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View Full Version : How do i beat chaos daemons with chaos marines?



Scarecrow808
04-10-2009, 09:46
Scarecrow here, okay, here's the problem i need help with:
when ever my friend (he's a Daemon player and a DA player) comes over to my place, and we play 40k, he always uses his daemon army which consists of:
1- Skulltaker
2-the Masque
3-'herald of khorne"
4-" "
5-"bloodletters x10"
6-" "
7-daemoonettes x10
8-pink horrors x5
9-soul grinder

He ALWAYS creams me into chaos marine soup.
my chaos marine army consists of:
1-DP of Nurgle with doombolt
2-Termy lord w mark of nurgle, twin lightning claws
3- termy squad (5 man) w mark of nurgle, reaper auto cannon
4-10x chosen w 2 melta, 1 plasma, 1 heavy bolter
5- 6x possesed with mark of nurgle
6-3x 10 man CSM squads all with mark of nurgle
7-chaos rhino
8- 5x lesser daemons
Tyranids
1-broodlord w 6 strong retinue
2-2x warrior broods (3 strong), devourers, venom cannons
3- genestealer brood-8 strong with sything tallons
4-genestealer brood- 6 strong
5-gant brood with flesh borers
6-carnifex with sything tallons, regenerate, 2+ armour save, and a barbed strangler

When ever i fight him with this list, which out numbers his daemons 2:1, some how he always ends up beating the bejezzus out of me, can any one help me, please i am desperate for a win agains this guy, he's my best friend and i have never beaten him at, well, anything, exept halo2 in multiplayer, but i am getting off topic, I NEED YOUR HELP:cries::cries::cries::cries:

CrownAxe
04-10-2009, 09:59
That's a kind of crappy daemon list

Scarecrow808
04-10-2009, 10:02
yeah, i know but the bastard always kicks my **** in 40k, with that daemon list

Ozybonza
04-10-2009, 10:08
Ditch the lesser daemons and possessed, get special weapons and rhinos for your CSM squads - maybe put combi-flamers on the rhinos.

Eulenspiegel
04-10-2009, 10:25
First off, this needs to be moved into the tactics subforum.

Second, that daemon list really isnīt particularly strong, and your lists arenīt particularly weak.
The sad news is that your friend is a better player than you :)

I would refrain from list tweaking. Instead, think about how you can use the Daemons deep strike against them: spread out some cheapish squads in front of your heavy hitting units. Thatīs quite difficult because both your armies only consist of elite troops, so ok, maybe you should invest in some cheaper units: small units of Gaunts and Chaos Warriors.

Position them in front of your more valuable units to screen them. When the Daemons arrive, just shoot, dont charge them (unless they managed a risky drop in between your lines and challenge your better units). Let your decoy squads take the charge and die like men. In your next turn, pulp them.

eyescrossed
04-10-2009, 10:37
Chaos Warriors.

Uhh.........

Eulenspiegel
04-10-2009, 10:40
Yes sorry, but Iīm sure he got what I meant.

Vampiric16
04-10-2009, 11:07
When i face small, elite armies like daemons with my nids, I always take a swarm army. Simpley put, my 'elite' nids are not as elite as most of the daemon choices. Plus, with more units on the table, the daemons will find it more difficult to find safe places to deep strike.
I imagine its the HQ units and the bloodletters that are giving you the most grief. Ideally you will want to shoot them a bit before they come to bear. Tyranid warriors are ideal for this task. I run a 5 man (bug?) unit with deathspitters, barbed strangler and +1S. The carnage all those S6 blasts (+ one S4 pie plate) can do to a unit is incredible, especially when said unit only has a 5++ save. I've taken out a 8 man squad of vanguard and a terminator squad with two rounds of shooting with that setup.
Giving your Broodlord implant attack is a must against a proliferation of multi-wound HQ units.
Thats all i can think of for now (little hungover i'm afraid), but hope that helps.

marv335
04-10-2009, 12:33
The simple answer is "By learning to play better"
Against Daemons you have a huge advantage, only 1/2 his army is appearing on turn 1, and the rest turns up piecemeal, plus he can't assault when he appears (unlike your daemons) so has to withstand your shooting.
Focus your fire on a unit at a time, try to take out the soulgrinder early (melta/plasma/doombolt are good for this), Isolate his units and pick apart his army.

kaimarion
04-10-2009, 23:03
Your advantage over that daemon list is mobility also don't waste your points on terminator when playing daemons are you power weapons go to waste and all khorne daemons ignore armour save, I would also drop mark of nurgle on everything bar the DP. Give all your CSM squads flamers and avoid getting anywhere near khorne units unless you have a defiler which will be safe in combat against the bloodletters. You should also mount all your CSM as your opponent doesn't seem to have anything that can move more than 6 so you could avoid combat altogether.

Do not under any circumstances assault khorne units unless it is 100% necessary(too close to escape) charging will negate furious charge but it is still not a good idea, also NEVER charge bloodletters with terminators, carnifexs, plague marines or any thing else that has a high points value, feel no pain or good armour save as they are WS5, A2 and all have power weapons!

TBH his list looks very easy to beat, if you came to my LGC you would see a solid daemon list in action and yes "Methane" I'am talking about your daemons.

Scarecrow808
05-10-2009, 00:12
uh huh, so how can i actually learn to play better? his army seems very overpowered, he usually feilds skulltaker with his bloodletters (20 daemons in a unit some times) and he always seems to be able to asault on turn 1 ?wtf? and i am usually beaten by turn 3 (i think he gets planet strike and standard 40k confused somethimes...) so any tactical tips for taking out his bloodleters?

kaimarion
05-10-2009, 00:34
Over-powered?
He cannot EVER(normal 40k) attack turn one as he MUST deepstrike and you cannot charge after deepstriking(Daemons).
Khorne- Stay at a distance and avoid combat at all cost, modility is your friend.
Nurgle- Power weapons negate FnP so load up on them especially claws as they let you re-roll wounds.
Slannesh- These buggers are fast but fortunately the minor daemons are weak so just use bolters to clean them up.
Tzeentch- These guys are weak in combat so feel free to kill them with your troops but do not assualt minor daemons with terminators or carnifexs.


