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Tenken
05-10-2009, 05:01
I started playing the game fairly recently and I've found that I've absolutely fallen in love with the magic phase. It just seems like the most rewarding, variable, and fun phase to me. So now I gots to know, who has the strongest magic phase? (outside deamons, cuz I've never liked them and I abhor the new fluff and rules)

I have lizardmen and a slann can really dominate the magic phase. But he's only one man... err toad man thing. Skink priests are nice and all, but being limited to only lore of heavens kinda sucks (not that heavens is bad, just that the lack of variety is bad). It seems to me like HE might have the strongest magic, but I really haven't taken a hard in depth look at all the armies.

So when I say strongest what I mean is, who can field the most, highest level mages, and have the greatest variety of lores? After all what's the point of having 4 wizards if they're all just gunna cast the same spell a half-dozen times? Also the inclusion of magic items and abilities to pump the magic phase. Assume ~2000 point games for max amount of characters.

I love my lizardmen, but when I get ready to pick a second army I'd like it to be magic heavy. Again, excluding daemons.

IronBrother
05-10-2009, 05:07
Tzeentch at the moment. But we'll see what the Skaven do.

Tenken
05-10-2009, 05:08
Tzeentch at the moment. But we'll see what the Skaven do.

No daemons! I hate everything about them. From their lame new fluff, to their god-awful models, to their broken rules. I wouldn't field a daemon army if you paid me... Okay maybe if you paid me.

Marshal Torrick
05-10-2009, 05:17
Vampires have a lot going for them in the magic phase:

-Tons of PD if wanted
-Most of the spells are good
-Make new models
-Can guarentee movement spells

Tenken
05-10-2009, 05:19
Vampires have a lot going for them in the magic phase:

-Tons of PD if wanted
-Most of the spells are good
-Make new models
-Can guarentee movement spells

Vamps only have access to one lore though, don't they? Or did I miss that somewhere.

Lijacote
05-10-2009, 05:35
No daemons! I hate everything about them. From their lame new fluff, to their god-awful models, to their broken rules. I wouldn't field a daemon army if you paid me... Okay maybe if you paid me.

Such a fine contribution.

Tzeentch Daemons are probably the strongest in the magic phase since they can be built to only really work in that one. Even then, what exactly is best? Vampires can summon new troops and might have the best movement spell in the game, not to mention the repeating spells, High Elves can make casting very difficult and so can Lizardmen, Skaven by the looks of the rumours have some sick spells and Warriors of Chaos have the Gateway.

I wouldn't too readily judge the daemons as the best, or even the strongest in the magic phase.

Boondock
05-10-2009, 05:36
They can be given a power that allows them too choose their lore from the original 8 (while still keeping the basic raise spell). Only useful on a Lord level character, but still great.

Toads77
05-10-2009, 05:37
with vampires one of the blood lines allow you to take any lore and know all the spells, except for life.

Tenken
05-10-2009, 05:39
with vampires one of the blood lines allow you to take any lore and know all the spells, except for life.

Oh okay. I must've missed that, that's really awesom actually because I really like VC.

Paraelix
05-10-2009, 06:17
Strongest magic phase is likely to lean towards Dark Elves. They have no limit on number od dice per spell, the have access to fire, metal, shadow, death and their own lore. Furthermore, all mages know a spell to gain more power dice.

Condottiere
05-10-2009, 08:24
Daemons, Vampires, Dark Elves, Lizards all have potentially powerful magic phases; I suspect that Skaven will have one as well.

PeG
05-10-2009, 08:36
HE can also have a good magic phase, not as extreme as some of the others but all wizards have access to all basic lores as well as high magic. Together with a decent collection of magical items they can build a strong magic phase or shut down the opponents.

Flogger
05-10-2009, 09:11
Dark Elves! Hands down!

A level 4 sorceress on a pegasus with focus familiar behind a shield of harpies is seriously LAME, but fantastic nonetheless!
On top of this 2 level 2s with fun stuff like tome of furion and sacrificial dagger you're looking at a magic phase that can dish out 13 power dice every turn, not bad at all.
Even tzeentch daemons have problems reaching that, and if the heralds do chose power vortex they're still stuck with a much worse lore than Dark Elves.

SneakyChris
05-10-2009, 09:29
Ogre Kingdoms..........only joking.

