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Canis Wolfborn
03-10-2009, 02:58
Just looking at some Warhammer 40,000 quotes and came across a quote in the Necron section that made me wonder:


The Machine is strong. We must purge the weak, hated flesh and replace it with the blessed purity of metal. Only through permanence can we truly triumph, only through the Machine can we find victory. Punish the flesh. Iron in mind and body. Hail the Machine!

They talk about replacing their body with metal like the Necrontyr and they worship/follow the Machine which seems to be the Void Dragon.

What do you think? Do they seem traitorous or just unaware of what they are doing?

Argastes
03-10-2009, 03:07
Uhh, neither? They certainly aren't traitorous, and what they're doing isn't necessarily the same as what the Necrontyr do/did, so it's not like they're doing something "wrong" without being aware of it.

Mánagarmr
03-10-2009, 03:11
Just looking at some Warhammer 40,000 quotes and came across a quote in the Necron section that made me wonder:

They talk about replacing their body with metal like the Necrontyr and they worship/follow the Machine which seems to be the Void Dragon.

What do you think? Do they seem traitorous or just unaware of what they are doing?

I'd say unaware if anything, for there are few chapters that are as loyal as the Iron Hands. They lost arguably the most out of the loyalist chapters during the Heresy.

Praising the machine is no more heretical than the Ad-Mech doing so, and as the Emperor is the one who bound to Void Dragon to inspire the adepts of Mars in the first place, I see little harm in them following the same ideals.

Son of Sanguinius
03-10-2009, 03:11
I could see their dogmatic fanaticism leading them astray. As in after a while, they become so aloof and distrustful (I really hope that's a word) of the Imperium and its allies that they turn to the Omnissiah.

Canis Wolfborn
03-10-2009, 03:12
Why did they put the quote in the Necron codex then? Just reading the quote by itself makes them seem all good, but since it was put into the Necron codex it gave me second thoughts on the matter.

Argastes
03-10-2009, 03:14
To provoke people, stir up speculation and rumors, and so forth. GW loves to throw in unresolved, mysterious little tidbits like that.

EDIT: I'm not denying that they venerate the Machine God, who is apparently actually a C'tan. In immediate terms, that's probably why it is in the Necron codex: Because it relates to a C'tan. Doesn't mean anything with regard to their loyalty.

Son of Sanguinius
03-10-2009, 03:16
How boring would these discussions be without them? :D

Mánagarmr
03-10-2009, 03:17
I mean they put that quote in the Necron codex. Surely there must be a reason behind it.

It could be in relevance to Ferrus Manus, and the "gift" he recieved in the form of living metal fists, similar to, and possibly Necron in origin - depending on what you believe the great metal wyrm truly was.


Ferrus was stolen away by the forces of Chaos just as his brothers, and spent his first years on the planet Medusa.

Medusa was a harsh, unwelcoming planet inhabited by a tough and stoic people. Ferrus would not join these tribes, as many of his brothers did. Rather he would seek out physical challenges, to make himself stronger and more resilient. These tests ended with his battle against Asirnoth, the Great Silver Wyrm, a metallic beast impervious to harm and Ferrus had to drown it in magma to kill. The melted flesh of the wyrm fused into Ferrus' flesh, giving him the true metal hands his Legion would take its name from.

Red Beard
03-10-2009, 03:33
It is there to stir up controversy.

I like that it is in the Necron Codex because in the codex it hints to the Necrons having infiltrated humanity. The fact that this is in the codex could possibly hint at how deep the Necrons/Machine Gods/C'Tan have influenced/infiltrated man and that there story runs much more deeper than what is there in black and white for us to read.

I hope all that made sense...:D

MontytheMighty
03-10-2009, 04:43
nub question, but just how does a C'tan, an energy being that feeds off stars, "inspire" the adepts of mars?

Mánagarmr
03-10-2009, 05:03
nub question, but just how does a C'tan, an energy being that feeds off stars, "inspire" the adepts of mars?

Its "dreams" are influencing the adepts of Mars.


