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gwarsh41
30-09-2009, 16:17
I read a thread about someone having a moral issue with chaos and it turned into a "chaos are misunderstood and need a hug, there are no bad guys in 40k" thread. While chaos marines may just be following what they think is right, what about chaos daemons.
I have heard several things about how chaos daemons are just here to **** off and kill everything.

During what was going to be a fight against imperial guard, the daemons, mid charge, took a sharp turn and ran straight into an orphanage. Stole all the orphans, and left.

Nurgle apparently has the eldars god of life and well being in a cage in his room. He tests all his vomit poo gas diseases on her because he "loves her".

Does anyone else think that Chaos Daemons are the bad guys? I dont see any way to argue that they are good.

Oh, and whats necrons and dark eldars defence?
Orks are too dumb to know
Tyranids are just hungry and also pretty dumb
SM and IG are bad because they dont listen to the other half of the story
CSM are just doing what is right to them
Tau are the greater good, but join us or die isnt too nice
Eldar are like CSM and IG from what I hear

Chaos daemons want to kill you, really bad!

ryng_sting
30-09-2009, 17:24
'Nurgle apparently has the eldars god of life and well being in a cage in his room. He tests all his vomit poo gas diseases on her because he "loves her".'

A rumour, believed by a single Eldar craftworld.

Tyranids aren't 'dumb'; they know what they want (bio-mass) and that nothing else matters. Even an Ork is a smorgasbord of emotion when compared to a Tyranid.

Chaos Daemons would say they simply 'are'; neither good nor evil, the unwanted by-products of mortal vice, etc. But, since to everyone else they're malevolent, selfish and supremely destructive creatures intent on devouring the material world, that makes them as evil as can be said.

sycopat
30-09-2009, 17:26
40k has no good guys, from any of the "better" guys points of view, everyone else is at best misguided and wrong, to be shown the error of their ways with fire and bombs.

The "evil" guys are seen as evil, even though their only doing what comes naturally. C'tan and tyranids are just following their own biological imperatives, it's not their fault we're lunch. Chaos is just the dark reflection of humanity (I will say chaos marines aren't nice, they may have had noble intentions, but now their just out for themselves.) and the orks... well...

Orks just want to fight because they like a scrap, theirs no malice in it as such. They'd probably happily go drinking with their enemies after a battle.

So depending on your definition of "bad guy" 40k has either no bad guys, or no good guys. Every race has a motive. It's one of the things I like about the setting. No ones evil just because thats their "alignment"

Condottiere
30-09-2009, 17:51
All races are self-serving.

Those whose actions are guided by malice are evil.

gwarsh41
30-09-2009, 18:32
I am curious of dark eldars story though. I have heard necrons are all about making everyone slaves to the necron god or something. Those are the two races I have very little Idea about motives.
Isnt Khornes soul purpose and existence to motivate war and battle, to kill everything and anything? The only purpose is..... blood for the blood god?

El_Machinae
30-09-2009, 19:30
Just because someone can form the dissonance to rationalise a behaviour, it doesn't make the behaviour 'good'. It doesn't even make the behaviour 'good from their perspective'. If they think it's good, but are lying to themselves, it's still not good.

Allowing 'good from their perspective' creates the strange situation where the lower your empathy or knowledge, the more 'good' evil behaviour becomes.

Mannimarco
30-09-2009, 19:49
even the chaos gods arnt evil per se, khorne may be the blood god, the embodyment of rage but he is also the god of martial pride, the patron of soldiers, he is the every form of fighting from honourably duelling with a worthy advesary to sticking a chainaxe in a poor defencelss person

it doesnt really come through in the chaos gods descriptions nowadays but they are also their own opposites

for example nurgle might be the god of pestilience and decay, they god that wants to see everything rotting and ruined but he's alsoa god who of life and laughter and joy, who knows that life will come from death stronger than before, he might give you hardship but he also gives you the strenght and determination to soldier on through it

sycopat
30-09-2009, 21:17
Just because someone can form the dissonance to rationalise a behaviour, it doesn't make the behaviour 'good'. It doesn't even make the behaviour 'good from their perspective'. If they think it's good, but are lying to themselves, it's still not good.

