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Lord Asgul
03-10-2009, 20:08
I was just wondering how much everyone knows about the 2 unknown Legions and the 2 Primarch. All I know is that they were found and at some point before the heresy SOMETHING happened to them. I would love to hear people's theories about what happened and what the 2 primarchs specialised in...

Lord Damocles
03-10-2009, 20:10
Once upon a time Rubinek and Sigmar started reading about the missing Legions on Warseer. Their heads asploded.
End.


These should keep you busy:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1627042

wilsongrahams
04-10-2009, 09:52
It's a pretty common theory that Sigmar is a Primarch as a few years back GW were almost linking the two and saying that but they have since moved away and denied such implications. The problem now is that the Horus Heresy books are at odds with each other, some mentioning they were lost and never achieved glories etc, and others that statues stand in the halls of them. Some remember all their brothers, some never mention them. Officila status is that records were deleted. Not that they never existed, and surely their legions would still exist in part as the legions existed before the primarchs were found again. Maybe there were legions that never got their primarch. I have always liked to think that the Grey Knights could be formed from one of these as they were formed after the Heresy and have no primarch yet are astartes. Otherwise I don't see how a marine can be created without a primarch's geneseed as all the fluff states that the primarch was used to create the geneseed.

Born Again
04-10-2009, 11:13
All we really know for sure is that ALL the primarchs were found, reunited with their legions, and were involved in the Great Crusade in some way. It is stated multiple times throughout multiple canon sources. From there, something happened and records were deleted. Considering that even the Traitor Legions still have records remaining, it must have been something pretty major.

The whole thing about WH40K and WHFB being linked is a discussion that can still be valid if you so wish, but Sigmar is certainly not a Primarch. As far as I'm aware he is recorded as being born to regular human parents like any other child, whereas all the other primarchs are stated as being found on their adopted home planets.

Ninjaguiden
04-10-2009, 13:29
I sort of like the Rise of The Tau solution: pariah legions.

Thena gain it follows in the line that everything in the galaxy is somehow connected to the Old Ones and the C'tan.

Condottiere
04-10-2009, 14:17
Nobody knows what actually happened to the two Legions, probably not even the ones that came up with the concept. It will probably remain one of those unresolved mysteries.

Dexter099
04-10-2009, 15:06
Dirty answered this in a WD a while ago.

The 1st missing Legion is the Praetorian Guard.
The 2nd one is a group of SMs that guard Mars.

Vesica
04-10-2009, 15:39
Dirty answered this in a WD a while ago.

The 1st missing Legion is the Praetorian Guard.
The 2nd one is a group of SMs that guard Mars.

Thought the Praetorians came from the Emperor and not a Primarch?

grissom2006
04-10-2009, 15:59
Nobody knows what actually happened to the two Legions, probably not even the ones that came up with the concept. It will probably remain one of those unresolved mysteries.

You have no idea how close to the mark you are ;)

pookie
04-10-2009, 16:05
oh its must be sunday....

wonder what might have happened if a search was tried....

grissom2006
04-10-2009, 16:23
oh its must be sunday....

wonder what might have happened if a search was tried....

I dread to think how many results on this we'd find all i know is i've been in about 12 of them to date in the last few months.:p

djinn8
04-10-2009, 16:30
My personal theory is that when the two missing Primarchs were found, the warp had mutated them to such a degree that they couldn't be considered human any more. Knowing that their mutation would be bad publicity for his empire, showing that his perfect warriors were not infact flawed and succeptable to corruption, the Emperor had them both stricken from the records and cancled the commisions for their sculptures leaving two empty plinths in the Imperial Palace.

I don't know what would have happened to the two legions after that. Perhaps one of them became The Legion of the Damned. But untill GW publishes more detain on them we'll never know, and as Condottiere said the writers probably don't know either.

ED: One thing that does puzzle me is why did the Emperor not have the plinths destroyed and re-arrange the legions numbers to totally strike the two from the record. It seems a bit of a half assed cover up to me.

grissom2006
04-10-2009, 16:34
I don't know what would have happened to the two legions after that. Perhaps one of them became The Legion of the Damned. But untill GW publishes more detain on them we'll never know, and as Condottiere said the writers probably don't know either.

We have evidence of who the LOTD are though.

gunners
04-10-2009, 18:53
I think.... Wait a minute, i posted something similar at a earlier point.. Anyone else seen a thread with a vague similarity??:D:D

Lisiecki
04-10-2009, 18:55
I don't know what would have happened to the two legions after that. Perhaps one of them became The Legion of the Damned. But untill GW publishes more detain on them we'll never know, and as Condottiere said the writers probably don't know either.

