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Wolf 11x
04-10-2009, 02:35
Thread title says it all.

How do you feel about Dragons (and the Star Dragon in particular)?

Do you feel that knowing your opponent is going to field a Dragon makes things better?

Is tailoring necessary?

CraftworldsRus
04-10-2009, 02:39
I don't mind Dragons, I really don't see the huge threat to be honest. Most often when I see a Dragon on the table, I feel a surge of "Easy Points Joy". I have tried Dragons myself, and had them thrown at me, and in anything under 3000, I'm not worried, and at 3k, I'll have enough hammer units, or a Dragon of my own if I'm feeling adventurous.

w3rm
04-10-2009, 02:53
Nothing 3 str 7 rerollable hits from a herald of khorne cant handle!

AlmightyNocturnus
04-10-2009, 03:07
Personally, I hate the Star Dragon. I know, many armies have something that can handle him. But it does take some list tailoring. Then , there are the armies that can`t do a damn thing about a Star Dragon (like Ogres...and don`t start the inane knee-jerk reaction about how so-and-so combo COULD kill a dragon or the amusing anectdote about how your cousin`s friend killed one once using Ogres).

Almight Nocturnus

w3rm
04-10-2009, 03:31
Bahhhh send o couple hundred beer bottles his was with sharp stuff att''ll take im down!

mrjellybeans
04-10-2009, 03:53
I dont think they are too bad. I play HE lists with star dragons and have had mine shut down in many games.

As for ogres:
The standard wepon I see on a tyrant is the tenderiser, a fantastic weapon to deal with dragons (though a tyrant with a gw is still good for that too).

Skyth
04-10-2009, 03:56
Nothing 3 str 7 rerollable hits from a herald of khorne cant handle!

Except the dragon and rider are immune to all his attacks...

Bretonnian Lord
04-10-2009, 04:03
I think Star Dragons are a really nasty surprise if you're not expecting them. It's hard (though not impossible) to kill a star dragon if you haven't tailored at least some of your list to deal with it. The best you can hope to do then is to contain it and make it not worth its 600 odd points.

I find other dragons quite mellow when compared to the Star-variety :p

theunwantedbeing
04-10-2009, 04:04
Is tailoring necessary?

No, but it's an unpleasnt surprise when your opponent get's out a star dragon and you realise that you haven't got anything that's really going to do anything other than annoy it. The big problem is that it flies so making it do what you want it to do is usually pretty tricky.

There's definitely a big difference between a player who knows how to use a dragon properly, than with one who doesnt though.
A star dragon in the hands of a newbie isnt overly scary.

Positioning is everything really.

Condottiere
04-10-2009, 04:07
It's not the Dragon that's dangerous, it's how the player uses him.

Wolf 11x
04-10-2009, 04:08
It's not the Dragon that's dangerous, it's how the player uses him.

I feel the level of skill it takes to use a Dragon is slim-to-none. If they have big nasty cannons, do your best to avoid line of sight. Otherwise, don't charge a unit that can tie you up (such as Black Guard or Eternal Guard) and you'll have a blast destroying one unit after the next.

The Red Scourge
04-10-2009, 11:59
I used a chaos dragon, when I started out, but it quickly got to be just a wee bit boring. Its too mobile, too hard-hitting and just too easy and dominant on the field.

Its much more fun to have a use for your troops, other than just being cheerleaders for a big lizard :)

Avian
04-10-2009, 13:04
Is tailoring necessary?
With my Warriors of Chaos army, my main consideration at the moment is how to kill Dragons and other large monsters. Last tournament I faced 7 big nasties of various types (3 Dragons) and only killed 1. A shooty-avoidance list with a Dragon, for example, can be very difficult to face since I can't easily move forward and I can't easily stay where I am. A Dark Elf Dragon rider, for example, plows through just about anything I have. For my armies, it's causing me to bring more magic, more knights and more monsters of my own. If I took a more balanced army, I'd just flat out lose.

Eta
04-10-2009, 13:09
With my Warriors of Chaos army, my main consideration at the moment is how to kill Dragons and other large monsters. Last tournament I faced 7 big nasties of various types (3 Dragons) and only killed 1. A shooty-avoidance list with a Dragon, for example, can be very difficult to face since I can't easily move forward and I can't easily stay where I am. A Dark Elf Dragon rider, for example, plows through just about anything I have. For my armies, it's causing me to bring more magic, more knights and more monsters of my own. If I took a more balanced army, I'd just flat out lose.

Second that. If I do not know that I will face a dragon with my WoC, I have lost before the game starts.

Greetings
Eta

brawnyman1989
04-10-2009, 15:08
I have the same problem as Avian, my WoC as it is right now would have immense difficulty taking out a dragon. But that's besides the point.

My main problem with dragons(no matter the variety) are that the game you play turns into "kill the dragon." That's not what Warhammer is all about. (If the dragon is in larger point games, then I have no problem with it,)

w3rm
04-10-2009, 15:22
Except the dragon and rider are immune to all his attacks...

Ahh yes stuid HE dragons ahhh well I'll just KB the rider and teach him a lesson.

ZeroTwentythree
04-10-2009, 15:37
In the 2000-2250 point games in which I've faced dragons (with my Empire army) lately it has come down to this:

Do my cannons hit & roll enough wounds in the first 2 or 3 turns? If Yes, I win. If No, then he wins.

I love the concept of dragons, and would love to personally use them in games. But they seem to dominate most average sized games so that the entire thing comes down to whether or not the dragon is dealt with. All eggs = one basket.

PeG
04-10-2009, 15:38
There are some armies that will have severe problems with a star dragon and others that will see it as easy victory points. For friendly games ask your opponent in advance of at least let him know. I really dislike when I bring a friendly army to the field and then have to go up against something like a dragon. However if I know about it before hand I will bring something that at least stands a chance of standing up against it.

