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Urath
30-09-2009, 22:40
A warm welcome to you.

I have a question based off of the armour marks in my Dark Angel army. Now, I'll soon be in possession of thirty marines in MK.VI armour. I have another twenty or so Marines with a mix of MK.V/VI/VII armour and a few with MK.IIX and about five in MK.IV. A Chaplain and Company Master in MK.III.

Now, it's generally acknowledged that MK.VII, with a few pieces of MK.V, and the odd MK.VI suit form the basis of a Chapter's armoury. There are exceptions, of course; such as the Red Scorpions, Marines Malevolent and the Consecrators.

Considering my army has a rough 50%+ of MK.VI and below, does this seem reasonable for a Company of the First Legion? Should they have mostly MK.VII and IIX suits, or would older MK.s be prevailant?

I'm just curious as my abundance of old, and inferior tech, could be hindering the otherwise cracking tech of the Dark Angels.

Leftenant Gashrog
30-09-2009, 22:59
Mk6 is far from inferior, according to the definitive armour fluff article in WD129/RT Compilation it was so effective that it not only remains in standard service along aside Mk7, but "many" chapters have not even bothered to adopt Mk7 at all. The fact that the Dark Angels sprue includes a beakie is a fair indication that the DA are in the mixed camp.

Urath
30-09-2009, 23:02
Mm, perhaps. But anyway, inferior doesn't have to mean inept. MK.VI is weaker than MK.VII, but it is still great. Same goes for MK.IV.

Arakanis
30-09-2009, 23:05
I was always under the impression that generally speaking, the older marks of armour were preferred, and were typically superior to more modern makes of power armour. Most of the suits in a chapters possession that are that old are going to probably be master-crafted in terms of loving and devout care and attention.

That being said, if any Chapter were to have the oldest, best maintained equipment it's gonna be the Dark Angels.

AndrewGPaul
01-10-2009, 00:41
Not sure about mark 8, since it was never part of the venerable article Leftenant Gashrog mentions. However, there was no inclination that "newer" armour marks were inferior, except for a mention about mark 2 "Crusade" armour being favoured by some armourers. Even then, it's notoriously difficult to maintain.

Mark 8 armour is the only post-Heresy variant ever shown; even mark 7 was present during the Heresy, albeit right at the end - the first suits were rushed to the loyalists ans Horus' troops overran Mars.

mark 7 is described as an improvement over mark 6 - if only for the additional protection offered by the breastplate over the chest cabling.

pookie
01-10-2009, 10:52
Mark 8 armour is the only post-Heresy variant ever shown; even mark 7 was present during the Heresy, albeit right at the end - the first suits were rushed to the loyalists ans Horus' troops overran Mars.

According to the HH book Mechancium, MKIV was the last suit mark rushed to Terra after Dorn lead a force to the Two Loyalist production forges.

Although i dont see why MKV/MKVI/MKVII couldnt have been developed in limited numbers on Terra.

OT - i can easily see the DA using various Marks of armour at diffrent times, and certainly is fitting for the First Legion.

The Anarchist
01-10-2009, 11:04
Dark Angels are the most likely to have all types of armour, being the first Legion and one of the first to be founded. they are also particularly good at mantaining the tech they have. some of the older armours are superior to the newer ones, also worth thinking about the fact the older armours were produced in fewer numbers, with more tech-adepts per suit of armour than later generations of armour, so more likely to be crafted to the highest spec possible.

tcraigen
01-10-2009, 11:26
Call it Legacy armour, think of it as really tough family china. It has been passed down and refit over and over again. It's not so much that its old tech, the inner bits are likely upgraded to match new standards like coms, etc but the shell structure of the armour is a charished thing, the older it is the better in most tech adapts minds, so Id consider that most of your armour being old school as a good thing. Otherwise if you wanted new stuff, you shoulda picked Mentors.

AndrewGPaul
01-10-2009, 13:42
According to the HH book Mechancium, MKIV was the last suit mark rushed to Terra after Dorn lead a force to the Two Loyalist production forges.

The armour production lines were moved to Terra before the Siege of Earth, when the Mechanicus' loyalties became suspect. The first mark 7 suits were coming off the lines on Mars as Horus' troops arrived. Note this is after the events of Mechanicum - that features the initial revolts of Horus' allies in the Mechanicus, not the actual invasion by his forces.

