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Jiggy
04-10-2009, 10:23
Greets.
First off I would like you to know that althought this is a rant it is only my humbe opinion and I would love to hear your.
So here we go:
Fluff:I think the Warriors of chaos are nearly not as chaotic is before.I don't know why they had to take out the daemons.But they did and I can only complain on how the WoC book should have been, not how the two books should be HoC again.

So as Einholt said: "it does not inspire the grim dark or the glory of chaos like the Hordes book did, when you opened that book it was like a tome of chaos a forbidden book. This new one is all like CHAOS IS GLORIOUS and it is so because we just wrote that"

The main problem of the book fluffwise is that you get a book about barbarians from the north with little to no contact with the chaos energy.Some people may like hordes of barbarians but this could be achieved with books without any trouble.

So my take on the book would be: If you don't want daemons in it:fine.But have more mutations for crying out loud.Units like possesed and spawn are useless to semi useless.There should be more of them to achieve a more chaotic feel for the book.

Gamewise: This area is mostly covered from what is said above.Simply enough I think the army list is one-dimensional.I like knights and I like warriors but almost all builds seem to include them.

The army on the battlefield is boring to use most of them because of the tiring movement face.Chosen and warriors are indeed some of the most scary units on the game.But M4 doesn't help much nowdays.It would be better of with say a unit of flyers and a unit of skirmishers (proper possesed come to mind)

What are (if any) your thoughts on this?

wilsongrahams
04-10-2009, 11:53
Personally I prefer the new theme for the WoC as they remind me of the Vikings and I liked the models and now can play them without the mutations etc.

However, I believe that they could have left other options in there for that.

I think that the list was purposely made with some missing elemnets as they are so tough in others. My view of the army was a horde of armoured infantry and this is what my army represents. Maybe not the best tactically but it fits GW's new look and my own at least. I have always wanted to play the murderous Viking bad guys without needing to worship a god as such.

Putty
04-10-2009, 13:44
Had the army since Hordes of Chaos. I liked the old book but the army book was used only in a limited amount of ways. My main peeve is that Marauders cannot be marked. Some of the marks were also over-costed. 30 points for MoK Frenzy? What for? Oh for the MR 2. :confused:

The new book is a significant improvement in that department. Marauders can be marked, Warriors got their 2 attacks. MoS got better. But for some reason I think the Marks could be better... the current MoN is okay, but quite useless in close combat because of the close combat to hit charts result scale.

The old book had Furies as a staple. The new book has the slightly slower Marauder Horsemen (with MoS as staple). Chaos Warshrine is also a staple. Knights have always been a staple with the army and has gotten better now too.

Overall the book has improved but the play-style of the army hasn't. Which was what kinda made me get rid of the army for good and head for Empire.

An army that can dominate only 2 phases in the game just doesn't cut it for me.

Jiggy
04-10-2009, 14:43
Exactly.Some people seem to forget movement phase and talk about 3 phases.But the movement phase is the main difference between WFB and WH40k

Sirroelivan
04-10-2009, 15:04
Well Warriors of Chaos can perform well in at least three phases and still have a semi-decent presence in the last one.

Movement: Reasonable mobility, a good number of fast units.

Magic: Powerful offensive magic

Combat: Lots of high quality attacks.

And even with shooting you can still put out some damage by taking a hellcanon, throwing weapons, bloodcurdling roar, etc...

I do admit a skirmisher unit like marauders with throwing weapons would have been nice to add a bit more flexibility.

Overall, the Warriors of Chaos list is more interesting then you make it to be. You just have to look past the ever present warrior-knights lists.

Shiodome
04-10-2009, 15:04
My theory is the MoN was made with a view to 8th Ed changes. It's not a very good theory, but I can live with that.

Arguleon-veq
04-10-2009, 15:12
I think its still quite 'Choatic'. The Hound entry, Spawn, Foresaken, Dragon Ogres and Shaggoths, the Ogres entry, Trolls ETC.

Spawn are not semi useless at all. They are one of the most handy units in the Chaos army. They are our version of a Skirmisher unit really with their charge arc being effectively 360.

The special characters like Vilitch add to the whole 'Chaos' thing too, I agree that characters like Wulrik are more just the northern barbarian theme but I think overall there is an even mix of both.

