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DaSpaceAsians
04-10-2009, 23:20
The question is simple: are they still worth it point wise (or should I sell mine away?) and which load out is most efficient?

The Guy
04-10-2009, 23:32
I've taken them out of my infantry squads and put them all into heavy weapon squads, this way my squads become more mobile whilst still having the same base of fire backing them. Win/ win :)

Ironhand
04-10-2009, 23:40
I've kept them in my infantry squads because Heavy Weapons squads are too easy to knock out, other than lascannons which I still keep in heavy Weapons squads on the rare occasions I use them.

I generally use autocannons. They match up very well with plasma guns versus monstrous creatures and light vehicles.

Kurisu313
04-10-2009, 23:43
The question is simple: are they still worth it point wise (or should I sell mine away?) and which load out is most efficient?

Shouldn't this go in the tactics forum?

Short answer, yes. They still have their uses.

Mortars are very good, as their increased fragility means nothing to a unit that sits out of LOS.

Concentrating lots of lascannons into one squad and getting them twin-linked by an officer has worked well.

Autocannons can be good, but they are more army-dependent. Necrons don't fear them, for example.

Missile Launchers and Heavy Bolters are a bit useless, IMO.

In infantry squads, they are useful for the fact that troopers can absorb all the dangerous S6 hits, and they can take a S5 or less hit without the squad losing any ability.

Escaflowne_Z
04-10-2009, 23:50
Mortar squads are viable, as are heavy bolters, in my experience. Both are cheap, and both are rarely regarded as a real threat by most armies.

Bunnahabhain
05-10-2009, 00:15
Mortar squads are great, heavy bolters are dire on any infantry.
Missile launchers are OK, but a bit expensive, Autocannons are rather useful, as are lascannons.

The trouble is their fragility. Anything except the mortars can't concentrate fire without being a horribly vulnerable target, especially to S6+ weapons. The 2W, T3 model idea is stupid. Lascannons also suffer badly due to some high class competition.

However, don't get rid of them, as the next codex and edition is likey to be more infantry heavy, to make up for the increasing mechanisation of this codex and edition.

Badger[Fr]
05-10-2009, 00:23
More often than not, HWS are still not worth their points (and have never been for years, acually). KP and vulnerability to ID only made them worse.

noobzilla
05-10-2009, 01:06
My most recent list uses a HW squad mortars. They are worth their weight in gold for hordes.

I really like Mortars and sometimes Lascannons, although more often than not, I stick with regular HW teams in squads such as autocannons which with a GL give each squad some APC attack power.

Dexter099
05-10-2009, 01:19
The problem with autocannons is that everything does their job better. If you want mediocre anti-tank fire, then missile launchers are better. If you want to kill MEQs, then yes, Autocannons are better than Heavy Bolters at doing this, but missile launchers are still better than autocannons. As for killing light to medium infantry, heavy bolters are significantly better.

Maybe if autocannons became a 1 shot blast weapon with the same profile they'd be more useful in some circumstances. As it stands now, they're pretty worthless.

Bunnahabhain
05-10-2009, 01:45
The problem with autocannons is that everything does their job better. If you want mediocre anti-tank fire, then missile launchers are better. If you want to kill MEQs, then yes, Autocannons are better than Heavy Bolters at doing this, but missile launchers are still better than autocannons. As for killing light to medium infantry, heavy bolters are significantly better.

Maybe if autocannons became a 1 shot blast weapon with the same profile they'd be more useful in some circumstances. As it stands now, they're pretty worthless.

I disagree with this totally.
Autocannons are great for transport busting, much better at this job than missile launchers, and cheaper.

Heavy bolters suffer from a mediorce S and range, and they simply don't do enough damage to control hordes. 4+ cover saves reduce the casulties to much. Flamers and barrage weapons ignore most of these.

djinn8
05-10-2009, 03:27
If you issue an order to an infantry squad and you'll only get the benefit of one heavy and possibly a special weapon firing with increased effectiveness. Issue that same order to a heavy weapon squad and you'll get three heavies firing instead, making that order much more efffective, especially when you consider that the heavy team will probably be firing at a choice target.

Cluveru
05-10-2009, 06:37
If you issue an order to an infantry squad and you'll only get the benefit of one heavy and possibly a special weapon firing with increased effectiveness. Issue that same order to a heavy weapon squad and you'll get three heavies firing instead, making that order much more efffective, especially when you consider that the heavy team will probably be firing at a choice target.

Use combined squads and you'll have a cheap meatshield protecting your teams from those anoying Str6+ weapons.

Badger[Fr]
05-10-2009, 08:35
Autocannons are great for transport busting, much better at this job than missile launchers, and cheaper.

And even better than a Lascannon against Av10-11.


Issue that same order to a heavy weapon squad and you'll get three heavies firing instead, making that order much more efffective, especially
But you can't issue orders to a Ld7 unit reliably, whereas Infantry squads can buy Vox Caster and Commissars to make sure your precious orders won't be wasted.

