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Tokugawa100
05-10-2009, 04:06
Hi all.
Ive been thinking, I know its a shock:D
I love the tyranids but does anyone else hate the fact that there is a race which will destroy the universe and fairly easily.
I like all the races because they have flaws as to why they cant take over the universe.

Marines:
Pros: Hugely powerful, super humans.
Cons: Devoted entirely to the Emperor and unable to follow their own ambition, plus too small in number.

Chaos:
Pros: The warp is incontrollable and chaotic being immensely powerful.
Cons: Power is entirely controlled by the effects of the warp and if somehow as the C'tan wish, if the warp was cut off from reality, chaos would cease to have power..

Eldar both Dark and Craftworld:
Pros: Powerful and ancient weaponry, intimant knowledge of the universe and long lived.
Cons: Far too few in number.

Imperium:
Pros:Large numbers, large tanks and did I mention incredible numbers.
Cons: Rebbelion, heresy, mutation and basically crumbling because of their intolerance.

Tau:
Pros: Dynamic, quickly advancing and idealistic.
Cons: Empire is far too small to pose much of a threat to anyone.

Necrons:
Pros: Incredibly ancient and powerful, another race which could cull the universe.
Cons: Slow acting, many tomb worlds havnt activated yet, some are starting slowly giving time to greatly reduce their numbers.

Orks:
Pros: They're Orks. They love fighting, reproduce through spores and highly powerful force of nature.
Cons: Like fighting too much, fight each other and get distracted.

Tyranids:
Pros: Countless number of organisms hurtling towards 40k like an unstoppable fat person charging at a mcdonalds ready to consume anything and anyone in its path. "no offence to any of you jolly people out there"
Cons: Uuuuum, they might lose a couple million organisms in the process, which will be devoured by their own kind and used to make bigger more powerful versions of themselves and go back to killing.

They have no flaw.
Once they get to the galaxy everyone is finished, i dont think even orks could stop them.
I would love for something to happen to them in the next codex like maybe it turns out they dont have as many numbers as first thought, though it is still large.
Or a virus cuts their hives down to far smaller numbers.
Some tyranids gain independance and lead their hordes against their own kind or go on their own agenda.
Something rather then.

Tyranids enter space, eat everything, move on.
Whats your opinion.

Nicha11
05-10-2009, 05:35
Tyranids will be the end of the universe, until the Necrons fully re-awaken.
Or the Emperor gets back up.
Or a bigger black crusade comes.
Or the Eldar god of the dead is born.
Or mankind realises its psychic potential.
Or the Tau get some serious momentum.
Or the Dark Eldar unleash some serious weaponry.
Or a massive Waaagh gets some momentum.
Or.....


Your point is valid in that having an army whose background is "We can't lose, only be delayed" can be a bit boring.

But most armies have something in the works that will end the stalemate and conquer the universe.

GodofWarTx
05-10-2009, 05:41
Dont forget the Hellfire virus as a potential foil to the hive minds all you can eat buffet.

Paraphrasing Trinity from the Matrix movies : Evolve this.

massey
05-10-2009, 05:57
Phhht. The universe is a big place. The nids are tiny in comparison. The most they can really hope to do is eat all life in the galaxy (and then the next one, and so on). That's not really that big in comparison. In a mere few billion years, our stars will start to go out, and then a new round of stars will be born, and new planets will develop with new races. Why, in a billion years this place will be good as new.

genestealer_baldric
05-10-2009, 07:32
well the fact that nids virtually allways get pounded into the dust in every "major" battle
then sent scattering. As much as i love them the way the fluff wagon rolls, even if the current fleets are just scouts the main force will be beaten back by some stupid method such as a gaint bug light hung over the eye of terror.

Harbinger
05-10-2009, 10:19
The Tyranids are not necessarily the end of the galaxy. While they have retained their "Enemy of the Galaxy" feel from older editions, they are by no means invincible. For other examples of galactic threat backgrounds for armies, check out some of the older codecies or even Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned.

The background has shown that they can be stopped via destruction of their hive mind nodes, not always an easy feat, but possible. A Deathwatch team boarded a hive ship and deposited a virus into the Norn Queen, which I believe shut the fleet down to be destroyed. If that entire fleet was destroyed, then whatever evolutionary process the Tyranids use probably didn't evolve an immunity to the virus, so it could be used again.

Exterminatis has been used on planets just before consumption to deny Tyranids their sustanance. A slow process but it still has results.

The Tyranids lack of invicibility on the battlefield is evident in the current stalemate with the Orks.

The Iron Warriors have infected and taken over Tyranid bio-ships through the use of the Obliterator Virus.

