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Dungeon_Lawyer
28-09-2009, 06:06
Read the poll carefully before answering-Some have found the wording difficult to understand.

A lot of folks have been posting their batreps from the Ard'boyz qualifying rounds, to be honest, the lists just make me sigh-The amount of broken cheesiness is just insane. Everchosen and Kolek Suneater, Lord Kroak and 3+ EOTG'S...

Now -to each their own, if people want to play those lists more power to them. But I was just wondering...Am I alone in thinking that Ard'Boyz might encourage everything that is wrong with this hobby?

Lexy
28-09-2009, 08:29
First off: when you ask a question, it should have the same tendency in all places.
So don't ask a question in the title and in your post and ask the same question the other way around in the poll.

I think the 'Ard boyz is very good for the hobby.
A mix of bring all sorts of cheeses for one tournament helps the other tournaments to have less cheese in them.

Think of this: if you should always be silent, there will be a point, where you want to scream.
The scream in this case is organized where everybody knows, you are going to scream.

Lijacote
28-09-2009, 08:32
Options are never bad. Never. Well, almost never.

'Ard Boyz is good because it gives you the chance to take that baddest mother of lists and not have people complain too harshly about it, because it's expected. An alternate set of etiquette is great for the hobby. Nobody forces you to participate in 'Ard Boyz, nobody forces you to take the mother of lists.

Does your mother of lists compare to theirs!? FIND OUT in 'ARD BOYZ

polymphus
28-09-2009, 08:32
First off: when you ask a question, it should have the same tendency in all places.

The same what now? Tendency towards what? I'm sorry to do this, but if you're going to be pedantic you'd better make damn sure your post makes sense first :eyebrows:. @the OP, could you link us to some of these batreps? I'm rather interested to see what's being used.

Poly

Lijacote
28-09-2009, 08:34
The same what now? Tendency towards what? I'm sorry to do this, but if you're going to be pedantic you'd better make damn sure your post makes sense first :eyebrows:. @the OP, could you link us to some of these batreps? I'm rather interested to see what's being used.

Poly

Consider the two questions

"Is it bad? for the hobby?"
"Ard'Boyz is it in the best interests of the hobby?"

If you answer "yes" to both questions, what does that make you? The thread title is misleading when it comes to the actual poll, the results will inevitably be silly. It pays to pay attention.

Whitehorn
28-09-2009, 08:42
Lexy nailed this coffin. Stupid way to ask the question... you're going to get stupid results!

I don't see how any tournament affects the hobby in a bad way. If you don't enjoy the likes of the lists involved, don't enter. I don't enter many tournaments and yet spend every waking moment planning, painting and preparing for my next game and campaign. Tournaments really don't affect my hobby other than using up valuable shelf space with trophies that could be used for my models :)

polymphus
28-09-2009, 08:43
That was directed at the person above; your post ninja'd mine.

If you answer "yes" to both questions, what does that make you? The thread title is misleading when it comes to the actual poll, the results will inevitably be silly. It pays to pay attention.
It pays to have your posts make a lick of sense. The thread title isn't 'misleading', it's biased. The other poster said "[a poll] should have the same tendency in all places". What he meant was "A poll should be unbiased."

Language has semanticity and productivity; that means words have specific meanings and the way these words are used in turn adds to their meaning. I'm not being pedantic here; the words you used give the sentence a completely different meaning. It's like asking for a bar of chocolate by saying "Could you please set that chocolate alight?"

Regarding the original post, I've no opinion of 'ard boys until I see what sort of lists were taken. I wanted to point out the hypocrisy of calling another's word choice innapropriate while you yourself are using incorrect terminology. Just trying to be helpful. :)

Poly

EDIT: aaaand ninja'd again. That was to Lijacote.

Lijacote
28-09-2009, 08:44
Well, it is biased among other things but look at the thread title and the question. People will enter the thread thinking they're going to answer the question "is it bad for the hobby" when the actual poll's question is the opposite in meaning, asking if it's good.