I run a nasty VC spell list, with my WOC running a close second. I opted for nurgle but if I could remodel the miniatures again I would have to go for tzeench. That gateway is uber.

cant lizardmen get a lvl 4 and 3 lvl 3's into a 2000pts...... that seems pretty good.

On another note when playing against empire a wizard with the pit of shades can be the strongest guy on the table....... bye bye stank.

Gaargod
05-10-2009, 11:08
Lizardmen can indeed get Lv4 and 3 lv3s into 2k. Only one of the lv3s will actually know 3 spells, and all of them except for the toad are stuck with lore of heavens, and the rest of your army will basically be non existant. And you will be slapped. Stick with slann + engine + other hero (either skink priest for more magic, scar vet for close combat niceness or skink chief with warspear on steggy to kill anything it charges).

VC can be lots of power dice (theortically 18 in 2k, realistically 15 for having lv2s who can raise past starting numbers rather than lv3s with 3 dice). Mind you, its not actually an interesting way of playing...

DE can have a very passable magic phase, if somewhat risky.

WoC can abuse the magic phase horrifically. Gateway on a lord level (5 spells) is one of the best spells in the game, all the lv2s can spam buboes (amazing character deleter) or flickering fire to remove things. Interesting, if you take tzeentch it is possible to do a RAF with them all on discs, probably with skull of katam and puppet in there. About half your army, but very hard to kil and high output (stillget 3 units of frenzied knights in there too).

Aza
05-10-2009, 12:41
I would opt for Dark Elves since DoC is out of the question.

As much PD as you want per magicuser and a spell similar to Boon of Tzeentch to gain extra PD's seems a good reason to put them that high. Combined with multiple Lores and some Bound spells which you can use to dran DD or get them through when the DDpool is empty makes them, imho atleast, some of the strongest magicusers.

VC has a totaly different way of using the magicphase since it's less focussed on the opponent but more on helping your own army (as in raise or heal units).

Can't comment on Lizardmen since i have played with or against them.

Harwammer
05-10-2009, 18:34
I don't like having my magic phases ended early by miscasts so I like playing magic heavy with WoC (due to puppet mod) or, 'shock, horror', OnG (as their miscasts hurt the caster rather than the phase).

dozk
05-10-2009, 22:09
I playd a tornament resently with 3000p armys. the only restriction exept normal rules was that you cudent have more than 1500p charecters.
The wining player had a Lisardmen army containing 2 lev 4 slams and 1 lev 3 enging of the gods. both slams hade the disepline Focused Rumination adding on powerdie to all spells they casting. the slams hade Light and Death magic add to that the enging of the gods power and you have 3 areaeffect spells that clines upp around the mages. that was hard to face. 13+X power dies. that was nott fun

(my Khorn BoC withe 12 dispell dies hade a realy bad time.. but I made a draw, witch was his badest game)

Amlesh
05-10-2009, 23:50
Lizardmen with Engines and Focused Ruminations, Vampire Counts completely decked out for a magic phase, Dark Elves and the Power of Darkness Spells, and Warriors of Chaos (Tzeentch or Nurgle) with their stupid Puppet can all have a very nice magic nice. Some others that are good to awesome are High Elves (they have Drain Magic, Vaul's Unmaking, and Flames of the Pheonix), Skaven with Warp Lightning spamming, and (yes, I am actually saying this) Empire. I say Empire because they can have a Level Four with three Level Two's. That's a lot of dice regardless of what lore they take, and if they take Fire it can cause a lot of damage in a hurry. They could also go with Priest bound spam. They have no chance of miscasting and get some pretty cool effects (making units unbreakable, healing wounds, rerolling hits and wounds, etc.).

Condottiere
06-10-2009, 02:02
At 2K DoW could equal Empire with two Lord Wizards (General plus Dark Emissary) and one second level, but lack the powerful arcane items.

StarFyreXXX
06-10-2009, 02:09
chaos demons tzeentch Kairos/Horror list by far in terms of destructive power. Vampires probably for most annoying and very resiliant phase...

Lizardmen have some anti magic but overall, their magic phase isn't very powerful in terms of overall impact. It will do some damage or some cool stuff depending on the lore, but overall, no where close the impact on the game as demons or vampires.

Sanjay

Eternus
06-10-2009, 10:09
Ok, how about stiring this thread up - Dwarfs!

