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keldon33
01-10-2009, 00:32
Hi,

I have a question regarding blood knights and their frenzy. Now I know the unit MUST charge an enemy that is within range. However, I wanted clarification here. Say I place a varghulf 1" infront of the bloodknights and move it up the board constantly infront of them. If an enemy comes within 14" of the knights would they have to charge it? Since the varghulf is 1" infront of them, they would have no room to maneuver around him and get a clean line of charge to the enemy. So my question is then would this stop the frenzy problem of the knights?

Thanks

Tarian
01-10-2009, 00:38
As far as I know, yes. If they cannot "reach" their target, they do not have to declare a charge against it.

Witchblade
01-10-2009, 00:58
It's called screening and it's perfectly legal.

nosferatu1001
01-10-2009, 00:59
You must declare a charge if you have sufficient charge reach - charge reach takes into account any wheeling, any terrain penalties etc. Not being able to physically move the models so they complete the charge is definitely meaning they arent in charge reach.

Necromancy Black
01-10-2009, 01:32
You must declare a charge if you have sufficient charge reach - charge reach takes into account any wheeling, any terrain penalties etc. Not being able to physically move the models so they complete the charge is definitely meaning they arent in charge reach.

This is spot on. As someone has said before, this tactic is called Frenzy Screening and is perfectly legal.

Zeuy
01-10-2009, 03:55
What would you do in this case: Frenzied vampire with bloodknights. The vampire can definitely charge out to reach an enemy unit, but the bloodknights cannot because of a dire wolf unit. The unit POSSIBLY could reach a second enemy unit, if the dire wolves charge and leave enough room for wheeling. Assume the dire wolves charge and that upon moving the dire wolves, you discover that the bloodknights can't make it.

If the consensus is that the VC player can declare the charge at either unit, what happens if the VC player and opponent disagree on the bloodknights' ability to make the charge before hand? How can the opponent prove that the bloodknights cannot get past the dire wolves without moving the dire wolves?

Tarian
01-10-2009, 03:57
Well, frenzied units never declare a charge unless they can make it. As for the Vamp, he'd probably charge off on his lonesome.

Necromancy Black
01-10-2009, 06:10
If the consensus is that the VC player can declare the charge at either unit

This isn't the consensus. The Frenzied unit is not 100% within charge range so isn't forced to make the charge. The Vampire Character is, so is forced to charge by himself.

Avian
01-10-2009, 06:32
How did the Vampire become frenzied? If he was just in the unit he'd have to move along with them, but he'd not be frenzied himself and so could not be forced to charge out of the unit.

the_picto
01-10-2009, 09:07
Konrad or Vlad, after Isabella has died, could both be frenzied. There's also a slaneeshi spell that makes a unit frenzied. So it's not impossible, just unlikely.

Necromancy Black
01-10-2009, 10:32
There's also a slaneeshi spell that makes a unit frenzied. So it's not impossible, just unlikely.

Pretty sure that spell doesn't work against units Immune to Psychology.

But yeah, there are ways that the situation can arise.

warlord hack'a
01-10-2009, 12:08
please search other threads regarding this same topic, discussions going on and on about what is charge reach etc. and if frenzied units can declare charges whilst the screen is still in front of them etc.

Zeuy
01-10-2009, 16:31
The vampire became frenzied after miscasting during the second scenario of 'Ard Boyz. The problem we had was we couldn't determine if the bloodknights could make it into combat or not without moving the dire wolves. The judge ruled that the VC player could pick the target to charge; so we moved the wolves, found out the bloodknights couldn't make it, and it was a failed charge.

His reasoning was that a charge cannot be declared if the chargers definitely won't make it, but in this case, one player believed they could make it. However, if I'm reading the responses correctly, it should have been played that we move the wolves first, then measure charge ranges?

Warlord hack'a: Searching "frenzied charges" yields many results which are CLOSE to this situation, but do not quite answer the question. My question differed in that the screen CHARGES, but the players cannot determine if the frenzied unit can make it until the screen is MOVED. So, yes, I did indeed use the search function before asking. ;)

narrativium
01-10-2009, 16:48
No, you declare all charges, including the frenzied ones (last), before compulsory movement and charges occur.

A unit can declare a charge against a unit it can see but cannot currently reach, if it can be determined that obstructing units may move out of the way before the charge occurs (e.g. other units charging or fleeing out of the way).