My post makes perfect sense if you've read them both. Also, ninjaing doesn't matter.

jigplums
28-09-2009, 11:50
A lot of folks have been posting their batreps from the Ard'boyz qualifying rounds, to be honest, the lists just make me sigh-The amount of broken cheesiness is just insane.

to me this statement just doesn't make sense. the amount of broken chessiness. If there is that much of it, then can it really ever be considered cheesiness? is it broken if there are lots of other lists that compete with it?

Cheesiness i often feel is just an excuse, that i think alot of players use to justify why they dont win. if you never really try your best is it ever really your fault?

Ard,boyz is a tournament, tournaments are for people who want to play competatively. If you dont want to play competatively why even read the posts with these lists in them?

EvC
28-09-2009, 14:02
I don't think it's really bad for the hobby per se- keep filth in its place. However, some of it does seem like it could do with being made a bit more friendly- last year I saw someone boast on these boards that he "spiked" his opponents' Steam Tanks, and the way the tournament is written it pretty much encourages players to use any dirty underhanded tricks they want, whatever they can get away with really. Plus the use of unpainted armies. Not good in that way at all.

Commodus Leitdorf
28-09-2009, 14:28
'Ard Boys is a place where everybody comes to the tourney on the same page. Meaning of course your not going to be mistaken and bring a knife to a Tactical Nuclear Missile fight. Its there for the sole purpose of beating the snot out of each other with the worst stuff imaginable.

Is that bad? No. It's a forum for people to play around and, frankly, Its fun. Its fun to just try an beat the tar out of each other without worrying about being cheesey.

That being said, I still VERY much enjoy my good old fluffy games....but sometimes I just want to see 3 Steam Tanks break some faces...is that wrong?

Loki73
28-09-2009, 14:46
voted yes. Its not fun at all to play some armies 3 steam tanks. Or a slann with 3 EOTG.

It comes off to me ass..." I will make unbalanced azzhat lists to beat down people that enjoy balanced list, painting and modeling!"

Not everyone has the resources and time to make these lists. But they may have the time to play 3 games in one day. Which is the only reason I do any tournies at all.

If Ard boys died tommorow I wouldn't miss it one bit.

loveless
28-09-2009, 14:47
Ah crap...I assumed that the thread title and the poll question would be worded the same way...

No, it's not bad for the hobby. Everyone who goes to 'Ard Boyz knows what they're in for - effectively, a cheese fest. It's one thing to bring a 'Ard Boyz list to a normal tournament (or a friendly game), but when the tournament rules pretty much spell it out that you should bring the most powerful list you can - well, I can't say that it's hurting anyone.

scarletsquig
28-09-2009, 14:52
Ah crap...I assumed that the thread title and the poll question would be worded the same way...
Yeah, I had to do a double-take on that one too, most misleading poll ever!

Ard' Boyz tournies are a great idea.

They do not replace regular tournaments, they simply provide a different option for people with a different approach to the game.

Tourney players consist of 2 types of people:

Type #1 - Powergamer, plays to win and has a lot of fun doing it

Type #2 - Turns up to tourneys to enjoy playing with a different variety of people, have fun, check out all the nicely painted armies and grab a drink after.. isn't all that bothered about winning or the competitive side of things.

When Type #1 and Type #2 clash, the result is a less enjoyable time for both. Type #1 doesn't get a decent challenge during the game, and Type #2 gets tired of being steamrollered by someone who takes the competitive side more seriously.

Having seperate tournaments for the 2 different types is great.


Personally, I'm type #2 when it comes to warhammer. The rules system is in too much of a mess for me to take it seriously, it's great as a casual game in my eyes.

I am however a powergamer in an online game I play, breaking and exploiting mechanics in ways they weren't intended to be used, and find it fun there, so I can understand why type #1's want to play competitively.