Mojaco
05-10-2009, 09:43
They have their use. They can claim your home objective and they're harmless enough not to get shot at usually (they're plenty of other stuff that should scare my opponent).

However, I've given up on giving them order. Creed and his sidekick can do it reliably, or perhaps make a little group of HWS's and a Commissar lord, but otherwise order will just fail nearly half the time. Too bad, as two of those orders are brilliant.

DaSpaceAsians
05-10-2009, 12:08
;4009131']And even better than a Lascannon against Av10-11.


But you can't issue orders to a Ld7 unit reliably, whereas Infantry squads can buy Vox Caster and Commissars to make sure your precious orders won't be wasted.

That's why I use Creed and Kell

RMHaggis
05-10-2009, 13:00
hmmm i thought the point of guard infantry squads was to provide wounds to keep the heavy weapon alive? i would say use one in every squad you have unless you have a specific duty for it to perform e.g vetran melta taxi(vets with 3 meltas and plasma pistol in chimera)

i even put heavy weapons in my command squads to use their higher BS and just to fit another one in infantry based heavy weapons+orders=guard winning games.

Halcyon
05-10-2009, 14:25
I'm a bit of a noob, but surely it would be points better spent on a vehicle? Not only do you get decent fire power but armour and mobility? That's how I interpreted the troop build that I've done.

don_mondo
05-10-2009, 15:53
IMO, HW squads are not worth it, but I absolutely agree with placing a heavy weapon in each and every Infantry squad. Mainly for the reasons alreay posted. HW squad fragility, especially when exposed to ST 6 or higher weapons, lack of leadership making them nearly useless for orders.
As an example, couple weeks back I played in a small 1500 point tourney, last game wound up facing the only other IG player, IG on IG for the overall. All his heavy weapons were in 5 HW squads. All mine in Infantry squads. I went first and hammered his HW squads with ST 6 or higher weapons. At the end of my first turn, he had two weapons left out of 15, 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Autocannon. That was pretty much the end of the game.

noobzilla
05-10-2009, 17:27
The problem with autocannons is that everything does their job better. If you want mediocre anti-tank fire, then missile launchers are better. If you want to kill MEQs, then yes, Autocannons are better than Heavy Bolters at doing this, but missile launchers are still better than autocannons. As for killing light to medium infantry, heavy bolters are significantly better.

Maybe if autocannons became a 1 shot blast weapon with the same profile they'd be more useful in some circumstances. As it stands now, they're pretty worthless.

No, no, and No.

Missile Launchers are one shot weapons that miss 1/2 of the time with regular Guardsmen, and even then only have +1 strength. An autocannon can pop a rhino or chimera much more effectively for its relative points. I have one Missile Launcher in my army and thats in my Command squad which is loaded out with a Medic, Plasma and Missile. The Plasma/Missile are really for versatility and extra point spending. An autocannon would do both of their jobs much better if I had others.

And like was pointed out, Heavy Bolters power is negated by the use of cover, personally, I'd rather have the GL/Autocannon load out in every squad but I lack the models for it. GL/Autocannon gives you a blast weapon as well as a high strength weapon to deal with APC's.

Probably the best mix out there IMO for the price. Missiles + Lascannons are just too expensive.

Shinnentai
05-10-2009, 17:43
As stated, direct-fire heavy weapons squads are just too fragile, making them easy to take out and an easy kill point to boot. If they were capable of taking vox casters (include an option for krak grenades but not vox casters? WHAT?) it might be worth holding your company CO back to issue orders, but as it is he's way more useful bossing the combined squads about.

I'll still be taking em though because I prefer the idea of no-HW infantry squads advancing with supporting fire from the HW squads. Just be nice if this was a competitive option...

noobzilla
05-10-2009, 17:57
HW squads are ok when you have them in cover I have found. I usually issue them "bring it down" and pop any tank reliably with Lascannons. I strayed away from this though in my current build where instead I invested most of anti tank in vehicle methods. But gave most of my light tank punch to my troops.

AngryAngel
05-10-2009, 20:02
I use HW squads alot actually. I find them still very viable. Yeah they will be targetted sometimes. However range can be their best survival tool. Lascannons, mortars, autocannons. Sitting back 48 inches away goes along way to keeping them alive. Use some good cover with them and you can also go to ground and not worry too much in the IG.

I run Creed and Kell in my list though, so if a unit goes to ground I get them back in the fight rather easily. The LD 10 from Kell helps alot. Also the number of orders I can use for bring it down helps alot when the lascannons are focused in the squads. Same as with the autocannons for transport busting.

Mortars, as has been said, can sit back and lob shells at the enemy in some safety.

As for the vulnerability to str 6 weapons. That is true, however I've found that alot of that fire is either on very vulnerable platforms, or shorter range, so its usually not as much of an issue to keep them alive.

