of spite and psychosis, empire-building, vengeance on the Imperium, "restoration" of the Imperium to it's "proper" state (i.e. ruled by the strong warriors, i.e. them), amassing arcane knowledge, and all sorts of other things. Becoming a daemon prince is something that helps some, but certainly not all, CSMs attain their goals. So it's not something that all of them want.

Vesica
28-09-2009, 05:11
Argasres hit the nail on the head.

As for Abbadon, i imagine his mediocre crusades are the reason hes not a deamon prince yet, his plots are taking that long that even Tzeentch is getting bored of waiting for the end result.

grissom2006
28-09-2009, 07:35
Argasres hit the nail on the head.

As for Abbadon, i imagine his mediocre crusades are the reason hes not a deamon prince yet, his plots are taking that long that even Tzeentch is getting bored of waiting for the end result.

Hardly as to a immortal being time has no real meaning, also the Horus Hersey to current time line could of been a blink of an eye to them. After all time flows differently in the warp.

randian
28-09-2009, 16:18
But is shooting for becoming a demon prince always the end goal? Is it a requirement to reach the top or be at the top.
Only a small fraction of Chaos worshippers know that becoming a daemon prince is possible. Chaos Space Marines of course know, but they are a tiny, tiny minority (although a most favored one) of the forces of Chaos.

pookie
28-09-2009, 16:29
Obviously not. Abbadon is about as "at the top" as you can get, and he's not a daemon prince and doesn't want to be. Other top CSMs are also apparently uninterested in daemonhood.

Remember that daemonhood has it's drawbacks as well as it's perks. A CSM who becomes a daemon prince becomes less a creature of the material universe, and more a creature of the warp. So in a way, ascending to daemonhood represents a decision to become less connected to or involved with the material universe; this means it wouldn't necessarily be attractive to CSMs whose goals are focused mainly on the material universe (such as Abbadon with his dreams of conquest and revenge, or Ahriman with his obsessive thirst for knowledge). These guys aren't willing to accept that reduced involvement with reality and increased connection to the Warp.

CSMs are incredibly diverse in their desires. Their agendas include self-aggrandizement, pleasing their patron gods and advancing the interests of those gods, simple raiding/pillaging for 'sport' or material gain or just out of spite and psychosis, empire-building, vengeance on the Imperium, "restoration" of the Imperium to it's "proper" state (i.e. ruled by the strong warriors, i.e. them), amassing arcane knowledge, and all sorts of other things. Becoming a daemon prince is something that helps some, but certainly not all, CSMs attain their goals. So it's not something that all of them want.

Using Abbadon as an example, whats your take on how he can refuse Demonhood? surly Khorne/Nurgle etc dont give the champions a choice? or is it that because his loyal to all 4 Gods, they cant elivate him, without all 4 agreeing?

and if they did raise him, who would be his Patron God then? is there known unaligned Daemon Princes out there?

Argastes
28-09-2009, 17:24
As for how he refuses daemonhood, of course I don't know, but the fluff tells us that it has been "offered" and rejected several times. Maybe the Chaos gods don't normally give their champions a choice, but since Abaddon is such a heavy hitter for them, he gets special treatment. Maybe it's just a matter of willpower. Maybe the four gods get together and are like "Okay we're going to turn this dude into a daemon prince" but then when Abbadon feels the transformation coming on, he's all like "No guys, I'm not doing this yet, stop asking" and they're like "Okay man, whenever you're ready" and they back off. Who knows. Again, remember, Abaddon isn't a slave to the Chaos gods; he has a deal with them, a contract of sorts, even if he is the "junior partner" in that contract. He does some work for them, and in exchange they grant him power and the allegiance of their daemons and more devoted followers and so forth. So they can't just do whatever they want to him, he's not just their pawn or puppet. He's more like a business partner.

There are definitely Undivided DPs though. Not all DPs are devoted to a given god. If Abbadon was elevated to DP status, he wouldn't have a single patron god, but would presumably enjoy the patronage of all four (just as he currently enjoys the blessings of all four).

Szafraniec
28-09-2009, 17:47
In the infinite war between the Gods in the Warp, the material realm is only important to them on a random basis. Maybe hes said no, maybe hes never been given the chance, who knows? For each CSM, the 'choice' can go a lot of ways. We think of DPs as the monsterous leaders of the CSM, but dont forget they are mere troops in the armies of the Gods. There could be a DP of Khorne who is incredibly powerful, but hes so essential in Khorne's warp warfare that he'll never see the material realm, and he may very well be a slave. Becoming a Prince can be a fantastic reward or an awful curse.

spetswalshe
28-09-2009, 18:38
An undivided Daemon Prince would presumably require the consent (or at least non-reluctance) of all four Big Guys, and hence would be pretty rare. It's much easier to keep one God sweet than four of them (particularly when they have conflicting ideas).

