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Hrw-Amen
29-09-2009, 18:37
Sorry if this has already been asked. I hve read through most of the back posts about Tales of Heresy and although the story is discussed it did not appear to address this particular questin. So:

I was a little confused by this story.

I am not entirely clear what the church is supposed to be? Is it a church in the way of what a church is today, (Or at least whatever thousands of years of history turn our current religions into.) which is destroyed by the Emperor.

Or alternatively, seeing as the Lightning bolt is one of the early symbols of the Emperor worn by the original SM on the front of the Mk1 Thunder armour, is it a church which is dedicated to the rising cult of the Emperor, which he then destroys because he is not into all that religion stuff and does not like it?

If it is the latter then the description of the soldiers (I assume marines?) appears to fit with the design of the Mk1 armour, but this would mean the story took place ages ago before the crusade started or at least near to its outset, as by the time of the hersey it is apparent that SMs are wearing at least Mk5 and sometimes quoted as haing Mk6 armour. Or alternatively are there a special group of marines who when on Earth wear the old Mk1 armour out of some sentimental value or to take part in some kind of event/parade or whatever much like at trooping of the colour. Does this imply that the whole thing is some kind of ceremony that is gone through every so often when the Emperor used to symbolically cast off the last remnants of the old waysin order to reknew his authority or something?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree altogether and it is means something totally different?

Col. Tartleton
29-09-2009, 19:00
I believe its the last "church" on Terra. The last bastion of religion standing in the way of the Emperor's "world take over bid".

Presuming its the story I think you're talking about.

Regardless the story is much fail, because the Emperor cannot be written properly by any author that BL can afford (no offense to them, but the sort of God-Man he's supposed to be would be hard for Tolkien or Tennison.) The Emperor should never get dialogue...

Point being that the author lacks the ability to sway the mind the way the Emperor is supposed to. Big E is supposed to be explaining to a priest the frailty of religion. The author makes the Emperor sound like a retarded atheist who couldn't sway an agnostic let alone a member of the clergy...

Mannimarco
29-09-2009, 20:40
because i know im right isnt exactly a well thought out and balanced argument that leads to a deep meaning debate on religion, for somone as powerful as the emperor it didnt really come across here

Imperialis_Dominatus
30-09-2009, 01:23
I was actually okay with the 'because I know I'm right' bit because he should by now, being 38,000 years old at that point. But what I didn't like was the arguments he used. He swung... and a-missed with 'lol you haz no evidences' and 'bad people use religion for bad so religion is bad,' possibly the two lamest, least consequential, and most easy to counter arguments against religion (and Uriel did not counter them well, he was an obvious strawman).

However, I shouldn't be expecting master philosophy from BL, so whatever.

grissom2006
30-09-2009, 01:52
Yep it's a everyday church that's to worship god or gods as no reference is made as to the deity so no christ on a crucifex is mentioned. Yes i noted the almost pointed to hint at the MK1 armour as well. Adding the Emperor into the story would of been nice touch if the right person had written it. Not many people in my opinion can right about truely powerful and inspiring characters well but their are a few. This sorely shows in how poorly the talk about how faith and the rest comes across in the story.

Inquisitor Engel
30-09-2009, 02:48
Has anyone ever given thought to the idea that the Emperor purposefully didn't use his powers of persuasion/gift of gab on the priest? That he he actually wanted the discussion?

Argastes
30-09-2009, 02:52
Are you saying he wouldn't have had a discussion if he had used his powers of persuasion? Isn't that exactly what persuading people entails? How can you use the "gift of gab" on someone without engaging them in discussion?

Inquisitor Engel
30-09-2009, 03:22
Are you saying he wouldn't have had a discussion if he had used his powers of persuasion? Isn't that exactly what persuading people entails? How can you use the "gift of gab" on someone without engaging them in discussion?

The Emperor is MORE than capable of making a mere mortal see things his way, he could have walked in the Church and said, simply, "You are WRONG, leave this building - SEE the truth!" *handwavium*

But he didn't.

He went in, unassuming and had a long, drawn out conversation with an individual. He purposefully kept the conversation going, with leads in and out of the conversation to keep the Priest parrying his attacks on his faith, yet letting the priest make the occasional headway before pushing back.

The Emperor want the conversation to be honest and level. He got what he wanted.

Lexington
30-09-2009, 03:55
The Emperor is MORE than capable of making a mere mortal see things his way, he could have walked in the Church and said, simply, "You are WRONG, leave this building - SEE the truth!" *handwavium*
Not sure about that. The Emperor's presence may leave your average man (or Primarch, even) in awe, but I don't see him as magical. A sufficiently strong-willed human, it seems to me, would be able to look the Emperor straight in the eye and tell him that he's wrong.

Also, it's annoying that the best BL seems to be able to put out is the kind of story that needs the better sort of Warseer member to rehabilitate it. :p

Argastes
30-09-2009, 03:57
Ahh, okay. When you said "powers of persuasion", I thought you meant just using good arguments to make his case, I didn't realize you meant 'Jedi mind tricks' or what-have-you.