Foxbat
04-10-2009, 15:42
Sure a Star Dragon is tough, but then again without it, what assets would a HE player have without resorting to Special Characters to deal with power lists from other Army Books?

mistermaster
04-10-2009, 16:12
And here is again the wrong perspective:

HE need a broken thing which function against everybody-but-cannons to deal with broken things from other armybooks which aren´t efective againt everything.

That reasoning comes to an end where everybody claims the need of something broken and easy to use to win other armybooks and that´s what is killing this game.

The worst thing about HE and star dragons is that in a powerlist or competitive list there are really few options for a lord choice (non SC allowed):

-lord on Star Dragon
-Lvl 4 Wizard

It´s just sad that the armybook contains so much options never used because only "fluffy players" consider them viable but not from a game persepective but a fluff one. Sad.

Foxbat
04-10-2009, 16:38
And here is again the wrong perspective:

HE need a broken thing which function against everybody-but-cannons to deal with broken things from other armybooks which aren´t efective againt everything.
Not really, the situation is a question of balance. If other books have big nasties so should all books. The HE only have the Star Dragon. Other books have more options than that.

As for competitive builds, I went to Ard Boys with a list that did not contain a SC or Star Dragon. I placed fourth, losing out for third place by a point or two as I lost to a DoC player using a leadership bomb list.

Lazarus15
04-10-2009, 16:58
Well as a Dragon User, I love the fluff and the idea behind the choice, not to mention the model is stellar!

I don't consider them broken, they are appropriate on points. My lord is 627 points and if it dies I still have a good army, but 2 out of 4 characters are in the dragon and between 1/3 and 1/4 of my points cost is in the dragon.

I can agree that some armies have a much harder time with dragons, than others. Chaos Knights with characters, Hell Cannons, Magic, and a number of Special Characters can kill dragonss. However, not every player plays like that.

Witchblade
04-10-2009, 18:07
I have a lot of trouble taking down dragons and the like with my WE and WoC. With TK it all depends on whether I can land enough screaming skulls on its head, which is rather boring. They're really nasty, but challenging at the same time. I don't really mind, although one of my friends insists on bringing his star dragon to every game we play, which turns our games into rock-paper-scissors.

In sum, dragons are fun occasionally, but shouldn't dominate the playing field.

Radium
04-10-2009, 19:03
Dragons are the best part about fantasy (and the only reason I'm starting a fantasy army again). Facing dragons is a whole different story, but it's not like they're the most unstoppable force ever, eventually they get taken down. Some armies just have it easier.

Condottiere
04-10-2009, 19:39
There are dungeons; there are dragons.

We don't seem to have dungeons, so we're stuck with the dragons.

Arguleon-veq
04-10-2009, 21:05
I think they are an important part of the game, after all this is Warhammer Fantasy not a historical wargame.

As has been said though, some armies have a horrible time dealing with them unless you can tailor.

The one time I have faced a Star Dragon with my Chaos, I knew I was facing one so we just had a cool Dragon vs Dragon match up which mine won.

Other than that though the other big Flyers have been Kairos and another High Elf list with a Dragon Mage and a Lvl4 on Dragon. Those are completely different though as the are more of a shooty/magic/harrassment threat that only engage when you are weakened.

My Beasts recently faced a Thirster and despite getting the charge on it with Frenzied, Unbreakable, Poisoned Great Weapon Wielding Bestigors thanks to magic, it still just won anyway and then went and smashed the rest of my army...

I suppose its just like other armies that cant deal with certain things though. The only problem with Dragons being that most armies can take them. I always try to include a few things to at least put a bit of hurt on Dragons in my lists. I think everybody should as even if you dont face one, those big guns/big spells will still come in handy.

Revlid
04-10-2009, 21:14
My Ogres have little problem with a Dragon - it doesn't cause Terror for them, and my Tyrant with Tenderiser will quite happily mess it up good.

However, I'm thinking of starting Pestilens Skaven when they're released. That... could get nasty. I'll have to theme up a WL Cannon sharpish.

Avian
04-10-2009, 21:35
My Ogres have little problem with a Dragon - it doesn't cause Terror for them, and my Tyrant with Tenderiser will quite happily mess it up good.
Lucky you, then. :p The last time I faced a Star Dragon with my Ogres, he unsportingly stayed away from my Tyrant and concentrated on squishing other units. :cries:

Arguleon-veq
04-10-2009, 21:37
There have been lots of people in this thread talking about things busting up Dragons, but 90% of these things are much slower than Dragons.

How on earth are you people actually getting to fight these Dragons with the things you want to fight them with?

An Ogre Tyrant can be very easily avoided by Dragons. Whilst it racks up points crushing expensive and easily broke Ogre units.

Chaos Knights? Unless you have a Sorc Lord with Shadow or get REAL lucky with a Lvl2 with the Book. How are your Knights fighting Dragons? Besides when they are getting charged in the rear and beaten?

EDIT - Avian beat me to it lol.

selone
04-10-2009, 21:38
Yeah funnily enough both dragons I faced over the weekend weren't sporting enough to charge who I wanted them to do.

Amlesh
04-10-2009, 21:42
Ahh yes stuid HE dragons ahhh well I'll just KB the rider and teach him a lesson.

I'd just like to point out that the rider would be immune to the KB. He's immune to the whole flaming attack.

My solution to Dragons? Blood Knights with Vanhel's Danse and the Hatred Banner. Splat.

Einholt
05-10-2009, 00:13
I think Dragons are for two kinds of people. Firstly some people like them for the story and tell their opponents its coming and they would like to use one.

The other kind of people say the dragon is fair, it costs a lot and It CAN die! Shocking I didn't realize that the ability to somehow die is a balancing factor all of a sudden. I hope you guys think you are amazing generals when you win with dragons =) it's all you not the dragon at all.