Sirroelivan
04-10-2009, 15:13
And there's nothing stopping you from including lots of mutations with conversions.

lcfr
04-10-2009, 15:55
Yeah I actually like the theme of Warriors of Chaos being another human army...well, more like 'human plus'. Brings them 'down to earth' in a way, Hordes of Chaos made it seem like they were such a huge deal and really inflated Chaos Mortals' reputation to gross proportions. I like that it's scaled down a bit.

antin3
04-10-2009, 16:02
I too really like the new book, you can go either way with them, add mutations and plenty of marks and you are set. I personally prefer the Norse theme, the mutated chaos infected slimeballs just don't do it for me so I can make them really big hairy humans if I want.

Jiggy
04-10-2009, 16:21
Well seing as the majority believes phill took the right direction with the book I can say no more :) He should please as many people as he could with this book and now I realise he did.

But still I think adding marauders changes nothing to the feel of the army.Still big base M4 close combat units.

Eternus
04-10-2009, 16:43
I like the current book. It accomplishes what they intended, which was to make Chaos a way of life rather than entirely fantastical. It is a more realistic approach. Also, any Chaotic additions to the book would either be in the Special or Rare sections, and there is enough competition in those sections already.

It would have been nice to be able to use my one unit of Daemons though, which are now employed as Forsaken rather than gather dust or be got rid of.

Fenrir
05-10-2009, 09:34
Shame about the daemon prince though. The ability to make a Khornate one of worth would have been nice.

maze ironheart
05-10-2009, 09:49
The new book I think is great the only thing that bothers me is you've got a lord of khorne using a magic item that belongs to another chaos good thats the only thing I think is wrong.

Kayosiv
05-10-2009, 09:53
maze ironheart has a good point. You know when a chaos sorcerer can use a Collar of Khorne freely and without penalty, something went wrong when designing the book.

Baragash
05-10-2009, 10:02
Shame about the daemon prince though. The ability to make a Khornate one of worth would have been nice.

^This.

Also, don't forget you could ask your opponent if you can use the allies/battalion rules to add in a few Daemonic or Beast units (plus obligatory battalion Hero).

This is also a good way to approximate (imperfectly) the Cult of Slaanesh list with the current army books.

SneakyChris
05-10-2009, 10:16
Not one miniature in my WOC army has movement 4....... Im fine with it. In fact my army isnt so much as a horde of north men as it is a group of monsters.....

Sirroelivan
05-10-2009, 12:39
maze ironheart has a good point. You know when a chaos sorcerer can use a Collar of Khorne freely and without penalty, something went wrong when designing the book.

It's only a name. If they had given all items generic names no one would be complaining about this.

Jiggy
05-10-2009, 18:11
A Gav Thorpe quote from the HoC foreword:
"All of this (reffering to the ability of mixing condent from the BoC and HoC books) means that a chaos army is the most flexible army for gamers and collectors in the warhammer game, which is as it should be"

O'rly?

Sirroelivan
05-10-2009, 18:16
A Gav Thorpe quote from the HoC foreword:
"All of this (reffering to the ability of mixing condent from the BoC and HoC books) means that a chaos army is the most flexible army for gamers and collectors in the warhammer game, which is as it should be"

O'rly?

And yet, you are still to prove the Warriors of Chaos isn't a flexible book.

Harwammer
05-10-2009, 18:30
maze ironheart has a good point. You know when a chaos sorcerer can use a Collar of Khorne freely and without penalty, something went wrong when designing the book.

This isn't true, a chaos sorceror must have bested a flesh hound in unarmed combat to earn the right to wear one of these.

Jiggy
05-10-2009, 18:34
And yet, you are still to prove the Warriors of Chaos isn't a flexible book.
I just went through the HoC book and couldn't help it :rolleyes::D

theunwantedbeing
05-10-2009, 18:39
I dont really like the WoC book.
It gives the impression they spent far more time on the 10 special character's in the book than on the actual troops.

Marks all cost the exact same regardless of unit for example, reeks of poor design.
Gifts appear to have been tacked on minutes before the book was printed.
Loads of items have really aweful wordings.

Dont give a damn about the items though, oh no a sorcerer wears the collar of khorne...he got it of a flesh hound. Oh no a sorcerer carries the axe of khorne...he found it or melted the previous owner with magic? Its the way the list is more than anything thats the problem.

It just doesnt seem to have been what it could have been.
I could make a really long list of things I would change that I think would have made the book better but I'll post that elsewhere.

