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Buftoon
05-10-2009, 11:27
Hi,
I was reading a different thread about Horus' fight with the Emperor, and it is fairly common consensus ( I believe) that the only reason Horus wasn't killed straight off was due to the Emporors love towards him. Therefore, it could quite easily be argued that the reason he is now on his Golden Throne is due to love, and the hesitation that came from it.
With this is mind, do you think that the Imperial Church allows people to marry, care for people etc., when it was emotions like these that caused the downfall of the Big E? In short, are the citizens of the Imperium "allowed" to love?

Cheers :D

Mr_Rose
05-10-2009, 11:39
Given that the core dogma of the Imperial Creed is that the Emperor sacrificed himself to save humanity out of his love for us, and that is why you should love and worship him (through the medium if His Ecclesiarch et al of course) in return, I very much doubt they are down on love. Lust maybe (cf. Slaanesh), but not genuine love.

Mojaco
05-10-2009, 12:10
I don't think the church knows such details about the Emperor/Horus conflict. They were not around at the time and such details were surely strictly classified.

Argastes
05-10-2009, 13:07
Of course they "allow" people to love, marry, care for people, etc.! Even the Imperium isn't that bad.

AndrewGPaul
05-10-2009, 13:21
Since even members of the Adepta Sororitas don't take vows of celibacy, I don't suppose they care. This isn't Alabama. :)

AndrewGPaul
05-10-2009, 13:22
I don't think the church knows such details about the Emperor/Horus conflict. They were not around at the time and such details were surely strictly classified.


Not even classified - the only person who even knows the Emperor was holding back is the Emperor. The only other person in the room was Horus, and even he wasn't reading the Emperor's mind. There were no witnesses to the fight, so there's nothing to classify.

Londinium
05-10-2009, 15:01
I'd assume they'd be quite supportive of it, the whole ethos of 40k is that humanity is on the brink of destruction assailed on all sides by masses of enemies. You'd expect the Imperium would actively promote people having as many children as possible so as to produce more soldiers for the IG, kinda like how Nazi Germany awarded medals to women who had a high number of children as Nazi ideology called for an expansion in population to help it's militaristic ideals.

Idaan
05-10-2009, 15:27
Considering that the most basic truth of the Imperial Creed is that Humanity's manifest destiny is to inherit the stars and destroy all other life, and that they're going to need some solid numbers to do that, I'd say that the "Be fruitful" commandment is much, much more important in any of the today's Abrahamic religions. Love and faithfulness are natural results of that stance.

BaronDG
05-10-2009, 15:33
Since even members of the Adepta Sororitas don't take vows of celibacy, I don't suppose they care. This isn't Alabama. :)

This is just the worst piece of fluff ever written! :mad:

Red Beard
05-10-2009, 15:55
Since even members of the Adepta Sororitas don't take vows of celibacy, I don't suppose they care. This isn't Alabama. :)

Wait... I live in Alabama! ;)

wilsongrahams
05-10-2009, 15:56
Does anybody actually state this or are you saying they don't because somebody hasn't put it in a codex that they do? Referencing directly to sex is not ideal in a game culture populated by young boys.

Argastes
05-10-2009, 16:00
I have heard people on Warseer claim that in some BL novel, a character mentions that SOBs aren't celibate (never read it myself). But personally I think they would/should be, so I just throw that little factoid onto the large and ever-growing pile of "stupid crap that BL authors have said and that I am content to ignore".

wilsongrahams
05-10-2009, 16:05
Ah, but does that make it canon or is it scuttlebutt within the novel and the opinion of said character and not the author?

I agree though, anyone dedicating their life to serving the emperor in the way they do would hardly be going out drinking and having families in their spare time - they're the nuns of 40k - they would be gardening and praying.

DragonPup
05-10-2009, 16:06
It was from the lastest Ciaphas Cain novel where Cain muses to himself that not all Sisters take a vow of celibacy upon seeing one leave a certain someone's apartment.

Gue'Vesa'Vre Kilo
05-10-2009, 16:12
So long that the love towards others does not overcome the love towards the imperium and the Emperor, There will be no Dustin Hoffmans in Outbreak (The film) in the Imperium, none is going to save a small amount of PLAGUED people (Of course there is the chaos issue here, but anyways) from getting firebombed because he loves them.

electricblooz
05-10-2009, 16:44
It was from the lastest Ciaphas Cain novel where Cain muses to himself that not all Sisters take a vow of celibacy upon seeing one leave a certain someone's apartment.

And, obviously, since the Cain novels present the world of 40k as something slightly less grimdark that the worst emo-boy's fantasy they can't be canon, now can they?