Allowing 'good from their perspective' creates the strange situation where the lower your empathy or knowledge, the more 'good' evil behaviour becomes.


I'm firmly in the "no good guys" camp, but disallowing "good from their perspective" makes the Imperium into space stalinists, with the emperor as space stalin. The Imperium is not a nice place, the Eldar are not nice, the tau may be smiling, but they're not nice and everyone else is worse. Remove "good from their perspective" and the 40k universe isn't so much shades of gray as shades of black. Which suits me, but is a bit too dark for a lot of people.

Anyway, the main thing about "good from their perspective" is that it allows players to empathise with their army, and it also provides ammunition for slagging matches and banter. I think it's easier to collect an army who's motivations you can understand.

Someone was asking about dark eldar, DE need to sacrifice souls to slaanesh in order to prevent the chaos god from eating theirs. This is a necessity for them, but they absolutely revel in it, so to me they are the most evil.

Necrons hate all life, so could be called evil in that they just want to kill everything. But they want to kill everything because their bosses, the Ctans, want to eat them. The necrons have no real free will (Although their has been an increase in their autonomy lately so perhaps that'll change come the next codex) so if the ctan decided they didn't want to eat living things anymore, they'd probably just get turned off, or be reprogammed for another purpose.

(I just thought of something, but with their attitudes of personal freedom, radicalism and individuality, are chaos space marines basically space hippies?)

gwarsh41
30-09-2009, 21:55
Thanks for explaining Dark eldar and necrons. Necrons where similar to what I thought.
I cant picture anyone playing a daemon army as nurgle and saying "dont worry, after I beat you, you will be stronger"
When I play nurgle I laugh about slinging poo at guardsman... Hmm, daemons do bring out the child in me I guess.

Vesica
30-09-2009, 22:45
It depends how you judge good and evil.

Most of the Evils of the Imperium are committed in order to keep the Imperium going and to keep humanity strong, so they do the wrong things for the right reasons.

The same could be said for the Eldar, but being human i see them as foul xeno's who would sacrifice billions of humans to save a handful of eldar.

Canis Wolfborn
01-10-2009, 04:43
You can never really get a definitive answer to who the bad guys are in the Warhammer 40,000 universe because each person has their own opinion. If anything the good guys of the Warhammer 40,000 universe are the Tyranids. They are not driven for money/power/eternal glory, but for survival. That's all they want and nothing more. They have the right to do what they are doing right now. If you disagree look at what we do. We kill animals to survive. Exactly the same thing just a different race is doing the killing. It's survival of the fittest.

Darkmatyr
01-10-2009, 04:49
I agree there are defiantly no good guys in 40k.

As for evil, well I think every race is evil in their own right but most are good by their perspective and evil by others perspectives. Perhaps dark eldar are the evil race because, really, all they want to do is kill, inflict pain and gain pleasure. Of course they have to kill for slaanesh or be consumed but they enjoy doing it.

gunners
01-10-2009, 08:29
A person may cause evil to others not only by his actions but by his inaction, and in either case he is justly accountable to them for the injury.
- John Stuart Mill

Non decesion making. Even though Nurgle is both father, or Grandfather, of disease and resurrection, he is accountable for the loss of life caused by disease even though they resurect.
By that their is ONLY evil or bad guys in 40k... Even the tau! No greater good, is worth anything if it is a demand.

I know it is a rather dark point og view..:p

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-10-2009, 11:14
"We must also fear the indifference of good men!" Eh?

The sequel will suck. In case you didn't know.

Condottiere
01-10-2009, 12:42
I just watched Boondock Saints last night.

genestealer_baldric
01-10-2009, 12:56
There are no "good" guys since the nids ate the starship enterprise and the rest of the fedaration.

No major race is good there may be many benlovent races out there but soon as they meet any of the big uns, well lets just say hybrid spaceships dont compare to a full imperial battle fleet.

Kriegschmidt
01-10-2009, 13:52
Chaos Daemons would say they simply 'are'; neither good nor evil, the unwanted by-products of mortal vice, etc. But, since to everyone else they're malevolent, selfish and supremely destructive creatures intent on devouring the material world, that makes them as evil as can be said.