Nothing wrong with either player, but seperating the 2 is the best way forward for both of them. and that's why Ard' Boyz are excellent. :)

Dungeon_Lawyer
28-09-2009, 17:18
:How hard is it to Read the ******* poll? I mean really:wtf:

I just want to be clear-Im not against the concept of Ard'Boyz at all, if you want to go at it in that style then by all means go at it. Ive played in an Ard'boyz format myself in 40k. And I answered "yes"- that Ard'boyz is in the best interests of the hobby

My chief concern is the potential for a "trickle down" effect. Ard'Boyz gets a great deal of word of mouth, a lot of people hear about it etc. And sometimes I think that new gamers or people thinking about taking up the hobby look at Ard'Boyz and think that it is representative of the hobby as a whole.- I must admit, after playing in an Ard'Boyz setting I sometimes still could not shake the Ard'boyz mentality in subsequent friendly matches.-It was almost as if Ard'Boyz desensitizes you or something .

This is the main Thrust of where I was coming from when I posted this thread, so I was curious as to others take on Ard'Boyz.

Lets please keep our posts on topic and not get bogged down in semantics too much.....thanks:).

Batreps from Ard'boyz are being posted in the batrep section, so if anyone is curious as to the details of Ard'Boyz lists that would be the place to go.

wena
28-09-2009, 17:21
'Ard Boyz is a blast! I spent money I swore I never would to get additional models to compete. (Good for Games Workshop which is good for me in the long run) Chances are I won't get past the semi-finals but for the last three months I have had 2 -3 games a week practicing for it against crazy armies and it has been a great motivator to play new types of lists.

I also get to play some special characters I have the models for but would never use otherwise and nobody complains!!! In fact they beg me to play Tyrion against them (ya right - he just doesn't cut it in 'Ard Boyz:( )

Once 'Ard Boyz is over the next fun will be playing against the new Skaven armies - I feel the change up is exactly what the hobby needs --- just don't take it too seriously and fun will be had by all

Gazak Blacktoof
28-09-2009, 17:32
They do not replace regular tournaments, they simply provide a different option for people with a different approach to the game.

I agree, it isn't my cup of tea but then I wont be attending.

If they get good attendance then clearly some people clearly think they're good for their hobby.

EDIT: I voted 'Yes'.

Dungeon_Lawyer
28-09-2009, 17:34
Ard'Boyz is looking like a tournament that is going to be dominated by Deamons and Dark Elves...Is that really good for our hobby? This ultra-famous, uber-competiative tournament where prob +65% (if the current composition of the armies that are qualifying for arb'boyz holds up, which I think it will - see the thread) come from 2 armies? Yikes!

Zeuy
28-09-2009, 18:02
Dungeon_Lawyer: If you mean the thread "Ard Boyz Results nation wide", there are currently 5 more LM armies than DE, 6 more LM than VC or HE, and 2 more demons armies than lizardmen. Not to be nit-picky, but so far it looks like LM & DoC are the top dogs, but it also looks like there is a fair amount of variety with DE, VC, and HE all trailing closely behind.

theunwantedbeing
28-09-2009, 18:08
I think the idea behind having a set place to use your most powerful "cheesy" list is fine.
So in that respect, the 'Ard Boyz tournament is a good thing.

The problem occurs when that style of play filters down to the regular gaming groups and people seem to assume that is the normal way of playing. Then we have problems.


I dont know if the tournament does this but it could do with making it nice and clear that they are doing something different to what is expected from a regular normal game of warhammer intended for fun.

eg.
'Ard boyz = winning first, fun second
Normal game = Fun first, winning second

pointyteeth
28-09-2009, 18:29
Oops, I might have voted backwards. I think 'Ard Boys is good for the hobby. It gives players a chance to take the hardest possible list they want and not feel guilty about it, and it caters to the people who think Best General is the highest honour in the sport. I play in two types of tournaments, one is somewhat of an 'ardboys format and the other is a more soft-score oriented tournament. I most certainly bring the cheese to the former, but when I go to the latter I have gotten the cheese out of my system and am just looking for a good time (and aiming for Best Painted, Best Sportsman, or the coveted Best Overall :D).