Jiggy
05-10-2009, 18:43
I dont really like the WoC book.
It gives the impression they spent far more time on the 10 special character's in the book than on the actual troops.

Marks all cost the exact same regardless of unit for example, reeks of poor design.
Gifts appear to have been tacked on minutes before the book was printed.
Loads of items have really aweful wordings.

It just doesnt seem to have been what it could have been.
I could make a really long list of things I would change that I think would have made the book better but I'll post that elsewhere.

Lets start with:
Daemonic gifts that are fun and usefull
Daemon princes that ain't overpriced
Some skirmishers-flyers for the shake of fun
EotG reworked to at least give you a blessing for killing champions
A proper ward item (it sounds like no big deal but it isn't.)
Some more-better artwork would do (doesn't compare with the one on HoC)

Entweasel
05-10-2009, 19:14
Lets start with:
Daemonic gifts that are fun and usefull
Daemon princes that ain't overpriced
Some skirmishers-flyers for the shake of fun
EotG reworked to at least give you a blessing for killing champions
A proper ward item (it sounds like no big deal but it isn't.)
Some more-better artwork would do (doesn't compare with the one on HoC)

I was going to rant but now I don't need to - let's just say "ditto"

Valtiel
05-10-2009, 19:25
I think the new WoC army is a pale shadow compared to the good fun I had with HoC along with the Beasts of Chaos book. While play-wise the units have gotten better I find that all the units are pretty much doing the same thing. I miss the different units such as Beast Herds, Furies, some Exalted Daemon (these actually worked well), cheap dependable characters (Beastmen characters I miss so much, I'd love cheaper characters) and the overall feel.

Imo, the new WoC book did have many great ideas. Mutations, Warshrine, Eyes of the Gods, Forsaken etc. all was damn good. Sadly the way it was handled was rather bland and boring. Marks is a mess (some marks I find dull, Nurgle that is, and the points are all over the place), Gifts are very unimaginative and most pretty bad, Daemon Prince was once again a let down, same with Shaggoth, same with EOTG, same with Forsaken and the magic items... well kinda good but I miss something like better protection. A decent ward save would be nice on anything but a Tzeentch character. Oh, and of course, I absolutely hate how they didn't fix the problems with the Chaos Lord (didn't change in price) and in some strange plan they made the Exalted Champion/Hero more expensive to make the Lord seem more interesting. Now Wizards dominate pretty much, since they are the best choices now. And they can take the bests Chaos Gifts and magic items.

I haven't played Fantasy for so long now, my Chaos army is one reason why that happened. The other is the lack of balance these days. So until the next book I think I'll just stay away sadly.

Now didn't this just sound like a rant? :P

Godfiend
05-10-2009, 19:42
The biggest mistake is Forsaken. They're a brand new unit, with tons of options for modelling and painting, and very fluffy. But they're useless. They're weaker than warriors, slower than knights, can't have marks... useless. As they don't do anything that any other unit can't do better already, they're a horrible choice all-around. The real shame is how easy it would be to fix them. Give them marks, give 'em skirmishing, and increase the point cost by about 4. BAM! Useful unit. Their current incarnation makes it seem that they were added last minute and no care was given to if people would use it.

I also don't like many of the gifts, and I think the Daemon princes are stupidly expensive, but that's par for the course now.

Jiggy
05-10-2009, 20:33
The real shame is how easy it would be to fix them. Give them marks, give 'em skirmishing, and increase the point cost by about 4. BAM! Useful unit. Their current incarnation makes it seem that they were added last minute and no care was given to if people would use it.

And how hard can it be after seeing all the hate this unit gets for GW to give them a fix through the site and WD?

The Red Scourge
05-10-2009, 21:46
Nah.. No reason. They just won't make any models ;)

I've been rather disappointed with the WoC. The army is all special characters, Infernal Gateway and no fun. So I've decided to sell mine and concentrate on my woodies (who has a great design), and my VC (Who although lacking a little balancing at least has a wide variety of decent choices :)

Sirroelivan
05-10-2009, 22:03
Nah.. No reason. They just won't make any models ;)

I've been rather disappointed with the WoC. The army is all special characters, Infernal Gateway and no fun. So I've decided to sell mine and concentrate on my woodies (who has a great design), and my VC (Who although lacking a little balancing at least has a wide variety of decent choices :)

I'm wondering if people who make these claims have actually tried to play the army, instead of just going by what the internet claims is the only list to play.