Can anyone give fluff confirmation that Abbadon has been offered a choice? I don't know his background very well. One could imagine him being given a choice along the lines of 'Become a daemon prince and rule over a daemon-world, or remain mortal and continue being able to sally forth from the Eye of Terror whenever you like'.

Plenty of the biggest names in Chaos worship die unascended; equally, plenty go rewarded for a relatively minor act of devotion. The Chaos Gods don't have the same kind of reward/punishment criteria as a sane human being might; while you can be reasonably certain a Chaos Space Marine who slaughters thousands might be more favoured than a kid who shanks his neighbour, there's still the chance that the CSM will be reduced to a quivering bag of flesh while shanky-kid gets a shiny new set of horns.

Also, being a Daemon Prince might give you some individuality, but you've still got a great big chunk of Divine Darkness inside you. A DP might consider himself to have more freedom of thought than a Bloodletter, but the Bloodletter has always been a puppet of Khorne; the Daemon Prince will probably still remember the time before he ascended when his mind was absolutely his own.


Hardly as to a immortal being time has no real meaning, also the Horus Hersey to current time line could of been a blink of an eye to them. After all time flows differently in the warp.

I don't think that comment was meant to be taken seriously.

Argastes
28-09-2009, 18:39
Maybe hes said no, maybe hes never been given the chance, who knows?

If you're talking about Abbadon, we do know: The CSM background tells us that the gods have offered to elevate him to daemon prince status numerous times, and he has refused each time.

EDIT: IIRC, it's stated explicitly on Abaddon's page in the special character section of the previous CSM codex.

Lothlanathorian
28-09-2009, 18:39
Perhaps demons have offered it to him in exchange for this or that. Maybe a demon says, 'Hey, you kicked some butt, wanna be a cool demon like me?' and he is all like, 'Naw, dude.'

Remember, most of the time, you deal with demons and not the Big 4 directly. And demons aren't just mindless, animalistic killing machines.

randian
28-09-2009, 20:01
Are there known unaligned Daemon Princes out there?
Lorgar and Perturabo.

ashc
28-09-2009, 20:11
i do not agree that those not dedicated to a single god must receive consent from each of the 4 to be granted daemonhood; I always feel that there are far more minor beings in the warp that would be willing to grant daemonhood, and the price no doubt is high (you are endebted to the daemon).

I always feel that Chaos should have more of the 'faceless and nameless horror' played up in the background than always using the 'big 4' all the time, as they often just become too stereotyped and overused, losing the 'chaotic' bit of chaos.

randian
28-09-2009, 20:30
Plenty of the biggest names in Chaos worship die unascended; equally, plenty go rewarded for a relatively minor act of devotion.
While that's true as a general rule, the Chaos Gods aren't so chaotic they'd make you a Daemon Prince for shanking your neighbor. There is still some proportionality involved. The stakes are also bigger now, early DPs like DoomBreed wouldn't make the cut were they on the path to daemonhood today. They'd have to do more to get noticed.

Very notable Chaos followers like Erebus and Kor Phaeron are not yet DPs, though it's unknown whether they've been offered that boon.

Lucius and Typhus, while still mortal, have such great powers it's not clear they're still human.


Also, being a Daemon Prince might give you some individuality, but you've still got a great big chunk of Divine Darkness inside you. A DP might consider himself to have more freedom of thought than a Bloodletter, but the Bloodletter has always been a puppet of Khorne; the Daemon Prince will probably still remember the time before he ascended when his mind was absolutely his own.
I'm sure the transformation into a Daemon Prince involves some kind of anti-rebellion conditioning. It also involves massive psychological conditioning, inasmuch as gazing upon the mysteries of the warp is no longer the terrifying and mind-destroying act it was when mortal.

The Daemon Primarchs are true slaves to Chaos, even more than their Legions are. One wonders if they ever regret that.

Vesica
28-09-2009, 20:33
Perhaps demons have offered it to him in exchange for this or that. Maybe a demon says, 'Hey, you kicked some butt, wanna be a cool demon like me?' and he is all like, 'Naw, dude.'

Remember, most of the time, you deal with demons and not the Big 4 directly. And demons aren't just mindless, animalistic killing machines.

IDK i cant see the big 4 sending some daemon to talk to their chosen one, and if they did it would probably be a pretty high ranking greater daemon.