The Fire Hawks were a first founding?

starlight
04-10-2009, 19:01
The reason there are still records of the Traitor Legions and not of the *missing* Legions is that once all evidence of the Traitor Legions has been found, it will be eradicated...so says GW in past canon. Until the last Traitor is killed and all memory expunged, the records must be kept, however as soon as the last victory is achieved over each Traitor Legion, the records of each will be expunged, much like the old Soviet Union used to erase people from photos as they *disappeared*...

The two *missing* Legions were eradicated after something particularly nasty, thus no records remain...


And then there's the fact that GW wanted to throw in a bit of mystery a la the so called *lost* Roman Legions. :p

Vesica
05-10-2009, 02:33
oh its must be sunday....

wonder what might have happened if a search was tried....

Blessed is the mind to weak for search :D

How do we know they ever really existed? the only proof we have is the very suspect Imperial records, and a chaos controlled dream Horus had

Neither of which would i take without half a pint of salt.

Paraelix
05-10-2009, 05:49
If they'd been found and done something terrible (as some have suggested) and records were deleted as a result, then the Horus Heresy wouldn't have been as big a surprise as it was. The Emp would have already taken measures to protect himself...

As it is, he didn't. Because nothing happened to make him believe his servants would ever rise against him.

starlight
05-10-2009, 05:52
Nothing says that *something terrible* was them rising against him...maybe they failed horribly and it was seen as better to expunge the records of failure and move on...?

JHZ
05-10-2009, 19:53
If I'm not mistaken, didn't one HH novel feature Dorn or someone looking at the statues of the two missing primarchs and mentioning or thinking something about how they've done something very wrong.

My theory involves cowboy hats and a mountain.


How do we know they ever really existed? the only proof we have is the very suspect Imperial records, and a chaos controlled dream Horus had
Because HH novels say all primarchs were found and also the bit I just mentioned above. Also, the theory is that the number 11 (XI) capsule Horus saw in his vision was somehow distorted, a mirror image, and was in fact IX, or 9. 9, as in the Blood Angels legion. And now what ever happened to their primarch...

We do know that none fell to Chaos with Horus, since only 9 legions joined his ranks. Maybe they fell before, at different times and were erased from record. Horus, however, started a war that shaped the world, and his legions lived on to tell the tail and continue to threaten the Imperium, so you couldn't just wipe them off the record.

Lusall
05-10-2009, 22:20
These legions will never ever -ever- be discovered in game canon. The reason? Becasue there has to be mysteries for people to use for their own ends.

I, personally...say one of the lost Legions is a group of my own creation. I've based them off the Fremen (from Dune). But that doesn't make them Canon. That makes them apart of -my- 40K experience. Nuff said. That's how it goes.
Make your own legion and that is the truth.

Also, try the search engine...this question has been asked a million times.

pookie
06-10-2009, 09:20
We do know that none fell to Chaos with Horus, since only 9 legions joined his ranks. Maybe they fell before, at different times and were erased from record. Horus, however, started a war that shaped the world, and his legions lived on to tell the tail and continue to threaten the Imperium, so you couldn't just wipe them off the record.

Depends where you get that info from, ive read, that its between 9 and 11 and also upto half the Legions turned traitor....

wilsongrahams
06-10-2009, 10:27
Same sources also state that it was half of the REMAINING legions and that it was nine against nine - also leading you to believe that the other two were deleted before or at the latest during the heresy and that both sides knew about them being deleted.

I'd personally say it was most likely they were lost during the Great Crusade... they probably had a woman read the map and got arrested for being outside our galaxy...

Urath
06-10-2009, 11:40
Dirty answered this in a WD a while ago.

The 1st missing Legion is the Praetorian Guard.
The 2nd one is a group of SMs that guard Mars.

lol wut? :confused:

Condottiere
06-10-2009, 16:47
Perhaps one Legion was lost, and the other became damned.

Simon Sez
06-10-2009, 17:28
According to Lexicanum all 20 Primarchs survived their travel through the Warp and life on their adopted homeworlds, were recovered by the Emperor and given their Legions at some point during the Great Crusade (which commenced some 200 years before 012.M31)

They are never spoken of as being dead;
'plinths II and XI "...had been vacant for a long time. No-one ever spoke of those two absent brothers [and] their separate tragedies"'

'Dorn muses to Malcador the Sigillite on the loyalist support of two legions, possibly the two unknown legions, during the Heresy. Malcador quells the Primarch's thoughts, stating that "They are lost to us forever."'

