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Warlord Seven
01-10-2009, 11:29
hey all

this is my first time playing any type of fantasy battle game (but have always been intrested). I looked at the thread posted ontop but it seem pretty dated, and i know some armys have had new books since then and new ones have been realeased. So i just wanted to get a little advice on which army you guys could give me some advice.

I'm really looking for an army that is tactical, now i know most armys require tactics but i mean are not easy to master that proves a challenge to use. I really would like a list that can be balanced (unit wise like a variety of everything, and powerwise no OP or cheesy armys, im looking at you daemons). but i also want one where the lists can vary and i dont feel forced to take specific units in everylist to be semi-competitive (like i always have to have X unit because he can shoot laser beams from his eyes!!) so an army that can have multiple competitive lists. On a minor side note, im artistically challenged, so an army that isnt incredibly difficult to paint would be cool too. I do want an army though that may be a bit better in CC than anything else, I know i said balanced but to me CC is where the game is ment to be played not hiding behind guns, but magic is cool so that is ok. I hope im not being too specific and if I am then just tell me that there is no army that exists like this and I failed :cries:...but seriously I hope that this paragraph can be of some help!

Thank you in advance!

Shiodome
01-10-2009, 11:30
wood elves & empire imo.

both CAN be cheesy if you fancy a change of pace at some point, but for normal play require thought to win have a range of units of which most are equally as viable as other units in the list. for wood elves there is no 'MUST TAKE!' unit, because everything is viable, and the things that are better than everything else still aren't good choices unless you take a list that supports their play style (e.g wardancers and treemen are awesome, but you still wouldn't take them if you wanted an ultra fast mobility list.). I don't know empire as well, but i get the impression that there's a range of choices.

also both can look great on the tabletop, which is important.

but... i know you said you want an army that's a challenge. but if you're new to WHFB, woodelves can be too much of a challenge to start with. :)

Grimstonefire
01-10-2009, 11:51
I would say WoC would be best.

It's possible to build multiple hard and fluffy lists, and has a focus most definately on CC.

In my experience there are not many units at all that you have to have to be competitive with them (except possibly marauder horsemen or hounds).

Shiodome
01-10-2009, 12:22
i 100% disagree with the above. imo WoC are the least tactically interesting army in the game, with no real variety in unit choice, just a range of similar units that 'hit stuff'. they're just a really boring army list.

Falkman
01-10-2009, 12:27
Agree with Shiodome.
Go for Wood Elves or Empire if you want an army that requires good tactics to win with, Shiodome gives good reasons for why both should suit you.

scarletsquig
01-10-2009, 12:28
Nah, WoC are tactical... because movement is so important.

They only have very limited shooting and magic to fall back on (gateway spam lists excepted), so they have to get their movement phase spot on.

Units need to be shielded on the way in, or to mitigate their frenzy, it's not a horde army so you have to watch your flanks.

Easy to paint too.. spray black, drybrush the cloaks and the weapons and you're mostly done... the army will take less time to paint due to a lower number of models, too.

Empire and wood elves definitely lean toward the shooty side of things, which is what the OP wanted to avoid.

The Clairvoyant
01-10-2009, 12:32
Sounds like Tomb Kings to me. Simple to paint, challenging to use, several differing builds.

You have the khalida-led poison army of shootyness, the settra-led army of cavalry and chariots, the army of constructs with ushabti, tomb scorpions and bone giants, or anything in between.

Or as someone else said, empire. Empire have access to every type of infantry and cavalry, can have heroes on monsters, artillery, and if you're that way inclined, a steam tank.
Paint schemes can be kept to simple heraldic designs which look impressive when all the units are together, even if the painting isn't particularly neat.

Shiodome
01-10-2009, 12:44
wood elves aren't a shooting orientated army, they're a close combat army with shooting support. empire can be any army they want, shooting is an option but not the only one. and re: WoC, having less options doesn't make something more tactical for me, it just means you're limited in the tactics available. i don't feel that having to rely on something more heavily makes an army more tactical, it just makes them less flexible.

mrtn
01-10-2009, 13:12
Choose the coolest army.

Condottiere
01-10-2009, 13:38
That would be Chaos Penguins.

Warlord Seven
01-10-2009, 13:40
wow thanks for the quick responses, didnt expect that many all in a short time period!