They are not invincible, but it wouldn't be 40k if an army didn't pose a threat to humanity and their Codex said "Tyranids are a mild nussiance, barely seen as noteworthy by this galaxy's inhabitants."

Iracundus
05-10-2009, 11:26
The background has shown that they can be stopped via destruction of their hive mind nodes, not always an easy feat, but possible. A Deathwatch team boarded a hive ship and deposited a virus into the Norn Queen, which I believe shut the fleet down to be destroyed. If that entire fleet was destroyed, then whatever evolutionary process the Tyranids use probably didn't evolve an immunity to the virus, so it could be used again.

Actually that specific novel, "Warriors of Ultramar", had the Inquisitor state that the virus they used was specific to the one particular fleet, and that other fleets would be too genetically different for it to have an effect. So no one shot kills all silver bullet for the Tyranid threat.



Exterminatis has been used on planets just before consumption to deny Tyranids their sustanance. A slow process but it still has results.

It had results, but even the largest power in the galaxy, the Imperium, found it could not sustain such losses in worlds.

El_Machinae
05-10-2009, 19:25
The 'nids have no effect on the lifecycle of suns, and so they're not going to end the universe any faster than it normally will extinguish itself. And, all expectations is that the Universe is going to last a lot longer than it's already lasted.

Harbinger
05-10-2009, 19:31
Actually that specific novel, "Warriors of Ultramar", had the Inquisitor state that the virus they used was specific to the one particular fleet, and that other fleets would be too genetically different for it to have an effect. So no one shot kills all silver bullet for the Tyranid threat.



I did not know that, thank you.
In the novel, does it leave the possibilitiy for another virus to be created for a different Hive Fleet?

ChaosBeast
05-10-2009, 19:47
The background has shown that they can be stopped via destruction of their hive mind nodes, not always an easy feat, but possible. A Deathwatch team boarded a hive ship and deposited a virus into the Norn Queen, which I believe shut the fleet down to be destroyed. If that entire fleet was destroyed, then whatever evolutionary process the Tyranids use probably didn't evolve an immunity to the virus, so it could be used again.
"

but every time a norn queen is killed, doesn't her phykic scream trigger the birth of 7 more norn queens? they dont seem to be able to be stopped, but i like it. the whole galaxy is tottering on the brink anyway in the 41st millennium, the tyranids just add to that.
also just because they can, does not mean they will. as an example, a tiger shark could kill a diver, but if that diver punches the shark hard enough in the face, the tiger shark will determine the prey isn't worth it.
all the imerium and everyone else have to do, is make that puncch hard enough

Supreme Archon Orlok
05-10-2009, 19:54
Infect a hive fleet with Nurgle's Rot and see what happens.

If they are attacked by an incurable disease the Tyranids are screwed.

The Tyranids biggest disadvantage is that they are all organic.

ntin
05-10-2009, 20:13
The Chaos gods would never let the Tyranids win. Without humanity empowering the four they are nothing. The Chaos gods can strike the hivefleets with floods of daemons while they are in deep space far away from any biomass to replenish their fallen. The Necrons are on the same page as the Chaos gods. If the hive fleets devour the biomass in the galaxy and move on, the C’tan will starve to death. The Tyranids avoid the Necron tomb worlds for a reason.

Negafex
05-10-2009, 20:24
the necrons are the only ones who can truly defeat the tyranids because their weapons break down and essentialy erase biomass, leaving the tyranids with nothing to devour and rebuild. all other armies leave behind biomass that the tyranids can use to reconstruct their armies and fleets

TheEndIsHere
05-10-2009, 20:42
the necrons are the only ones who can truly defeat the tyranids because their weapons break down and essentialy erase biomass, leaving the tyranids with nothing to devour and rebuild. all other armies leave behind biomass that the tyranids can use to reconstruct their armies and fleets

True and also, chaos can't win vs nids OR necrons, their daemons have special powers vs C'tans but nothing special agaisnt ANYTHING ELSE and nids kinda kill chaos with their shadow in the warp.

How can you attack something that makes you cease to exist?

D-End

Mánagarmr
05-10-2009, 21:34
the necrons are the only ones who can truly defeat the tyranids because their weapons break down and essentialy erase biomass, leaving the tyranids with nothing to devour and rebuild. all other armies leave behind biomass that the tyranids can use to reconstruct their armies and fleets

Daemons don't leave behind "biomass". They go poof for lack of a more detailed explanation.


chaos can't win vs nids OR necrons

This is your opinion, not source stated fact.


How can you attack something that makes you cease to exist?