In the book series, The Horus Heresy, a great deal about an entity almost certainly the Void Dragon is revealed, called The Dragon of Mars. The Emperor himself defeated a creature of godlike power who existed on Earth itself centuries ago (what this implies about the Emperor's natural lifespan is uncertain, but Space Marines, his genetic children, do not age normally either) sometime during the 12th century (the text states during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian however, which suggests a date around the 3rd/4th century)3. He travelled to Mars and imprisoned the entity within the Noctis Labyrinth, purposefully not destroying it. The creature is described as having "drunk the heart of stars" and "worshipped as a god", which heavily implies it to be a C'Tan. It had no name of its own, but the Emperor dubbed it "The Dragon of Mars", and bound it there. Once the warp storms began and the Dark Age of Technology ended, the Dragon of Mars sought to claim the red planet by sending out dreams from its imprisonment, teaching the humans there how to build incredibly advanced machines, and in turn, worship those machines. Thus, the Dragon directly created the Mechanicum. This was in fact the Emperor's plan all along: to create a technologically advanced society that would be able to provide the industrial machinery for his great crusade.

MontytheMighty
03-10-2009, 08:13
so the void dragon has dreams of design plans and blueprints...

why a being like a C'tan would have all this technological aptitude is beyond me, but it's not that bad of an idea, at least GW is trying to think of something clever

grissom2006
03-10-2009, 13:04
Well they learnt about technology from the Necrontyr and even inspired the Necrontyr into giving up their bodies for their metal ones.

Urath
03-10-2009, 14:04
The Akashic (sorry, it's been a while) reader supposedly looks into the Void Dragons mind, not the Warp.

Also, it was previously believed that Ferrus Manus killed the Void Dragon. At the time, Necron and C'tan stuff was only just surfacing. Suffice to say, he killed something of likely Necron origin, but not a C'tan.

It's interesting though. In "Iron Hands" by Jonathan Green, aspirants are sent out across the Medusan wastes to find the ruins of a city which seem to be guarded by metal constructs, not of Ad Mech origin...

While that book has a lot of flaws, it's good for atmosphere and it's the only real fluff on the Iron Hands we have.

Lord Damocles
03-10-2009, 19:14
'The Necrons are a fallen race consumed by the technology that once did their bidding. We must take care that in opposing them we do not succomb to the same damnation'.
Apocalypse Reloaded, pg.50

It might be as simple as the Iron Hands being one of the groups which may be susceptible to falling to the 'dangers of technology'.
Although with Ferrus' previous encounter with [probably] a Necron construct, and his aquisition of technological knowledge from a [probably] Necron source give them a closer link than most to the 'Crons.


Also, Mánagarmr is that quote about Mechanicum/Void Dragon from Lexicanum? Because it's... interesting... (in the same way that quite a lot of stuff on Lexicanum is 'interesting').

ryng_sting
03-10-2009, 20:31
It's a summary of the relevant parts from the novel Mechanicum.

Lord Asgul
03-10-2009, 20:34
'The Necrons are a fallen race consumed by the technology that once did their bidding. We must take care that in opposing them we do not succomb to the same damnation'.
Apocalypse Reloaded, pg.50

It might be as simple as the Iron Hands being one of the groups which may be susceptible to falling to the 'dangers of technology'.
Although with Ferrus' previous encounter with [probably] a Necron construct, and his aquisition of technological knowledge from a [probably] Necron source give them a closer link than most to the 'Crons.


Also, Mánagarmr is that quote about Mechanicum/Void Dragon from Lexicanum? Because it's... interesting... (in the same way that quite a lot of stuff on Lexicanum is 'interesting').

It's from HH Mechanicum

Mánagarmr
04-10-2009, 02:59
Also, Mánagarmr is that quote about Mechanicum/Void Dragon from Lexicanum? Because it's... interesting... (in the same way that quite a lot of stuff on Lexicanum is 'interesting').

It's all of the relevant points from the Horus Heresy novel - Mechanicum.

I'd suggest reading the series.

DarkMatter2
04-10-2009, 03:24
I think it is just there to signify the temptation of the Necrons - how even some within the Imperium might view these cold, unfeeling, robotic monstrosities as a sort of "ultimate form of life."

It gives a different perspective on the Necrons when you think of their strength rather than their horribleness.

Vesica
04-10-2009, 03:58
Just looking at some Warhammer 40,000 quotes and came across a quote in the Necron section that made me wonder:



They talk about replacing their body with metal like the Necrontyr and they worship/follow the Machine which seems to be the Void Dragon.

What do you think? Do they seem traitorous or just unaware of what they are doing?

They are heretics who believe that a machine is better than the perfection created by the Emperor and they should be purged before they fall like the Emperors children.

Lord Damocles
04-10-2009, 09:47
It's a summary of the relevant parts from the novel Mechanicum.