They are however a vulnerable KP, thats their biggest negative. Shots going to them, aren't going to your other units however. Which can be a problem if your run some larger combined squads ( which I do ).

djinn8
05-10-2009, 20:36
I don't agree with what quite a few people have said. Heavy teams aren't that fragile. They hide at the back in cover, meaning that only long range weapons can fire at them, which are generally limited in number or have more pressing targets to be firing upon. By the time the small arms fire is in effective range, the heavies should have killed a fair bit and it doesn't matter too much that they get shot up. Landspeeders, infiltrators and stuff can be a problem, but then that's why your opponent paid points to have them and it's down to you to find a counter.

Also I think people are exagerating when they say that LD7 is poor for taking orders. Sure it's not great, but 7 is the number most commonly rolled on two dice so it isn't all bad. That and you should probably have a command squad specifically given the task of baby sitting the heavy teams if you have enough of them to warrent it.

Bunnahabhain
05-10-2009, 20:55
S6-7 weapons that mow down heavy weapons teams are very common, either as blast weapons, or multi shot weapons. They are far too useful for transport busting.

Trouble is, if you've got a fair number of heavy weapons teams, then you've got fewer chimeras, and vehicles in general, so those medium strength weapons don't have their intended targets, so heavy weapons squads become high priority targets.

noobzilla
05-10-2009, 20:56
S6-7 weapons that mow down heavy weapons teams are very common, either as blast weapons, or multi shot weapons. They are far too useful for transport busting.

Trouble is, if you've got a fair number of heavy weapons teams, then you've got fewer chimeras, and vehicles in general, so those medium strength weapons don't have their intended targets, so heavy weapons squads become high priority targets.

Absolutely true, you need to distract your opponent with high priority shiny toys if you want to use Heavy Weapons squads.

Badger[Fr]
05-10-2009, 22:11
Absolutely true, you need to distract your opponent with high priority shiny toys if you want to use Heavy Weapons squads.
But HWS squads actually are priority targets, considering their high threat / resilience ratio. Plus, as most IG vehicles have a front Av of 12 or better, your opponent will focus his S6 shots on your helpless Heavy Weapon Teams, since they are the only target available.

Bunnahabhain
05-10-2009, 22:40
If heavy weapon squads were something more like real support weapon squads then they'd be much more useful. Perhaps 12 men with 3 heavy weapons, without the 2 W big base model nonsense....

Maine
05-10-2009, 23:06
HWS in a stationery Chimera get some survivability. While you can't buy the Chimera for them, you can use someone elses transport, deploy with it empty, and have them embark on first turn. Alternatively, Valkyrie/Vendetta drop-offs. Same goes for SWS, leave the infantry squad in your back field and put SWS on the Chimeras for melta drive bys.

HW Teams themselves are also useful when taking wounds; I keep a HW team in every Infantry Squad, and in one game I had the opportunity to utilize the HW team extra wound for 3 different purposes:

1. when taking casualties from shooting, allocate an unsavable (but non insta kill) wound to the HW team to reduce number of models lost by 1, and thus 3 unsaved wounds don't cause a morale test

2. when taking casualties from shooting, place a wound on the HW team and remove other visible lasguns, so most of the remaining models would be out of LOS (and thus grant the squad a cover save)

3. when taking wounds from assault, allocate a wound to the HW team so as to not lose an attack for the next round (guard v guard)

It's not 100% reliable, but it gives an edge.

CushionRide
05-10-2009, 23:29
The problem with autocannons is that everything does their job better. If you want mediocre anti-tank fire, then missile launchers are better. If you want to kill MEQs, then yes, Autocannons are better than Heavy Bolters at doing this, but missile launchers are still better than autocannons. As for killing light to medium infantry, heavy bolters are significantly better.

Maybe if autocannons became a 1 shot blast weapon with the same profile they'd be more useful in some circumstances. As it stands now, they're pretty worthless.

my problem with missile launchers is that the word MISS is in the name. i find that my missiles almost never land, weather i play space marines or impguard. mind you aside from my bad luck potentially a missile launcher offers more variety of fire, but in my opinion nothing beats a good old fashion leman russ exterminator ^_^ five plasma cannon templates FTW!!!!

Lusall
05-10-2009, 23:30
Heck yeah man. Auto-cannons. Enough said. :-)

Lord Cook
05-10-2009, 23:37
Mortars Heavy Weapon squads are certainly well worth it. They can stay safely out of sight while laying down some cheap anti-horde firepower and still count as scoring.

Any of the other heavy weapons I would always put into an Infantry squad, because with instant death they are simply very fragile in dedicated squads if they need LOS. Within troops squads, autocannons are both cheap and extremely useful, and I would rate lascannons quite highly as well.

Lusall
05-10-2009, 23:40
Mortars Heavy Weapon squads are certainly well worth it. They can stay safely out of sight while laying down some cheap anti-horde firepower and still count as scoring.

Any of the other heavy weapons I would always put into an Infantry squad, because with instant death they are simply very fragile in dedicated squads if they need LOS. Within troops squads, autocannons are both cheap and extremely useful, and I would rate lascannons quite highly as well.

That too...Mortars are easily the most underestimated heavy weapon in the game.