Where are your sources on that? The "shadow" that the Tyranids create blocks any communication between psykers, because the synapses aura between the entire fleet creates massive "static" essentially; they by no means cause the warp to cease to exist.

Negafex
05-10-2009, 21:51
true that the daemons of chaos dont leave behind biomass, but the sentient races that created and fuel them do, and as those races are devoured, the daemons power will fade and eventually dissapear. even nurgle will fade, as tyranids dont let things rot, they devour and reuse them before they do (or at least before they rot to any degree that would grant nurgle any sort of power).

essentially, the daemons of chaos could defeat the tyranids IF they could keep all the humans, eldar, and other sentient races safe in some kind of protective bubble. but that cant happen, and the daemons source of power would be defeated and consumed even as they fought to prevent it.

like i was saying earlier, the only thing that could defeat the tyranids are the necrons due to several key factors
1- no new life forms to evolve from. the tyranid race would grow stagnant and predictible

2- the necron weapons break down matter with the beams and then transmit the energy back through the beam to power the necron firing it. in this way, they leave NOTHING behind to be salvaged.

Mánagarmr
05-10-2009, 22:26
Chaos has much more of an effect on Tyranid than you're making note of.

The Chaos deities are in absolute control of the warp, something that the Tyranid rely on, just like any other race.

While you can argue it was retconned, Genestealer Cults even used to go so far as worship the Chaos Gods. http://www.monsterup.com/upload/1241616758526.jpg

I stand by the fact that if the Chaos Gods were moved to the point of action against the Tyranid, they'd be more than capable of fighting them.

What chance does an army have of winning a war against the people who have complete control over the medium they use for communication and travel? Because keep in mind, their communication is no different than any other races psychic abilities, psychic nulls can cause a Tyranid force to fall apart from simply stopping their ability to receive orders.

Murphey
05-10-2009, 22:54
In regards to Chaos and Tyranids:

Tyranid fluff states that demons flee before the shadow of the hive mind, and are terrified by it. They see it as a giant warp-predator.

Tyranids have a giant gestalt consciousness residing in the warp, that is the culmination of a galaxy or so of biomass, all thinking in unison. I highly doubt the chaos gods of this galaxy outmatch it.

In regards to Necrons and Tyranids:

Generally, I don't see much reason for Necrons and 'Nids to fight, other than because the C'tan like to eat sentient life, and so do 'Nids. But even if the Necrons and Tyranids fight at length, 'Nids still evolve. Tyranids evolve both through absorbing the DNA of their fallen enemies, and through controlled natural selection. If creature A does not work against Necrons, then creature B or Ab will be sent next time, specifically engineered to work against the Necron threat.

Ultimately, the Necrons (in my opinion) do not adapt fast enough to deal with the 'Nids. Actual necrons are all remnants of the Necrontyr race, so any true death of a Necron cannot be replenished, as there are not more Necrontyr.

Yes, the Tyranids pose a major threat to the survival of all the races in the Galaxy, as well as to the Chaos gods (if for no other reason, than by eating all the sentient races feeding the warp). I don't think they are unstoppable, but they certainly represent the 'crumbling empire' feel of 40k.

I think, out of all the races, Orks probably have the best chance of stopping the 'Nids. Orks and Nids on a planet seem to reach a certain equilibrium constant, with the Orks getting bigger and stronger, with the toughest Orks surviving to spread more spores. Where the Tyranids have a planet of near endless biomass in which to replenish their losses. I think given enough momentum, the Orks could stop the 'Nids, but that would be tough.

~Murphey

Lanparth
05-10-2009, 23:15
Da Orkz would crushum buggy gitz into da ground! Orkz is meant fer fightin' and winnin'! Not just fightin'! You 'umie lot fink yer so smart, finkin' dem Bugz is gonna win 'gainst da might of Gork, and maybe even Mork!? Well we Orkz got anufva fing comin' fer you gitz!

Bring up me boom gun! I want some more of dem buggy bitz to strap onto the side of me wagon!

The Inevitable One
06-10-2009, 03:59
The Tyranids being the ender of the universe seems almost impossible. There is a supposed theory or idea that the universe is expanding at a exponential rate spreading the stars and planets even further away than they are now. They would never be able to catch up with how fast the universe is expanding. Even if they were to consume a galaxy, it would grow back in due time due to nebula being collected over a certain amount of time. The Tyranids like all other things will eventually die out either through them turning back into a primitive state because the Hive Mind is not able to connect to them as well over vaster distances than they are now or evolution will take its toll and there will be some form of genetic defect. To my knowledge, all Tyranids of a particular genus share the same deoxyribonucleic acid which means if one has a genetic defect it is most likely in time they will all have it. This could be wrong be this is usually the case. Not only that but they could die off from starvation. It could take too long to get to another galaxy, and although they supposedly use warp travel and go into a sort of hibernation period they can't stay like that forever. Either that or because since the Tyranid population has risen exponentially they are not able to feed all of them.

