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Tulun
18-01-2006, 03:26
Okay, here's what I am wondering...

Which do you think is the better buy? esspecialyl below 2k (1 rare choice).

Waywatchers are definately great, but they take up your only rare slot. They are solid, but also expensive.

Scouts are a bit of a downgrade from waywatchers, but they take up a core instead. This could be a huge deal, esspecially if you want to add a Treeman or Great eagle in lower games.

I haven't bought any models, I'm just trying to get a feel. I'll probably end up getting both units (even if I just use them for fun), but I was wondering what would usually be better off overall.

m1s1n
18-01-2006, 05:30
I think that Warhawk riders can do the same thing that a Great Eagle can do--possibly better.

I don't know how great a Treeman is, but a lot of people think they are wonderful tanks.

Remember--scouts are only S3 with their shots, so they are not going to be as effective as the Waywatchers. When you pay for Waywatchers you are buying a more effective machine. You just need to decide if the points are worth it.

Tulun
18-01-2006, 06:58
I think that Warhawk riders can do the same thing that a Great Eagle can do--possibly better.

I don't know how great a Treeman is, but a lot of people think they are wonderful tanks.

Remember--scouts are only S3 with their shots, so they are not going to be as effective as the Waywatchers. When you pay for Waywatchers you are buying a more effective machine. You just need to decide if the points are worth it.


I've heard different things about Great Eagles / Warhawks, not really sure which is better ;) It seems the Great Eagle is much more expendable if something bad happens, though. Of course, the rare slot is the thing.

The Treeman seems decent. Stubborn helps. Also gives tree-singing with no dice used, which is always helpful. Best tank Wood elves could field, I think.

I think the str 3 won't generally be the thing; waywatchers are the same, they just get the potential killing blow (not too reliable, but nice anyway). It's really more about what to use a rare slot on in under 2k, it seems :)

thommo
18-01-2006, 07:30
i've only been playing wood elves for about 5 games using a mix of 1K & 2K lists...from this limited experience, the treeman seems to have been invaluable! It's a seriously well powered, solid and dependable unit which, with it's strangle root and tree singing abilities, allows some potentially decent range attacks as well as solid cc.

each time i've used waywatchers they haven't made their points...i think i'd rather "upgrade" some glade guard and keep the rare slot free.

i haven't used an eagle yet but from what i've read it seems to be a bit of throw away unit on it's own. i'd rather use warhawks which can hit and run and give ranged attacks and again keeps a rare slot open (might use one as a mount for a hero though??)

speedygogo
18-01-2006, 07:45
The big thing that a treman brings to the game is terror. That all important psycology test wins games. You can hide him from shooting in the woods and move the forrest with tree singing. I would go with a treeman with only 1 rare slot.

Tulun
18-01-2006, 07:52
I definately want to playtest a treeman too, but I will keep that in mind :)

Neknoh
18-01-2006, 08:15
What is this obsession with units "making their points back"?

It's about how much you can disrupt your opponent, killing off a screen of Warhounds in front of a group of Minotaurs with your Waywatchers is gonna make the point for 1 WW back, however, this means that your army suddenly can shoot at the Minotaurs and your opponent have to regroup.

Also, Waywatchers can actually fight if they have to take out a Warmachine or do a desperate flank-charge to force an overrun of those Chosen Knights of Khorne into a wood on round 1.

What also must be remembered is that if you tell your opponent you're using Waywatchers, he's gonna take a LOT of steps to ensure his Knights doesn't wind up anywhere near where the waywatchers may appear, often placing them far from any kind of forrest in his deployment zone, meaning that those Knights suddenly have to charge across the field and get through a lot of shooting, some of it which might even be str4. They also now have to watch out for Treekin and Wild Riders.

Also remember, that although the Glade Guard Scouts may have the Banner of Zenith, Way Watchers deploy so deeply into the ranks of the enemy that they still hampers as good as the entire army on turn 1 instead of giving the enemy 1 round of Marching.

Tulun
18-01-2006, 17:51
Interesting. I heard they were good for march-blocking, due to their deployment rules.

It seems hard to say which is better to take, with just 1 rare slot to choose from.

Pravus
19-01-2006, 11:00
Scouts are better than Waywatchers simply because they perform the same role for less points. The advantage of both units is in deployment and interdiction; any ability beyond that is secondary really. Their ability to interdict the enemy is likely to be at the top of an enemy general's hitlist. Neither Scouts nor Waywatchers are going to last long in any melee so I'd rather save the points I'd spend on Waywatchers by using the cheaper scouts.