I've been told by people that mortars are the worst heavy weapon ever. :wtf:

lowrider
05-10-2009, 23:50
i dont take HW squads i use hydras instead as they cost the same points as a 2 autocannon 1 heavy bolter HW squad and have better range and twin linked on the autocannons and they are mobile without loosing a turn of shooting.

if i did use a HW squad i would use mortars and hide them away behind some cover for the whole game, but they are abit redundant in my army list as i take a demolisher, a standard russ battle tank, two bassies and a master of ordnance so i dont really need anymore template weapons do i? ;)

Bunnahabhain
06-10-2009, 00:03
That too...Mortars are easily the most underestimated heavy weapon in the game.

I've been told by people that mortars are the worst heavy weapon ever. :wtf:

4th ed codex and rules, they were right. However, some people have missed the changes since then.

DaSpaceAsians
06-10-2009, 00:05
so i dont really need anymore template weapons do i? ;)

You can never have enough templates

Lord Cook
06-10-2009, 00:31
mortars... are abit redundant in my army list as i take a demolisher, a standard russ battle tank, two bassies and a master of ordnance

None of which count as scoring. Mortar Heavy Weapons squads, however, certainly do. ;)

fwacho
06-10-2009, 00:36
I run 3 HW squads (mortrs, lascannons, 1 lascannon and to M.L.) as well as running most infnatry squads with one. M.L. and Lascannons 1 auto cannon, 1 heavy bolter. pretty well mixed. light vehicles usually die turn 1 against me.

noobzilla
06-10-2009, 05:04
None of which count as scoring. Mortar Heavy Weapons squads, however, certainly do. ;)

Which makes them absolute win. And in cover, these guys can be nasty! I had a unit survive an entire game behind 4+ cover holding an objective and just massacring numerous MEQ's. Needless to say they have found a spot in my list indefinitely.

FunkyRatDemon
06-10-2009, 05:50
Autocannons are of too much importance in 5th. Easily the best choice IMO since its 5pts less then a Missile Launcher, has 2 shots, still is effective anti light-transport, and good at taking down Monstrous Creatures while still Insta-killing T3 guys.

Prefered to run Platoons as Autocannons w/ Grenade Launcher for Medium-S killing capability.

Missile+Grenade in squads is also useful, since 2 Medium/high S Shots or 2 Templates can mean lots of damage.

Heavy Weapon Squads are too vulnerable, and the themselves are the 'meat shield'
Heavy Bolters can't handle hordes well enough anymore, Lascannons are too pricey, Missiles suffer from mixed-usage syndrome, Autcannons in masses are usually overkill (and better vs Nids/Orks lists) and Mortars while useful lack sufficient S in most cases.

Lord Cook
06-10-2009, 14:13
Missile launchers were fine when they cost the same as autocannons. That was a fair price for them. They both acted as versatile weapons, with the missile launcher leaning towards anti-infantry and the autocannon leaning towards anti-tank. I used both.

But now that missiles are five points more than autocannons and mortars have gotten cheaper as well, there's really no point to missiles any more.

Cynisperer
06-10-2009, 14:28
Yes and no, they are good with the twin linked order, but usually it's only mortars that catch my attention. What you can do with a squad of lascannons you can do better with vets with 3 multas and a chimera better, and not as fragile.

tu33y
06-10-2009, 14:36
Also I think people are exagerating when they say that LD7 is poor for taking orders. Sure it's not great, but 7 is the number most commonly rolled on two dice so it isn't all bad. .

i give orders to my ratlings and they pass more than id expect!

given the points im tempted (now iv just bought a bag full) just to give as many squads as poss a chimera with a stubber- thats 9 heavy rounds going away...

Cynisperer
06-10-2009, 14:46
You'd have to take vet squads cause normal troopers cant take transports

eyescrossed
06-10-2009, 15:03
A simple solution to them being ID'd: give them Eternal Warrior and Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates. That way, a single Lascannon can't kill the team, but a Flamer can.

Mike3791
06-10-2009, 15:07
What you can do with a squad of lascannons you can do better with vets with 3 multas and a chimera better, and not as fragile.

Not necessarily. It will take you 2-3 turn to get into position to take out an enemy vehicle, and you also run the risk of them turning into a "suicide" squad. Lascannon HWTs can start killing enemy vehicles on turn 1 and its biggest defense is its range. However I may just replace my Lascannon HWTs with Vendettas, as they are mobile, more durable, transport troops, better aim, and probably cost the same points. They also dont need an officer babysitting them with the "bring it down!" order..niice :cheese:

don_mondo
06-10-2009, 15:08
You'd have to take vet squads cause normal troopers cant take transports

Say what? I think you need to check the Infantry Squad entry again. Both Platoon Command and Infantry Squads can have Chimeras. It's the 'specialty' squads in the platoon that cannot have one.

Cynisperer
06-10-2009, 15:14
Say what? I think you need to check the Infantry Squad entry again. Both Platoon Command and Infantry Squads can have Chimeras. It's the 'specialty' squads in the platoon that cannot have one.

It says that the plattoon Command squad can have chimeras yes, but does not say you can take transports for normal troopers, you'd have to take chimeras indivigually and load them up first turn.