You can do marauder hordes, all mounted armies, hard-hitting elite infantry, loads of monsters, etc.

Einholt
05-10-2009, 23:17
Actually hes right, and you are right. The problem is unless you really like Chaos (and for me it's the old chaos) there are armies that will do all the things you say in a much more elegant and pleasing way. So I am basically playing an inferior list just because I like their now altered past.

The ogres in this army are not as good as knights, the trolls only work when you take Throgg. Dragon Ogres are a solid unit. So 1 monster that's viable.

Knights are viable. Marauder horsemen are viable. Casting characters are viable. Special characters are viable. The rest is filler. I do play them, and I have played them for a long time. Now what you have to understand about those picks is that I base them relative to choices within WoC itself. The internal balance in this book is horrendeous.

Very poor design. Look I wont lie that I do not like the new direction but hey if it was pulled off in a good way, I would have nothing to complain about except my opinion of not liking the fluff. I really hope people do not think it is simply an opinion that the internal balance in the book is bad, it really is not there.

I don't Hate the book I am just very disappointed with it. Is it terrible? No. Is it an extremely huge missed opportunity? You bet.

selone
05-10-2009, 23:28
Some fairly good posts here, there seems like a load of choice but really isn't.

Sirroelivan
05-10-2009, 23:29
There is a lot of choice. Sure, they might not be the ultra competitive choices, but if you go by that, no army has a lot of options.

Lusall
05-10-2009, 23:29
I actually don't like the book for reasons that are totally different from what you just said...

Don't really care that we lost Demons. Didn't use them anyway. But our normal warriors and Knights are what old Chosen Knights/warriors used to be. I can only put it this way. YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! Best change ever.

But the marks are lame. Tzeentch is lame. And the eye of the gods table is lame.

Getting all the creatures from the Beast of Chaos book (i.e. the Dragon Ogres) is lame.

Beyond that...I like the whole viking/barbarian horde feel to them. And actually...they -do- have a lot of contact with Chaos. The book makes that quite clear....maybe re-read?

Some just feel the pull more than others.

My favorite new bit is that normal Chaos Warriors are awesomesauce...but what holds them back is that they kinda hate what they've become. They can't really eat, sleep, shag, or have fun. (At least not in the traditional sense) The only way to be happy and to sate their hunger/lust is to kill.

The Chosen/Exalted Champions/Lords are the ones (the very few ones) who truely embrace the true glory of chaos. And they're the ones that embrace their mutations and use them to the greatest effect. Some can even keep mutations from taking shape.

And spawn...useless? Since when did an unbreakable unit become useless? :eyebrows:

selone
05-10-2009, 23:34
I'm wondering if people who make these claims have actually tried to play the army, instead of just going by what the internet claims is the only list to play.

You can do marauder hordes, all mounted armies, hard-hitting elite infantry, loads of monsters, etc.

Being as how (s)he owns the army do you not think (s)he has tried to play the army? Or do you think (s)he's realy bought an army not used it, listened to 'internet claims' and decided to sell it without trying it.

kramplarv
05-10-2009, 23:36
maze ironheart has a good point. You know when a chaos sorcerer can use a Collar of Khorne freely and without penalty, something went wrong when designing the book.


of course not. how do we know it is a collar of khorne? it might infact be a magical mirror of slaanesh. or an extra wizard living in the nostril of a chaos steed who wards of the magical attacks.

but instead of doing it the boring way of "collar of MR" it is called collar of khorne, but it could as easily be "mirror shard of slaaanesh".

this attitude "the gods don't mix!!!!! so the book is wrongly designed" is really boring. The design is EXTRA good now since those who wants to restrict themselves may do so, and those who really appreciate the pantheon style can do it their own way.

Sirroelivan
05-10-2009, 23:39
Being as how (s)he owns the army do you not think (s)he has tried to play the army? Or do you think (s)he's realy bought an army not used it, listened to 'internet claims' and decided to sell it without trying it.

What I meant was, have they tried to play different styles of armies? Trying out what is possible with the army book?

selone
05-10-2009, 23:46
You'd have to ask him/her though you would imagine she/he has. As for me I'm at a mere 7 games and counting with WoC (2 friendly, 5 tournament) so I'm no scholar of the warriors but I have some experience with them, if not as much as others. In the Border princes campaign I'm forced to come out of my comfort zone so its not always gateways and knights ;)

Would you not agree that a bad choice is no choice at all?