ZeroTwentythree
28-09-2009, 19:07
The 'Ard Boyz tournaments allow people to play larger games using legal lists from the army books. Those lists allow you to make exactly the types of armies that were intended by the company who wrote the game. Otherwise those options/armies wouldn't have been in the army books.

PeG
28-09-2009, 20:41
Ard Boyz is a different aspect of the game and I dont have a problem with it and I dont think that it should have negative effects on more friendly games. I have a bigger problem with GW stores encouraging special characters and cheese already in tournies for 10 year olds because these kids will actually think that this is what the game is about.

selone
28-09-2009, 20:46
I think the idea behind having a set place to use your most powerful "cheesy" list is fine.
So in that respect, the 'Ard Boyz tournament is a good thing.

The problem occurs when that style of play filters down to the regular gaming groups and people seem to assume that is the normal way of playing. Then we have problems.


I dont know if the tournament does this but it could do with making it nice and clear that they are doing something different to what is expected from a regular normal game of warhammer intended for fun.

eg.
'Ard boyz = winning first, fun second
Normal game = Fun first, winning second

Winning is fun ;)

ZeroTwentythree
28-09-2009, 21:01
I have a bigger problem with GW stores encouraging special characters and cheese already in tournies for 10 year olds because these kids will actually think that this is what the game is about.


Why is that not "what the game is about?"

Are those rules/options in the game & army books? Who put them there? It seems obvious to me that those sorts of things are 100% "what the game is about" as much as anything else in the books. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. Or they would be house rules, etc. No body forces GW to put them in the books, that was seemingly their choice as to what's "fun."

Just because it's your personal preference to not use them doesn't mean it's Games Workshop's preference.

Lord Inquisitor
28-09-2009, 21:39
I think Ard Boyz is perfectly entertaining as long as you go in with the mentality of a no-holds-barred contest. I played a good friend of mine in a "warm up" game and it was a great laugh. I brought the worst daemon cheddar I could lay my hands on and he threw down Archaon in one of the most scary deathstars I've seen for a while. Next week we might play a game with no specials or excessive cheese in the spirit of fair play. Both approaches work, we both enjoy them probably equally - as long as we know which sort of game to expect, all is good.

Maoriboy007
28-09-2009, 22:33
It also sounds like a good way to identify the cheese in the game, and illuminate the problem areas.

silashand
29-09-2009, 02:40
I think it's very good. Just because you don't like them for your own reasons doesn't mean others feel the same or that your way of enjoying the hobby is the only valid one. If they have fun then more power to them. If you enjoy your way, then that's good too. The "hobby" is big enough for both groups.

Alcibiades
29-09-2009, 06:01
Ard Boyz is a great release valve for both those players who care only about the game in terms of optimizable mechanics, as well as those players who just want an excuse to break out those special characters that they can't in good conscience use in friendly matches.
If nothing else, it's fantastic to see the variation in cheese that exists: every player who is at an Ard Boyz event theoretically should be using the most effective list they can possibly create from their codex: looking at what variations exist gives good insight into better options for less competitive lists as well.

Lord Dan
29-09-2009, 06:21
I'll be honest, my friends and I had fun building absurd lists to try and table each other. Now that it's all finished (for some of us, anyway) it will be nice to focus back on mordheim, friendly games, and campaign play.

I think it's become a fun yearly event.

Kalec
30-09-2009, 02:47
Read the poll carefully before answering-Some have found the wording difficult to understand.

A lot of folks have been posting their batreps from the Ard'boyz qualifying rounds, to be honest, the lists just make me sigh-The amount of broken cheesiness is just insane. Everchosen and Kolek Suneater, Lord Kroak and 3+ EOTG'S...