In this case, if the wolves could see one target and the blood knights another, with the wolves' movement necessary for the success of the blood knights' charge, then the declaration of charges was legal, but the wolves would have declare (with all charges of the player's choice) followed by the frenzied units, and then the charging units are moved in turn, and thus the wolves before the knights.

I think in most instances it's convenient to measure the knights' charge after the wolves have moved, but if (say) fleeing troops get in the way of the charge, or charge reactions come into play, the situation may get more complicated.

Zeuy
01-10-2009, 18:23
So, the charge by the bloodknights against the second target is legal because it is debatable as to whether or not the bloodknights will be able to make it since the wheel needed isn't certain? Thus, the VC player can pick the second target to avoid having his frenzied character charge out of the bloodknights, even though charging at the second unit will ultimately be a failed charge?

Maybe I should make an illustration to ease confusion (mostly my own)?

nosferatu1001
01-10-2009, 21:48
COntingent charges, i.e. charges that require smoething else to happen first (like fleeing troops getting out the way, other charges suceeding) are legal charges, and therefore Frenzied units must make such charge declarations as they can have sufficient reach.

So you should determine if the unit can make it into combat by measuring the wheel before moving the dogs, which can be done (mark position of dogs, measure, replace dogs for an example) which determines if you have a charge you can decalre for the BK. If this is found to be out of range, as it was in your example, BK cannot make a charge declaration and the frenzied Vamp must do so.

Where it gets very, very awkward is where you have one time bonuses to charges such as Banners - this should always be discussed at the start of a game, as strictly speaking by allowing contingent charges as legal in the current FAQ this compels Frenzied units to declare them - including, in theory, charges where if they roll high enough they could be in range, as an example.

TheDarkDaff
01-10-2009, 22:17
In that particular case you would need to work out 2 things. What can the Blood Knights see and are they in charge reach. If they can see the unit the wolves charge plus another unit but are only in range of the unit the wolves declare a charge against then they must ddeclare a charge against the same unit as the wolves. You would also move the Blood Knights and Wolves at the same time as they have now declared a charge against the same unit.

So what you end up with is
1. the Wolves have to declare their charge first
2. the Blood Knights must declare a charge if they are in charge range due to frenzy
3. if the Knights can see the Wolves target unit and it is the only one in range (even if only with the wolves charging) then they must also declare a charge against that unit
4. if the knights are completely out of range but an attached frenzied character is in range and his own LoS then the character must charge out by themselves

Skyth
04-10-2009, 03:01
Frenzied units can only get a failed charge due to flee reactions...If they won't reach for any reason, they don't declare a charge.

Zeuy
05-10-2009, 02:58
I think I figured out the answer to my question. In the attached picture, I've tried to draw an example of the situation. I know it's not exact, but please bear with me. Also, something I forgot to mention was that sliding rules were in effect.

Map Key: Blue unit at slant= Dire Wolves, Filled in blue box= Frenzied vampire character, 8 wide blue unit= Bloodknights, 5x4 red unit=Warriors, 1x10 red unit=Archers.

According to the BRB, the controlling player may pick which unit to charge if there are multiple targets. If a condition of charging the archers is that the wolves move out of the way, BRB FAQ 1 says the charge can be declared. BRB FAQ 2 says that frenzied units declare after regular charges and reactions have been declared.

1. Dire wolves declare charge at Warriors and they hold.
2. Measure frenzied units; 2 conclusions.
a. Vampire character can definitely charge the warriors.
b. Blood Knights could possibly charge the archers depending on where the wolves end up.
3. Bloodknights could possibly make it (because of sliding), so the VC player aims them at the archers to avoid the absolutely certain charge of the character at the warriors.
4. Wolves block the charge, failed charge.

Due to the sliding rule, the final position of the dire wolves was not absolutely certain, so it was possible for the bloodknights to make it (they ended up clipping the wolves by about 1/8 of an inch). This made it possible for the bloodknights to have a failed charge.

TheDarkDaff
05-10-2009, 09:17
The problem is that frenzy charges can only be declared in the first place if they are in charge range. You can't fail a frenzy charge unless the enemy flee or somehow ruduce the charging units movement (like that Dwarf banner rune). If the wolves are in the way then you can't declare the frenzy charge in the first place and the Blood Knights would be required to charge the other unit with the Wolves which is in charge range.