Sirroelivan
06-10-2009, 00:19
I don't really think it's bad choice in these cases.

Well I'm not that long into Warhammer myself, but besides the Daemon Prince, the Chaos Lord and the Forsaken I don't see any dud units, and even those three have their uses.

selone
06-10-2009, 00:34
I don't think the dragon prince is too bad, tendrils of tzeentch, fury of the blood god and another gift means he's pretty handy. He's not great though at a eye opening 575 points and I would argue theres a few not great selections in the army.
As far as hopless unit's go would you not count a dragon ogre shaggoth amongst chaos lords and forsaken?

Sirroelivan
06-10-2009, 00:36
Hmm, not really. The advantage of the Shaggoth is that he delivers a lot of high strenght attacks in a small frontage, which has it's advantages.

Seville
06-10-2009, 07:34
Wow. I'd like to congratulate everyone on keeping this discussion civil! :) It's great!

I personally love the book. I think the new approach is flexible and fun, and as others have mentioned, it portrays the worship of chaos as a way of life in the harsh, chaos-touched north. I really like the pantheon approach.

But you're still free to go mono-god if you like, which is cool as well.

Balance-wise, I'd say the army is spot on. Can hold its own against any army (and before anyone says anything, yes, I have trounced demons and VC at tourneys before)

Anyway, just my two cents.

The Red Scourge
06-10-2009, 08:17
I'm wondering if people who make these claims have actually tried to play the army, instead of just going by what the internet claims is the only list to play.

You can do marauder hordes, all mounted armies, hard-hitting elite infantry, loads of monsters, etc.

Sure I have, and what I used to like about my army seems to be gone - even though they just got tougher and hit harder, but they're just not "chaos" anymore. Thats the aestethic argument.

Playwise, I've just found more interesting armies :)

theunwantedbeing
06-10-2009, 08:41
there seems like a load of choice but really isn't.

That's largely been the point of chaos though.
You get to choose between units a-z and they all do combat and nothing else to varying degree's of sucess.

Avian
06-10-2009, 09:08
So as Einholt said: "it does not inspire the grim dark or the glory of chaos like the Hordes book did, when you opened that book it was like a tome of chaos a forbidden book. This new one is all like CHAOS IS GLORIOUS and it is so because we just wrote that"

The main problem of the book fluffwise is that you get a book about barbarians from the north with little to no contact with the chaos energy.Some people may like hordes of barbarians but this could be achieved with books without any trouble.
I both agree and disagree. I agree that the current book focuses too much on the northmen and the chaos incursions, where they are just another 'evil army coming to attack us', not really any different than, say, greenskins or Dark Elves.

However, I don't think the Hordes book was any better than this. I can't really see how this is more of a "forbidden book" than the current one. Looking through it, it has the same focus (disregarding daemons, obviously). On the other hand, I picked up the Tome of Corruption (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=64190&filters=0_0_0_0) and that is fundamentally different.

What I feel is missing is the "enemy within" aspect, which is a major part of chaos in the role playing game. That would make the chaos more than just another external threat and let you play around with cultists and mutants.

Fenrir
06-10-2009, 09:34
Have to say that I haven't actually used the new chaos book yet, in spite of having it since it came out and being a major chaos player (around 9-10,000 points of pure Khornate stuff).

I don't know why, but this new book lost something for me. It just didn't capture the feel of the older chaos books (I've used them since 4th ed) and grab my attention. Seeing the costings of the marks for each unit made me suspect that it was a rush job, and Khorne armies struggle against magic now - which is why theres a lot of "Khornate with a tzeentch wizard" armies out there now.

There are some good ideas in the book, but they seem to be a first draft, rather than a finished product. Eye of the Gods - great idea! However, instead of forcing people to challenge, why not make the table good enough to have them want to challenge and attempt glory. Instead, it seems to have become more of an annoyance for the other chaos players.

It's an alright book, but just that - alright.

There are a variety of armies in there, and a good selection of differing builds. However, the tournament standard has boiled down to "gateway. As much as possible. On discs"

Eternus
06-10-2009, 10:29
I suppose this thread, like so many similar threads about various armies, comes down to a single choice between playing the army because on the whole you like it, regardless of what people may perceive to be flaws, or choose not to play it. Being as we can't really change the army, just try new things and new combinations of troops, characters, magic items etc, then this is the only real choice we have to make.