It's from HH Mechanicum

It's all of the relevant points from the Horus Heresy novel - Mechanicum.

I'd suggest reading the series.
Yes, I realise that.

I'll try something less subtle...


That summery is full of holes and in places directly contradicts what we're told in Mechanicum.

Mánagarmr
05-10-2009, 06:39
That summery is full of holes and in places directly contradicts what we're told in Mechanicum.

Care to be more clear as to which parts supposedly contradict that summary? You're being far too vague with your criticism.

Lord Damocles
05-10-2009, 11:48
Care to be more clear as to which parts supposedly contradict that summary? You're being far too vague with your criticism.
I'll give it a shot.

(Note that I'm not ranting here, just pointing out that Lexicanum isn't always to be trusted, and nothing found there is as reliable as that derived from the original source(s)).

------------


The Emperor himself defeated a creature of godlike power who existed on Earth itself centuries ago...
Although the vision given to Dahlia by Semyon takes place on Earth, it's by no means certain that any actual conflict between the Emperor and the Dragon - if there was any physical conflict at all - took place in the location, time, or manner described. Semyon states multiple times that the vision is not necessarily accurate, for example:

'It's all the Dragon remembers of it, yes' said Semyon. 'Or at least a version of it's memories. It's hard to tell what's real and what's not sometimes. / What is real and what is fantasy... well, who can tell?'
Earlier in the book (pg.211-215), Dahlia also explains to Caxton & Co. that the tales of dragon slaying, which follow the same format as Semyon's vision, are 'allegorical representations' (ie. not literal).



(what this implies about the Emperor's natural lifespan is uncertain, but Space Marines, his genetic children, do not age normally either)...
While not actually about Mecanicum, it might be worth noting that no question as to the Emperor's lifespan is posed by Mechanicum. The date of the Emperor's birth has been established as being long prior to the potential dates given for his confrontation with the Dragon. For example:

Only much later would he [the Emperor] identify the time of his birth as the eighth millenium BC or the place as Central Anatolia.



sometime during the 12th century (the text states during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian however, which suggests a date around the 3rd/4th century)3...
The uncertainty over the date (highlighted by Semyon himself on pg.359) can easily be explained away. The story of St. George and the Dragon is first recorded in the 12th century, and is set during Diocletian's reign (source (http://faculty.smu.edu/bwheeler/Ency/St_George.html)).
Thus both are correct in a way...



He travelled to Mars and imprisoned the entity within the Noctis Labyrinth...
According to Semyon. Who we've already established is hardly the most reliable source...
The practical implications of such a venture alone would suggest that this is unlikely.



purposefully not destroying it...
The Emperor - by his own admission (in Semyon's vision at least) - was unable to destroy the Dragon:

'The Dragon is defeated!' cried the Warrior. 'But it is beyond even my power to destroy, so I shall drag it in fetters from this place and bind it deep in the darkness, where it will remain until the end of all things'.



It had no name of its own, but the Emperor dubbed it "The Dragon of Mars", and bound it there...
I can find no mention of the Emperor calling the Dragon anything other than simply 'the Dragon' (pg.362). The only time it is refered to as the 'Dragon of Mars' is by Jonas while he's getting burned up on the Akashic Reader (pg.174).



Once the warp storms began and the Dark Age of Technology ended, the Dragon of Mars sought to claim the red planet by sending out dreams from its imprisonment, teaching the humans there how to build incredibly advanced machines, and in turn, worship those machines. Thus, the Dragon directly created the Mechanicum...
None of this is described. We're told (by Semyon again) that '...from the Dragon's dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars' (pg.363).
In fact, the little information we're given in Codex: Necrons directly contradicts this chronolgy:

They [the most ancient and zealously guarded records of the Adeptus Mechanicus] make veiled reference to unspeakable technology won in the Golden Age of Technology, and how it brought about mankind's eventual downfall in the Age of Strife.

Mojaco
05-10-2009, 12:08
That's one of the best posts I've seen in a while, with sources and everything.

Great discussion here. Personally I think the Iron Hands are no more heretics than the Adaptus Mechanicus; loyal, but they might be 'delving too deep' so to speak. It's a bit similar to what happened to the thousand sons, who were also perfectly loyal. Use of the warp does not need to be dangerous, but at some point you're going too far and mess with things you don't fully understand.