Traitor forces captured some of the mark 6 production lines, as well as previously acquiring some shipments, so both sides wore mark 6 suits. Mark 5 suits were more common in Loyalist ranks, IIRC, because the rebels had had priority for shipments of the then-new mark 4 suits.

While it's likely that the Horus Heresy author's shoddy research will contradict this in time, it's still possible for that to happen.

pookie
01-10-2009, 14:03
The armour production lines were moved to Terra before the Siege of Earth, when the Mechanicus' loyalties became suspect. The first mark 7 suits were coming off the lines on Mars as Horus' troops arrived. Note this is after the events of Mechanicum - that features the initial revolts of Horus' allies in the Mechanicus, not the actual invasion by his forces.

Traitor forces captured some of the mark 6 production lines, as well as previously acquiring some shipments, so both sides wore mark 6 suits. Mark 5 suits were more common in Loyalist ranks, IIRC, because the rebels had had priority for shipments of the then-new mark 4 suits.

While it's likely that the Horus Heresy author's shoddy research will contradict this in time, it's still possible for that to happen.

ah i see, form mechanacium, i got the impression that Mars was fairly well over run and incontrol by the forces loyal to Horus/Dark Mech, and hadnt realised that Some of the production lines were saved.

and yeah, the HH authors probably will change the backgound as they have want to do.

but cheers, always like to have things cleared up ( btw wheres that info from? )

AndrewGPaul
01-10-2009, 14:25
White Dwarf 129, reprinted in the Warhammer 40,000 Compilation. Earlier material mentioned that Horus' forces invaded Mars (presumably to wipe out the loyalist forces holding out there) on the way to Earth. A bit like Sheridan's fleet in season 4 of Babylon 5. :)

As of Mechanicum (IIRC, the last, chronologically, in the HH series), Horus is still at Istvaan (or is it Isstvan?). There's still a whie to go before Horus moves on Earth (the Scouring of Prospero, for a start, as well as the corruption of the Death Guard).

Tonberry
01-10-2009, 15:53
Slight thread jacking but still OT: Would it be possible for the Dark Angels to maintain any pre-Astartes power armour suits?

By this I mean those worn by the Calibanite orders before The Emperor's arrival, before they were astartes; those men such as Luther who recieved limited bio-engineering but were too old to become full astartes.

It seems unlikely as I doubt any astartes would fit in one but I'm still curious.

Bergioyn
01-10-2009, 16:50
I think They would have some of old calibanite suits somewhere stored, but they propably would be next to useless because of couple of reasons, firstly they would be very crude compared to astartes armour, and secondly, as you mentioned, SM propably wouldn't fit in them because they were designed for humans to wear.

Urath
01-10-2009, 19:31
Mm, I always assumed that MK.IV was the pinnacle of Astartes armour. Think of it like this:
In Fallout, the Brotherhood of Steel makes use of the basic T-45d design, the original suits of Power Armor. Later, the T-51b emerged and is, without a doubt, the greatest suit of Power Armor ever created, yet it's manufacture is lost to the majority of post-war apocalyptia. TheEnclave is able to create suits of Advanced Power Armor, MK.II, Tesla Power Armor and Hellfire Armor. Advanced Power Armor and Advanced MK.II is not as agile as the T-51b and it's also less resiliant to damage, but easier to construct and maintain. While stronger and also rarer, the Tesla Power Armor is more advanced than the MK.II, but is still less resilient than the T-51b. While the Hellfire, equivilant to Astartes MK.IIX, is almost on par with the pre-war T-51b, but is still easier to maintain and create.

Even after the war, with readily available technology (in the case of the Enclave) and two hundred years later, they still haven't been able to create a superior form of armor, than the T-51b.

This is how I see MK.VI, VII and, to a lesser extent, MK.IIX. With MK.IV being the hardest to create and maintain, but by far the best. Surely this was sacrificed when the Mechanicum began to simplify the design which began with MK.V and progressed into MK.VI/VII/IIX. Yet, in this case, in 10,000 years they haven't been able to recreate a suit with the MK.IV's damage resistance and other abilities, without compromising on ease of maintanance and availability.

Aliarzathanil
02-10-2009, 03:01
I would think if they had old Calibanite armour, parts of it it would be worked into the newer suits (mostly for decoration and sentimental value than actual protection).
My Dark Angels use a mix or armour, although certain squads (the chaplin's command squad with relic bearer) tend to wear older MKs. while devastators tend to have the newer suits.

tcraigen
02-10-2009, 08:47
Alright pass it off as, the shipment got lost in the mail after delivery was unable to find your current address at its stated location and sadly that armour is now out of print. Sorry DA you have been credited your payment back to your webwaypaypal account.