That or your looking at the 4E codex

Cynisperer
06-10-2009, 15:18
Not necessarily. It will take you 2-3 turn to get into position to take out an enemy vehicle, and you also run the risk of them turning into a "suicide" squad. Lascannon HWTs can start killing enemy vehicles on turn 1 and its biggest defense is its range. However I may just replace my Lascannon HWTs with Vendettas, as they are mobile, more durable, transport troops, better aim, and probably cost the same points. They also dont need an officer babysitting them with the "bring it down!" order..niice :cheese:


Aye, but when the other player starts his entire army in reserves, what would those lascannons be doing? You have to look at it this way, either plan for the worst, or plan to have your army balanced, I do take heavy weapon teams but I also take vets with meltas just incase the other player DOES stay in complete reserves.

Mike3791
06-10-2009, 16:23
Aye, but when the other player starts his entire army in reserves, what would those lascannons be doing? You have to look at it this way, either plan for the worst, or plan to have your army balanced, I do take heavy weapon teams but I also take vets with meltas just incase the other player DOES stay in complete reserves.

If the other player starts his entire army in reserves, then none of your army is doing any shooting anyways, so it makes no difference. Not sure what type of opponents you usually play, but most people/armies don't deep strike vehicles(which is what your lascannons will be targeting primarily).

blackroyal
06-10-2009, 16:25
It says that the plattoon Command squad can have chimeras yes, but does not say you can take transports for normal troopers, you'd have to take chimeras indivigually and load them up first turn.

That or your looking at the 4E codex

Take another look-see at the "Transport:" section of infantry squads.

Cadian144
06-10-2009, 16:31
Yup plan for the worst is very good thinking.

I take teams and also in squads. I make 1 platoon of 4-5 suads with a heavy weapon and I have 1 platoon of 3-5 squads ( depending on points) that I keep as my more manuverable unit.

I also take the weapon teams as you can not beat that fire power.

I dont take a lot of Lascannons as I just dont seem to have luck wit hthem, same with morters, although in big games I will take both. My mainstay is Heavy bolters and Autocannons, and 1-2 misle launchers in the squads. But bolters seem to be the overall mainstay of my forces.

I dont care who or what you are, but when you have as many as 6-10 bolters shooting at your @$$ its going to hurt:D I also upgrade all my tanks with a hull bolter, sponsons and a stormbolter or stubber ( off topic) But I leave most of the tank killing to my sentinels and or tanks

My 2 cents

don_mondo
06-10-2009, 16:46
It says that the plattoon Command squad can have chimeras yes, but does not say you can take transports for normal troopers, you'd have to take chimeras indivigually and load them up first turn.

That or your looking at the 4E codex

You did do as I suggested and actually looked at the Infantry Squad entry in the codex, right? As blackroyal suggested, you might want to look at the transport options for Infantry Squads. Or maybe you are the one looking at a 4th ed codex..................
To repeat, Infantry Squads in a platoon can take a Chimera.

Edit: Correction, 3rd ed codex. IG didn't get a new codex during 4th.....................

Wolflord Havoc
06-10-2009, 18:33
I tend to do both

Autocannon, lascannon and Mortar squads and missile launchers in the Inf. squads.

I keep lascannon in the Veterens making use of their Higher BS.

I had Mortars originally for pure fluff reasons (most modern/WW2 armies had/have Mortars at Platoon/Company/Battalion level) but I have found them to be useful in nearly every game I have played with the guard. My useual opponents hate and fear them.

Autocannon I feel stradle the gap between Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, and Missile launcher - a jack of all trades and master of none. A good weapon choice when you don't know what you are up against. The Higher S and extra range over the HB make up for the low ROF IMHO.

As for suvivability - well this is guard - lots of your troops are going to die - if my opponents are shooting at my HW Squads - then they are not shooting my infantry units which are claiming objectives and generally HW Squads are setup in cover so are generally more survivable.

Bunnahabhain
06-10-2009, 18:40
As for suvivability - well this is guard - lots of your troops are going to die - if my opponents are shooting at my HW Squads - then they are not shooting my infantry units which are claiming objectives and generally HW Squads are setup in cover so are generally more survivable.

I don't have any problem with taking casualties. I have a problem with units being wiped out before they actually have a chance to do what they're supposed to, and heavy weapons squads have a tendency to do that, unless they're safely behind a hill with a mortar.

Wolflord Havoc
06-10-2009, 18:54
I don't have any problem with taking casualties. I have a problem with units being wiped out before they actually have a chance to do what they're supposed to, and heavy weapons squads have a tendency to do that, unless they're safely behind a hill with a mortar.

Now I do appreciate what you are saying but surely that is also true of a Land Raider? It can potentially be killed with a single hit in turn 1 (seen it happen)!

Same is true of any unit in the game.

I suppose it becomes an issue where you only have AT fire power for example in say 2 squads of LC - an armor heavy force is going to pick on the lascannon pretty damn quick.

In my games my opponent is presented with a pretty large target list - I can usually absorb the loss of HW weapon teams and if he ignores them - hell thats 6 LC shots a turn at what ever I deem to be worthy of 6 LC shots.