Dragons have no place in a combat system designed largely for average Stats 3. But hey at least the dragons can always point to the BT and be like well what about him.

w3rm
05-10-2009, 00:43
I'd just like to point out that the rider would be immune to the KB. He's immune to the whole flaming attack.

My solution to Dragons? Blood Knights with Vanhel's Danse and the Hatred Banner. Splat.

THEN I WON"T TAKE THE BLOODY FLAMING WEAPON THEN!!!:mad::mad::mad:

:D

StormCrow
05-10-2009, 01:07
Well my tomb kingarmy hates them;

Immune to my catapults

Blows up chariots

The dragon is hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's against my LORD who can't even ride a giant beastie of his own.

Other dragons i don't really care about, just the star dragon and stupid dragon armour

Seabo
05-10-2009, 01:40
Try facing a Dragon, any kind, with Beasts of Chaos...
Unless you're maxing out w/a Doombull and tons of minotaurs you don't stand a chance.
Even then if the Dragon gets the charge on Doombull he's pretty much paste due to that insanely stupid rule that Doombulls can have magic weaps but nothing else :(

sabre4190
05-10-2009, 06:39
From a fluff perspective, dragons are awesome. Just awesome. Still, in 2000 point games, when your opponent has a few units and takes such a massive investment, it doesn't seem to make sense. Clearly, if every 2000 point force takes one, dragons must be pretty common instead of the rare beasts that they are. I liked it better when people only really took them at 3k points, but oh well.

From a gaming pov, i think it's boring. When facing a unit with that kind of mobility and killing power, you fight in a very different way. I'd rather fight a more standard army with lots of infantry and cavalry, rather than a deathstar of some kind. It's just more fun and tactical, rather than finding a way to kill this one unit before it destroys my entire army.

esqulax
05-10-2009, 08:41
Except the dragon and rider are immune to all his attacks...

Isn't it just the rider that is immune? Why would the dragon be?

PeG
05-10-2009, 08:46
I think it is fun to see one on the table now and then if I am prepared that I will face a powerful list (not necessarily a dragon) and can bring a powerful list myself. As others have said they do change the game which I think is positive as long as it doesnt happen all the time.

Avian
05-10-2009, 08:59
Isn't it just the rider that is immune? Why would the dragon be?
The rules explicitly says the mount is immune to flaming attacks as well.

Condottiere
05-10-2009, 09:04
Dragon armour immunity includes the mount.

Flogger
05-10-2009, 09:06
I play TK, WoC and DoC.

With TK taking a star dragon is close to impossible! Last time at 3k I did massacre his ass thanks to 7 light horsemen with a champion, they held the dragon for two combats, enough to get tomb guards with undying banner into him, fifth turn he fled of the field. But as mentioned earlier, he autodestroys chariots and is immune to screaming skulls, really blows!

With warriors a tooled up lord can take it, especially with the glaive, but monsters are still a problem with WoC.

With my Slaanesh DoC I have no worries, my keeper can eat him up no problem.


However I do think Star Dragons should be banned from all tournies, let them play with moon dragons! They're just as good as all other armies dragons and doesn't autodestroy chariots or has SEVEN wounds(!!). I do kinda like what some tournies have done where they ban flying large targets, effectively stopping lame monsters like dragons, BTs and Lords of Change.

Lazarus15
06-10-2009, 05:16
The star dragon is not immune to flaming attacks, only the rider if is equipped with Dragon Armor. The skull catapult is fantastic for killing dragons. I run two at 3k points and they do very very well.

Einholt
06-10-2009, 05:33
High Elf book page 57.

Dragon Armour: Forged in the heart of a volcano, this fine armour is enchanted to ward off the effects of dragon breath. Dragon armour is heavy armour, giving a 5+ armour save. In addition, the model and its mount are immune to all breath attacks, and all flaming attacks.

I'd go get some dragon armour if I were you =).

Condottiere
06-10-2009, 08:57
It does seem like a no-brainer upgrade.

Desert Rain
06-10-2009, 11:15
I think that dragons are really cool, being fantasy iconic and all of that. I don't really mind them in games as long as I can tailor my list a bit against it.
Last game I had was against a wood elf army with a dragon in it. My High Elves didn't have anything that could seriously threaten it, so I lost because of that. The two treemen might have something to do with the loss too though, but cheesy wood elves isn't what this topic is about.

archie-d
06-10-2009, 11:41
ive never played against a dragon with my TK, i hope i never have to. i have enough trouble taking down hydras :(

they do look cool though

Gaargod
06-10-2009, 12:40
Its an idiotic rule, dragon armour. On several levels (the mount gets the bonus? Its immune to a big flaming cannonball, but not a normal one?).

However, that's what the rule is. Certain armies just cant do anything about them, at all (beasts, TK, ogres) if thye're played even reasonably well. Others only have a couple of options (orcs can use giants/mork wants ya, but its hard to do). On the other end of the scale, some armies blast through without eve trying - VC can lock the dragon down with zombie raising as rear charge, daemns have enough of their own big nasties to kill it, DE can drop several hundred shots on its head/hit it with sticks, LM have got some magic potential.

However, the bloodthirster is even more insane. With obsidian armour, high stats all round (seriously why does it need M8 as well as flight?) and crazy killing capability, it can take down most stuff in the game with almost no counters other than mass shootng, hoping to take it down before it starts exploding units.

Red_Duke
06-10-2009, 13:00
Star Dragons vs TK and it all comes down to the Tomb Guard. Once you're in to him with them, its a case of holding on and hope it breaks. TBH DE dragons are worse, as the hatred makes them extremely reliable. However, at least the SSC works on them then...

Generally i dont see much point going for the mount in the case of either HE or DE, as they tend to be exceptionally difficult to kill, and then you might end up facing a frenzied dragon for your trouble...

Overall though id rather face a Dragon than a Bloodthirster. at least a dragon can be broken!

selone
06-10-2009, 13:13
Its an idiotic rule, dragon armour. On several levels (the mount gets the bonus? Its immune to a big flaming cannonball, but not a normal one?).