AndrewGPaul
02-10-2009, 09:19
Mark 6 was described as an improved mark 4 design, and mark 7 an incremental improvement on that.

Mark 5 was never a proper design. It came about because the rebels had priority for the supply of mark 4 suits, and when the Heresy started, the supply of suits was interrupted. because it was a new design, there were insufficient stockpiles of spare, so Marine armourers had to cobble together suits from whatever spares they had lying around, until the mark 6 production lines started up.

Urath
02-10-2009, 09:49
Mark 6 was described as an improved mark 4 design, and mark 7 an incremental improvement on that.

Mark 5 was never a proper design. It came about because the rebels had priority for the supply of mark 4 suits, and when the Heresy started, the supply of suits was interrupted. because it was a new design, there were insufficient stockpiles of spare, so Marine armourers had to cobble together suits from whatever spares they had lying around, until the mark 6 production lines started up.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. Although it's still known as it's own suit of armour, if that makes sense.

MajorWesJanson
02-10-2009, 13:38
Another semi-hijack.

What armor production lines are still running?

Mk VIII Errant is the newest, an update on the Mk VII Aquila, which was an update on the Mk VI Corvus. (Though it seems parts are still interchanged)

It all production slowly shifting to Mk VIII Errant only, or are there still lines building Corvus and Aquila armor? Are there still chapter forges building parts for older marks like the III and IV or are the pre-heresy armor patterns still in service left over from way back then?

Urath
02-10-2009, 20:48
I'd imagine that MK.VII and MK.IIX is currently in production on most forge worlds. Still, it's possible that MK.VI is still going strong or perhaps they've gradually phased it out and have full-on replaced it.

I'd imagine Chapter Forges produce older MKs of armour and keep what venerable suits they do have, up to standard.

pookie
03-10-2009, 15:18
MKVIII was desgined to protect against the most vulnerable part of MKVII - hence why it has a 'collar' this is to protect the Gene Seed within a marines neck.

Col. Tartleton
03-10-2009, 17:41
No offense to anyone, but its MK VIII not MK IIX. Just thought I'd clarify that. There's a way to write latin, and that's not it. :)

MK 7 had to be in production by the late heresy, because most CSM seem to have it... Not all, but a lot.

Anyhow, the DA would probably have a large surplus of armor. I get the feeling the rock has armories with hundreds of suits sitting in storage...

On the surface I presume that they'd probably be in MK VIII and MK VII sergeants and anyone special in power armor getting a pick of the older armors. So vets, special weapon troopers, sergeants all get MK VIII or older issue, with as much iconography and extra bits on each model (including MK VII troops) as you can pull off well. I'd cover armor in carvings and script, parchments hanging off everything, daggers and swords strapped on to greaves and hanging from belts, etc.

And make them the darkest shade of green you can without being black. They should be green with enough black ink to make them look evil. They're supposed to be. Err...good...

Dark Angels should look like the vets of other chapters. For every 30-40 marines you make get a black templar and dark angel "upgrade kit" to make them suitably gothic.

Just my opinion.

Urath
03-10-2009, 17:48
Yeah, MK.VIII. Assumed that I was wrong as everyone else was doing it.

All of my Dark Angels are as dark a green as you can get without being black. Yeah, Aldurukh/Tower of Angels/The Rock is described as having a labyrnth network of tunnels, dungeons and chambers, so I think it's safe to assume they have a lot of old tech still kept in storage.

Remember, the Consecrators also seem to possess a helluva lot of ancient tech "it was as if they had inherited the most ancient arms of the Dark Angels Legion...", so I'm not sure.

Leftenant Gashrog
03-10-2009, 17:50
Funnily enough the 2nd edition Dark Angel Tactical Squad box was MkVII all round except for the Sergeant who had MkVIII (I believe it was the Eavy Metal article for that where it was stated that MkVIII was a recent innovation and so far mostly issued to officers)

Urath
03-10-2009, 17:54
Damn it :p

I might have to use most of my ancient armour marks for my "Unforgive Strike Force" which could become purely Consecrators or Angels of Vengeance.

Col. Tartleton
03-10-2009, 18:00
Which is why I think they have as much or more armor on the rock as they did during their legionary era.