I think the Dwarfs have the strongest magic phase, because no-one can shut down their opponent's magic phase like the Dwarfs. We've heard about all the armies that are top notch spell casters and have various special rules to improve their casting abilities, but what good is that against the anti-magic of a Dwarf army that is chosen specifically to kill the enemy magic phase?

With many armies that are good with magic, it tends to make up a good part of their tactics and offensive power, but the Dwarfs can kill the enemy just fine with no magic, so the magically powerful armies would suffer more at the hands of the Dwarf anti-magic army of Banned Sparkly Things than those that rely less on magic.

EndlessBug
06-10-2009, 11:24
Eternus, I'd argue that. A Lizardmen army with a slann, engine and lone priest could shut down any magic phase easily, while still having a destructive one themselves.

Slann
- Becalming, BSB, stupidity banner, cupped hands, rumination, mystery

S priest
- Engine, lvl 2, scroll, tepok

S priest
- lvl 2, scroll, diadem

9 (potential) DD and 2 scrolls with discard 6's on one mage and stupidity to every mage within 18" of the Slann.

While still having 9+ PD.

Arguably the strongest magic phase.

Eternus
06-10-2009, 11:32
Eternus, I'd argue that. A Lizardmen army with a slann, engine and lone priest could shut down any magic phase easily, while still having a destructive one themselves.

Slann
- Becalming, BSB, stupidity banner, cupped hands, rumination, mystery

S priest
- Engine, lvl 2, scroll, tepok

S priest
- lvl 2, scroll, diadem

9 (potential) DD and 2 scrolls with discard 6's on one mage and stupidity to every mage within 18" of the Slann.

While still having 9+ PD.

Arguably the strongest magic phase.

Well fought my friend! Though in response I would say that as the Slann is key to many Lizardman armies, the Dwarfs would only have to carry enough anti-magic to give the multiple war machines time to turn the Slann into a nasty smear on the battlefield. Maybe take one or two turns if done right.

I would like to see a battle between a magicked-up Lizards army vs an anti-magicked-up Dwarf army - it should be a good match up, what with both sides having top quality combat units as well.

StarFyre
06-10-2009, 13:15
See, the discard 6s and stupidity doesn't impress methat much. I tried it against some vampires 2 weekends ago...I could choose 1 wizard..out of what..he had like 4!?!?! Not only did he NOT roll a 6 for that wizard, everyone else pounded me..pit of shades 2 stegadons and a slann unit/temple guard, and the vampire lord on the dragon just flew around picking fights and magicing whatever he wanted...

Like..with average to above average rolls, those 2 powers may not help you (as they are based on something that may or may not happen, a wizard within range OR you picking the correct one that triggers the effect), where as, tzeentch magic/vampire magic WILL help you regardless of where they are for the most part (within range of course, but vampires, summoning is always good)

That is how i choose what is a good magic phase or not... You may have the best power ever (ie. you win the gave everytime you roll 20d6 and get 15+ 6s), but good luck getting that consistently enough for it to be useful...

I've had the discard 6s thing help me..but generally, armies I see have quite a bit of magic power, and it may affect one, these demon/vampire/dark elf armies pound you with the other 2 regardless...

Sanjay

Reinnon
06-10-2009, 13:38
In terms of lore - vampires. The necromancy rule alone gives the vampires the best lore hands down in the game - the fact that its on a spell that doubles the movement of a basic undead unit is godly, and raise dead is the perfect tactical spell.

In terms of sheer power - tzeentch, both mortals and daemons. These guys are scary when the magic phase gets going, daemons more so because of fateweaver and horrors.

In terms of flexibility - ignoring fateweaver - lizardmen. Slanns are in my opinion point for point the best all round wizard. Very strong anti magic (i'm a vampire player, and that ignore sixes is very annoying when used on a vampire lord, and nearly impossible to avoid), very strong offense (choose a lore and basically double your dice, thats awesome) combined with a rock hard defense (temple guard are a pain to deal with at the best of times, when theres a frog in the middle of the unit raining death it becomes a threat that must be dealt with) and to top it off - one of the best arcane items of all time (i am of course referring to cupped hands).

Vampires, daemons and lizardmen i feel each can claim the title of the best magic phase. Vampires because of the lore of vampires just being better then the other lores, daemons because theres so much of the stuff with a pretty evil lore, and lizardmen because the slann is the best caster outside of special chars (and even including them he's a close second!) in the game.