Also aren't the daemons just aspects of the god they follow, kinda like a hive mind but with more personality?

pookie
29-09-2009, 09:43
If you're talking about Abbadon, we do know: The CSM background tells us that the gods have offered to elevate him to daemon prince status numerous times, and he has refused each time.

EDIT: IIRC, it's stated explicitly on Abaddon's page in the special character section of the previous CSM codex.


cool, never had access to that particular Dex, seems that some 'beings' then may have enough personal power to refuse, and not be turned into a Spawn.


Lorgar and Perturabo.

Doh! of course, thanks, i tend to forget the other Daemon Primarchs that aint alligned to the big 4!.

Szafraniec
29-09-2009, 15:05
While obviously theyve taken Abaddons refusal politely, so help him the day hes not given a choice.

In regards to another post above, I can believe that one may become a DP for simply shanking a neighbor. While on the one hand, that neighbor may have unearthed some great artifact to defeat daemons in the future, I dont think we can apply 'logic' to the Chaos Gods. Maybe Khorne just thought it was really really funny and pumps him up. Maybe its done in order to humble another DP who worked for aeons to achieve his status and was getting uppity.

Iracundus
29-09-2009, 16:12
Abaddon has a unique (at least since Horus) Mark, combining the effects of all 4 major gods. He has also been described, like Horus, as avoiding becoming the pawn of any particular god.

Abaddon's "refusal" of ascension may not be as simple and as direct as a "No thank you" expressed to the local daemonic representative. It may also be from the acts he performs, favoring no god enough to the point where they may make him a daemon prince, making sure they all have equal and not overwhelming claim on him. Their godly rivalries would ensure they don't allow their divine rival to make off with Abaddon.

That may be the real tricky bit as the relative merit of each act may be hard to assess. "I've massacred an army of Imperials. That's my Khorne act for today. Next on the checklist is a hedonistic feast in Slaanesh's name to balance that out..."

Lothlanathorian
29-09-2009, 17:54
IDK i cant see the big 4 sending some daemon to talk to their chosen one, and if they did it would probably be a pretty high ranking greater daemon.

Also aren't the daemons just aspects of the god they follow, kinda like a hive mind but with more personality?

In the Fluff, daemons seem to be much more independent of their god than you would think. In the Eisenhorn books, Cherubael seems to be a very powerful daemon, but no mention is ever made of his alignment. In one of the Codices, there is a little story where Abaddon and a sorceror summon a daemon so they can make it answer questions for them. I like this view more, where daemons are slightly less stuck in kill mode at all times. Heck, there is even a daemon SC in the Daemon Codex that tried to overthrow Khorne. They have individuality and ability to things autonomously and I prefer that view of them.

Vesica
30-09-2009, 02:06
In the Fluff, daemons seem to be much more independent of their god than you would think. In the Eisenhorn books, Cherubael seems to be a very powerful daemon, but no mention is ever made of his alignment. In one of the Codices, there is a little story where Abaddon and a sorceror summon a daemon so they can make it answer questions for them. I like this view more, where daemons are slightly less stuck in kill mode at all times. Heck, there is even a daemon SC in the Daemon Codex that tried to overthrow Khorne. They have individuality and ability to things autonomously and I prefer that view of them.

Yea, i view them as aspects of the main gods personality and as such whilst still basically that god they have their own 'minds'.

Vesica
30-09-2009, 02:11
Hardly as to a immortal being time has no real meaning, also the Horus Hersey to current time line could of been a blink of an eye to them. After all time flows differently in the warp.

That was my point, hes taking that long that a being with no concept of time is getting bored of waiting :D

LordLucan
30-09-2009, 12:49
So we all know followers of chaos are always in it for something. Power/wealth/imortality/ect/ect.

But is shooting for becoming a demon prince always the end goal? Is it a requirement to reach the top or be at the top.

Nope. Take the Purge as an example. They simply wish to kill every living thing in the universe, because that is how they have interpretted the whims of their patron, Nurgle. They're insane.

The motives of the Chaos Space Marines are as numerous as everyone's individual personalities. Some what power, some want to simply destroy everything. Some want to create a 'better' society. Some likely want to be constantly aroused, via any means neccessary. Tons of different motivations. Howeve,r becoming a daemon prince allows many of these whims to be fulfilled. Thus, it is a rather common goal for many CSM, simply as a means to an end.

Sceleris82
30-09-2009, 13:11
There is a story in a old Chaos codex, about a khorne beserker who takes part in destroying a imperial fortress, suddenly a being comes to the warp and approaches him, and basicly asks if it can posses him, the beserker accepts but only because its a bloodthirster and he would have refused anything less.

What this tells me is, that ascending to demon is a deal, that the person accepts. Though ofcourse if your willpower is to bad they can force it upon you.