I choose to play Warriors of Chaos, because they are cool, they are brutal and I have a 3500 point army of them. ;)

Fenrir
06-10-2009, 10:58
I'm currently working on my Ogres, but with a view to adding them into the Tribe of the Hound - all marauders, with M horseman, dogs, plenty of ogres, dragon ogres and a Warshrine. Lead by by a couple of Marauder Chieftans (who seem suspiciously similar to Exalted Champs).

Oh, and lots of Khorne marks. Lots of them.

selone
06-10-2009, 11:11
That's largely been the point of chaos though.
You get to choose between units a-z and they all do combat and nothing else to varying degree's of sucess.

Thats true although some do combat a lot better than others and I think magic is essentiual with dealing with some enemy threats.

Upon the background the enemy within feel of the roleplay book's and early warhammer has definitly gone and whilst thats a shame, as my friend was saying whilst tzeentch and slanesh could likely hide themselves quite well along the local populace, I can't imagine chaos warriors of khorne hiding, undiscovered, in an empire town that well :)
Perhaps they could have had a cultist option but marauders are already fairly cheap.

My biggest issue is that the most anthemic choices of the chaos warrior book's, chaos warriors and lords are so hard to justify for me in an army list. I know lots of people like chaos warriors but at just under 200 points for 12 they scream march block to me and I should know as orcs and goblins I did it to them many a time. I'm not wanting to get into a massive debate about the pros and cons of chaos warriors though I appreciate feedback from people that have used them to good effect but I dont think its a good thing when the most thematic/drawn of all units is very hard for me to justify myself taking.
I like marauder on foot as infantry though.

Eternus
06-10-2009, 11:27
It's true that in general WoC units are about combat and how good they are at it, but the units can be split into 3 distinct categories, all of which must be used in synchronisation to achieve victory - you have your heavily armed and armoured infantry that are rock hard but slow, you have your larger units of competant close combat fighters which are are much more lightly armoured, and then you have the fast moving offensive units, be they cavalry, monsters of whatever, which may well be destroyed if they attack the enemy unsupported and outnumbered.

I think that there are important distinctions between these types of units that must be taken into account when planning your battle, and you need to ensure you have the right units for the right jobs. Yes, on the surface the strategy behind the WoC army is straight forwards - get into combat as fast as possible - but unless you get the right units into combat with the right enemy, you might get a nasty suprise.

Jiggy
06-10-2009, 13:51
I had an idea on the EotG.
In addition to the gift that is granted to the chaos champion he also gets a 4+ chance of having a 5 man strong daemon skirmishing unit deep strike near him.
This is to represent the attention mortal followers of the chaos gods get.
Khorne = bloodletters
Slaanesh=daemonettes
Nurgle=plaguebearers
Tzeentch=horrors
Undivided=furies

Fenrir
06-10-2009, 16:05
Deep Strike? Wrong system, Love.

Johnnyfrej
06-10-2009, 16:26
That's largely been the point of chaos though.
You get to choose between units a-z and they all do combat and nothing else to varying degree's of sucess.
And that's wrong? I always thought of Warriors of Chaos, like 40k Orkz, to be themed towards Close Combat, with shooting/magic thrown in as support.

Lusall
06-10-2009, 19:17
I both agree and disagree. I agree that the current book focuses too much on the northmen and the chaos incursions, where they are just another 'evil army coming to attack us', not really any different than, say, greenskins or Dark Elves.

However, I don't think the Hordes book was any better than this. I can't really see how this is more of a "forbidden book" than the current one. Looking through it, it has the same focus (disregarding daemons, obviously). On the other hand, I picked up the Tome of Corruption (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=64190&filters=0_0_0_0) and that is fundamentally different.

What I feel is missing is the "enemy within" aspect, which is a major part of chaos in the role playing game. That would make the chaos more than just another external threat and let you play around with cultists and mutants.

I both agree and disagree. (Sorry to steal your opening post. ;) )

I do think that the book could focus more on the whole cultist aspect of Chaos. There's certainly many fluffy cases of Chaos rotting away the innards of the Empire. (The Great War against Chaos, for example).