StarFyre
06-10-2009, 14:46
The sad part of the slann, his best power (free PD), hero dragon mages of high elves have the same power (although they are limited by # of spells and only fire I think).

I'm thinking, fromthe rumours, skaven may sneak into a 3rd place or just behind lizardmen in your ranking for a 4th...

Sanjay

Tenken
06-10-2009, 16:18
Does stupidity do anything to inhibit enemy spellcasters? I don't remember the rule saying that even if they fail the leadership test (which doesn't seem all to likely, well maybe for brays) it has any effect on magic, or did I miss something?

N810
06-10-2009, 16:27
Does stupidity do anything to inhibit enemy spellcasters? I don't remember the rule saying that even if they fail the leadership test (which doesn't seem all to likely, well maybe for brays) it has any effect on magic, or did I miss something?

Stupid Wizards can't cast spells and move straight forward at 1/2 speed.

StarFyre
06-10-2009, 16:35
Yes, but again, if you see the suggestions for "best casting armies" above..they generally have decent leadership (8+)...so they really won't fail THAT often to make that a game breaker in terms of best magic phase or not.

Against beasts, orcs, or ogres..fine..but not when you are comparing to Vampire Lords, Dark Elf wizards, or *shudder* Kairos and his Tzeentchian legions...

Also within 18, is closer than the range for many spells, so much of the time, they can target you but that banner won'thelp as much. Later in the game it helps more though...

Sanjay

Papawolf
06-10-2009, 16:42
mono-god tzeentch deamons end of.
although lizardmen EOTG lists with their magic which can't be dispelled is pretty nice
Teclis is amazing but he can cast like, 2 spells a turn

Condottiere
06-10-2009, 16:45
Potentially, Teclis can have 12PD allocated, and cast all his six, or even seven spells.

Desert Rain
06-10-2009, 18:01
Tzeentch warriors and daemons, vampires, dark elves, lizardmen and to a less extent high elves all have powerful magic phases. Depending on what you want you're magic to do and what models etc you like I would pick one of the above if you like heavy magic.

Alcibiades
06-10-2009, 19:01
Daemons
Lizardmen
Vampires
Dark Elves
High Elves
Warriors of Chaos (perhaps bumped down a few notches if you're only using Slaanesh)
Empire
Skaven (probably will be bumped up a few notches in the coming weeks)
Tomb Kings
Dogs of War
Orcs & Goblins
Wood Elves
Beasts of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Bretonnians
Dwarves

yoshimo
06-10-2009, 19:10
tzeentch can fit 31 power dice including up to 12 Radius dmg spells while even having an almost horde sized army with max chars in it. Compete with that magic phase if you can

Papawolf
06-10-2009, 19:14
Potentially, Teclis can have 12PD allocated, and cast all his six, or even seven spells.

this is true but you ALWAYS cast on 5 dice with teclis because that is the reason you take him, to get irresistable force castings. there is not much point taking him if you are just going to cast spells on two dice tbh

Papawolf
06-10-2009, 19:17
if you take a beastman army with max levels of magic on bray shamans. max chariots with mark of tzeentch, and max power stones you can pump out something stupid like more than 50 dice in one turn. its a crap army but it wins on amount of power dice possible ^_^

Lordsaradain
06-10-2009, 19:33
My vote is for VC, their magic phase is the overall most versitile and usefull. Tzeentch can be very powerful, but can also be horribly ineffecitve if you roll the wrong spells.

mistrmoon
06-10-2009, 19:50
Lets not forget Beastmen in 6ed, they could pack an absolutly retarded amount of dice into 2k, somewhere in the neighborhood of 27 i think.

Lijacote
06-10-2009, 22:19
tzeentch can fit 31 power dice including up to 12 Radius dmg spells while even having an almost horde sized army with max chars in it. Compete with that magic phase if you can

Please post that "almost horde sized army" with 31 power dice and max characters.

knightime98
06-10-2009, 23:52
On another note when playing against empire a wizard with the pit of shades can be the strongest guy on the table....... bye bye stank.

Am I the only one that caught this? Pit of Shades does not have a Strength value and by rule of the Steam Tank has no effect upon it!
The Steam Tank automatically PASSES all test except initiative test. It is true that the Pit of Shades causes an initiative test - however, it is a SPELL and as such falls under that rule. Only spells with a given strength value have an effect all other SPELL EFFECTS are ignored!
Furthermore, even if it did effect the steam tank - the small template can not cover the entire steam tank - so on a 4+ it would be affected as a partial hit.