Okay I am getting a little bit "Donald Rumsfeld" here and pointing out the bleedin obvious - so I will stop.

laudarkul
06-10-2009, 19:43
IG Heavy Weapons teams still worth it in my opinion. Especially the mortar squad now it's almost a must (cheap, easy to hide). The LC and HB teams are perfect with BiD order (still have to paint 3xAC in order to test them as a replacement for the HB). Those squads bring more targets to enemies so they have to choose what to shoot first; and since those squads can be place in cover that's means some 4+ chances to survive.

DigitsDavid
06-10-2009, 20:44
I tend to work with the rule of cool!

In my opinion, heavy weapons teams are easy to convert and can make your army look pretty sweet. Then again, I don't enter tournaments or keep track of my wins, I play for kicks.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/DigitsDavid/P9150002.jpg

Lord Cook
06-10-2009, 20:46
You'd have to take vet squads cause normal troopers cant take transports

It says that the plattoon Command squad can have chimeras yes, but does not say you can take transports for normal troopers

I assure you, you are mistaken.

Raxmei
06-10-2009, 21:27
It's the oddest thing. The change from the previous codex to this one is that infantry squads gained the option to take chimeras. In the previous codex in the absence of doctrines chimeras really were just for command squads and not infantry squads. The change to the new codex is the exact opposite of what Cynisperer thinks it is. Of course for the role that started this whole tangent in the first place you'd want to use vets or command squads anyway, but the average Guard army should have no trouble obtaining either.

I use mortar squads because they're cheap and can maintain a low profile. If they whiff it doesn't matter much, if they die they've hopefully diverted some firepower, and if they kill something that's a plus.

Shipmonkey
06-10-2009, 22:25
It says that the plattoon Command squad can have chimeras yes, but does not say you can take transports for normal troopers, you'd have to take chimeras indivigually and load them up first turn.

That or your looking at the 4E codex

IG had a 4E codex?

don_mondo
07-10-2009, 03:11
IG had a 4E codex?

Nope. There have been three so far, 2nd, 3rd and now 5th. For a great deal of 3rd ed, we actually had to use the "black 'dex" that came with the 3rd ed rulebooks and had a mini-dex for every army to get us by until they released a real codex. IIRC, IG were the last one done................

eyescrossed
07-10-2009, 03:12
IG had a 4E codex?

My exact thoughts :eyebrows:

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
07-10-2009, 03:54
In the past edition, I always felt they were too vulnerable and never used them.

I thought I would give them a try since they count as another troop unit in the new codex. My balanced 1500 point list uses 1 HW squad of lascannons and I have been impressed with them. Between the Russ's, psyker battle squad, Vets in Chimeras and the cheap platoon of 30 bodies, those lascannons are usually ignored long enough to be effective.

Shipmonkey
07-10-2009, 04:16
Nope. There have been three so far, 2nd, 3rd and now 5th. For a great deal of 3rd ed, we actually had to use the "black 'dex" that came with the 3rd ed rulebooks and had a mini-dex for every army to get us by until they released a real codex. IIRC, IG were the last one done................

There were two 3rd ed IG books.

Dexter099
07-10-2009, 05:41
And even better than a Lascannon against Av10-11.

11% chance for an autocannon to destroy an AV11 vehicle, same for a lascannon.

Against AV10...

Autocannon has a 17% chance of killing it.

Lascannon has a 14% chance of killing it.

But let's see how HB's do versus Autocannons when shooting at an AV 10 vehicle.

An Autocannon has a 17% chance, while

an HB has an 8.3% chance.
while a missile launcher has a 8% chance of killing an AV 11 vehicle, and a 11% chance of killing an AV 10 vehicle.

So, Autocannons are good against
AV 10 and 11 vehicles by a small margin, and have no other use.

I suggest loading up on Lascannons and Heavy Bolters instead. If you want, then go ahead and get one Autocannon squad, but any more and you compromise your army's effectiveness.

Lord Cook
07-10-2009, 14:19
So, Autocannons are good against AV 10 and 11 vehicles by a small margin, and have no other use.

For a start, don't underestimate the difference. It may not seem that way from the numbers, but a difference of 3 or 4% does make a meaningful impact, especially when firing multiple weapons. Given that a single heavy weapon probably won't do anything to a vehicle, we have to fire in multiples so the small differences start to add up.

Secondly, you've only taken 'destroyed' results into account. That's all very well, but against a Rhino I'm just as happy to immobilise. Against a Land Speeder knocking off weapons can be crucial. You can't just look at one aspect and proclaim autocannons to be inferior.

Against Av10, as you said, autocannons are better.

Against Av11, while the chance to destroy may be the same, the autocannon has better chances of glancing as well.

Against Av12, both weapons have the same chance of inflicting damage. However the lascannon has more chance of that damage being from a penetrating result, which will naturally be better. But the autocannon can still compete here, and it's still an effective weapon against Av12. Then there's cost. Autocannons are 10 points. Lascannons are 20. Again, add that up over three or four weapons and it's a significant difference again.