But...at the same time, I don't think that Warhammer Fantast battles is the correct medium through which to play out those inner battles. I think the largest threat to most nations (mostly the Empire) on the field is infact the Hordes of Chaos surging out of the North.

But...(there's that but again) I could see a cultist unit added to the Chaos army.

Maybe a low WS/S and LD skirmishing unit with bows?

Or, instead of allowing Marauders to take marks, make a unit called the Cultists and allow them to take marks. (Not as good as Marauders but they can take marks)

But if you did that...you'd have to make the marks not suck. (Which I think they do in this edition of Chaos Mortals... :mad: )

Lusall
06-10-2009, 19:19
Deep Strike? Wrong system, Love.

I don't think he actually means Deep Strike. Poor choice of wording perhaps, but I think he/she means summoning or something like that. :)

Jiggy
06-10-2009, 20:43
I don't think he actually means Deep Strike. Poor choice of wording perhaps, but I think he/she means summoning or something like that. :)
Well duh I know I play WFB.

To make it clearer:After the chaos model has killed an enemy character (including champions!) he rolls on the EotG table.Then he rolls again and on a 4+ the daemons come.Roll the scatter and artilery die and place the summoned daemons X inches away from the chaos character/the unit he has joined as indicated by the scatter dice.If a "hit" is rolled the controlling player can select the direction.If a misfire is rolled the character loses one wound with no armour saves allowed and the daemons are lost between the realm of chaos and the material world.

How's that?

Lusall
06-10-2009, 21:25
Well duh I know I play WFB.

To make it clearer:After the chaos model has killed an enemy character (including champions!) he rolls on the EotG table.Then he rolls again and on a 4+ the daemons come.Roll the scatter and artilery die and place the summoned daemons X inches away from the chaos character/the unit he has joined as indicated by the scatter dice.If a "hit" is rolled the controlling player can select the direction.If a misfire is rolled the character loses one wound with no armour saves allowed and the daemons are lost between the realm of chaos and the material world.

How's that?

Whoa bro...I was defending you, not attacking. ;) I rather liked your idea.

Jiggy
06-10-2009, 21:39
Whoa bro...I was defending you, not attacking. ;) I rather liked your idea.
Didn't say you attacked me mate :)
I just quoted you thinking I would quote Fenrir at the same time (as it happens on other forums).

Sambojin
07-10-2009, 01:29
In my opinion it's quite a nice book. Heaps of missed opportunities and a few weird things in it though. I thought it strange for GW to be adament that DOC/WOC/BOC were splitting completely and then including what I consider to be BOC units in half the list. It's a strangely balanced list with most things doing the same thing, just very slightly differently(armour/movement/base choice really). Point costs are a little strange on some things(marks, characters and a few weapon options) but overall they're quite good. I don't really mind the mix/match items/marks things, as really it's just a semantic issue not a background destroying one (these are frenzied cultists of slaanesh, they just take the khorne mark to represent that).

It is also kind of cool to get a varying use mini with every purchase. You can subtly alter how your army plays by a mark change or a weapon swap. I'd rather buy 2 marauder boxes, some horsemen and some knights that can play differently every time than the same sort of light infantry/fast cav/knights for almost any other army. It just makes it alot cheaper to try stuff out (and be wysiwyg tournament approved). Similar army, but not the same. With the high point costs it makes a WOC army easy to start out for a newbie and with not many truly bad troop choices even a novice can have a decent chance of competitive gaming.

Fenrir
07-10-2009, 09:50
Well duh I know I play WFB.

To make it clearer:After the chaos model has killed an enemy character (including champions!) he rolls on the EotG table.Then he rolls again and on a 4+ the daemons come.Roll the scatter and artilery die and place the summoned daemons X inches away from the chaos character/the unit he has joined as indicated by the scatter dice.If a "hit" is rolled the controlling player can select the direction.If a misfire is rolled the character loses one wound with no armour saves allowed and the daemons are lost between the realm of chaos and the material world.

How's that?

If it's a case of "duh", then why introduce the deep strike rule from 40K into fantasy, and assume that people know what you are on about?