I was amazed when I found out mid battle that the dragon is immune to fire as I'm not sure thats the intention of dragon armour when it says its mount is also immune. It's also a little silly when someone in dragon armour is immune to screaming skull catapults, dwarven cannons and skull taker.

Having said that though its not so silly for dragons to be immune to be fire. After all that is where dragon armour comes from :)

Enigmatik1
06-10-2009, 13:26
Star Dragons vs TK and it all comes down to the Tomb Guard. Once you're in to him with them, its a case of holding on and hope it breaks. TBH DE dragons are worse, as the hatred makes them extremely reliable. However, at least the SSC works on them then...

Generally i dont see much point going for the mount in the case of either HE or DE, as they tend to be exceptionally difficult to kill, and then you might end up facing a frenzied dragon for your trouble...

Overall though id rather face a Dragon than a Bloodthirster. at least a dragon can be broken!

You'd be surprised how many people don't run Tomb Guard, sadly. And no, I am not one of those people, I swear by my unit. :D Many of the lists I've seen run skeletons instead to save points for other things.

The problem, however, is that any decent High Elf player knows that allowing their Dragons to be caught with their pants down by a Tomb Guard unit is extremely risky and will probably avoid it unless they just don't know any better.

But in general, Tomb Kings struggle against big monsters. I attribute it to poor list design since every army has big nasties they can throw at us and all we have are characters or the Bone Giant, which isn't terrible...but, like the rest of the army, is overcosted for what it does and is too random in an otherwise reliable army to really be effective in its supposed role.

Red_Duke
06-10-2009, 13:36
Getting a dragon with TG generally comes down to keeping the army together, and hiding as much as possible behind scenery, with the TG in the open, and ideally on a hill. Icon of Rakaph is handy, although vs a star dragon a warbanner can be even better i've found as long as you can catch it. Still, dragons do force the player to really get stuck in with it if they want to win, while the TK player can snatch some late points with say a king in chariot unit if need be, especially given the potential 24" range.

Catapults i find can deal with most nasties, although often i prefer using a bone giant and ushabti (certainly at 2250), even if it then gets left to the king with his flail of skulls to deal with many of the more horrible things out there. Also tends to focus the army once you take the catapults away. No holding back when you've got nothing to sit there pelting at people until they get to you!

Grupax
06-10-2009, 13:39
Try facing a Dragon, any kind, with Beasts of Chaos...


slaanesh gets it done, make his dragon frenzy and lead it away or make sure the only thing he can charge is a blocked unit with a character that has rune of true beast; or you can use the spell where he cant move/shoot/cast/attack back...
and then there's also tillitating illusions.

Beast cowers also works if you roll lucky.

Keller
06-10-2009, 16:46
I like dragons, but more so in larger games than just 2000 points. They add a lot of the high-fantasy feel to the game, but tends to be too much of "all the eggs in one basket" play that others have mentioned. In larger games, you can afford to have a second character with the dragon, while still having points for an army. And the extra points means your opponent may have a better chance with them, too, making it a bit more even than the rock-paper-scissors that dragons can turn the game into.


Other creatures are even more fun, IMO.

Condottiere
06-10-2009, 17:00
At 2K, taking a Star Dragon escalates the situation, in a way only a few other units do.

You have to deal with a unit that can fly and cause terror and wreck havoc behind your lines; it's not impossible to deal with it, just challenging as long as you have the right tools.

mdauben
06-10-2009, 19:17
Try facing a Dragon, any kind, with Beasts of Chaos...
I had a friend a few years back who played a Chaos army featuring a big Khorne Daemon general. No one seemed to be able to beat him (becuase his big Daemon just trampled everyone) except me and my WE army. My General on a Forest Dragon just played tag with his big bad Daemon, never commiting to a charge, hitting him in the back with breath weapons and a magic bow ever turn while the rest of my army, free of the threat of the big Daemon, wiped out the remainder of his army.

Of course, it worked in great part becuase his army had no missle weapons or war machines to threaten my dragon rider. ;)

Awilla the Hun
06-10-2009, 19:21
If the dragon has twinkly blue scales, a metrosexual Luke Skywalker impersonator on top, and is named after a certain blue jewel, (the rider being named after a Lord of the Rings character) I'm satisfied.

"Comrades! AIM THE TREBUCHET! THE COUNTER REVOLUTIONARY, COUNTER LITERARY FIEND WILL BE CRUSHED!"

On the other hand, the only time I faced one, it was unpainted it. I cannonized it, and then my halberdiers detachment got eaten by the Wizard riding it. In hand to hand.

Wolf 11x
06-10-2009, 20:10
So, specifically, Dragons are usually over the top in a 2000 point game? Basically every army has to tailor to defeat a Dragon?

A Star Dragon in 2000 is even worse?

Einholt
06-10-2009, 21:18
Exactly. I think they have a huge impact even at 3k but it is manageable and if you are playing on an 8 x 4 board this helps curb their built in imbalance towards other stuff. I think it is very short sighted to think Dragons are balanced by points. Some things just cant be balanced by points.

Avian
06-10-2009, 21:28
Basically every army has to tailor to defeat a Dragon?
No, some armies tend to pack a good amount of war machines anyway. And even armies that don't tailor to defeat Dragons can do it, it just tends to be a lot harder.



Some things just cant be balanced by points.
To be specific, there is a reason you aren't allowed to make a 2000 pt army consisting of three Lords on Dragons.

Fobster
06-10-2009, 22:11
I find them reasonable as O&G. I tend to field a couple of bolt throwers and a rock lobber and doom diver. Plus orcs have a big footprint so it's harder to get behind us straight away. The goblin boss with tricky' and one hit wunder may work, though a black orc on wyvern is a reasonable counter as well. i find a dragon far less of a chore than a BT which is OT in the extreme. Obsidian armour, all magical weapons count as normal ones of their type? pretty much nulifies any chance of taking the thirster down in combat meaning only massed shooting or magic stands a chance.