So it seems the general theory is WoC, WE, Empire, and possibly TK. After taking alook at the models i definetly like the units in the WoC, Empire, and WE. TK not so much. So thats eliminated (I want to like what my army looks like).

When Shiodome said they are WoC are less flexible does that mean that they have less units that are competitive (i.e they have to have unit X, Y, and Z in every list to be competitive cause i dont want that).

Also it looks like all WE lists are the same from what I have seen on the board, most have Treeman, an alter (which i do like so that is cool id proably have one) some dryads GG and then special is WR and WD, with a little bit of variety here and there. Is that the only form of competitive WE list or are there others aswell?

Thank you in advance again!

Shiodome
01-10-2009, 15:53
the main WE list (there are deffinatley more than 1 commonly taken) are:

Forest spirit list - all dryads, treekin, wild riders, treemen.
Sethayla list - all warhawks, eagles, glade riders, some glade guard, minimal characters.
Mixed list - as you described.

the mixed list doesn't have a 'standard' form at all, waywatchers are being taken more and more instead of treemen (they're still good, but no longer the no-brainer choice they were when they were released. frankly they just don't have a place in many WE lists). a lvl4 mage is often taken instead of treeman ancient or 'machine gun' lord. and all of the specials are competitive... any combination works, but also any combination taken has a different playstyle (2 units of wild riders plays entirely differently to 2 units of wardancers, but both are equally good). the only standard thing is at least 2 unit of dryads... because they're just such good core troops.

imo the most competitive list is the setheyla, which is an army entirely of fliers and fast cavalry. they just isolate and massacre one unit at a time and are very tough to pin down until the end game when they combo charge whatever is weakened, and grab all the table quarters. focusing on using range and mobility to stay out of line of site and use cover where possible. really hard list to use though.

with WoC, by less flexible i mean... you do combat. once you've started a WoC list you've got a combat army, and adding new stuff to the army isn't going to change that. with some armies (like empire, high elves, dark elves etc) you can start off with a certain focus (combat for example), but should you want to try something new (like a 'combined arms' force of combat, shooting, artillery, monsters and magic) you can do that by adding a few models without needing to start a new army. with WoC, if you ever want a different focus, well you're gonna have to start a new army.

edit: i am biased though, i play wood elves, and my main opponent is WoC. I take a different list every time, and he takes well... different models, but it's still in all practical ways, the same list. I just know i'd be bored playing WoC, i like having armies where lots of very different units combine to pull of a complex plan. ignore my bias though, some people love the brutal nature of WoC, and the unstoppable nature of their armoure plated behemoths. they find them great fun to play... it's up to you! (wood elves are better though... just saying. ;) the WoC player has yet to win :angel:)

E-Dog
01-10-2009, 15:57
Choose the coolest army.

I'm with mrtn on this one, I think the most important thing when chosing an army is not how it will play, but how it will look to you.

Gaius Marius
01-10-2009, 16:14
Empire. Wood elves are also viable but Empire is the place to be for what you initially described. You can go Cavalry heavy, Infantry heavy, shooty, war machine bananas or nice and blended. Tactics are critical to success on the tournament scene, but importantly you possess a tool for every job. Heavy Cav, Fast Cav, Heavy Infantry, Regular Infantry, Missile troops, some flyers, Artilery that can focus on high toughness and wounds or massed troops, and characters that are viable either for a magic focus or a fighting focus (not both really). ~ Cheers

Sirroelivan
01-10-2009, 16:20
the main WE list (there are deffinatley more than 1 commonly taken) are:

Forest spirit list - all dryads, treekin, wild riders, treemen.
Sethayla list - all warhawks, eagles, glade riders, some glade guard, minimal characters.
Mixed list - as you described.

the mixed list doesn't have a 'standard' form at all, waywatchers are being taken more and more instead of treemen (they're still good, but no longer the no-brainer choice they were when they were released. frankly they just don't have a place in many WE lists). a lvl4 mage is often taken instead of treeman ancient or 'machine gun' lord. and all of the specials are competitive... any combination works, but also any combination taken has a different playstyle (2 units of wild riders plays entirely differently to 2 units of wardancers, but both are equally good). the only standard thing is at least 2 unit of dryads... because they're just such good core troops.