Anyway, onto the idea:

How many VPs are the daemons worth?
What can they do when they come in? They'll get shot fairly easily, for free VP's.
Do they turn up in the combat phase? They'll be open to an easy charge and kill, with an overrun into the flank of the summoning characters unit as it's only d6 away
What happens if they land on another unit?
What happens if they land in the combat?
Which rules are used for them?
Are the marks the same as the one in WoC? Or are they special ones?
Do the daemons have their own god specific rules? (horrors wizards, regen PB's etc)
What about instability rules, are they the same as DoC ones? In which case, can they use the BSB?

Eternus
07-10-2009, 10:30
As I understand it Daemons are both powerful and expensive in points, so this would have to add a chunk to the cost of the character. Is there really that much wrong with the EotG table as it is, given that it's included in the cost of most WoC characters?

Fenrir
07-10-2009, 11:02
Is there really that much wrong with the EotG table as it is, given that it's included in the cost of most WoC characters?

Theres nothing wrong with the table per se, the problem lies in characters being forced to challenge.

The table should be inviting enough that they want to, rather than have to.

Eternus
07-10-2009, 11:15
Theres nothing wrong with the table per se, the problem lies in characters being forced to challenge.

The table should be inviting enough that they want to, rather than have to.

But they challenge because they want to prove that they are greater than their opponents and to attract the attention of the Gods, and the challenge rules force them to be used 'in character' as it were. Given that WoC characters can be so powerful, I suppose this is their downside - every one has to have a down side I suppose.

Baragash
07-10-2009, 11:28
But they challenge because they want to prove that they are greater than their opponents and to attract the attention of the Gods, and the challenge rules force them to be used 'in character' as it were. Given that WoC characters can be so powerful, I suppose this is their downside - every one has to have a down side I suppose.

Fenrir's point, which I agree with, is that excellent games design would make WoC players want to challenge (and therefore play in character) anyway, without EotG being broken.

Rules where a player will want to act in character > rules where a player is forced to act in character.

(This is not to say being forced is a bad rule as such, just that the player wanting to do it anyway is better).

Eternus
07-10-2009, 11:58
(This is not to say being forced is a bad rule as such, just that the player wanting to do it anyway is better).

Agreed. So this is only really an issue for those players that wanted to allocate their attacks normally rather than challenging.

Fenrir
07-10-2009, 11:59
Agreed. So this is only really an issue for those players that wanted to allocate their attacks normally rather than challenging.

Well, not forgetting that you don't get anything for killing a champion, but are forced to challenge him.

Avian
07-10-2009, 12:02
Given that WoC characters can be so powerful, I suppose this is their downside - every one has to have a down side I suppose.
Eh? Warriors of Chaos characters:
1) cost a lot of points
2) compared to other characters costing about the same, tend to fight better but die quicker
3) generally don't have better Ld than the units have

That's enough downsides right there, if you ask me.


In Phil Kelly's defense, the EotG rule probably was not meant to work like it has been FAQ-ed.

Eternus
07-10-2009, 12:05
Well, not forgetting that you don't get anything for killing a champion, but are forced to challenge him.

I suppose you will fewer models, but you still get Overkill for killing a Champion in a challenge, and thus contribute to the combat resolution.

Avian
07-10-2009, 12:15
I don't think you are getting the downsides of having to issue / accept challenges.

The ability to issue challenges benefit the weaker side in a combat, and thus getting that advantage reduced only really matters when our challenger is the weaker part, which isn't often. It doesn't matter if we have a powerful guy and he has a weak champion, for example.

Fenrir
07-10-2009, 12:18
I usually accept with a champion - leaving more of my blokes to hit back in CC, as the character can only kill one from the front rank. Common tactic in combat with nasties.

Eternus
07-10-2009, 12:20
I don't think you are getting the downsides of having to issue / accept challenges.

The ability to issue challenges benefit the weaker side in a combat, and thus getting that advantage reduced only really matters when our challenger is the weaker part, which isn't often. It doesn't matter if we have a powerful guy and he has a weak champion, for example.

Please explain to me, apart from not being able to direct attacks at the models you would like to, how being forced to fight a champion in a challenge is a downside? You may kill fewer models in the enemy unit, so they could get more attacks back if the rest of your unit fails to perform, but apart from that what? Your character should slaughter most enemy champions and in so doing rack up the combat res. The only difference could well be the number of enemy models left to flee, and possibly get cut down in pursuit if you are fortunate, and that you don't get an EotG roll for a Champion.

isidril93
07-10-2009, 12:28
it seems like a good book
less of the whole one unit of beast, 2 of warriors, and some daemons
i like it