It's important to note that if you read the Fluff, this only one side of the Chaos gods. For example, Khorne is also the patron of pride and martial prowess; Slaanesh is also the patron of creativity and expression. These are equally valid aspects of the Big Four, it's just that they tend not to get mentioned as much in association with wargames.

DarthSte
01-10-2009, 14:00
It's important to note that if you read the Fluff, this only one side of the Chaos gods. For example, Khorne is also the patron of pride and martial prowess; Slaanesh is also the patron of creativity and expression. These are equally valid aspects of the Big Four, it's just that they tend not to get mentioned as much in association with wargames.

The Keeper of Secrets Special Rule of "stop everything and admire the beauty of the sunset" went out of the Window after Rogue Trader, it just slowed the game down far to much.

Kriegschmidt
01-10-2009, 14:04
The Keeper of Secrets Special Rule of "stop everything and admire the beauty of the sunset" went out of the Window after Rogue Trader, it just slowed the game down far to much.

Look, just 'cos you're allowed to talk nonsense in Teh Wastes now, doesn't mean you can go off-topic willy-nilly everywhere else :p

I think the streamlined nature of the 40k game necessitates every race having an "evil" aspect, so that there is always an excuse for a battle, whatever the races involved. The fact that none of them are black-and-white (apart from Goffs) also means that people have oodles of "moral space" in which to develop character for their armies, characters, etc.

Justicar Cullen
01-10-2009, 15:53
40k has no good guys, from any of the "better" guys points of view, everyone else is at best misguided and wrong, to be shown the error of their ways with fire and bombs.

The "evil" guys are seen as evil, even though their only doing what comes naturally. C'tan and tyranids are just following their own biological imperatives, it's not their fault we're lunch. Chaos is just the dark reflection of humanity (I will say chaos marines aren't nice, they may have had noble intentions, but now their just out for themselves.) and the orks... well...

Orks just want to fight because they like a scrap, theirs no malice in it as such. They'd probably happily go drinking with their enemies after a battle.

So depending on your definition of "bad guy" 40k has either no bad guys, or no good guys. Every race has a motive. It's one of the things I like about the setting. No ones evil just because thats their "alignment"

I can agree to this.

Good and Evil are just matters of perspective. In the eye of the beholder they say.

massey
01-10-2009, 17:01
The Imperium is Space Iran. They're the good guys.

Whenever people try to come up with justifications for the bad guys, I just want to hit somebody. Chaos is evil. It's straight up bad. There's no justification, no "we're just trying to get by in our own way". That's a whole load of moral relativism. If you can't see that Chaos, the Tyranids, the Dark Eldar, and their like are "bad", then you've got a seriously skewed moral compass.

The nids aren't simply hungry. They're driven by a malign alien intelligence that is evil to its core. The nids aren't dumb beasts (well, particular gaunts might be, but the synapse guys aren't). They're bad guys.

Chaos is evil. When you worship a god dedicated to slaughtering indiscriminately, that's evil. Whether Khorne himself is an intelligent being or if he's just a big swirling mass of warp energy, it's unimportant. Guys like the World Eaters aren't worshipping the honorable warrior aspect of Khorne, they're worshipping the "kill everything" aspect. Bloodletters and Bloodthirsters are personifications of that aspect. And things called demons are generally bad.

Dark Eldar are known for rape, mutilation, and torture. They revel in it. That's evil.

If you want to identify with your bad guy army, just think about having fun being the bad guy. But don't try to justify it as being "oh, we're just misunderstood". Stand up for your evilness! Be proud! Be a bad guy!

Mannimarco
01-10-2009, 22:08
"the evil that men do is nothing compared to the evil that WE do"

who says video games arn't educational, this'll be the new motto of my daemon army

Lord Asgul
01-10-2009, 22:46
I think that the Imperium is more a mix of Nazi Germany (purge the subhumans [aka mutants]), USSR (everyone is peasants unless you are a "party member", in which you shall be oppressed), Medieval England (pay your tax, albiet with people or you are dead) and Imperial Japan (The Emperor is a Divine God). But that is what I think...