Dr. Acula
06-10-2009, 23:39
I saw a Star Dragon taken out by a Lizardmen army in a 2000 point game earlier. Most of the wounds it suffered were from poisoned Skink blowpipes, although the final would was caused by one of the spells from Beasts. However, the LM player had tons of models still remaining as they'd not put all their eggs in one basket. However, the HE player had only the lord formerly on the dragon left, the other units having all been wiped out by the LM.

It is certainly possible to beat a Dragon even if the list is not tailored towards it (although I do appreciate the difficulties some armies have) but from a personal perspective at 2000 points they're too much of a gamble to take.

AlmightyNocturnus
07-10-2009, 00:07
Rewind about 50 posts...

I can`t believe people still tried to justify the Star Dragon vs. Ogre Kingdoms armies. Perhaps you have suffered a head injury and can`t finish reading an entire post (like everything I wrote in my post).

No HE player is going to fly their Star Dragon over and let my Tyrant bash it over the head with the Tenderizer...unless they have also suffered a head injury.

The Star Dragon is cheesy. And people who take Star Dragons vs. Ogre Kingdoms need to get caught in the middle of a ice hockey stick fight...where they will hopefully get hit in the head.

Almighty Nocturnus

Condottiere
07-10-2009, 00:19
Then there are always the double dragon lists at 2K, though the Dragon Mage doesn't measure up to the Star Dragon, it's still not an alluring prospect to find two beasties on your back.

AlmightyNocturnus
07-10-2009, 01:18
If someone brought two dragons in a 2K list versus my Ogre Kingdoms, then I`d have to start the hockey fight...

Almighty Nocturnus

TheMav80
07-10-2009, 04:40
I've not had to face one with my LM ever, but I think the only way I could stop it would be to get lucky with Magic.

I suppose it is possible I could play super brilliantly and my opponent would do something stupid to allow my Carnosaur riding Lord with a Blade of Realities anywhere near it...

Freman Bloodglaive
07-10-2009, 07:51
In Empire we only have two options for a dragon. Karl Franz, riding the Empire's only black dragon, and Asarnil the dragonlord.

Both are moon dragons, so not that bad and come with downsides. Karl Franz becomes a target and then you lose your general (not so bad for High Elves, terrible for Empire) Asarnil costs a rare and two hero slots.

Lazarus15
09-10-2009, 17:52
Well the latter doesn't seem that bad. It still leaves your lord and another hero slot open at 2250. The rare slot hurts. What does he do? The moon dragon stats are respectable. Karl Franz on the dragon is great for fighting, but your generals leadership or lack of at your battle lines is a bit distressing.

maze ironheart
10-10-2009, 11:30
I myself don't mind what my opponent fields as long as it is in the book not something from a out of date book I've only fought a dragon once in the 9 years of playing warhammer.

Lord Anathir
10-10-2009, 13:07
Ok Im a 9 year high elf player, and I absolutely hate all dragons.

I wish high Elves WERENT the dragon race. they are imbalanced, way too easy to use, make all other high elf builds nigh worthless, and turn all games with a dragon involved into a 'can you kill the dragon' game.


Its an all or nothing thing. Some armies have the tools to murder it and auto win (dwarfs), and some armies have absolutely nothing for it (ogres). Games with a dragon are often decided before the first dice is rolled.

I wish high elves were famous for their magic and infantry, and they are. Its just a shame everything is overshadowed by the star dragon.

isidril93
10-10-2009, 17:10
you have to also see it from the users point of view
dragons and other monster are a major element in warhammer
restricting it to 3k means that they can only be used in long and large games

remember that many poeple started warhammer and love it for dragons and other monstrocities

a warhammer world witout dragons is like one without magic...still doable but not the fantasy you wanted

Marshal Torrick
10-10-2009, 17:53
Just FYI, but the Moon Dragon is NOT as good as the standard dragon as it only has a S3 breath weapon. Other than that, though....

Alderhan
10-10-2009, 18:04
Dragons are such iconic creatures in a fantasy setting. Plus they usually look great on the battlefield.

Personally I don't mind facing dragons with any of my armies.

mujrim
10-10-2009, 18:17
you have to also see it from the users point of view
dragons and other monster are a major element in warhammer
restricting it to 3k means that they can only be used in long and large games

remember that many poeple started warhammer and love it for dragons and other monstrocities

a warhammer world witout dragons is like one without magic...still doable but not the fantasy you wanted

But this is a game at its core. It should be fun... for everyone involved. If you bring a star dragon to every game because "its not fantasy without a dragon" you have to expect some people will not want to play you. Especially if their armies lack sufficient means to deal with it or if you just spring it on them without prior notice.

I've used a dragon infrequently, but I have been playing for a long time. It is fun to use, but it does drastically alter the game in a way that not many other models can.

Most of my armies could generally deal with a dragon, but BoC is one of my favorite and they have a difficult time with dragons.

Enigmatik1
10-10-2009, 18:21
I suppose it is possible I could play super brilliantly and my opponent would do something stupid to allow my Carnosaur riding Lord with a Blade of Realities anywhere near it...

I'm guessing that this happens all the time. People just allow their flying, terror causing SuperLords to be charged by Oldbloods on Carnosaurs with BoRs and Tomb Kings with FoS or DoEs regularly, so it's not a big deal. :wtf:

I can honestly see both sides of the Dragon debate. However, I know there isn't that much my army can do against a tooled up DragonLord played by an awake opponent, barring luck just crapping all over my opponent.

Einholt
10-10-2009, 18:31
I think the solution to big monsters is a new system for them, something like 40k Vehicles where they work differently then the rest of the units. I mean the combat mechanics in this game are made for troops fighting troops. Naturally the Big beasties are gonna be imbalanced in that system.