Sigh, the setting was so much better in the original Rogue Trader; heck even Necromunda was more well-though out and plausible than the current lump of nonsense that is the 5thed canon.

LexxBomb
05-10-2009, 16:54
Not even classified - the only person who even knows the Emperor was holding back is the Emperor. The only other person in the room was Horus, and even he wasn't reading the Emperor's mind. There were no witnesses to the fight, so there's nothing to classify.

there were quite a few witnesses to the fight... The Adeptus Custodes, the Imperial Fist Terminators and a few members of the Imperial Army (now the Guard) plus a lot of Sons of Horus guys...

Brother Enok
05-10-2009, 17:11
Does anybody actually state this or are you saying they don't because somebody hasn't put it in a codex that they do? Referencing directly to sex is not ideal in a game culture populated by young boys.

and since when was this a childs hobby.
Reminds me of a time a parent brought back the Libre Chaotica, saying that her son had brought it without her knowing, and upon her perusal it contained "material unsuitable for children."
The store manager at the time, a reasonable, no nonsense young man a few years my senior, asked what part of a hobby which revolved around a galaxy of the most violent, viceral combat imaginable, cults devoted to extremem pleasure, pain and drug abuse and set in a time where rampant xenophobia and ignorance is the norm, is suitable for a young boy.

Argastes
05-10-2009, 17:12
And, obviously, since the Cain novels present the world of 40k as something slightly less grimdark that the worst emo-boy's fantasy they can't be canon, now can they?

Sigh, the setting was so much better in the original Rogue Trader; heck even Necromunda was more well-though out and plausible than the current lump of nonsense that is the 5thed canon.

Who ever said that the Cain novels weren't canon? I actually happen agree with you that the setting background was far, far better in the RT/2nd Edition days, and that the current background has devolved to the point of utter stupidity. I nevertheless don't like that one particular bit of fluff, from that one particular Cain novel, about SOBs not being celibate. So, like I said, I include it along with all the other disagreeable BL fluff that I ignore. That doesn't mean I'm claiming the novel is non-canon.

wilsongrahams
05-10-2009, 18:04
I dislike the canon fluff that Blood Angels are barely restrained. What happened to the famous speech by the other Argastes - "The Inquisition and Administratum say we are weak because some of us have given in to the Black Rage. They are fools! For we must resist every day of our lives or be forever damned.' And Dante has resisted for over 1100 years so it doesn't seem like it's that uncontrolled. Canon fluff varies by author you see...

utrotaren
05-10-2009, 18:08
But why would they live in celibate, they aint christians and I dont think "sex" is a sin in the Imperium.

AndrewGPaul
05-10-2009, 18:23
there were quite a few witnesses to the fight... The Adeptus Custodes, the Imperial Fist Terminators and a few members of the Imperial Army (now the Guard) plus a lot of Sons of Horus guys...

No, none of them made it to the throne room - Horus made sure of that. The only other person to see them was an Imperial Fist Terminator* and he lasted 2 seconds.

* or Ollanius Pious or an Adept Custodes.

wilsongrahams
05-10-2009, 18:29
I concur. Official fluff is only one witness although that witness does change from whom it was depending where you read it. It was originally an Imperial Fist Terminator because Custodes weren't around back in my day...

Buftoon
05-10-2009, 18:30
So long that the love towards others does not overcome the love towards the imperium and the Emperor, There will be no Dustin Hoffmans in Outbreak (The film) in the Imperium, none is going to save a small amount of PLAGUED people (Of course there is the chaos issue here, but anyways) from getting firebombed because he loves them.
This was the kind of line I was going on. For example, I'm sure there would be a large amount of cases wehre Cadian soldiers were told to bomb there home town, esp. during 13th Crusdae. Imperial doctrine teaches absolute faithfulness to the Imperium, I was just wondering whether they merely saw family etc. as a inconvienent method of getting more soldiers (something with the DKOK seem to have completely bypassed).

Ta

Argastes
05-10-2009, 18:30
But why would they live in celibate, they aint christians and I dont think "sex" is a sin in the Imperium.

Vows of celibacy aren't something that only Christian groups can take, nor are they limited to groups who think sex is sinful. Various persons/groups in Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are celibate too.

Actually, we should be talking about sexual abstinence ("chastity") here, not celibacy, because celibacy means abstention from marriage, not sex. Anyhow, I think that SOBs would be chaste and celibate, not because they are Christian or because sex is a sin in the Imperium, but because it squares up with what I've seen of their lifestyle, their ethos, and their attitudes towards physical sensation (pain and pleasure). And while they aren't Christian, they ARE quite obviously modeled on Christian female monastic orders, which suggests to me that their status as "brides of the Emperor" has sexual implications that are similar to those carried by a nun's status as a "bride of Christ".