Tullrian
02-10-2009, 00:16
Tyranids are not controlled by a malign intelligence, they are one creature that has reached optimal evolutionary status combining the ability to create tools and evolving to deal cope with environmental change into the quick changing tyranid being. It would be calling a lion evil because it kills zebras, be it that the tyranid is a very efficient Lion. The more biomass the tyranid has the better chance for survival.

Logarithm Udgaur
02-10-2009, 05:55
The Imperium is Space Iran. They're the good guys...That's a whole load of moral relativism...
So fascist religious dictatorships are good, and everyone else is a "moral relativist?" I guess you have not seen a mirror in a while then?

It would be calling a lion evil because it kills zebras...
I am guessing that if Zebras were smart enough to think about it (or if humans could communicate with them) they would consider Lions to be evil.

Iracundus
02-10-2009, 05:59
To the macroscopic organism that is the sum total of all Tyranids, individual humans, even individual human planetary societies are no more than the equivalent of bacteria on the rest of the food on the plate.

To the bacteria, sure it seems evil how this giant organism is gulping them down and digesting them. But do you have conversations with the bacteria on your food or feel any moral qualms about devouring them and their world? I doubt it. It probably seems similarly ridiculous to the Hive Mind to pay any attention to the individual feelings and thoughts of humans.


Chaos is not necessarily evil. What it is though is extremity. People who follow Chaos are given the freedom from society's mores and rules to pursue their dreams and what they seek. The active worshippers of Chaos tend to follow the law of the jungle, with the strong surviving at the expense of the weak. For those with talent and power and ability, there is virtually no limit to what can be gained, up to and including immortality. This comes at the price of any fairness, justice, or equality. Chaos is ultimately very focused on the individual, and individual freedom, freedom to succeed tremendously or fail disastrously. This is in contrast to the Imperium's monolithic structure that crushes the individual or stifles creativity, or limits those with the ambition and drive to succeed. Is it better or "good"? No, but it's different. For those that are willing to risk all, it is better. For those that seek some safety net or stability in their lives, then no.

Condottiere
02-10-2009, 06:38
Tyranids are not controlled by a malign intelligence, they are one creature that has reached optimal evolutionary status combining the ability to create tools and evolving to deal cope with environmental change into the quick changing tyranid being. It would be calling a lion evil because it kills zebras, be it that the tyranid is a very efficient Lion. The more biomass the tyranid has the better chance for survival.Lions have lobbyists, Zebras do not.

Kriegschmidt
02-10-2009, 08:41
I am guessing that if Zebras were smart enough to think about it (or if humans could communicate with them) they would consider Lions to be evil.

Not if you watch The Lion King!

gwarsh41
02-10-2009, 14:55
How about instead of such harsh words like "Good guy" and "Bad guy" we say "Protagonist" and "Antagonist"?

baphomael
02-10-2009, 16:18
Put simply, the 40k universe is a supreme example of Moral Relativism. Morality, in 40k (and, according to many thinkers in the realm of sociology, moral philosophy and ethics) is purely a relative concept - artificial and based on cultural norms and values. "Good" and "Evil" dont exist outside of sentient experience. Good and Evil are purely constructs that action is ascribed to - for example, cannibalism might be abhorant in the western world, but in certain cultures it is an established norm. Who is wrong? Neither - morality is something bred from one's culture and upbringing.

Cythus
02-10-2009, 16:18
Everyone's in it for themselves, therefore I believe no-one is good as each faction is ultimately only concerned with their own survival. Whether your sentient or not doesn't matter to me, lions kill to survive, tyranids kill to survive, the imperium kills to survive etc. However I believe this just makes you selfish (if you're sentient) not evil.

To be evil in my opinion you need to enjoy this killing etc for survival and you would do it even if it didn't help you survive. For me this makes: dark eldar (and some other eldar), all chaos, the C'tan, some elements of humanity (but not the Imperium as a whole) and orks evil. Yes the C'tan need to devour millions of beings' essence, but they do not need to make those beings suffer before they die, just like you don't need to hurt that chicken before you kill it.

massey
02-10-2009, 20:38
So fascist religious dictatorships are good, and everyone else is a "moral relativist?" I guess you have not seen a mirror in a while then?