-----
Edit: The initiative test comes into play for example when a Giant Thumps with Club. The opponent needs to take an initiative test or suffer 2d6 wounds! The Steam Tank would be toast in that case!

End edit
-----

Moving on to the subject at hand. I really have had much success with Lizardmen and the Gatlin Slann. In conjunction with the Slann, take the Engine of the Gods. This gives you 9PD plus the free dice for each spell the Slann casts (usually about 3). This is for only 2 casters.

Dwarves - Have the best magic phase EVER! They rule! (LOL). Don't forget they (and TK's) generate 2 power dice to dispel remains in play spells!

High Elves - seem to never get it done. Really there most potent spells require atleast 3 dice. So, at best if you have a wizard lord and use both pool dice AND are lucky to get the required casting rolls - you get 2 spells off. The rest of the lower end spells IMO are useless for the most part. Curse of Arrow Attraction, Shield of Saphery is ok but these are not going to win games for you.

Vampire Counts - magic is very very potent and nasty. You can combo these guys to the ends of the earth. Being able to replenish all your models OVER max is HUGE especially with fear causers.

Skaven - is due for their re-release into the 7th edition. Have to wait and see how they introduce these guys back into the powercreep version..

Dark Elves - It is true on 2 accounts these guys can throw any amount of dice for spells. They also can generate dice on a 4+ with each wizard. However throwing dice to get dice means you have a 50/50 to cast it and if you throw 2 dice you run a very small chance of getting a miscast. Only the Black Horror spell is worthwhile. The other spells are okay but not going to be really game changers.

Overall, it is my opinion that the magic phase is overrated for most armies. It is oddly Tomb Kings that give the most trouble. They have the fail safe army. They ALWAYS cast and can do so without miscasts. Very rarely, have I seen an armies magic phase win it for them. Only TK and vampire counts have won this category with any consistency.

yoshimo
06-10-2009, 23:53
Please post that "almost horde sized army" with 31 power dice and max characters.
4 power vortex heralds 8 * 16 horror, 1 * 10,
142 models, almost double the typical 2250 daemon army

Condottiere
07-10-2009, 00:14
What limits spell use in most armies is the possibility of miscasting, with rather dire consequences.

When lots of magic is around, those armies that can avoid casting snake-eyes are potentially the most powerful.

White_13oy
07-10-2009, 01:09
Well, then my Tomb Kings would be most potent casters. Since we don't ever miscast :D . If I could, I could get the equivalent of 16 pd from my HLP w/ Jar, LP, LP, TP, and Casket. On top of that all your casting is at -1. Then depending on what item you gave them, you can add 3 more dice with Staff of Ravening, Khanopi, and the Banner of Undying Legion. Sure we only have 4 spells and one of them is never used, and out raising is horrendous compared to the VC ( 2d6 take the highest for basic skellies only) but we can get double movement and strike/shoot an extra per turn. But of coarse this is in a 2000/2250 list where about half your points is in characters, but that is usually how TK lists are made.

Lijacote
07-10-2009, 07:19
4 power vortex heralds 8 * 16 horror, 1 * 10,
142 models, almost double the typical 2250 daemon army

Shame if the enemy deploys an inch from the deployment zone's edge. I really do not see that being a very good army, but I guess that does take the strongest magic phase award when it comes to brute force and dispelling.

yoshimo
07-10-2009, 13:20
Shame if the enemy deploys an inch from the deployment zone's edge. I really do not see that being a very good army, but I guess that does take the strongest magic phase award when it comes to brute force and dispelling.

why is that a problem, march move 8' and your inside the 18' range on your default spell in turn 1.

Lijacote
07-10-2009, 14:35
why is that a problem, march move 8' and your inside the 18' range on your default spell in turn 1.

Oh god damn. I should not even try to do any sort of math, ever I blame sleep deprivation... make it 5". Point was that range will be a problem of some degree with 18" range unless you do some sort of disgusting snaking formation.