Anyhow, I haven't read the book... but it seems to me that people's problem with it isn't that the Emperor has an honest discussion rather than using his mind powers, but that he does such a ****-poor job of having an honest discussion.

Tonberry
30-09-2009, 06:00
I thought the 'because I know I'm right' bit was there to show that the Emperor isn't the perfect dude the Imperial cult makes him out to be, he was another tyrant who succeded where others had previously failed.

Inquisitor Engel
30-09-2009, 06:02
Ahh, okay. When you said "powers of persuasion", I thought you meant just using good arguments to make his case, I didn't realize you meant 'Jedi mind tricks' or what-have-you.

Yeah, I literally meant his psychic might. If the Emperor wants you to believe something, you will believe it. If a simple Brother-Librarian can mind-wipe a Space Marine (albeit unsuccessfully, but then again, Zahariel was also a librarian) then you can damn well believe the Emperor can bend belief and knowledge of anyone he damn well pleases.


Anyhow, I haven't read the book... but it seems to me that people's problem with it isn't that the Emperor has an honest discussion rather than using his mind powers, but that he does such a ****-poor job of having an honest discussion.

I didn't think he did a particularly bad job, he rehashed arguments people make today, so nothing new was brought to the table for us as readers. 28,000 years from now, after an age of superstition, feudal war and mysticism, those arguments are probably fairly fresh to the Priest, or at least not so chalky and old.

pookie
30-09-2009, 08:41
Yep it's a everyday church that's to worship god or gods as no reference is made as to the deity so no christ on a crucifex is mentioned. Yes i noted the almost pointed to hint at the MK1 armour as well. Adding the Emperor into the story would of been nice touch if the right person had written it. Not many people in my opinion can right about truely powerful and inspiring characters well but their are a few. This sorely shows in how poorly the talk about how faith and the rest comes across in the story.

its a church dedicated to the Emperor, raised by the Priest after being saved by the Emp, so technically a pre cursor to what sprungt up as the Imperial Faith, and myabe, this is why its the "last church" the Emp destroying the rest before turning on the one ( and possible only one ) dedicated to him.

Hrw-Amen
30-09-2009, 09:26
Yes, I did get the impression that the church was dedicated to the emperor, what with the whole lightning bit and all. It would be a bit like god turning up at the Vatican, or St Pauls / Westminster Abbey or wherever and setting it on fire after arguing the toss with the Pope / Arch Bishop or whoever.

pookie
30-09-2009, 10:21
Yes, I did get the impression that the church was dedicated to the emperor, what with the whole lightning bit and all. It would be a bit like god turning up at the Vatican, or St Pauls / Westminster Abbey or wherever and setting it on fire after arguing the toss with the Pope / Arch Bishop or whoever.

id qouted Grissom2006, as he indecated that the church was 'non denomination' which wasnt exactly true, it was as you know dedicated to the Emp, although the Priest didnt know this.

Tzen
30-09-2009, 10:49
Ok, the religious arguements in this story are bad.

But I read it and realised thats the point.

If the Emperor went into the place, all bright and golden, spouting amazing philosophical arguements that would have made Plato weep at their intricate reasonings, then he would have appeared to the priest as his God. And he would have modified the religion and would have been justified at worshipping the Emp at least as a higher being than himself.

The emperor in that story wen't into the arguement flawed, to prove to the priest that he himself was arrogant and flawed, and therefor not worthy of the old man's worship.

If the Emperor went into the arguement astounding the priest it would have further encouraged the worship the Big E simply didn't want.

I'll say it again.

The point of the conversation was for the Emperor to convince the priest god's didn't exist, and by being a pompous ass, a philosophical dimwit and insulting, then revealing himself as the "god" the priest believed in, he was attempting to undermine the priests faith.

The intelligent part of this story is the ending, where the Emp has actually openly admitted to this holy man that his faith was false, and tore his whole foundations of the church around him. And yet despite all this, the priest still dies for his "faith".

It's a clever look at the modern world, and how despite being confronted by science and facts and the unlikley events of most religious texts actually being "true", humans still embrace religion against all the odds.

It really bugs me that people acuse Graham Mcneill of not being able to write the Emperor into a novel. And whilst I think most Black library books are the nerd equivalent of mills and boon, Mcneill actually cleverly made sure he had to make the Emperor appear stupid and idiotic so as to be able to give him some dialogue.

EDIT: The emperor was testing himself in the story, he was trying to make himself appear less Godly and more of a tyrant in order to set himself up for the future. If he can convince the priest of this religion he isn't worth worshipping, then maybe its possible to convince the rest of the human population of the galaxy.

Why else do it? He could have just burnt the place down. Thats the only way i can see why he even went in for they chat. The emp did it for himself, not to prove a point to the priest.