Why is it Iron Hands if Ferrus defeated a silver wurm?

fantomex
05-10-2009, 18:27
Iron Hands sounds infinitely cooler than Silver Hands, which is still much better than Funny-Living-Metal Hands..

Anyway, the Iron Hands are loyal, much in the same way as the Death Korps of Kreig or the Vostroyans, they are anti-weakness, pro-killing enemies!

Heck, do any other chapters execute 1/3 of a population that allowed itself to be conquered by Chaos, to teach them a lesson?
Far and wide, other loyal Imperial groups have committed far worse genocides against Imperial subjects than this..
The scions of Ferrus Manus promote real strength! None of this sissy Guilliman rubbish for us!

Along a similar line, can anybody name me the primarchs/legions that disagreed with the Codex Astartes?

Given that the Space Wolves and Iron Hands were two of the legions that refused it, and since the wolves are such a numerous still-legion, it stands to reason that the Iron Hands would number in the many thousands..
After all, the Space Wolves lost a great deal on Prospero, and the Iron Hands the same on Isstvan..

If anything, an event such as that would show how Imperium-loyal they are, what with their utter hatred for Chaos and weakness, and to see their best mates, the beloved children of the Emperor, go like that..

Mánagarmr
05-10-2009, 18:44
Although the vision given to Dahlia by Semyon takes place on Earth, it's by no means certain that any actual conflict between the Emperor and the Dragon - if there was any physical conflict at all - took place in the location, time, or manner described. Semyon states multiple times that the vision is not necessarily accurate, for example:

Earlier in the book (pg.211-215), Dahlia also explains to Caxton & Co. that the tales of dragon slaying, which follow the same format as Semyon's vision, are 'allegorical representations' (ie. not literal).

Regardless, it's the memory as recalled by the Dragon itself. It's not some dusty tome on the floor they discover telling them this, it's not a cave drawing they translate incorrectly, it's as the Dragon recalls it happening - he could be remembering it wrong, yes, but it could be argued that he's recalling it exactly as it happened.


According to Semyon. Who we've already established is hardly the most reliable source...
The practical implications of such a venture alone would suggest that this is unlikely.

Unlikely.. in Warhammer 40K. Wait, what? How can we fairly try to place a limit on the abilities of the Emperor?

I don't think it's fair by any means to attempt to use realism as a yard-stick for any fluff debate.

We're discussing an immortal human being, with god like strength, fighting a living-metal dragon and it's all well and good, but then the Emperor traverses the galaxy and it's suddenly raising your eyebrow.


The Emperor - by his own admission (in Semyon's vision at least) - was unable to destroy the Dragon:

Why can the visions be used for your argument, but they're not proper sources for mine?

Even if we simply say that's true, it doesn't change the fact that he set about an elaborate plan to benefit his cause. The book tells us this.

If anything, I think it shows even more-so that the Emperor had to find a way to deal with the Dragon outside conventional means, using the idea he couldn't kill the Dragon.


I can find no mention of the Emperor calling the Dragon anything other than simply 'the Dragon' (pg.362). The only time it is refered to as the 'Dragon of Mars' is by Jonas while he's getting burned up on the Akashic Reader (pg.174).

The Akashic Reader, as we're told, allows the person using the machine to know everything, I'd say his claim was pretty well informed.

While I appreciate your stance on the Lexicanums summary, and I'm well aware that it is hardly an "end all, be all" source, I think the majority of your post can be called nit-picking.

Wolfblade670
06-10-2009, 01:26
Perhaps the Hands are not so much anti-human as they are trans-human. Perhaps they view the Machine not so much as a diety, but rather as they next step for the entirety of the human race. To abandon fragile flesh so easily swayed by Chaos (as they witnessed during the Heresy). Perhaps their ultimate desire is to see all of Humanity embrace the Machine and ascend to the next level of evolution. The idea of the Hands crusading in the name of this ideal (it fits with Fantomex's idea of a still active legion, similar to the massive amount of Black Templars crusading across the galaxy), and setting up transhumanistic cults on the worlds they occupy could provide an interesting development for the chapter's fluff. The =I= could quite possibly be dodged as the Hands are so remote and they may very well have the AdMech covering their butts.