Parts in bold show evidence of their continued existence.

I like to think that at least one, perhaps both, of them chafed at being in the shadow of his father and sought his own worlds to conquer. All the Primarchs seemed to show some sort of adolescent tendancies and followed ideas of parent/child relationships; the headstrong teen leaving home young and hitting the road isn't one of them though.

The other option, which doesn't gel as well with the removal of the attached Legion, is that the Primarch perished while embroiled in the trials almost every Primarch engaged with the Emperor before accepting him. Perhaps deletion and dispersal of the Legion was an act of grief performed by the Emperor.

Fobster
06-10-2009, 20:28
I always thought they were based of the 16 and 17 legions that varus lost in the tuetonburg forest. There after the numbers were never used again.

Lusall
06-10-2009, 20:35
I always thought they were based of the 16 and 17 legions that varus lost in the tuetonburg forest. There after the numbers were never used again.


Well there were actually three legions lost in Teutoburg Forest. But the fluff seems to suggest that they weren't merely destroyed. They were "lost" through some other means.

Condottiere
07-10-2009, 11:24
There's also Crassus's failed Parthian venture, where a number of Eagles were captured.

Logarithm Udgaur
08-10-2009, 07:27
My theory involves cowboy hats and a mountain.

Best theory yet.

Neverr3st
08-10-2009, 09:38
It went something like this i think

fluffwriter 1: So we each came up with 10 legions, let me see yours.
fluffwriter 2: here they are, hope you like them
fluffwriter 1: [looks at the legions, stops at legion 19) Whats this, squats!??
fluffwriter 2: Yeah, isn't that cool, tiny uber soldiers.
fluffwriter 1: No it is not cool. [looks at legion 20] What the.... , Chuck Norris!??
fluffwriter 2: A legion in his own right.
fluffwriter 1: These are not usable, and we don't have time to create to more legions,
the deadline is in 2 minutes.
fluffwriter 2: Why can't they be used, its as realistic as the rest of the warhammer fluff
fluffwriter 1: We will say that some scribe erased all records of those two legions
cause his pet grox ate all the files.
fluffwriter 2: Sounds even better, lets do what you said.

Hrw-Amen
08-10-2009, 10:45
I like the idea that the Primarchs ere found but that they refused to join the Emperor, or maybe did not believe him that they were who he said they were. If they had developed / been found or whatever on reasonably 'modern' technologically advanced orlds then they may have resisted. Then the Emporer sent in their own legion to try and win them over, but as both sides were equally matched they mutually killed each other off. Thereby, both missing primarchs were found, both primarchs and legions took part in the crusade, but both were destroyed by each other and as a result of the huge disapointment etc, the records were deleted.

What do you think? It is just speculation, like has been said, we will probably never know and no doubt GW don't know either, but there you go.

Karhedron
08-10-2009, 14:30
As I see it there are 3 possible broad categories as to possible fates for missing legions.

1) Tragic loss. The Legions and their Primarchs were somehow destroyed before the heresy. Anything from enemy action, lost in the warp or a catastropic geneseed failure (the fluff has stated that a failure of either the progenoid implants or the black carapace effectively signals the end of a Chapter/Legion).

2) Rebelled. Either before or during the Heresy they rebelled. Given that the other traitor legions are still recorded we might assume they were utterly destroyed and could thus be expunged from history without contradiction.

3) Alive but hidden. The Legions still exist and the removal of the records was a security measure. This is the most ambiguous option. If they still exist they must be doing something pretty important to have taken no part in the HH (assuming Dorn's musings are accurate). Maybe they were involved in the creation of the Custodes. Maybe their mission was to take the Great Crusade beyond the reach of the Astronomicon. In theory they could have gone out of reach of contact and thus could not be recalled to help in the HH. Perhaps they are out in the Halo stars or some other far-flung region unaware of what has gone on at home.

Such speculation is harmless fun. But we all know GW simply based this piece of fluff on a bit of Roman Legionary history. They scatter potential plot-hooks throughout their work and sometimes pick these up for later use.

I cannot see them ever truly answering the question though, if only because it would spoil their fun in reading pages of increasingly rabid fanboy speculation like mine. :D

Condottiere
08-10-2009, 14:42
The Traitor Legions should know, though getting an answer from them might not be worth it.

pookie
08-10-2009, 14:43
The Traitor Legions should know, though getting an answer from them might not be worth it.

or more than likely truethful.

starlight
08-10-2009, 22:12
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