It is one of those points were you have to abstract a bit. If the wolves would end up in the way then the only legal charge the Blood Knights can make is at the Infantry the wolves are charging. If the wolves get out of the way then the Blood Knights would be able to charge them instead and you may choose the target. You only ever get the option to charge the archers if they are definately in charge reach as per the frenzy rules.

Zeuy
05-10-2009, 18:48
However, in the example given, I was attempting to show that the player is not sure if the wolves will be in the way. In this case, he should be able to declare the charge if he thinks the unit can make it. No where in the frenzy rules does it say the unit can only charge if it is 100% certain that the unit can make it, only that the target must be within charge range. Since the frenzied unit must declare the charge before moving chargers, there would be no way for the controlling player to be absolutely certain in all cases.

TheDarkDaff
05-10-2009, 21:12
You have to measure to see if a frenzied unit is in charge range. That means you have to take all that into account or they can't declare the charge at all and that is in the frenzy rules.

In this particular case i would suggest a little time warp to ensure the rules are followed as completely as possible. Move the wolves first to see if the Blood Knights can get past. If they can't then declare the required charge into the infantry unit instead. If you do this then the Wolves and Knights are considered to be moved at the same time so you can do a bit of re-jigging of position. The other method is to use some place holders to see if the knights can fit past.

The point i am making is that if they aren't in charge range then the Blood Knights can't declare the charge at all. If you are unsure then you have to check in one way or another.

Zeuy
05-10-2009, 22:59
However, the rules do not say to declare the charge after moving other charges. No where do the rules say to move everything to make absolutely sure that the charge will succeed. The bloodknights were in charge range and the player thought he would have enough room to wheel. In this instance, the success of the charge was not absolute. It relied on the player's judgement, which was off by 1/8", resulting in a failed charge.

Also, the bloodknights would definitely not be able to charge the big block unit; the frenzied vampire unit could, but the bloodknights cannot physically make contact with the warriors unit. Even with a simultaneous charge, they would not make it past the wolves.

TheDarkDaff
06-10-2009, 11:12
If they would fail the charge because of insuffient room to wheel then they aren't in charge range. This is absolutely black and white with no wiggle room. Unless a frenzied unit can make contact with it's charge it can't declare it as it is not in charge range.

I am taking your picture to be fairly exact so the wolves will end up in the flank (left hand side) of the Infantry while the Blood Knights would hit the front. Wheel the wolves down so they hit the top left corner of the infantry then they get a free wheel to align which would put them down the left side. If the top wolf can make contact then the far right Blood Knight can and you slide the bloodknights over as you are using sliding to maximise.

I also do a little fudging in these cases where if you get that close with a charge (1/8" in this case) then we just assume it has made it. You are talking about the charge missing by 3mm which is so absolutely tiny you probably make that much of an error just moving units in straight lines.

Zeuy
06-10-2009, 16:50
You keep ignoring the fact that the final position of the wolves at the time was indeterminate. A charge at the archers is based on the wolves being out of the way, but it could have been possible for them to actually block the charge. The player thought they were in charge range (as in they would have sufficient room to wheel), and according to the rules could have declared the charge towards the archers. He moves the wolves, then starts to move the bloodknights, only to find they do not have enough movement to wheel, so failed charge. No fudging at all; if the charge is off by 1/8" it is STILL off.

(And you're right, my picture isn't quite right. Sorry, I'm awful with paint. The wolves are supposed to be in the front arc. :) )

Tarian
06-10-2009, 17:16
Psychology
Q. Are partially screened frenzied units allowed to
declare charges? For example, if I have a unit of
Warhounds partially screening a unit of frenzied
Chaos Knights of Khorne are both units allowed to
declare a charge at the same or different enemy
units they can see?
A. If the screening unit is also declaring a charge
(i.e. they intend to get out of the way), then the
frenzied unit behind them can, and indeed must,
declare a charge as well. If the screening unit does
not declare a charge, the frenzied unit behind does
not have to declare a charge, as it wouldn’t be able
to reach the intended target. If the screening unit
doesn’t move far enough to clear the way (because
they failed the charge, or if a Fear test stopped
them in their tracks, and so on), then the frenzied
unit behind them would also fail the charge,
stopped by the screening unit getting in the way.

GW's Official FAQ on the matter.

warlord hack'a
08-10-2009, 12:05
great that it's finally FAQ-ed and indeed the way I played it always, seeing this as the most logical way out.