I think they need a damage chart type thing, you know you shoot a dragon with a cannon through his wing, shouldn't he have a tougher time flying?

Enigmatik1
10-10-2009, 19:20
I think the solution to big monsters is a new system for them, something like 40k Vehicles where they work differently then the rest of the units. I mean the combat mechanics in this game are made for troops fighting troops. Naturally the Big beasties are gonna be imbalanced in that system.

I think they need a damage chart type thing, you know you shoot a dragon with a cannon through his wing, shouldn't he have a tougher time flying?

That's an interesting idea. Make them function kinda like Steam Tanks when they take wounds. It's a slippery slope however, as then I'm sure they'd apply that rule to all Large Targets. I don't think any other Large Target is as game changing as a Dragon, though.

EviIPaladin
10-10-2009, 19:49
That's an interesting idea. Make them function kinda like Steam Tanks when they take wounds. It's a slippery slope however, as then I'm sure they'd apply that rule to all Large Targets. I don't think any other Large Target is as game changing as a Dragon, though.

*cough Bloodthirster cough*

But seriously, I think Star Dragons should be limited to 3k+. I mean, there are other dragons in the HE list... Besides, I don't want to fight only two variants of HE lists: Star Dragon Lord w/ Star Lance + Vambraces of Defence or Telcis.

-Evii

Lord Anathir
10-10-2009, 20:29
sure, dragons are iconic, but never ever has it been HIGH ELVES that were the premier dragon race in any fantasy genre. Elves have so much more character but right now its just getting squashed by dragons. In most of the original high fantasy like tolkiens work, dragons were actually one of the Elves most bitter foes.

Freman Bloodglaive
10-10-2009, 20:40
Well the latter doesn't seem that bad. It still leaves your lord and another hero slot open at 2250. The rare slot hurts. What does he do? The moon dragon stats are respectable. Karl Franz on the dragon is great for fighting, but your generals leadership or lack of at your battle lines is a bit distressing.

Asarnil, 460 points (330 dragon, 130 rider) Rider WS7 and A4 otherwise High Elf hero stats but none of the modern High Elf rules. Heavy armour shield and lance. 3+ scaly save, magic item -1 to hit, but of course large target so +1 for that. S4 breath weapon. Okay, he's actually a blend of Star and Moon dragons.

If I took an Arch Lector (leadership 9 bubble) and a level 2 Wizard (rod of power to help keep spells away) I guess he would play a significant part in the army. I could still afford lots of cannon, and men, and I still have a rare free for the hellblaster.

I guess I'll be painting up the dragon I got for $25 in green and sticking my Asarnil model on top of him. :)

Thanks.

danny7865
10-10-2009, 22:44
people are forgetting the dark elf dragon which is a bit worse.... THe star dragon is a beat but it is the only high strength high toughness thing in the high elf book. Nearly every army has one uber monster really.I think that dragons in smaller games makes for a less fun game though,as like people say it is kill the dragon.I think if high elfs were slightly cheaper rqther than ASF and could generate decent static res without spending 300 points people would prefer infantry....

Enigmatik1
11-10-2009, 00:23
*cough Bloodthirster cough*

But seriously, I think Star Dragons should be limited to 3k+. I mean, there are other dragons in the HE list... Besides, I don't want to fight only two variants of HE lists: Star Dragon Lord w/ Star Lance + Vambraces of Defence or Telcis.

-Evii

I thought that went without saying, sir. I was thinking more along the line of Giants...who don't really need a nerf and I've never heard anyone complain about them! :D

I mean really? Who's afraid of Bone Giants...except maybe a small unit of zombies or Skaven slaves? :P

dlantoub
11-10-2009, 00:33
I have not been into a GW store recently but one thing I did notice when I popped in to goggle at models was every single time I was there, someone was fielding a dragon or a big scaly critter equivalent. I think the feeling on dragons, and other scaly equivalents, is one of ambivalence. People agree that they are cool and iconic but they change the whole nature of play to such a degree that people think "If he brings a steggy/carnosaur/dragon/hydra-whatever Can I deal with it?" That's a LOT of effect from a single model. I'm sure the Bloodthirster gets this too, but he doesn't get remembered because he is much rarer.

Einholt
11-10-2009, 00:56
Naw the BT doesn't get that because people know the answer to that question =P. It's just a statement of fact for most armies that "if he brings a BT, I am screwed" You never know though they might forget to take him out of their case.

isidril93
11-10-2009, 13:20
But this is a game at its core. It should be fun... for everyone involved. If you bring a star dragon to every game because "its not fantasy without a dragon" you have to expect some people will not want to play you. Especially if their armies lack sufficient means to deal with it or if you just spring it on them without prior notice.

I've used a dragon infrequently, but I have been playing for a long time. It is fun to use, but it does drastically alter the game in a way that not many other models can.

Most of my armies could generally deal with a dragon, but BoC is one of my favorite and they have a difficult time with dragons.

true...which i guess is where the dragon mage comes in

what about at 2.25k...those extra 250 points allow for some nastrier combos against dragons

Enigmatik1
11-10-2009, 16:52
true...which i guess is where the dragon mage comes in

what about at 2.25k...those extra 250 points allow for some nastrier combos against dragons

It isn't so much the number of points as it is knowing that your opponent is fielding a Dragon. My standard, all-comers list is not suited to dealing with a Star Dragon, which means that if you fielded one, there's a really good chance I'd get tabled because of one model...once again barring incredible stupidity or an insane amount of luck.

Radium
11-10-2009, 16:58
Star dragons are indeed insanely powerful, but do you think the 'lesser' dragons are that gamebreaking? I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about a normal dragon...

dlantoub
11-10-2009, 19:01
Star dragons are indeed insanely powerful, but do you think the 'lesser' dragons are that gamebreaking? I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about a normal dragon...