Chaos is the only race/entity/army to me that could really destroy the universe. Since the Warp is directly on top or below real space they are able to move about and sprout corruption wherever they wish. To my knowledge they are also immortal, so there really isn't anything that could stop them. Though there is the possibility of stopping them through not having any sentient races. In time though something creatures will evolve, become sentient, and then refuel the Chaos Gods. It would be a very very slow process, but since the Chaos Gods are immortal, they have all the time in the world. Chaos does not so much fear the Tyranids, but tries to avoid them because of the Shadow in the Warp. It is a psychic power that is able to keep creatures from the Warp in the Warp.

Any race could be the ender of the universe, they just have to play their cards right.

The Inevitable One

Negafex
06-10-2009, 05:54
im going to go ahead and quash the "chaos able to destroy the galaxy" theory.

chaos has been named in at least 2 codecies as "the slavers", and in truth that is their ultimate goal. i dont believe chaos could even destroy the galaxy if they wanted to. by the time they killed that many of the sentient life forms that fuel them, the chaos gods and daemons would be so weak that what was left of the dwindling sentient races could stave them off. after which, the races would repopulate themselves and the chaos gods power would be renewed, thus making the life forms slaves to the cycle of madness and chaos.

now, as slavers, i have considered the possibility that the chaos gods might try to enslave the tyranid hive mind, but in the fluff it describes the tyranids hive mind as a warp presence so vast the gods of chaos pale to it like flies to a toad. not an exact quote mind you, i dont have my books on hand, but i can say for a certainty that the warp presence of the hive mind easily dwarfs the collective chaos gods, even united as a whole.

Threeshades
06-10-2009, 06:10
Infect a hive fleet with Nurgle's Rot and see what happens.

If they are attacked by an incurable disease the Tyranids are screwed.

The Tyranids biggest disadvantage is that they are all organic.

At best the fleet tentacle will be severed from the main fleet and die off.

At worst the tyranids absorb the diseased creatures and use the rot as a weapon against everyone else.

Humans, Orks, Eldar and Tau are also all organic. Sure some of them have bionic implants, but those are useless without the living part too.

genestealer_baldric
06-10-2009, 08:18
The background has shown that they can be stopped via destruction of their hive mind nodes, not always an easy feat, but possible. A Deathwatch team boarded a hive ship and deposited a virus into the Norn Queen, which I believe shut the fleet down to be destroyed. If that entire fleet was destroyed, then whatever evolutionary process the Tyranids use probably didn't evolve an immunity to the virus, so it could be used again.."

that was singlehandley the stupidest bit of fluff ive ever read obvioulsy the writers realised that they screwed up the Ultras and came up with this pile of cr*p to save them. There is no way that they would not of got past the guards let alone the norn queen just physikily frying there brains, ventris plot armour working the best it ever has:mad::mad:


If they are attacked by an incurable disease the Tyranids are screwed.

The Tyranids biggest disadvantage is that they are all organic.

Nids are quite imune to viruis except the smurf one, see above rant. And so are very resilinet to chemical attack.


Da Orkz would crushum buggy gitz into da ground! Orkz is meant fer fightin' and winnin'! Not just fightin'! You 'umie lot fink yer so smart, finkin' dem Bugz is gonna win 'gainst da might of Gork, and maybe even Mork!? Well we Orkz got anufva fing comin' fer you gitz!

Bring up me boom gun! I want some more of dem buggy bitz to strap onto the side of me wagon!

yeah who ever wins this battle will cripple the rest of the galaxy, but nids are also adapting spores that attack the ork spores so its not so clean cut at the moment.

Col_Rakka
06-10-2009, 08:32
I still expect the two missing legions coming back to the imperium right behind the tyranids. After countless years of kicking nids around in the other universe, they got bored and are hunting the remnants of the tyranid fleet for their own amusement..

I know.. a long shot :rolleyes:

Harbinger
06-10-2009, 11:25
Concerning Chaos vs. Tyranids, Chaos is not going to be a push over for Tyranids, and is a threat to the Tyranids. While I am not well versed in the books dealing primarily with Tyranids, I am familiar with Chaos sources.

1) As mentioned above, in RT days, Genestealer Cults would turn to the worship of the Dark Powers. I don't know of a printed mentioning of Chaos forces actively turning to the Hive Mind.

