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madd0ct0r
03-10-2009, 23:57
silly question in a way, we know they have no concept of the warp.

BUT.

The Nightbringer has 'imprinted' itself as the image of death in a dozen races

The Outsider drives those around him into maddness

The Dragon, though sleeping, drags people into his dreamland behind him.

The Liar? pah.


My point being the Ctan have shown evidence of psychic ability. Is there any known mechanisim for them to do this by?

Nezmith
04-10-2009, 00:06
C'tan abilities look like magic/psychic powers to our eyes, only because we cannot understand how they control the very fabric of the universe.

If an Eldar Farseer wanted to frighten a human from a distance, he would channel the power of the warp into an attack of extreme emotion upon the human, which the human would perceive as 'fear' and flee.

If the Nightbringer wanted to frighten a human from a distance, he would use his power over the Materium to change the very chemicals that run through the human's brain, controlling the emotions. He would overstimulate the human's brain with the chemical which causes a panic attack, and the human would flee.

C'tan have no warp presence. They are the natural world, personified into a form which could only be described as "magic."

Lord Malice
04-10-2009, 00:13
The C'tan have no psychic ability at all. They operate purely in the physical world and I imagine that their effect on living beings is similar to any environmental effect. What I mean is, the same way an animal adapts its colour to suit its environment through evolution, the C'tan have tinkered with living beings in the same way, literally in humans with the Pariah gene but fear of death can be seen the same way, it isn't so much that humans say, fear death, they fear the Nightbringer as the personification of death as dicated by DNA; purely speculative reasoning you understand.

Also, the C'tan do have a concept of the warp it's just anathema to them and in all liklihood they have no soul at all (and hence no ability to tap the warp for psychic power). They probably still have a warp reflection but in the same way as any inanimate object will although they cannot be corrupted by the warp, it'd just damage or even kill them if they were exposed to it.

JHZ
04-10-2009, 00:20
C'Tan are totally, 100% physical creatures. And by that I mean they're of this world, the physical real space realm, not of the Warp.

How hard is it to drive people mad? I mean, imagine you have the power to control the very fabric of space. People like us are only 4 dimensional beings. Now open their eyes to the full wonder of a 10 dimentional universe. I've read about it and even the dumbed down version made my brain quit, clear its desk and drive off.

Imprinting is not that hard. Imagine it more like a genetical memory, like how fire scares animals, etc. The whole skeleton army and image of the grim reaper is a very strong image. We all associate it in some way to death. Remember in Babylon 5 where every race identifies the Vorlons as some mythical being from their cultures, we humans seeing them as angels.

As for all the other stuff, we have to remember that the mind is not the soul and the soul is not the mind. You can drop acid without it having some weirding Warp powers. It just stimulates your brain and your perception of the world. Nothing magical there. Now imagine a C'Tan could do it by simply controlling the fabric of space, the fabric of space in question being situated inside your skull. He can enter your dreams, make you see stuff, etc.

MontytheMighty
04-10-2009, 05:30
I thought the C'tan beings of purely physical energy with no connection to the energies of the warp

Lord Damocles
04-10-2009, 10:03
...the forces of the Empyrean were anathema to them [C'tan]
Codex: Necrons, pg.26

The C'tan wield the primal energies of creation. Their power is such that they can defy natural laws and alter the fabric of reality itself
Codex: Necrons, pg.27


So no.

Dexter099
04-10-2009, 15:08
To fight the Old Ones, the C'tan had to create Null Fields inside each of their fortresses so that the Old Ones couldn't just massacre them when they weren't looking.

grissom2006
04-10-2009, 15:18
Hence why they are said to of meddled with other races to create Nulls they intend to get rid of that to which they have no other weapon or defence against.

LordLucan
04-10-2009, 19:37
C'tan are psychic, and do have psychic powers. However, they are not psykers/sorcerors/warp energy manipulators. Their psychic powers come from somewhere... else. We know C'tan have mastery of the physical realm, but we do not know how they have such control. The C'tan have access to multiple other dimensions, so that might explain it somewhat...

Dexter099
04-10-2009, 20:35
No, the Ctan are just in the physical realm. They have accomplished everything through extremely advanced science.

Poseidal
04-10-2009, 20:54
...the forces of the Empyrean were anathema to them [C'tan]
Codex: Necrons, pg.26

The C'tan wield the primal energies of creation. Their power is such that they can defy natural laws and alter the fabric of reality itself
Codex: Necrons, pg.27


So no.

Pretty conclusive. To add, psychic powers in the 40k universe are intrinsically linked to the Warp.

DURENDIN
04-10-2009, 21:28
Consider that the C'tan are the only race in 40K to have true FTL space drive? Taking that into the discussion and them having a technology that can transmit thought into the minds of others isn't a huge leap in logic.

Lord Damocles
04-10-2009, 21:35
It might be worth noting at this point that the C'tans' funky abilities are never attributed to any technologies. They're just things which they can do; in much the same way that a psyker's abilities are not dependant on technology (although obviously, the C'tan don't rely on the warp for their powers*).


*Although this doesn't mean that they don't understand the warp necessarily. In fact the information available would suggest the opposite.

madd0ct0r
04-10-2009, 22:53
[

The C'tan wield the primal energies of creation. Their power is such that they can defy natural laws and alter the fabric of reality itself
Codex: Necrons, pg.27

So no.


Ah - They have a get out of reality free card?

Does this suggest they are, in their native state, partially outside time too?

Sekhmet
05-10-2009, 04:21
Ah - They have a get out of reality free card?

Does this suggest they are, in their native state, partially outside time too?
Not necessarily outside of time, but they can manipulate it.