Now -to each their own, if people want to play those lists more power to them. But I was just wondering...Am I alone in thinking that Ard'Boyz might encourage everything that is wrong with this hobby?


You have made it quite clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

macdaddy
30-09-2009, 03:27
Geez... What did the OP do? I don't think I will be starting any threads here as someone might try to slit my throat in my sleep because I didn't chanel Shakespeare.

Back on topic... I don't really play many uber cheese games, but when I do, it is a fun time. 'Ard Boys tournys are fine, just don't download those lists and bring them to GW for a pick-up game.

Dungeon_Lawyer
30-09-2009, 05:58
Geez... What did the OP do? I don't think I will be starting any threads here as someone might try to slit my throat in my sleep because I didn't chanel Shakespeare.

Back on topic... I don't really play many uber cheese games, but when I do, it is a fun time. 'Ard Boys tournys are fine, just don't download those lists and bring them to GW for a pick-up game.
:)
THANK YOU! Jeesh, you try and raise a somewhat interesting question on a discussion forum devoted to the hobby and a bunch a trolls swarm you because their pissed that there reading comprehension sucks and they voted wrong in the poll...

I guess I should stick the the banal "Im starting a new army what should it be?" tripe that passes for forum discussion these days...


You have made it quite clear you have no idea what you are talking about.
How very positive, quite cogent, thanks for your imput.
Funny, but I dont remember talking at all.....Typing maybe:rolleyes:-

(Jumps on the semantics ******* bandwagon which appears to be in full-force on this thread).

Alcibiades
30-09-2009, 07:22
Ard'Boyz is looking like a tournament that is going to be dominated by Deamons and Dark Elves...Is that really good for our hobby? This ultra-famous, uber-competiative tournament where prob +65% (if the current composition of the armies that are qualifying for arb'boyz holds up, which I think it will - see the thread) come from 2 armies? Yikes!

I only think this sort of objection holds up if we imagine that the results of Ard Boyz end up influencing the rest of the hobby. Sure, the best possible optimized lists end up coming from the most recent four or five books, but optimization isn't the be all and end all of the hobby. However, creating a 'hard list' is just as important as creating a 'fluffy list' or even just painting models well.
Is the Golden Daemon award an anchor on the hobby because it promotes painting and conversion above gameplay?

Lijacote
30-09-2009, 10:03
It doesn't take Shakespeare to have a poll consistent with the thread title's question.

Finnigan2004
30-09-2009, 13:53
Now -to each their own, if people want to play those lists more power to them. But I was just wondering...Am I alone in thinking that Ard'Boyz might encourage everything that is wrong with this hobby?

I think that this statement is the problem with the point that you are trying to make. Within it you manage to both show that you understand that there is no "correct" way to enjoy the game, and at the same time imply that the way that these people enjoy the game is somehow wrong. You are trying to push poll here-- that is to say get a poll to agree with the sentiments that you hold. Now, I am sure that you did not intend to make the mistake of having the question disagree with the title, but from the tenor of the comments some people appear to think that you did it intentionally and/or that it skews the results.

It appears that the sentiment is that most who went enjoyed it, and that's a good thing. In fact, I went, I enjoyed it, and I'm going to round 2 if it's not a ridiculous distance from where I live. Generally speaking, any event that gets people to play the game and enjoy it is a good thing. Likewise, in my opinion, having events that are all out as well as events that are comped to various degrees are a good thing because they allow everyone to play the game as they enjoy it. Personally, I enjoy both. Acknowledging that there is no right or wrong way to enjoy the hobby is a good thing because such an attitude allows more people to enjoy it.

Lordsaradain
01-10-2009, 13:40
I dont know if Ard'Boyz is in the best interests of the hobby, but I don't think it is that bad either. 'Ard boyz tournys are definetly better than no tournys at all.