That quote was meant to show that even the Imperium is pretty despicable.

The moral relativism charge was against players, not the other races.

HK-47
02-10-2009, 21:07
That quote was meant to show that even the Imperium is pretty despicable.

The moral relativism charge was against players, not the other races.

Moral Relativism isn't bad as long as you know that just because it is relative doesn't mean you do what you want. Only those different cultures have different definitions of "morality".

Grom Wronghand
03-10-2009, 17:20
The nicest race is easily the Tau IMO. Mainly because they're the only race with any kind of capacity to tolerate other species. Orks, CD, CSM, DE, Necrons and Tyranids will kill you/torture you because they can, and while for the Imperium you stand a chance if you're a human, they're still fascist pigs. Same goes for Eldar. The Tau actually seem quite nice, if a tad Machiavellian.

Dexter099
04-10-2009, 20:54
I am curious of dark eldars story though.



Someone was asking about dark eldar, DE need to sacrifice souls to slaanesh in order to prevent the chaos god from eating theirs. This is a necessity for them, but they absolutely revel in it, so to me they are the most evil.

Incorrect. The Dark Eldar don't sacrifice souls to Slaanesh to prevent Slaanesh from eating theirs.

What they actually do is enact depraved schemes in the hopes of Slaanesh finally getting tired of them and leaving their race alone. The only reason they enact depraved schemes is because they fear and hate Slaanesh.

rustypaladin
05-10-2009, 09:08
Good? Evil? The 40K universe really can't be understood in those terms. If you try, you really only come up with the "they're all evil" or, for relativists, "they're all good" argument.

Look at it in terms of Order vs. Chaos vs. Xenos.

The Imperium of Man wants to control everything. It is all pervasive and attempts to regulate every part of people's lives through a huge bureaucracy. Nothing can change because change could disrupt the order that has been developed. This is why the Imperium does not encourage technology research. Any change, including positive change, is bad.

Chaos wants nothing but change. No laws can be allowed. Even the laws of physics must be mutable. It is anarchy at its most extreme form. Some might call this freedom, but in the end it is just chaos.

The Xenos all have their own agendas. In some cases, their agenda might be difficult for a non-alien to understand (this is mostly the GW position on Xenos races). The best example of this would be the Eldar. Racially, do the Eldar have a goal? The Imperium wants to dominate with order. Chaos wants to eliminate any order. Tyranids want to eat (I eat there for I am?). Orks want to fight and dominate (I fight therefor I am?). Tau want to expand their worlds and dominate (Don’t let that Greater Good crap fool you. There are no Kroot, Vespids, or Humans among the Ethereal leadership). Necrons want to harvest life to feed the C’tan. What do the Eldar want? Are they trying to save themselves? Probably. Do they have any goals beyond that? Probably, but we’ll never know exactly what they are. The Xenos are either too simple or too complex to categorize and therefor are a category themselves.

Enough Philosophy! I want to go pound something into paste with my Basilisk batteries!

toxic_wisdom
05-10-2009, 09:28
"...Dark Eldar are known for rape, mutilation, and torture. They revel in it. That's evil..."

From the standpoint of an outsider, sure. But as you said - the Dark Eldar revel in it... its their way of living: its what they know, and what they live by... In a moral view you have what is right versus what is wrong - the nature of their behavior to them is the right thing to do. They would perceive outsiders though - those that live outside of the guidelines of Commorragh - as being evil.

Iracundus
05-10-2009, 11:12
The Xenos all have their own agendas. In some cases, their agenda might be difficult for a non-alien to understand (this is mostly the GW position on Xenos races). The best example of this would be the Eldar. Racially, do the Eldar have a goal? The Imperium wants to dominate with order. Chaos wants to eliminate any order. Tyranids want to eat (I eat there for I am?). Orks want to fight and dominate (I fight therefor I am?). Tau want to expand their worlds and dominate (Don’t let that Greater Good crap fool you. There are no Kroot, Vespids, or Humans among the Ethereal leadership). Necrons want to harvest life to feed the C’tan. What do the Eldar want? Are they trying to save themselves? Probably. Do they have any goals beyond that? Probably, but we’ll never know exactly what they are. The Xenos are either too simple or too complex to categorize and therefor are a category themselves.