I could be wrong. As usual, gah. No doubt my addled mind's vision of the battlefield is somehow flawed.

blackjack
07-10-2009, 18:23
"On top of this 2 level 2s with fun stuff like tome of furion and sacrificial dagger you're looking at a magic phase that can dish out 13 power dice every turn, not bad at all.
Even tzeentch daemons have problems reaching that, and if the heralds do chose power vortex they're still stuck with a much worse lore than Dark Elves. "

Are you kidding? Tz can get into 20 pd at 2k without breaking a sweat. 3x 29 horror blocks + 3 heralds with vortex comes in well under 2k and has 20 power dice and lore of TZ has some of the best magic missiles in the game.

theunwantedbeing
07-10-2009, 19:15
Dark elves can generate 36 dice a turn(13 basic). 44% of the army
High elves 14-16 dice. 37% of the army
Vampires 20 dice(17 basic). 41% of the army
Lizardmen 15-21 dice.72% of the army
Daemons can generate 44(28 basic). 96% of the army
Warriors of Chaos can generate 14 dice a turn. 35% of the army
A level 4 and 3 level 2's generates 12 dice normally.

Take what you will from that.

Alcibiades
07-10-2009, 20:53
What does the % of army mean?

N810
07-10-2009, 21:00
% of the points in the army dedicated to magic,
(out of 2000 points I would imagine)

Acheron143
08-10-2009, 09:24
I'd put my money on Vampire counts IF Dogs of War are allowed. Otherwise I'd probably put my money on the Lizardmen.

Vampire Counts.
2k points
Level 4 Lord
Level 4 Dark Emissary (giving up both your rare slots and 1 hero slot for the priviledge) (as a bonus Vampire Counts is one of the few factions that his spells are even partially fesible in.
Then 2 Level 2s I think to round it out.

Depends on items you can get way way too many PD into play. However, Vampire counts need to carry stuff other than magic as well. So its a balancing at. I found that this set up should be called "bellycutter"

Midevil216
08-10-2009, 15:07
I think the Dark Elf magic phase can be pretty rough atm.

brawnyman1989
08-10-2009, 15:47
I think Tomb Kings can have the most "effective" phase, because those players know exactly what they want to do and how to do it, the only chances of failure are if the opponent dispels their spells. In terms of overall destruction, Tzeentch Daemons by far. The sheer amount of dice makes me cry at night.

Maoriboy007
08-10-2009, 20:17
My vote

1. Tzeench Demons
2. VC and WoC (Tie)
3. LM
4. DE & HE (tie)

TrojanWolf
09-10-2009, 03:05
By what you want in diversity, Empire. They can take any lore from the rulebook and their wizards are cheaper than Chaos Sorcerers or HE Mages (to the best of my knowledge), so I think you may want to apply to the Colleges of Magic.

Condottiere
09-10-2009, 04:15
You also have to consider Boiund spells and Arcane items as well when considering the Magic Phase.

hlaine larkin
10-10-2009, 14:21
incase it hasnt been said yet- lizardmen!

in 2k points you can have
slaan, 6 spells, free power dice for every spell,cupped hands(on a 2+ bounces first miscast ontoan enemy wizard in LOS) (potentially 12 dice if you sue army dice, in reality you use about 9 with free dice)

lvl 2 on engine (3PD plate of tepok, 3 spells)

2 lvl 2 on engine 3 pd
1 with blood statuette (bound spell, take T check on any character (enemy) if they fail- wound no AS, continue til they pass. Hello teclis.. look at this statue.)
1 with rod of thunder

im pretty sure they are 3 cos you are one above in all dice, but not spells *hence plate of tepok)

so in summary-
all 6 spells of ANY of the 8 lores
7 spells (split between 3 wizards) on lore of heavens
15 pd (realistically about 18 with free dice for slaan)
10 DD
uranons thunder bolt (one use) power lvel 6
blood statuette
optional-becalming cognition (makes a wizard in 24" of slaan discard all 6's)
while some VC combos can get more- they just spam undead. this setup gives much more variety!

of course this has one big downside- its about 1600 points, so your army would likely consist of 50 skink skirmishers, 3 engines and a slaan. not great for survivability-but would be funny.

hlaine larkin
10-10-2009, 14:22
At 2K DoW could equal Empire with two Lord Wizards (General plus Dark Emissary) and one second level, but lack the powerful arcane items.

ofc, if you could still take DOW legally- you can take a wizard lord as a rare choice in an empire army ( i think it was rare) meaning in 2k you get 2 lvl 4's and 3 lvl 2's

still only 16 PD :P but more versatility in lores.

last from me for now-

viltich the curseling.
stick him in a WOC army with 3 lvl 2 shamans.
6 dice from shamans.
vilitch can then potentially have as many dispel dice your opponent has ON TOP OF his own dice. so my lizardman combo above could give viltich 10 power dice, and vice versa in the magic phase- he can get as many DD as you have PD- the only problem with him is you run otu of stuff to cast!