2) In Storm of Iron, Tyranid bio-ships were infected with the Obliterator virus and used as transport ships. There was no mention of further attempts, but it is possible for Chaos to overtake Bio-Ships.

3) In the wrap-up of the Medusa V campaign, an in story explanation for the Tyrandis low ranking was that the Hive Mind has difficulty dealing with multiple types of forces at one time. Chaos can provide that varied opposition.

4) The Tyranids can be influenced by the Chaos Gods, as stated in Codex; Daemonhunters. They can act as vessels for Nurgle's plagues, their path of travel manipulated, and Chaos artefacts can affect their behavior.

5) The actions of the Tyranids can feed the Chaos Powers, such as war and bloodshed feeding Khorne, and the number of souls released can attract Daemonic incursions which would occur during the Tyranid invasion, as stated in Codex: Daemonhunters.

6) Codex: Daemonhunters states Tyranids can be "corrupted." It doesn't define the corruption.

These are all taken from printed sources published by GW, which I feel are a good demonstration that the Tyranids are not destined to bowl over the galaxy, and they are subject to being preyed upon and that feelts can be enslaved and/or defeated by Chaos. At the very least, Chaos can manipulate them into working for Chaos.

El_Machinae
06-10-2009, 14:19
As a Hive Mind grows, too, it becomes more likely to become sapient. It might even reach a scale of sapience such that it can communicate with Chaos sufficiently to become corrupted.

If genestealer cults are smart enough to become corrupted, then other things might become intelligent enough over time too.

pookie
06-10-2009, 14:24
Nids are quite imune to viruis except the smurf one, see above rant. And so are very resilinet to chemical attack.

nnot true, theres been recorded instance of at least one brood of stealers infected with a Nurgle esq type disease ( iirc in a SW Novel ).

genestealer_baldric
06-10-2009, 14:58
nnot true, theres been recorded instance of at least one brood of stealers infected with a Nurgle esq type disease ( iirc in a SW Novel ).

Yeah thats true but it been said they are quite immunie to "natural" viruis etc and man made ones but as its allready been established they are not compleatley immune to chaos, so nurgle powerd things could get past there defences.

pookie
06-10-2009, 15:04
Yeah thats true but it been said they are quite immunie to "natural" viruis etc and man made ones but as its allready been established they are not compleatley immune to chaos, so nurgle powerd things could get past there defences.

it could be argued that unless its 'man made' then Nurgles actually responsible for all the disease that plague mankind, although i do take your point, its just how ever that Virus is sourced, the Nids can be effected by them.

i doubt that the IoM or even papa Nurgle could actually wipe the entire Nid race out due to there uniqness in learning/sharing things etc.

Supreme Archon Orlok
06-10-2009, 16:38
Nurgle's rot is a daemonic virus, it can affect the other god's daemons.

But Nurgle's rot attacks the soul as well, do Tyranids have souls?

Bouncl
06-10-2009, 17:34
I don't have my Dex with me, but IIRC, they don't.

Mánagarmr
06-10-2009, 17:44
not an exact quote mind you, i dont have my books on hand, but i can say for a certainty that the warp presence of the hive mind easily dwarfs the collective chaos gods, even united as a whole.

I don't believe this for a second without a proper source, so lets see it.

Brother Librarian, Tigurius, of the Ultramarines can tap into the Hive Mind to read its thoughts and essentially create defenses based upon knowing exactly how the Hive Mind thinks, and where it will strike.

I really doubt a psyker, even though as powerful as he is, who isn't even higher than a gamma could at will link with a being who is as powerful as you claim.

So again, lets see those sources Tyranid players. :D

Iracundus
06-10-2009, 17:51
Brother Librarian, Tigurius, of the Ultramarines can tap into the Hive Mind to read its thoughts and essentially create defenses based upon knowing exactly how the Hive Mind thinks, and where it will strike.

That's not an accurate reading of the SM sources either. Tigurius tapped into the Hive Mind and predicted where the Tyranids might strike. However tapping in is not the same as actually "reading its thoughts" or any real form of communication. If someone could tap into a human mind and say hypothetically read the signals being sent to muscles, they could predict what the body was doing, but that wouldn't mean they were reading the conscious thoughts or abstract thinking behind the movements. There is still no inkling of any higher order thoughts (if they exist of course).

Lunar
06-10-2009, 17:56
This is just one big opinion, i could say Tau will end the universe, but they wouldn't, it's just my opinion. Seriously, your example of how a Tyranid Hive Fleet works is insulting, doesn't make sense and is just terrible.

genestealer_baldric
06-10-2009, 19:52
I don't believe this for a second without a proper source, so lets see it.