Just because they take vows of celibacy/chastity doesn't mean they never actually have sex, of course. Just like real nuns, they sometimes break their vows. It's just that they're in trouble if they get caught.

Mr_Rose
05-10-2009, 20:06
It is recorded in at least one codex (Sisters of Battle, in fact) that the Ecclesiarchy, as official policy at any rate, does not demand or require celibacy of its members. It does also go on to note that there are a number of more extreme sects that do require such oaths of their adherents, but it nowhere states that the Adepta Sororitas are one of those.

Also, it is worth noting that vows of celibacy normally include any available gender and hardly ever specifically exclude reproduction, though that last part may be a historical artefact given that most cultures which were deeply into the whole celibacy kick would never have come up with artificial insemination, much less IVF.

madprophet
05-10-2009, 20:21
For all we know the Sisters might be celibate but not chaste (think the Cult of Artemis or Aphrodite from history) - hell, they might even have temple prostitutes to raise funds and children for the greater glory of the emperor

BaronDG
05-10-2009, 22:13
For all we know, the astartes might do the same...

I doubt it.

Ghost of Trigger
05-10-2009, 22:17
Hi,
I was reading a different thread about Horus' fight with the Emperor, and it is fairly common consensus ( I believe) that the only reason Horus wasn't killed straight off was due to the Emporors love towards him. Therefore, it could quite easily be argued that the reason he is now on his Golden Throne is due to love, and the hesitation that came from it.
With this is mind, do you think that the Imperial Church allows people to marry, care for people etc., when it was emotions like these that caused the downfall of the Big E? In short, are the citizens of the Imperium "allowed" to love?

Cheers :D

Love equals babies and babies equal more soldiers for the GLORIOUS IMPERIUM OF MAN

so of course it is permitted.

BaronDG
05-10-2009, 22:37
Alright, here we go. Families are made for the protection of the children. Parents have a natural nurturing instinct to their offspring.

A sisters life is in a hierarchical structure. They have probably made vows of obedience. If a situation would occure where their natural instinced conflicted with their vows, there's serious danger of the vows being broken. Therefore, it is only natural that they are not allowed to have sex at all.
I won't even go in to the fact that sex is a very intimate act and has it's own emotional baggage that could interfere with duty.

Abortion though... Probably a serious sin in the eyes of the Ecclesiarchy!

Argastes
05-10-2009, 22:56
It is recorded in at least one codex (Sisters of Battle, in fact) that the Ecclesiarchy, as official policy at any rate, does not demand or require celibacy of its members. It does also go on to note that there are a number of more extreme sects that do require such oaths of their adherents, but it nowhere states that the Adepta Sororitas are one of those.

If you mean the 2nd Edition SOB codex, I don't own it (though hopefully will be picking up a copy on Ebay soon), so I wasn't aware of that; if that's true, then that would probably change my opinion. My was based on the lack of of clear statements to the contrary in the fluff, and the fact that in light of that lack, it made the most sense to me that they would be celibate and/or chaste. If the fluff DOES provide clear statements to the contrary, then obviously that reasoning wouldn't be sound, and I've have to reevaluate my opinion. Does anyone have the SOB codex to provide the actual quotation?


Also, it is worth noting that vows of celibacy normally include any available gender and hardly ever specifically exclude reproduction, though that last part may be a historical artefact given that most cultures which were deeply into the whole celibacy kick would never have come up with artificial insemination, much less IVF.

Right, as I pointed out earlier, celibacy means abstention from marriage rather than from sex or reproduction.

baphomael
05-10-2009, 23:02
It all depends on the *type* of love one is talking about. Love is not a singular concept but one made of of various types. Take the classical Greeks - they had different *words* for different types of love. The Emperor's sacrifice came through a mixture of both agape (a a word that represents divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love - a kind of "religious" love - in this case, his love for mankind), philia (an Aristotolian kind of friendship-love, loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality and familiarity. In ancient texts, philos denoted a general type of love, used for love between family, between friends, a desire or enjoyment of an activity, as well as between lovers) and Storge (means "affection" in ancient and modern Greek. It is natural affection, like that felt by parents for offspring. Rarely used in ancient works, and then almost exclusively as a descriptor of relationships within the family. It is also known to express mere acceptance or putting up with situations, as in "loving" the tyrant)

JHZ
05-10-2009, 23:04
I think Orwell put it well in 1984: If people can't love, how can they love Big Brother?

I think there's more than a few cases of Imperial personnel gettin' it on, or at least thinking about gettin' it on, in BL novels. And I can't remember any case of love being wrong, at least when it was called for (telling your sarge you love her is probably not the best thing to do, especially if in battle).