That's just a copout excuse to avoid exploring xenos in any detail. Just because they are alien doesn't suddenly render everything they do impossible to understand or illogical or nonsensical. The Imperium may not understand due to prejudice and lack of data but a reader is quite capable of understanding.

We know perfectly well what the Tau and Eldar motivations are. The Tau are aiming to expand in their own version of manifest destiny. The Eldar manipulate other races to deflect threats they see coming in their future. Each craftworld is separate and meddling with the future is imprecise so they aren't perfect at it. In Craftworld Eldar Codex, the existence of Ynnead was revealed and was shown to be the last hope of the Eldar. The Eldar are building a god to fight Chaos.

rustypaladin
05-10-2009, 13:57
I agree with you regarding the Tau and thought I said that in my post. I was unaware the Eldar were trying to build a god. Was that 2nd or 3rd edition? I'd go back and check, but my digital copy of the Craftworld Codex was lost in a hard drive crash a few months ago.

massey
05-10-2009, 16:27
From the standpoint of an outsider, sure. But as you said - the Dark Eldar revel in it... its their way of living: its what they know, and what they live by... In a moral view you have what is right versus what is wrong - the nature of their behavior to them is the right thing to do. They would perceive outsiders though - those that live outside of the guidelines of Commorragh - as being evil.

That's the very definition of moral relativism. I'm not a moral relativist, so I will disagree with you. Evil is evil.

Were the Salem witch trials right because it was the accepted way of life? Was Apartheid just fine because that was the "right" thing to do? Were lynch mobs in the 1920s and 30s okay because that's what society accepted? No. Those things were all wrong, in and of themselves.

Sceleris82
05-10-2009, 17:18
The whole good bad discussion is weird, because people keep claiming it doesnt excist in 40k due to xx reason.
Well the same reasoning could be used in the real world to, that anyone does a "good" act to gain somthing and bla bla. So taking a objektive stance if your gonna discuss good or bad doesnt work, so basicly you have to follow your own figure of good evil, forexample i see the emperors children as evil, since they like to do crazy things to innocent people. And i see the grey knights as good since they fight for humanity.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-10-2009, 23:50
You could make that argument about the real world but you'd have to completely disprove altruism as a possibility. Whereas I'm pretty certain that altruism is something you can find in tiny amounts in 40k but the main races' goals do not rate it as exactly a top priority.

baphomael
06-10-2009, 01:25
Moral Relativism isn't bad as long as you know that just because it is relative doesn't mean you do what you want. Only those different cultures have different definitions of "morality".

Exactly, acknowlaging different cultural norms is *not* the same as *advocating* those norms.



Good? Evil? The 40K universe really can't be understood in those terms. If you try, you really only come up with the "they're all evil" or, for relativists, "they're all good" argument.

Um, for a relativist, they're *neither*.


That's the very definition of moral relativism. I'm not a moral relativist, so I will disagree with you. Evil is evil.

Were the Salem witch trials right because it was the accepted way of life? Was Apartheid just fine because that was the "right" thing to do? Were lynch mobs in the 1920s and 30s okay because that's what society accepted? No. Those things were all wrong, in and of themselves.

The moral relativist *cant* and say anything is the 'right way' to do things. The moral relativist can only recognise that such things have happened due to social and cultural input.

To say 'evil is evil' is also simplifying a far larger issue - it suggests that morality, that good and evil, are objective truths. If so, outside of some kind of divine ordinance, where do they come from?


You could make that argument about the real world but you'd have to completely disprove altruism as a possibility. Whereas I'm pretty certain that altruism is something you can find in tiny amounts in 40k but the main races' goals do not rate it as exactly a top priority.