Brother Librarian, Tigurius, of the Ultramarines can tap into the Hive Mind to read its thoughts and essentially create defenses based upon knowing exactly how the Hive Mind thinks, and where it will strike.

I really doubt a psyker, even though as powerful as he is, who isn't even higher than a gamma could at will link with a being who is as powerful as you claim.

So again, lets see those sources Tyranid players. :D

he did tap in and the hive mind took over and made him into a sleeper agent to not raise suspssion hes been alllowed a few minor victorys. He will soon bring around the destruction more compleate than possibly imagined.

go on prove me wrong :p

TheEndIsHere
06-10-2009, 20:11
Still think necron or nids are the ones to do it.

The only possible ends are chaos necrons and nids.

The other can't.

The thing is, its rock paper siscors.

Nids beat chaos, chaos beats crons, crons beat nids.

Cept chaos doesn't really beat chaos and necrons don't easilly beat nids.

Choas is weak compared to the other 2.

Please take SM out of this, their plot armour makes things weird, if we add plot armour, the only possible end to the universe will be space marines.

Yes, all 1 million of them...

D-End

D-End

Supreme Archon Orlok
06-10-2009, 21:28
The necrons could beat the 'nids, the necrons aren't fully awakened so they can't bring their full might to bear on the 'nids.

And since the 'nids can't consume necrodermis.

The necrons need no sustenance, the Tyranids require biomass.

Who has the biggest advantage?

Considering also that the Tyranids wouldn't be able to consume their own fallen creatures, 'cause their won't be anything left to consume after gauss weaponry has had a go at the 'nids.

Mánagarmr
06-10-2009, 22:15
That's not an accurate reading of the SM sources either. Tigurius tapped into the Hive Mind and predicted where the Tyranids might strike. However tapping in is not the same as actually "reading its thoughts" or any real form of communication. If someone could tap into a human mind and say hypothetically read the signals being sent to muscles, they could predict what the body was doing, but that wouldn't mean they were reading the conscious thoughts or abstract thinking behind the movements. There is still no inkling of any higher order thoughts (if they exist of course).

That is entirely your opinion; as the C:SM source is extremely limited and could be viewed anyway one wishes.


"His predictions about their movements have been so accurate that it would appear that he has tapped into the Hive Mind - a feat that has driven lesser individuals quite mad."

It never says in any clear way how he goes about divining the information from the Tyranid Hive Mind, so your claim is as much an opinion as my own and equally as inaccurate.

Negafex
06-10-2009, 23:11
on the subject of genestealer cults worshipping chaos, i beleive the main reason for this is that the genestealers themselves are not connected to the hive mind like the rest of the tyranids. genestealers then continue to interbreed with humans and the like, thus further increasing their susceptability to chaos.

as a whole, the tyranid hive mind cannot be corrupted. its the severed links, the tyranids with little or no connection to the hive mind, that can become corrupted.

TheEndIsHere
06-10-2009, 23:13
The necrons could beat the 'nids, the necrons aren't fully awakened so they can't bring their full might to bear on the 'nids.

And since the 'nids can't consume necrodermis.

The necrons need no sustenance, the Tyranids require biomass.

Who has the biggest advantage?

Considering also that the Tyranids wouldn't be able to consume their own fallen creatures, 'cause their won't be anything left to consume after gauss weaponry has had a go at the 'nids.

But nids aren't full powered yet, I see the 3 hive fleets we've seen yet as scout fleets, splinter fleets of the main tyranid army.

Fractals anyone?

D-End

Iracundus
07-10-2009, 02:10
That is entirely your opinion; as the C:SM source is extremely limited and could be viewed anyway one wishes.

It never says in any clear way how he goes about divining the information from the Tyranid Hive Mind, so your claim is as much an opinion as my own and equally as inaccurate.

However I am not basing another argument based on that suspect opinion. You were earlier asserting the Hive Mind cannot be that powerful if Tigurius, a single psyker, could tap into it and allegedly read its thoughts and mind. Trying to argue a point using unsound data renders the point itself unsound. What you've admitted to above is that your evidence for the more limited scale and power of the Hive Mind is not really evidence but your own opinion and essentially fan fiction.

Mánagarmr
07-10-2009, 03:32
However I am not basing another argument based on that suspect opinion. You were earlier asserting the Hive Mind cannot be that powerful if Tigurius, a single psyker, could tap into it and allegedly read its thoughts and mind. Trying to argue a point using unsound data renders the point itself unsound. What you've admitted to above is that your evidence for the more limited scale and power of the Hive Mind is not really evidence but your own opinion and essentially fan fiction.

How is that in any way different than what is being done throughout this whole thread?