Wolf 11x
10-10-2009, 15:50
I think the Wood Elves should get some credit. In 2000 points, you can easily fit:

Level 4 Spellweaver with the Wand of Wych Elm (lets you re-roll dispel dice)
Level 2 Spellsinger with 2 Dispel Scrolls
Level 1 Branchwraith with Cluster of Radiants (+1 DD)

Of course, you could have a 4th character and / or various items, but I find this setup to be the most effective.

9 Power Dice (+ bound Treesinging from Treemen)
7 re-rollable Dispel Dice

You should be able to get off enough Treesinging to block up some movement, while shutting down any really scary spells your opponent can throw at you. Don't forget, Wood Elves do have some nice spells such as Regeneration to an entire unit, upgrading a unit to Fear or Terror, and a 2d6" charge. There is always the Lore of Beasts to choose from as well.

These 3 characters don't take up very many points and the Wood Elf army still functions completely effectively. They can employ the same tactics regardless of characters. Now the Lizardmen for example...

hlaine larkin
10-10-2009, 15:57
yeah i agree to an extent- the lizardman one i think is still versatile and tree singing is useful, but remember your mages are T3 in T3 troops :P i have one in a unit of t4 troops, who you need to kill all before he dies (in theory) and 3 mounted on T6 stegadons with 2+ armour saves :D and a 5+ wardsave against pesky woodelf shooting, from the engine- and remember the other 2 can lower casting values of heavens/fire- just to make it a little bit easier :P

WhiteKnight
10-10-2009, 18:07
Here are THE magic armies of warhammer.

Vampires - have a lot of power dice, and spells that are incredibly nasty. And if you don't take out their casters, then good luck beating their army.

Tzeentch (all tzeentch in general) - Lots of power dice and spells that can get nastier and nastier. Spells that make an enemy unit attack itself is pretty deadly, considering lots of units can have high strength. And WoC tzeentch is incredibly horrific.

High Elves - Their lore is both defensive and offensive. The big deal with the High elf lore, they have a spell for EVERYTHING. They can protect your own units, and destroy others. Archaon is nothing but a chaos lord without his magic items. Vaul's Unmaking makes those magic items gone.

Dark Elves - Easily able to pump out the most dice in the game. Most offensive lore for an elf, making every spell able to kill, and nothing but.

Tomb Kings - Incarnations are annoying to handle. When you perform an incarnation, there's no miscasts or irresistible forces, just a 12 or 2. Throwing out an incarnation makes your units freely move, get free rounds of shooting, free rounds of combat. As a Beasts of Chaos and High Elf player, it is incredibly annoying to handle.

hlaine larkin
10-10-2009, 18:09
Here are THE magic armies of warhammer.

Vampires - have a lot of power dice, and spells that are incredibly nasty. And if you don't take out their casters, then good luck beating their army.

Tzeentch (all tzeentch in general) - Lots of power dice and spells that can get nastier and nastier. Spells that make an enemy unit attack itself is pretty deadly, considering lots of units can have high strength. And WoC tzeentch is incredibly horrific.

High Elves - Their lore is both defensive and offensive. The big deal with the High elf lore, they have a spell for EVERYTHING. They can protect your own units, and destroy others. Archaon is nothing but a chaos lord without his magic items. Vaul's Unmaking makes those magic items gone.

Dark Elves - Easily able to pump out the most dice in the game. Most offensive lore for an elf, making every spell able to kill, and nothing but.

Tomb Kings - Incarnations are annoying to handle. When you perform an incarnation, there's no miscasts or irresistible forces, just a 12 or 2. Throwing out an incarnation makes your units freely move, get free rounds of shooting, free rounds of combat. As a Beasts of Chaos and High Elf player, it is incredibly annoying to handle.


while you have some pretty valid points i still think lizardmen should be here :P and i could possibly put dark elves at the top for magic defence because of the ring of hotek- i, and anyone else i know, doesnt really want to risk blowing there mage up to cast at something in range so hide your units with it :D it messes teclis up as miscast always out does an irresistible. (