Av10 and particularly Av11 vehicles are transports. It's difficult to overestimate just how important it is to destroy these at range. A weapon that specialises in destroying transports can hardly be considered a poor choice just because that's its main specialty.


I suggest loading up on Lascannons and Heavy Bolters instead.

More to the point, why would anyone choose heavy bolters? The whole point of a heavy bolter is to deal with large numbers of light infantry, but it can't even do that effectively. Not only have horde armies like Orks and Guard found their basic troops getting cheaper, but the usefulness of cover has increased. Now your heavy bolter will score perhaps one or two hits, with maybe one wound, and a 50/50 chance of killing a single model. Orks won't care about that. The only time the heavy bolter will ever redeem itself is if it finds a unit of high value 4+ save troops outside of cover, like Genestealers or Aspect Warriors. Hardly a very large niche to specialise in?

Compare that to mortars. Mortars cost less than the heavy bolter, have 12" longer range, can fire without LOS when necessary, and will almost always score more hits against large units with dozens of models. Lesser AP is rarely relevant given that heavy bolters hand away cover saves all over the place, while mortars never do unless the target is in area terrain. And just as a small bonus, the mortars can Pin, assuming you ever face Guard or Tau.

Mortars for hordes, a mix of autocannons and lascannons for light and medium vehicles, and leave the heaviest vehicles to meltaguns and multi-meltas.

laudarkul
07-10-2009, 15:22
More to the point, why would anyone choose heavy bolters? The whole point of a heavy bolter is to deal with large numbers of light infantry, but it can't even do that effectively. Not only have horde armies like Orks and Guard found their basic troops getting cheaper, but the usefulness of cover has increased. Now your heavy bolter will score perhaps one or two hits, with maybe one wound, and a 50/50 chance of killing a single model. Orks won't care about that. The only time the heavy bolter will ever redeem itself is if it finds a unit of high value 4+ save troops outside of cover, like Genestealers or Aspect Warriors. Hardly a very large niche to specialise in?

Yes sir... But against some MC's with Bring it Down? There are more shots which can be twin-linked so more chances to inflict some wounds...Ok I know that I have to twin-linked an AC HWS in order to compared with the 3xHB, but until now the 3xHB proved to be a good weapon.

Sgt John Keel
07-10-2009, 15:39
If you want to kill MEQs, then yes, Autocannons are better than Heavy Bolters at doing this

How? Ceteris paribus, heavy bolters cause 12/6 wounds per turn and an autocannon 10/6 wounds per turn versus S4, before saves.


Yes sir... But against some MC's with Bring it Down? There are more shots which can be twin-linked so more chances to inflict some wounds...Ok I know that I have to twin-linked an AC HWS in order to compared with the 3xHB, but until now the 3xHB proved to be a good weapon.

Enhancing both weapons in the same way, where there previously was no difference, will naturally yield the same effectiveness increase.

Bunnahabhain
07-10-2009, 16:25
How? Ceteris paribus, heavy bolters cause 12/6 wounds per turn and an autocannon 10/6 wounds per turn versus S4, before saves.

Range. Those 12" can make a huge difference.

Also, the massive increase in effectiveness at getting them out of their tranports of the autocannons is not to be underestimated. Anything that holds them at range for longer is useful, as it gives you time and space to get yourself in position, and thump them with ordnance. heavy bolters simply don't have potential synergies of this order.

Units don't work in isolation, don't think about them in isolation.

Brady
07-10-2009, 19:19
Missile missile missile launchers. Better than autos at tanks amd better than autos at infantry

boogle
07-10-2009, 19:37
Missile missile missile launchers. Better than autos at tanks amd better than autos at infantry

Can you back this sweeping statement up?

Lord_Crull
07-10-2009, 21:41
I myself use autocannons and lascannon primarily. since most of my local club's armies are MEQ's.

Promethius
07-10-2009, 22:04
Lascannon and mortar heavy weapon squads are quite useful imo. For grunt squads I stick with a mix of the other three options; all have their uses. Mortar squads are brilliant for hiding in cover and causing general nuisance. Lascannon heavy weapon squads may be expensive, but are good anti-tank and to shoot at them, in cover, means ignoring the squadren of leman russ tanks and screen of sentinels that are a more pressing priority.

don_mondo
07-10-2009, 22:51
I myself use autocannons and lascannon primarily. since most of my local club's armies are MEQ's.

Those are my personal preferences as well.

DaSpaceAsians
09-10-2009, 15:45
If I want weight of fire should I take heavy bolters or autocannon?
As for AT, I prefer lascannon simply for pure flavor reason but is it somewhat viable?

Sgt John Keel
10-10-2009, 03:02
Range. Those 12" can make a huge difference.

Also, the massive increase in effectiveness at getting them out of their tranports of the autocannons is not to be underestimated. Anything that holds them at range for longer is useful, as it gives you time and space to get yourself in position, and thump them with ordnance. heavy bolters simply don't have potential synergies of this order.

Units don't work in isolation, don't think about them in isolation.