Just because you are down to a thousand active duty marines doesn't mean you only have a thousand suits of PA. They may have ten thousand suits on the rock if not more. There's no way anyone would find out. Each marine may have a dozen suits of armor at his disposal. We really don't know... If anyone was stockpiling armor it would probably be the chapter that has a tendency to go "legionary" on certain "mysterious" enemies in terms of the semi unification of the unforgiven.

The BT go outside the limits of the chapter because Dorn was stubborn.

The UM are hypocrites with an entire empire at their disposal.

The DA have a hollowed out moon sized boulder full of stockpiled loot for when the Dark Angel wakes up and calls the legion together. If the Lion awoke from his slumber and ordered a "Hostile Deliverance of the Imperium" they'd probably want some extra suits for all the thousands of new marines he'd need. I doubt the Mechanicus would just give them to him. They need to do it in secret.

I've always imagined the rock as being designed (well sort of) to hold thousands upon thousands of marines. As is it's an empty shell of what it could be. But there'd definitely be room for all seven unforgiven chapters and probably a lot more than that.

AndrewGPaul
04-10-2009, 10:20
Funnily enough the 2nd edition Dark Angel Tactical Squad box was MkVII all round except for the Sergeant who had MkVIII (I believe it was the Eavy Metal article for that where it was stated that MkVIII was a recent innovation and so far mostly issued to officers)

I think there was a trend for that - the Grey Hunter sergeant also had mark 8 armour, as did the sergeant in the 3rd edition Tactical Squad box. Apart from the ankle armour, that is - that was mark 7 (or mark 6, depending on which legs you used).

Leftenant Gashrog
04-10-2009, 10:50
as did the sergeant in the 3rd edition Tactical Squad box.

Personally I've always regarded that torso as Mk7 as it had the Mk7 unarmoured power cables.

AndrewGPaul
04-10-2009, 13:05
Ah, true - I've not looked closely in a while. Looks like mark 7 with a mark 8 chestplate.

Raellos
17-10-2009, 23:41
MKVIII was desgined to protect against the most vulnerable part of MKVII - hence why it has a 'collar' this is to protect the Gene Seed within a marines neck.

I think it's just that the neck on the 7 and most other previous designs is a bit of an unnecessary shot trap.

NashTrickster
18-10-2009, 00:34
It's just my opinion, my view of this particular detail of the universe, but I always considered that marks of armour as they evolved suffered through the same kind of "trend" that most household hardware went through in the last 20 years: as mark number increased the armour offered slightly better protection, and maybe other "gadgets" that were inexistant on older marks, but in the process they slightly lost in reliability... (As more and more electronics found their way into our washing machines, fridges --etc-- and even our cars, they all became slightly more effective than their "purely mechanical" counterparts of old, but much more prone to the odd "bug" making them stop to function while they're otherwise in perfect condition...)

That'd be why older marks are still prefered by those who care about reliability, i.e. those who are on the field.

The problem however would be the same as someone who still owns a 20 year old, say, washing machine would face: finding replacement parts to fix it when it disfunctions/is broken (which happens much less often than with its newer equivalents but still happens once in a while) can be extremely hard...

Though, unlike in our consumerist society where you are heavily encouraged to throw away the older stuff to replace it with the less reliable newer one, in the Imperium old stuff usually means precious stuff and even old stuff that doesn't work anymore would be kept, simply waiting for another of those to disfunction/be partly destroyed in battle and provide the replacement parts needed...

Thus the number of active old marks of armour would indeed be less and less as time goes by, with lots more (mostly complete) stored safely in the chapter's fortress-monastery in wait for the vital replacement parts that will allow it to be used again...

Now, as far as using lots of MkVI armour in a chapter such as the Dark Angels, the direct descendants of a 1st founding legion, I'd see no problem with that... In fact, I think they probably have so many of these "left-over" from the time of the Heresy that they could equip a good part of the chapter with them, but don't because they're considered too precious to be risked en masse on the battlefield.

Also, the Dark Angels actually have three different types of veterans: the first company vets, who all wear Terminator armour, other companies' vets inducted in the Inner Circle and thus wearing the white robes, and finally other companies vets not inducted into the Inner Circle... And it's not because this last type are not considered ready to be revealed the awful truth about the Chapter's past that they aren't fine fighters, who could be rewarded by being offered the opportunity to wear one of the older mark of armour on the battlefield...

So if you're looking for a fluffy justification of DA using lots of MkVI armour, you can simply say your force is made up of lots of company veterans that those in the Inner Circle don't deem ready to know the "ultimate secret" ;)