Use Rhinos and drop mark of nurgle on everything except the daemon prince, try using 1-2 defilers combined with a lash prince so you can group daemons together for maximum effect. Forget the possessed and give the chosen a task like anti-tank(all meltas), anti-infantry(all flamers) or anti-heavy infantry/light tanks(plasmas) but don't mix heavy weapons in with assault weapons. If you only use one Defiler get two oblits as they will be able to deal with the Grinder and can plasma cannon units that the prince has grouped together.

You should also think about giving your DP wings so he can pick a nice soft unit or deal with the grinder, nothing says surprise like bolt of Tzeentch up the backside.

Mannimarco
05-10-2009, 00:39
yeah those daemons deep strike in, they can run to break up their formation but they cant assault on the turn they drop in, for that one turn they are vulnerable so open up on them

kaimarion
05-10-2009, 01:35
so any tactical tips for taking out his bloodleters?

Take a defiler(2ccw) and keep blasting them and a use the lash prince especially if he uses a unit of 20 so you can bunch them together and move them further away, the bloodletters can't scratch the defiler in combat so if they get too close and are about to assault a good unit of yours charge the defiler in and watch as he dies :evilgrin:.

-IronWarrior-
05-10-2009, 03:53
Yea just throw a lot of dice at them. Focus your heavy weapons on the Greater Daemons and just burn the rest down with lots of shots/close combat assaults.

Daemons are easy to exploit. They have AWFUL saves. They excel at close combat so be sure to soften them up with some fire power before engaging them in an assault.

I'm 2-0 against them and the games were not even in the ballpark of close.

Hicks
05-10-2009, 05:02
uh huh, so how can i actually learn to play better? his army seems very overpowered, he usually feilds skulltaker with his bloodletters (20 daemons in a unit some times) and he always seems to be able to asault on turn 1 ?wtf? and i am usually beaten by turn 3 (i think he gets planet strike and standard 40k confused somethimes...) so any tactical tips for taking out his bloodleters?

:wtf: indeed. Daemons cannot charge on the turn they arrive. If he does than it's quite normal that you would get slaughtered. The Daemon army is balanced by the fact that it's units will get shot for at least one turn and that everything deepstrikes. If you are denied your chances of running away and shooting him, his units become undercosted close combat monsters.

Alessander
05-10-2009, 05:20
The only time Daemons are really good is in Planetstrike, since they get to ignore the deep strike assault restriction. But if it was a standard 40K game, your opponent cheated. You should easily shoot him to bits with the lists you posted.

solkan
05-10-2009, 06:14
Daemonettes and bloodletters die to massed bolter fire. Pretty much all of the lesser daemons die to massed bolter fire, some just take a bit more than others.

As a daemon player, the saddest moment of my life was the bizarre situation of a squad of bloodletters being charged by a squad of T5 chaos marines. Hitting on 3's and wounding on 5's ends up wasting a lot of attacks. :cries: Furious charge means that receiving a bloodletter charge is pretty much always going to hurt more than charging a bloodletter, even though they have those scary power weapons.

The most important thing about fighting daemons or other deep striking forces is to avoid spreading out past the point where your army can concentrate its fire. If the deep striking player is playing well, the deep striking units are going to come in and surround where you're weak, and that's what the other player wants to avoid.

Eulenspiegel
05-10-2009, 13:10
uh huh, so how can i actually learn to play better? his army seems very overpowered, he usually feilds skulltaker with his bloodletters (20 daemons in a unit some times) and he always seems to be able to asault on turn 1 ?wtf?
I think we found the solution ;)

If he really does charge you on the first turn, tell him to go read his book and the army-wide special rules properly.

Sureshot05
05-10-2009, 14:10
It sounds to me that you are a little unfamiliar with the special rules in 40k and this is playing against you (especially with an army like daemons, which is reliant on the Deep strike rules).

So to help you out, I would suggest the following:

1) Read and reread the deep strike rules. These you need to commit to memory, especially the fact you cannot assault on the turn you arrive, and also the mis hap rules. It is worth noting that cover is an issue you can exploit.

2) Also, make sure you understand running and fleet. If he runs, then some of his units (those without fleet) cannot assault.

3) Maneuverability. For your CSM, you need to keep his army at arms length whilst you whither them down. Remember, a turn moving away from assault range whilst your other units shoot them can be a better move than to simply stand and shoot them (especially with CSMs). If you wish to use your lesser daemons, consider them a tarpit to throw at the daemon elite whilst you withdraw your key units. I can't advise so much on the nid's list as I only play against them myself, however, the value of every unit piling onto one target, whilst the rest flee his main units cannot be over estimated. Also, infiltrating your units to spread out a bit is definitely going to help you out.

4) Make sure you are playing the missions correctly. If you are not rolling for the missions then you will have a hard time.

5) Check your terrain amount. This is often a killer when starting out, but if you have an empty table then you're missing half the fun.

6) Remember, that not all daemons should be arriving on the first turn.

Remember, you do not have to kill his units to win 2/3rds of the missions, so sometimes clever survival will win rather than outright suicidal attacks.

I hope these thoughts will help you bring victory to the true followers of the dark gods/the hive mind.

Edit: I just remembered one other tip when practicing the rules with a friend. Have a crib sheet of vital rules and also have some pieces of paper in the main rule book with the relevant entries to hand so that their are no hard feelings.