I don't know if I've ever seen a "normal" dragon. The closest thing you get is a dragon that is eclipsed by the thing riding it. For example Zombie Dragons are comparatively rare (all eggs in one basket) BUT people are more worried about the 800+ point Vampire riding on it than the actual dragon.
EDIT: There is a new Zombie Dragon this edition.
Same with chaos dragons The Lord on it is frequently just as if not more dangerous than the beasty. Though I did laugh once in a battle with skaven, the Bell caused the Scare monster effect, dragon failed (on 11) and fled close combat, went three inches, Skaven pursue and the whole model went poof. I've also seen a game where a dragon spent four turns hiding behind a hill because it didn't want to get shot.

I will say I do not see other racial dragons eg. Wood Elf Dragons, Zombie Dragons, and even Wyverns very often because there are frequently "more efficient" uses for points. There is a delicate balance between a dragon being points efficient and being just a vanity piece.

If I ever fielded a zombie dragon it would be the latter. But I hate to thing how many boxes of tomb kings and VC skeletons I would have to purchase to convert the thing.

AndrewGPaul
12-10-2009, 00:00
sure, dragons are iconic, but never ever has it been HIGH ELVES that were the premier dragon race in any fantasy genre. Elves have so much more character but right now its just getting squashed by dragons. In most of the original high fantasy like tolkiens work, dragons were actually one of the Elves most bitter foes.

The LotR forum is down there. :)

The High Elves in Warhammer seem to draw as much from Moorcock's Melnibonéans - several of the old High Elf miniatures started life as part of Citadel's Melnibonéan miniatures range:

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20200highelves-h.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20202elfcavalry.htm

In fact, the current High Elf dragon kit bears quite a resemblance to the Dragonmasters Dragon (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1300199&prodId=prod1140119), originally part of that Melnibonéan range. Obviously, at least one of the High Elves' major influences did ride dragons. :)

highelve0065
12-10-2009, 09:53
i have only ever played one game of fantasy, against orgers, and my star dragon got nailed, after tun 2 i had no rider and after the third turn he was gone completly, didnt realy take his points worht anyway. Even though i am knew to the game i feel they can be good and bad, it jsut depends on the situation.

AndrewGPaul
12-10-2009, 12:11
I like using dragons, although I'm crap at doing so.

First game with the latest Army Book, against Bretonnians - my General gets killed by a Bretonnian Hero, and the Dragon Mage fails a Panic check and flees off the board.

Second game - Dragon Mage gets shot off the dragon by Dwarf handgunners, the dragon then wanders about being rather ineffectual

Third game - Mage Lord on (smallest dragon) is rather ineffectual (it's hard to do anything in the Magic Phase when playing against a Dwarf/Lizardman alliance) but manages to destroy 10 Thunderers and a Flame Cannon.

jigplums
12-10-2009, 12:12
ok what about TK shooting, every rank can fire at a large target so 20 archers with command start ranked up. Always hit on 5's 6's to wound the dragon, 4's against the rider. then cast spells so they can shoot again. should get maybe 4 rounds off with good positioning and have 3/4 units all doing the same. If you run khalida, big nastys + lots of poison archers = dead

also if it then charges champ challenges and you start combat at 5. Even if he does full overkill makes him win by 1 and then you raise back in your turn to keep him stuck

BoC cant they take lore of beasts as one of there options? This can really screw over dragons. Also combined charge of lots of chariots can be nasty, tzeentch magic, slannesh magic both have good stuff against them too. Dragon ogres on the charge, buy buy dragon, considering you can get 3 in BTB with it, from the front.

Ogres i think have a real hard time killing big stuff, but if you have gone down the MSU approach the its possible. You set up your long line and move forwards. They declare a charge at one of you units, which may flee, maybe not[you should always get attacks back with ogres and ironguts have a good chance of taking off wounds. Lets say it butchers your unit....of 3 guys it now cant charge anything as it cant see anything. your army then charges forward to the rest of his army. he has to then turn to face 1 of your units. You charge off kill stuff.

basically anything big like that should only ever get 3 charges off in the game. So if you can kill the rest of his army whilst he does this then its all good.
Not easy to do and a good player will resist the early charge preferring to fly to the flank or rear of your army and THEN charge where they have better chances to overrun, be in another charge position.

Einholt
12-10-2009, 19:24
Uh, very specific list investment on the TK, Contrary to what many beleive a specific magical spell IS NOT actually a good counter to things. Uh and if he flies over the ogres instead of charging them and letting you flee?

Why do people always assume the person using the dragon is gonna be a retard about it. And I love this - Just kill the rest of his army whats the big deal? Maybe because he is also PLAYING the rest of his army, and zooming around with the dragon ruining your plans for killing them.

Christ.....

Enigmatik1
12-10-2009, 20:23
Why do people always assume the person using the dragon is gonna be a retard about it. And I love this - Just kill the rest of his army whats the big deal? Maybe because he is also PLAYING the rest of his army, and zooming around with the dragon ruining your plans for killing them.

Christ.....

Maybe fielding a Star Dragon enraptures the controlling player so that he/she may only move or control that model while the rest of the army stands awe-struck for 6 turns cheering the Dragon on? :p

sulla
12-10-2009, 20:33
I hardly ever use a dragon. I find it just a bit too 'point and click' for my tastes. Too direct and unsubtle. When I do take a large monster, generally I prefer a manticore. You have to really hunt with a manticore, patiently stalking your prey without exposing yourself to too much magic or missile fire. With a dragon, you pretty much just move into the centre of the enemy, flame, then charge next turn...

Bac5665
12-10-2009, 20:42
I hardly ever use a dragon. I find it just a bit too 'point and click' for my tastes. Too direct and unsubtle. When I do take a large monster, generally I prefer a manticore. You have to really hunt with a manticore, patiently stalking your prey without exposing yourself to too much magic or missile fire. With a dragon, you pretty much just move into the centre of the enemy, flame, then charge next turn...