Countless thinkers have critiqued the idea of altruism. A notable criticism, very briefly, is the idea that 'selfless' acts arnt selfless at all - since we may gain personal satisfaction or social approval from them. Example, giving to charity has often been called 'middle-class guilt'.

toxic_wisdom
06-10-2009, 02:24
"...That's the very definition of moral relativism. I'm not a moral relativist, so I will disagree with you. Evil is evil..."

Think you missed the point...

If one Dark Eldar Warrior watches another Dark Eldar Warrior remove the head of its victim and place it on his trophy rack, he may exchange some equivalent of a high-five and "good job" ... there is no evil in this act because that's just the norm for them.

If the victim was one of a fleeing squad of Space Marines, they may look back on the event and think "evil" ... to them this behavior may not be the norm.

Would a community of cannibals, hidden away from time and modern elements, be considered evil ?

Condottiere
06-10-2009, 17:11
Cannibalism tends to break a human cultural taboo, so we tend to place them as evil, if not abominable.

Iracundus
06-10-2009, 17:47
Cannibalism tends to break a human cultural taboo, so we tend to place them as evil, if not abominable.

That is by no means a universal taboo any more so than other cultural beliefs.

There are societies in real life that have practiced ritual cannibalism, either on captives of war or on family members. In such cases, the practice has been intertwined with their religious beliefs. Consumption of a family member was a form of communion with the honored dead, and the taking in of their virtues.

The Inevitable One
06-10-2009, 20:52
All sentient races are driven by the wants of the world or in this case the galaxy/universe. Opinions differ every way you go so there is no definitive answer to who the bad guys are in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

The Inevitable One

Mánagarmr
06-10-2009, 21:17
Think you missed the point...

If one Dark Eldar Warrior watches another Dark Eldar Warrior remove the head of its victim and place it on his trophy rack, he may exchange some equivalent of a high-five and "good job" ... there is no evil in this act because that's just the norm for them.

If the victim was one of a fleeing squad of Space Marines, they may look back on the event and think "evil" ... to them this behavior may not be the norm.

Would a community of cannibals, hidden away from time and modern elements, be considered evil ?

That argument doesn't hold water when you compare the Dark Eldar culture to the original Eldar they used to be part of.

The craftworlds that fled before the birth of Slaanesh warned of the "taint" and "corruption" that had overcome their people, warning that it would be their downfall.

The Dark Eldar weren't some secluded group of innocents who came about via strange cultural differences, they were members of a normal society who embraced what was believed to be selfish, self destructive and overall "evil" ideals and practices.

They are indeed evil, there is no gray area to be had.

Iracundus
06-10-2009, 21:30
That argument doesn't hold water when you compare the Dark Eldar culture to the original Eldar they used to be part of.

The craftworlds that fled before the birth of Slaanesh warned of the "taint" and "corruption" that had overcome their people, warning that it would be their downfall.

The Dark Eldar weren't some secluded group of innocents who came about via strange cultural differences, they were members of a normal society who embraced what was believed to be selfish, self destructive and overall "evil" ideals and practices.

They are indeed evil, there is no gray area to be had.

They are only selfish and "evil" practices from the viewpoint of the Craftworld Eldar, who themselves took a divergent cultural path over time.

The pre-Fall Eldar didn't Fall in one go. They gradually became more decadent and hedonistic. The Craftworld Eldar set up their own society with their own more conservative cultural mores. Viewed from the perspective of the pre-Fall decadent Eldar, the Craftworld Eldar might have seemed like the ludicrous "end of the world" conspiracy theorists holing up in a bunker practicing a strict fundamentalist (and outdated to pre-Fall Eldar eyets) religion.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-10-2009, 11:23
Countless thinkers have critiqued the idea of altruism. A notable criticism, very briefly, is the idea that 'selfless' acts arnt selfless at all - since we may gain personal satisfaction or social approval from them. Example, giving to charity has often been called 'middle-class guilt'.

I see their point too. I know people who are and situations that seem like someone is trying to appear to be 'good' rather than be 'good,' or those who are 'good' when it is convenient for them. However, I'm not a moral relativist. Suffice to say I don't think such behavior is universal.