I've asked several people for sources on outrageous claims, and they simply ignore the request and make an even grander claim in the next post. Yet you turn a blind eye to these posts, in fact you seem very particular about your nit-picking.

So anyone who argues for Tyranid supremacy doesn't require any proof, but if you oppose that stance, you need exact quotes and undeniable proof.

Your bias is showing.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 03:52
C'mon kids play nice.
:)
The above post is right, perhaps you should be giving proof if demanded or else this is gonna become a really angry thread.
Back on topic please.

P.S. How did Chaos get into this subject, Im talking about Nids.

Iracundus
07-10-2009, 04:15
How is that in any way different than what is being done throughout this whole thread?

I've asked several people for sources on outrageous claims, and they simply ignore the request and make an even grander claim in the next post. Yet you turn a blind eye to these posts, in fact you seem very particular about your nit-picking.

So anyone who argues for Tyranid supremacy doesn't require any proof, but if you oppose that stance, you need exact quotes and undeniable proof.

Your bias is showing.

Perhaps you've been misreading. I have at no point in this thread advocated for Tyranid supremacy. However your arguments against the Tyranids scope and scale has been lacking in sound evidence and your particular citation of the SM Codex was flawed and suspect, making the crux of your argument rest on unsound foundations. If other posters had cited sources that are also suspect or inaccurate, that would also have been pointed out. I have no 40K racial favorites. If you wish to argue your particular point further you will have to find other more sound definitive proof and not personal opinion on which to formulate a point around.

Mánagarmr
07-10-2009, 04:39
Perhaps you've been misreading. I have at no point in this thread advocated for Tyranid supremacy. However your arguments against the Tyranids scope and scale has been lacking in sound evidence and your particular citation of the SM Codex was flawed and suspect, making the crux of your argument rest on unsound foundations. If other posters had cited sources that are also suspect or inaccurate, that would also have been pointed out. I have no 40K racial favorites. If you wish to argue your particular point further you will have to find other more sound definitive proof and not personal opinion on which to formulate a point around.

I never claimed you did advocate their supremacy, I stated you turn a blind eye to radical statements made throughout this entire thread, which insinuates bias nature or lack of knowledge in regards to fluff - you're clearly the ladder if the only post that stuck out as inaccurate to you was mine.

My point can be argued just fine, actually, a Gamma level psyker can thwart the supposedly "vastly superior" being that is the Hive Mind, that is a fact. That alone diminishes its power vastly in my eyes.

FashaTheDog
07-10-2009, 05:07
I don't know what the fuss is all about. The galaxy is so royally screwed no matter how you slice it. Tyranids devour the biomass, Necrons gobble the stars, and Chaos gets the souls. Everyone gets what they want and go home happy. Kinda like a Dead concert.

The real threat would be if the Chaos Gods, C'Tan, and Hive Mind all sat down and decided to see what they could come up with working together. Image, a countless gauss firing, bio-necrodermis coated daemons of Chaos Undivided teleporting through time and space that constantly evolves newer (relatively speaking) and more efficient forms, possibly manipulating the Warp to go back in time and improve upon itself before it created the improvement, creating a paradox that feeds upon itself until even its creators were but shadows of it's might. It would be the Undivided Tyracrons.

pookie
07-10-2009, 13:13
I don't believe this for a second without a proper source, so lets see it.

Brother Librarian, Tigurius, of the Ultramarines can tap into the Hive Mind to read its thoughts and essentially create defenses based upon knowing exactly how the Hive Mind thinks, and where it will strike.

I really doubt a psyker, even though as powerful as he is, who isn't even higher than a gamma could at will link with a being who is as powerful as you claim.

So again, lets see those sources Tyranid players. :D

intresting interpritation of that fluff.

Kozbot
08-10-2009, 04:49
To me this gets to the one thing that really bothers me about 'nids and that's their win button. I think they will 'destroy' the universe or at least eliminate everything because they have the magic 'I win' of biomass.

As written in the fluff 'nids actually aren't biological creatures. Biological creatures take energy to grow and carry out life functions. Nids do not. Biomass is apparently not expended, one can make a Carnifex or a group of 'gaunts all of the same mass it doesn't matter. There is no energy expended in making the more complex critter. That means no strategy works against 'nids. They do not actually expend resources to take a planet. If they weren't magical creatures they could be forced into losing battles where they expend more energy than they gain from eating a planet, that's why real world predators don't succeed on every hunt and actually stop chasing prey at a certain point. Being as 'nids do not expend any energy, because that apparently isn't a concern for them, they can attack infinitely as the only relevant resource to them is biomass, which they can just recycle from the battlefield.