I'm not saying the heavy bolter is a better all round weapon, it clearly isn't. What I'm asking how the autocannon is specifically better against marine equivalents (meaning T4 3+ save, transports are not relevant). The range issue is true in all other cases as well, so it brings nothing new to the specific comparison.

bigcheese76
10-10-2009, 13:58
I usually still take heavy weapons teams in larger games. If i do take them though i take them in heavy weapons squads rather than in infantry squads. I usually take three squads. 1 with 3 Heavy Bolters to deal with infantry, 1 with Lascannons to take out tanks or MCs and 1 with 3 Missile Launchers who can deal with infantry or tanks depending on the shot they fire. In apocalypse I usually put them in the back of a Stormlord and use its 20 fire points.

CKO
10-10-2009, 22:21
Heavy weapons have not lost value, it is just that long range anti-tank is not as appreciated as it once was. I dont know why?

Lord Cook
11-10-2009, 00:33
Heavy weapons have not lost value, it is just that long range anti-tank is not as appreciated as it once was. I dont know why?

Long range infantry-held anti-tank weapons have stayed the same. However cover is more prevalent, tanks in general have gotten significantly cheaper and/or better armoured and the vehicle damage chart is more forgiving. Meanwhile assault has become more destructive now that combat attacks hit on the rear armour, and melta weapons have the new version of the Ap1 rule, making them significantly more destructive.

It's only natural that given these changes the emphasis would switch towards close range solutions.

Finn
11-10-2009, 03:08
Mortars for hordes, a mix of autocannons and lascannons for light and medium vehicles, and leave the heaviest vehicles to meltaguns and multi-meltas.

A man after my own heart.

I see don mondo and Crull use this layout as well. You simply can't get any better than autocannons with a lascannon team (or two, depending) thrown in. Missile launchers have their uses, but a couple of people have overstated them. Useful if you're stuck on what weapon to give a squad (I don't think I've ever fielded them in a HWS), because if you don't know whether you want punch or anti-horde it can do a bit of both. Autos are the best weapon in the codex by far, and always have been. And Grenade Launchers :p. I saw someone said they wished they could do the GL/Autocannon setup in every squad - me too buddy, me too...I'm close though.

It's easy enough to get them cover saves. If you're worried about ID enough, you can always stick a ML in your lascannon or autocannon team to soak an ID wound you don't want going elsewhere, but it's not something I'd swear by. My typical HWS loadout is one with lascannons and one with autos, perhaps a second with lascannons because I have 6 and they sure as hell aren't making it into my standard squads. They do tend to get shot at, but they'll get some shots off first - you have to take risks in war.

Mine rarely get shot at by anything other than Dark Reaper-style units: long range but without sufficient strength to crack AV12. All the stuff that would be IDing my teams is typically shooting at Chimeras or Hellhounds, letting the teams do some damage.

Rduncan
11-10-2009, 06:56
I enjoy a mix of las cannons and auto cannons in my army. Mind you I am taking a platoon as a support option for DH so that may be different. I find that if my platoon is laid out all together, and my grey knights are far off the the side, then my oppenent seems to be attracted to advancing on my imp guard and leaves my other guys alone, letting them get into close combat.

Lord Cook
11-10-2009, 12:37
It's easy enough to get them cover saves...
Mine rarely get shot at by anything other than Dark Reaper-style units: long range but without sufficient strength to crack AV12. All the stuff that would be IDing my teams is typically shooting at Chimeras or Hellhounds, letting the teams do some damage.

Hmm, I appreciate the experience. The new rules have completely put me off Heavy Weapons squads because of their vulnerability to ID, but I may give them another look.

Escaflowne_Z
11-10-2009, 13:34
Heh, I've got GL/autocannon combos for all seven of my line squads. Be jealous! I absolutely love those models and that imagery.

Finn
11-10-2009, 16:44
Hmm, I appreciate the experience. The new rules have completely put me off Heavy Weapons squads because of their vulnerability to ID, but I may give them another look.

I should probably qualify my "all the stuff" and say that sometimes they get shot by things like scatter lasers :p. However, in the metagame around here, that's maybe a serpent or two and not all that worrisome. I have redundancies for all the units in my army, so I'm never bothered too much when my relatively cheap autocannon HWS gets whittled down or killed.

I also field my company command platoon with a lascannon or missile launcher and don't mount them - deployed near my weapons teams instead. If my opponent is thinking about ID, sometimes they shoot at them trying to get the officer...which I'm fine with.

Thornz
11-10-2009, 20:40
Mech Guard and Heavy weapons squads at long range work quite well.

Place an AC Heavy Weapons squad at, or near your deployment edge in a Fully mech for 1/2 mech list and away you go.

The reason for this is that AC - while still being relativly cheap - provide some amazing firepower especially with "Bring it down", and don't tend to attract strength 6+ weapons in the first 3-4 turns because they are ALL shooting at your glut of Chimera Hulls...

AC HWT also provide something that Chimeras or MBT don't provide very well in a mech list, and that is good transport popping power.