But basically they manipulate reality like a painter creates art. They do basically whatever they want.


It might be worth noting at this point that the C'tans' funky abilities are never attributed to any technologies. They're just things which they can do; in much the same way that a psyker's abilities are not dependant on technology (although obviously, the C'tan don't rely on the warp for their powers*).


*Although this doesn't mean that they don't understand the warp necessarily. In fact the information available would suggest the opposite.
They probably know more about the warp than anyone else barring the old ones and the chaos gods.

Karhedron
05-10-2009, 12:20
They probably know more about the warp than anyone else barring the old ones and the chaos gods.

Probably true, although for them it is a case of "know thine enemy".

Xisor
05-10-2009, 12:32
I think the safe answer is "Yes, they're psychic but not warp-psychic". They a degree of ESP, telekinesis, etheric power and so forth, but it's not warpy stuff. It's not channeling the warp, it's...reality. They're super-beings, but not beings from beyond, if you see the distinction.

In this manner 'Superman' could be said to have psychic powers (but not Batman) yet neither of them are tapping into another realm of power, and neither are they funnelling 'magicks', despite how awesome they are.

That the 'warp is anathema' to the C'tan is an odd statement. It isn't to say tht the warp is unusually potent against them, but that the C'tan are so powerful that the sheer alienness of the warp is one of the few things which is effective against them. In this manner, it wouldn't surprise me to suppose that the C'tan themselves are possessed of souls (of a kind), that they possess warp-reflections and so forth, but rather it is the case that, like the Tau, these 'reflections' are not at all like that of the Eldar or Humans. Rather, their 'reflection' is more like that of a tree, or a planet, or a star.

They aren't 'anti-warp' in the same way as matter is to anti-matter, rather they are simply very real, so the warp bypasses all their other cool powers and is just as effective against them as it is at unravelling the very structure of a rock or a tree or a dull/non-psychic human.

That said, it is also possible that the C'tan themselves are the (retroactive) original inspiration for the pariah effect. Unlikely, I suspect, but another way the GW folks might take the discussion.

Memnos
05-10-2009, 12:37
Point by point:

The Nightbringer killed a whole wackload of psychic people. Hordes. Enough that the psychics imprinted his imagery in their own race. Or you can believe in ancestral memory and jungian imprinting. Either way: Not psychic.

The Outsider: May ooze LSD. LSD is not psychic and makes people crazy. Still doesn't need to be psychic. Also, could you quote source? I don't remember reading this.

Dragging people in to his dreamland: I'm not familiar with this. Can you quote source? Where did you read this?


silly question in a way, we know they have no concept of the warp.

BUT.

The Nightbringer has 'imprinted' itself as the image of death in a dozen races

The Outsider drives those around him into maddness

The Dragon, though sleeping, drags people into his dreamland behind him.

The Liar? pah.


My point being the Ctan have shown evidence of psychic ability. Is there any known mechanisim for them to do this by?

LordLucan
05-10-2009, 13:43
No, the Ctan are just in the physical realm.

The physical realm, and multiple other dimensions as well according to apocalypse...


They have accomplished everything through extremely advanced science.

Yes? Who was arguing otherwise? C'tan having psychic ability doesn't mean the method they use to attain said powers has to be warp-based. Who's to say advanced science can't make them psychic somehow?

LordLucan
05-10-2009, 13:46
Point by point:

The Nightbringer killed a whole wackload of psychic people. Hordes. Enough that the psychics imprinted his imagery in their own race. Or you can believe in ancestral memory and jungian imprinting. Either way: Not psychic.



Or, we can believe that the C'tan are psychic, but aren't psykers.

sycopat
05-10-2009, 15:20
Any sufficiently advanced organism etcetra.

The C'tan are basically greater daemons, but of the material realm. (Think about it, they are made of energy and seemingly have power to manipulate their environment. Also we know from creatures like the enslavers that not all warp creatures are born from the nightmares of mortals. I now the comparison isn't perfect, it's not meant to be, but it is pretty close) They aren't "psychic" because they don't draw power from the warp, but then what else can you call a seemingly innate ability to manipulate the laws of reality?

I could conjecture that, imo, it is likely that the C'tan have an innate ability to manipulate atomic forces, and from there they can work up to affecting biology, and seemingly doing the many impossible things they do. This would both allow for their seemingly supernatural abilities and the fact that the warp is anathema to them (As the warp disrupts the natural laws which such an innate ability would implicitly rely on, the warp can bypass their defenses with ease (based as they are on physical laws which don't apply to it) and render them effectively powerless in warp/realspace interfaces such as warpstorms, the maelstrom, or the eye. They aren't psychic, or supernatural, they are rather entirely natural in a way other sentient creatures (including the tau) are not.

But that would only be my interpretation of something that has been left open to interpretation.

Mánagarmr
06-10-2009, 02:47
I think that was a solid interpretation, sycopat. It's definitely how I view the C'tan.

Memnos
16-10-2009, 11:15
I'd say Sycopat is correct.

Psychic powers in the 40K universe occur because of the Warp. The warp is anathema to the C'tan.

C'tan are not psykers.

TheSmilingGoat
16-10-2009, 14:33
Sycopat is pretty much right. the C'tan are beings of pure energy in the material world, the chaos god's are beings of pure energy in the imaterial world (the warp). both can manipulate reality but in different ways, the c'tan manipulate it at its core components the chaos gods (and psykers) bypass natural laws and manipulate it with warp energy, both archive similar results but do it in very different ways, it has nothing to do with advanced technology's, the c'tan are the real world equals of the warp gods