It's even worse when 'nids actually eat a planet. Instead of having to recoup the energy expended growing the various creatures needed to take the planet they just harvest more of this magical thing that is called 'biomass' that isn't at all a form of energy. It's as if a lion chased down a gazelle, eats the gazelle, and now there are two lions, the original one and a new lion the exact mass of what the gazelle was. The so called 'biomass' isn't that at all, biomass is useful to real biological organisms because they transform it into energy. To the 'nids it's closer to magical duplication material.

And that's why the 'nids will win no matter what. Even chaos which actually is magic is more limited by real world considerations than 'nids are.

Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 06:33
To me this gets to the one thing that really bothers me about 'nids and that's their win button. I think they will 'destroy' the universe or at least eliminate everything because they have the magic 'I win' of biomass.

As written in the fluff 'nids actually aren't biological creatures. Biological creatures take energy to grow and carry out life functions. Nids do not. Biomass is apparently not expended, one can make a Carnifex or a group of 'gaunts all of the same mass it doesn't matter. There is no energy expended in making the more complex critter. That means no strategy works against 'nids. They do not actually expend resources to take a planet. If they weren't magical creatures they could be forced into losing battles where they expend more energy than they gain from eating a planet, that's why real world predators don't succeed on every hunt and actually stop chasing prey at a certain point. Being as 'nids do not expend any energy, because that apparently isn't a concern for them, they can attack infinitely as the only relevant resource to them is biomass, which they can just recycle from the battlefield.

It's even worse when 'nids actually eat a planet. Instead of having to recoup the energy expended growing the various creatures needed to take the planet they just harvest more of this magical thing that is called 'biomass' that isn't at all a form of energy. It's as if a lion chased down a gazelle, eats the gazelle, and now there are two lions, the original one and a new lion the exact mass of what the gazelle was. The so called 'biomass' isn't that at all, biomass is useful to real biological organisms because they transform it into energy. To the 'nids it's closer to magical duplication material.

And that's why the 'nids will win no matter what. Even chaos which actually is magic is more limited by real world considerations than 'nids are.

Tyranids are Biological creatures.
They live and have body functions, they are biological.
Each tyranid from the smallest Spore to the biggest Carnifex is a cell of the greater being the Hive Mind.
The tyranids make up the body of the Hive Mind and it is the Hive Mind who expends energy and consumes the biomass.

Biomass is the gruel that the spires and digestive pits convert the planet into consuming both enemy and tyranids.
This consumes new life forms and recycles the nids on the planet.

The Hive Mind does expend energy to consume a planet by sending the Tyranids to kill the enemy but regains it after consuming the dead nids and then gains further energy from consuming the planet.

My gripe is their numbers and the fact that they ARE determined to destroy the galaxy.
There are alot of Orks but they wont work togther.
Necrons are either not active, dead or in permanent stasis.

But Tyranids are innumerable and determined.

Iracundus
08-10-2009, 08:15
The Tyranids do expend energy attacking planets. That is why Kryptman's approach of biomass denial by conducting Exterminatus on planets as the Tyranids overwhelmed the last human resistance was successful in slowing down Leviathan. The Tyranids expended effort for no reward. However it only slowed not stopped the progress of Leviathan because the Imperium could not stop every single world from being consumed.

The amount of energy in the biomass of a life bearing world is huge and far outweighs the expenditure of a single land based battle. A huge portion of this biomass is likely used in the process of consumption itself as things like spires and rippers require biomass and energy to create and maintain. In turn, another large portion is likely consumed simply to cover the ongoing metabolic needs of the orbiting fleet. Finally, the process of shifting material into orbit is going to be a major expenditure of energy.

Raphaus
08-10-2009, 08:59
Living creatures expend energy (even 'nids) Most energy comes from stars, little plants grow, fluffy herd creatures eat the little plants and then tyranids (or farmers) kill the herd creatures and eat them.

Part of the biomass tyranids consume is expended as energy for running and stabbing and suchlike. So there is a cost for tyranids to take a planet it's just vastly outwayed by the amount of biomass they can harvest.

It doesn't really matter anyway, what does matter is how many hive fleets haven't shown up and how big they are.

The 4th ed codex isn't clear on this and is presented as a series of reports by specialists who a) don't know the half of it, and b) would be interested in making their specialsm seem the most important. (best way to get future funding) If you spoke to a Daemon Hunter he/she would tell you daemons are more dangerous, but then they would, wouldn't they.

El_Machinae
08-10-2009, 14:36
If they form their own ecosystems, though, they can photosynthetically harvest the suns' energy in their own organisms, and then use that energy for the stabbing & running.

Biomass is the substrate, it needn't be permanently lost, merely recycled.