Yak
19-01-2006, 12:34
@Pravus: Same role? Methinks not. They are similar, but scouts are much more of a marchblocker and annoyance. They can take out a lone wizard but soccasionally struggle against war machines. Waywatchers, on the other hand, with their additionla hand weapon are literally twice as good in combat. They can take out small missile units (hand gunners, DE RXBelves) in turn two. They can target characters or knights with their lethal shot. They don't perform the same role really when you look at it.

Latro
19-01-2006, 13:13
Well ...

- What role do you need them for?

If it's just march-blocking, scouts will do fine. If you're planning on making mayhem in enemy territory you'll be better off with waywatchers.

- How bad do you need the other rare-choices?

Is the Treeman essential to your plan? ... no waywatchers then. The same goes if you definately need that eagle for re-directing purposes.


In short. It's not a question of who's better, but about what you want your army to do.

:cool:

Tulun
19-01-2006, 19:06
Interesting. Makes for army selection even more annoying ;)

It's too bad, because I actually like all 3 rare slots, to boot.

Tulun
19-01-2006, 19:07
Well, here's a fun question in specifics...

Against a Knight heavy (is there any other really?) Bret Army, what would generally be the best to take?

Lizardman army (probably with plenty of Skink Priests) ;)

Latro
19-01-2006, 20:21
Well, here's a fun question in specifics...

Against a Knight heavy (is there any other really?) Bret Army, what would generally be the best to take?

- I wouldn't take WayWatchers against a Bret knightly army. The occasional killing blow they provide will hardly put a dent in all those armoured lances.

- Glade Guards are useful because they give the knights a reason to hurry up a bit ... that and they're not that expensive.

- You will need something to make sure that the knights end up where you want them to be by either providing a dead-hard blocker (Treeman) or something to re-direct or flee from a charge (eagle, glade guards, glade riders).

- Finally there has to be something to crack open all those armoured knights. A cheap unit of dryads in the flank, an alter noble wielding a huge sword ... you'll figure it out.


Lizardman army (probably with plenty of Skink Priests) ;)

- Make sure you're magic defence is strong enough ... maybe try BranchWraiths, that adds dispel-dice and gives a bit more punch to your dryad units as well.

- Get dryads, these things are deadly.

- Get Glade Guards ... several volleys of arrows raining down every turn really make a difference and don't cost that much. They also claim your own table-corners while the rest of your army is hunting lizards on the other side.

- Maybe some of those pigeon surfers? Not sure if they're worth it, but they look funny.


:cool:

Tulun
23-01-2006, 07:01
Do you think there is any serious way a Wood Elf army could beat a Bret or Lizardman army at 500 points?

We have been trying games out at that level (see if we even like the game). I can't see them doing well, esspecially against Brets... as I understand it, Wood Elves need many small units (generally) to be effective, as they bait or allow a unit to be lost for greater gain...

Latro
23-01-2006, 08:54
Do you think there is any serious way a Wood Elf army could beat a Bret or Lizardman army at 500 points?

We have been trying games out at that level (see if we even like the game). I can't see them doing well, esspecially against Brets... as I understand it, Wood Elves need many small units (generally) to be effective, as they bait or allow a unit to be lost for greater gain...

Playing 500 pts isn't the best way to experience how the game goes. It gives you a feel of the mechanics (dice-rolling), but for things like multiple-unit tactics you're better off playing 1000 pts battles.

For 500 pts against Brets?

Noble on an eagle (very fast, equiped with great weapon)
Lots of dryad units (about 100 pts per unit)
Wardancer if you can afford it

... pray for a lot of terrain

:cool:

Tulun
23-01-2006, 19:46
Won't be a lot of terrain, that's for sure ;\

Tulun
24-01-2006, 01:05
He also takes nasty 20 skirmishing archers. Wood elves may be good archers, but man, Bret ones are good for way cheaper. Good thing they only get 1 unit of those skirmishing ones...

shadowprince
24-01-2006, 04:37
Personally I use both, about 2 units of scout and two units of waywatchers in a 2k game. And 2 scouts 1 watcher between 1000-2000. As I find scouts extremly effective when used correctly being able to carry out mutlile missions. Treemen are great but more expensive than two units of waywatchers, normally save a treeman for 2250 games. Treekin work very well, so I normally grab them for my tank roll.

Scouts are great for march blocks mages and sacrific, for example sendg two units at a hellblaster to knock it out. While Waywatchers I like to get behind the lines knocking off knights, lone characters, etc, as you should get about 1 KB a turn.