Lord Damocles
06-10-2009, 10:14
Regardless, it's the memory as recalled by the Dragon itself. It's not some dusty tome on the floor they discover telling them this, it's not a cave drawing they translate incorrectly, it's as the Dragon recalls it happening - he could be remembering it wrong, yes, but it could be argued that he's recalling it exactly as it happened.
The very fact that you accept that the Dragon's memories as presented to Dahlia by Semyon may not be accurate rubbishes the claim - presented as fact - by Lexicanum that, 'The Emperor himself defeated a creature of godlike power who existed on Earth itself centuries ago...'
If there is a question as to the accuracy of something, then it can't be presented as a fact.

Note, I'm not saying that the Emperor vs. Dragon fight didn't unfold exactly as it is presented in Semyon's vision. Maybe it did. But the very fact that we (and that even the character who knows the most about the events in the narrative) can't be sure that this is what happened means that we just can't know that.



Unlikely.. in Warhammer 40K. Wait, what? How can we fairly try to place a limit on the abilities of the Emperor?

I don't think it's fair by any means to attempt to use realism as a yard-stick for any fluff debate.

We're discussing an immortal human being, with god like strength, fighting a living-metal dragon and it's all well and good, but then the Emperor traverses the galaxy and it's suddenly raising your eyebrow.
Again, maybe the Emperor did subdue the Dragon (an immortal Star God from the dawn of time who has destroyed stars and slaughtered races) by tying his banner around it's neck, flew to Mars in the 3rd/12th century AD, didn't need to breath, carved a tomb, and bound the Dragon there before flying back to Earth. But we can't say for sure (as Lexicanum implies) that this is actually what happend - beacuse we're simply not told.



Why can the visions be used for your argument, but they're not proper sources for mine?
I wouldn't say that Semyon's vision supports either of our stances more than the other, but it can't be claimed (as Lexicanum appears to do) that the duel between the Emperor and the Dragon as shown in Semyon's vision is fact, but the Emperors admission that he is unable to destroy the Dragon - in the same vision - is somehow to be disregarded.
Either the vision is reliable and thus the Emperor couldn't destroy the Dragon (making Lexicanum wrong)
OR
The vision is unreliable, and the duel cannot be presented as fact (maing Lexicanum - if not wrong - deeply flawed).



Even if we simply say that's true, it doesn't change the fact that he set about an elaborate plan to benefit his cause. The book tells us this.

If anything, I think it shows even more-so that the Emperor had to find a way to deal with the Dragon outside conventional means, using the idea he couldn't kill the Dragon.
That the Emperor had a cunning plan isn't in doubt. But Lexicanum's point that the Emperor had a plan being correct doesn't make the claim that the Emperor purposefully refrained from destroying the Dragon as part of this plan any less incorrect.

(Maybe the Emperor in fact could have destroyed the Dragon, but was telling fibs - although this brings us back to the reliability of the vision as above).



The Akashic Reader, as we're told, allows the person using the machine to know everything, I'd say his claim was pretty well informed.
Sure, Jonas' claim that the Dragon is called the 'Dragon of Mars' might be well informed.
But Lexicanum doesn't say, 'Jonas dubbed it "The Dragon of Mars"' - it says, 'the Emperor dubbed it "The Dragon of Mars"'. Which he doesn't; and thus Lexicaum is incorrect.



While I appreciate your stance on the Lexicanums summary, and I'm well aware that it is hardly an "end all, be all" source, I think the majority of your post can be called nit-picking.
Oh, I agree. It might well be described as nit-picking.

But unless such minor innaccuracies are confronted and addressed, they become accepted as 'fact' - and this just leads to more problems down the line.
:)


Anyway... back to the Iron hands!

Icarus
08-10-2009, 03:57
In terms of loyalty, I don't think the Iron Hands are normally questionable. I would see them as one of those chapters which is loyal to the Imperium as an ideal, but isn't too fussed about letting millions of Imperial civilians die in order to achieve their objectives (putting them on the other side of the spectrum from chapters like the Space Wolves).

However, I do feel they have a disgruntled element to them. They were one of the hardest hit legions in the Horus Heresy and never really recovered to their full potential. Also their emphasis on resilience and machines may make some feel distant from the teachings of the Imperium and feel much closer to the cult of the Machine God. In the event of the Void Dragon waking up and escaping, corrupting a chunk of the AdMech with it, well then maybe we'd see some Iron hands fighting alongside their new living god.

Personally I've always like the idea of it as a themed army. Use WH or DH allies to represent an AdMech Explorator force which has delved too far into using reclaimed Necron technology. Maybe they have a squad of rebel Iron Hands alongside them, their power armour now enhanced with glowing green Necron tech. :D