imo the most competitive list is the setheyla, which is an army entirely of fliers and fast cavalry. they just isolate and massacre one unit at a time and are very tough to pin down until the end game when they combo charge whatever is weakened, and grab all the table quarters. focusing on using range and mobility to stay out of line of site and use cover where possible. really hard list to use though.

with WoC, by less flexible i mean... you do combat. once you've started a WoC list you've got a combat army, and adding new stuff to the army isn't going to change that. with some armies (like empire, high elves, dark elves etc) you can start off with a certain focus (combat for example), but should you want to try something new (like a 'combined arms' force of combat, shooting, artillery, monsters and magic) you can do that by adding a few models without needing to start a new army. with WoC, if you ever want a different focus, well you're gonna have to start a new army.

edit: i am biased though, i play wood elves, and my main opponent is WoC. I take a different list every time, and he takes well... different models, but it's still in all practical ways, the same list. I just know i'd be bored playing WoC, i like having armies where lots of very different units combine to pull of a complex plan. ignore my bias though, some people love the brutal nature of WoC, and the unstoppable nature of their armoure plated behemoths. they find them great fun to play... it's up to you! (wood elves are better though... just saying. ;) the WoC player has yet to win :angel:)

The only thing WoC can't really do is go all out shooting, but there's enough diversity in the list as it is.

brawnyman1989
01-10-2009, 16:22
I agree with all of the above, Empire and Wood Elves sound like they would fit your playstyle, but as a WoC player, I thoroughly enjoy my army. Sure it's a little easy to play, "Look enemy, let's crush em," but that isn't so bad, because as mentioned before, you have to get your movement phase spot on, or else, you'll be overrun. And you can have variety in your list.

There's the Troll list, led by Throgg, he makes Trolls core and hits hard.
You could do a Marauder heavy list, or a Warrior heavy list (I usually run Warrior heavy lists)
You could have an all mounted Chaos list, consisting of Marauder horsemen and Chaos Knights.

No one has mentioned the Marks of Chaos yet. With each Mark, your army plays differently and adds more variety/tactics to your army.

Hope this helped and good luck choosing something you like, cause that is the most important part in choosing an army.

Shiodome
01-10-2009, 16:22
hitty infantry, hitty monsters, and hitty cavalry?

spellcasters too of course, but every army in the game has spellcasters.

MarshalFaust
01-10-2009, 16:28
I agree if you like the model range go for empire, they can compete in every phase of the game and are very flexible in how you build your army. they don't have the hardest hitting units in close combat but they are very good with the detachment system on bringing down some of the bigger foes by combat resolution.

Sirroelivan
01-10-2009, 16:35
hitty infantry, hitty monsters, and hitty cavalry?

spellcasters too of course, but every army in the game has spellcasters.

Rather, give an example of an army type that woc can't do. (except for a gunline, or an all skirmisher horde)

Edit: It's not because your opponent doesn't vary his lists that much, that the entire Chaos list is boring because of it.

Red_Duke
01-10-2009, 16:51
Empire is probably a good place to start tbh, as mentioned already it can compete in most phases, its a reasonably good book with lots of flexibility, and also allows you to experience every aspect of the game (even running away!) On another major plus note, almost the entire range has now been done in plastic, which other than the goldswords make it a reasonable army to collect price wise as well.

As much as i love the TK, they don't make for a good starter army, as they have a substantial learning curve, can be expensive to collect due the number of metal figures in the army (most of which are also now direct only, so its difficult to get discounts on them), plus a new book is touted to be released for them next year, so if you did want to to a TK army i'd wait till next year and see what they do to them first, as if they end up like the Vamps they'll be boring as hell. (which will be personally upsetting if they do mess the book up as then i'll be down to Ogres for fun armies to play)

cyberspite
01-10-2009, 17:18
Just go with what you like the look and feel of, most armies have a good degree of diversity for casual play but if you plan on taking them to tournaments then there are specific builds that are more common.

I have no experience with WoC or empire but wood elves are extremely rewarding to play with, also dark elves have a good mix of units and can compete in every phase, they are considered a power army but that doesn't mean you have to take the power builds (asf black guard, double hydra, dragon etc). High elves and lizardmen are also quite flexible and don't forget the soon to be released skaven