Wrong. If you use a dragon like this, you CAN lose to the dragon to TK or BoC. Dragons are for inflicting mass chaos on the enemy's battle line, basically preventing them from charging anything you don't want them to. THAT is the problem with dragons.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
12-10-2009, 20:46
I find dragons easy to take down with my goblin army, every goblin is armed with short bows in my army. They will die in combat anyway so I give them bows then they can maybe kill something before they hit me and trust me large targets don't like 100+ short bows shots a turn.

Greetz

Einholt
13-10-2009, 01:22
Short bow range is 16''....... I think that is enough said.

Draconian77
13-10-2009, 01:30
Not to mention the Dragon could probably just Terror the Goblins off the board without lifting a finger...

I don't like Dragons at anything under 3k myself. At the 2k range, it just seems to turn the game into a glorified rock-paper-scissors competition.

Sons of Blight
22-10-2009, 14:19
dragons are great to fight against - you can always blame your poor tactics or bad dice rolling that lost you the game on the dragon.

D-N-Angel
22-10-2009, 14:45
i love dragons. I miss my emporer dragon :( who remembers them? who rembers how scary a frenzied one was? 16S8 attacks :D

I use them when i feel like it, and i dont bother with the star dragon unless its a big game. 370pts + guy on top is too expencive for anything less than 3.5k.

a regular dragon is fun... plus dragons arnt that hard to deal with. They can be scary. I usualy just dedicate 2 bolt throweres or a dread lord to killing it.

But using them is also fun, its great to breath on a unit of clan rats with a black dragon or to breath on a unit of empire knights with the chaos dragon breath weapon :)

warhawk95
22-10-2009, 15:17
To me a normal dragon isnt too bad, i mean its still a pain to deal with but its managable. then you get the star dragons which are beyond tough to crack for my poor WE. sure shooting at might be good, but that isnt that reliable of a tactic, especially seeing that is he proably in combat on turn 2. so i think the general thought is that the armies with cannons magic and other dragons they should beat the star dragon, but even then one miss fire from a cannon ball or MC spell and its over. and as for BT well lets just say i wish they never existed.

Izram
22-10-2009, 16:15
I really do not enjoy playing against any big point flier. I don't care how hard it hits, it is a massive points sink that can fly away anytime it wants. If things go south, the dragon can flee and deny its points, turning a lot of tournament wins into draws. I had to face 2 armies in the last 3k tournament that both had 2 flying high point lords. You can play them timid and keep them out of danger, and do minimal damage with them, and you are essentially at no risk to get a loss. If they manage to do a little bit of damage, and they get tabled, losing the whole army except those 2 fliers, they still don't lose.

It can be very frustrating sitting down first turn in a tournament game and seeing that, although you may not get rolled by something overpowered or cheesy, you have no chance to score a win this game.

I feel the same way about all denial; like WE and flying circus armies.

Haravikk
22-10-2009, 17:19
An army with a dragon does generally look pretty cool, but I've never seen one last more than a few turns without spending most of the game hiding, as any large unit of bowmen can take a couple of wounds off per shooting-phase usually.

If your army can field poisoned missile attacks then those are a must usually anyway, as they're a great way to deal with most threats, a dragon is no different :)

Condottiere
22-10-2009, 17:28
Most people suffer from Dragon-envy.

The problem becomes acute when the Dragon and his rider manage to get into combat, and outside the arc of missile units.

Midevil216
22-10-2009, 18:08
Never met one but I would imagin there pretty scary.

Bac5665
22-10-2009, 19:21
An army with a dragon does generally look pretty cool, but I've never seen one last more than a few turns without spending most of the game hiding, as any large unit of bowmen can take a couple of wounds off per shooting-phase usually.

If your army can field poisoned missile attacks then those are a must usually anyway, as they're a great way to deal with most threats, a dragon is no different :)

Any Dragon that dies from bow/x-box shooting deserves to loose. (Unless the table has 0, Zero, Nada, for terrain.) Dragons are the most maneuverable thing in warhammer, cause terror and are T6. Bow's should never be a factor to a competent dragon player. I've never seen a dragon die from shooting in a standard 2000-2250 game, and bow fire sure as heck won't do it. It might happen if you leave your dragon out in the open for 2-4 turns, but COME ON!!! WHY THE HECK WOULD YOU DO THAT?!?! Its as dumb as setting your army up facing backwards.

The SkaerKrow
22-10-2009, 19:27
An army with a dragon does generally look pretty cool, but I've never seen one last more than a few turns without spending most of the game hiding, as any large unit of bowmen can take a couple of wounds off per shooting-phase usually.Of Bowmen. Right. :eyebrows: Handgunners perhaps, but not Bowmen. Not even Crossbowmen can consistently put wounds on a Dragon during each shooting phase.

Bac5665
22-10-2009, 19:38
Handgunner's are no better. Still wounding on a 6.

I understand you might knock the guy on top off, but who care's? A HE Prince is a Star Dragon Delivery system anyway. And you'r not knocking off a DE or a WoC character. Not happening.

The SkaerKrow
22-10-2009, 19:40
Yes, but with a better chance to pierce the Scaly Skin save. We're also talking about a theoretical "large unit," which I'd imagine would have to number around 16 models, all of which should be able to shoot at the Dragon since it's a Large Target. Not optimal, but it still has a fair chance of knocking off a wound or two.

Condottiere
22-10-2009, 19:46
Give me a hillside with good LoS and 20 Marksmen of Miragliano (crossbow; BS4).

And Leonardo di Miragliano.

ChaosVC
23-10-2009, 09:25
A friend told me this edition of WHFB is Monster Hammer if everyone wants a winning tourny list. I can't argue with that, so the next model I am buying will be a star dragon...if I am not distracted by other cool chaos warrior project...like a khornate/tzeentch/Nurgle chaos lord on a dragon with dragon orge and hell cannon.