Besides, such things are cultural, and the Imperium is a world of different cultures. I do believe the Ecclesiarchy does encourage all the proper Christian morals of a 17th century witch burning puritanist piece of sh... But I don't think there's much in the way if actual Imperial Law. Even in the Imperium there's a difference between immorality and illegality, at least if you ask an Adeptus Arbites judge. A priest would surely think otherwise, but who cares about them, right?

In Farseer there's a brothel, which has connections to higher ups of the city, and looking at Necromunda you can't help but to wonder if the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy have reached them at all. I think the Eschers would treat their drooling brain dead men as walking gemate storage and depositories no matter what the Imperium felt about such things, so in the end, who cares? You don't see anyone calling Inquisitorial purging on that planet for breaking the holy law of the Emperor, so why can't any number of the other few million worlds get away with it as well?


Since even members of the Adepta Sororitas don't take vows of celibacy, I don't suppose they care. This isn't Alabama. :)
Well, actually...

Argastes
05-10-2009, 23:16
Thanks for posting those text snippets JHZ, that is exactly the sort of fluff that led me to assume that SOBs would be celibate/chaste like real-life nuns (again, if 2nd Ed. SOB codex says differently I'd reconsider, but as it is, I think they are chaste/celibate). Any idea what book those quotes actually come from?

JHZ
05-10-2009, 23:21
First is from the current codex, the second I believe is from Dark Heresy.

baphomael
06-10-2009, 00:57
Thanks for posting those text snippets JHZ, that is exactly the sort of fluff that led me to assume that SOBs would be celibate/chaste like real-life nuns (again, if 2nd Ed. SOB codex says differently I'd reconsider, but as it is, I think they are chaste/celibate). Any idea what book those quotes actually come from?

IIRC, the stuff from the 2nd ed codex was speaking of the Ecclesiarchy in general. Presumably, as a rule, the Clergy in general do not have the same restrictions on celibacy/chastity (much in the same way Eastern Rites Catholicism/Catholic Priests married prior to ordination, eastern orthodox, coptic, Anglican etc etc priests can all be married, and in some cases it is encouraged). Having said that, local variations of the Cult Imperialis and local diocese may impose their own customs, but it doesnt seem to be a canonical ruling from the very top.

However, within this framework, presumably, religious orders (such as those various orders within the Adepta Sororitas) impose their own 'in-house' restrictions (as existing religious orders do) - religious orders have existed to take religious devotion to a whole new level of commitment. As such, it seems natural that, at the very least, the vast majority of Sororitas orders maintain vows of celibacy and/or chasity.

LexxBomb
06-10-2009, 01:02
and Dark Heresy is so consistent with the Cannon of the game... Personaly I wouldn't accept Dark Heresy as a major fluff reference point... I would rather have 3 sources from all over the range including BL codies and then Dark Heresy... Its what I require for my History students.

Argastes
06-10-2009, 01:28
and Dark Heresy is so consistent with the Cannon of the game... Personaly I wouldn't accept Dark Heresy as a major fluff reference point... I would rather have 3 sources from all over the range including BL codies and then Dark Heresy... Its what I require for my History students.

Even ignoring that passage from Dark Heresy, I think that there is plenty of evidence suggesting that SOBs might be chaste/celibate.

Tymell
06-10-2009, 01:52
I won't give an actual opinion on this, but I will say this much: a lot of the arguments I'm hearing here are very logical. But this doesn't mean they work in this context, because we are talking about a cult here, and such beliefs are by no means necessarily dictated by logic.

Example: There's one of the mainstream religions where if we followed all of it's many rules and regulations on sex, statistically the human race would be extinct by now :p

So while it might make sense of the Imperial Cult to, for example, encourage reproduction, that doesn't mean they would do. Belief systems like this often have contradictions within them or other dictates that seem not to make sense/mesh up with other ones, so a logical piece of reasoning (Imperium wants to be big, therefore babies = good!) may still be wrong.

As to the Ciaphas Cain source, bear in mind that BL authors -are- given a degree of freedom. Plus it's told from Cain's point of view, so may well be biased. Or just because we see one sister not being chaste doesn't mean that's the norm. I'd say JHZ's evidence outweighs it.

JHZ
06-10-2009, 02:17
Maybe Sisters wear abstinence rings?

"But Mr. Cain, my ring."
"A piece of metal will not stand in my way, woman!"


and Dark Heresy is so consistent with the Cannon of the game... Personaly I wouldn't accept Dark Heresy as a major fluff reference point... I would rather have 3 sources from all over the range including BL codies and then Dark Heresy... Its what I require for my History students.
It's always fun when Goto gets more credibility than 40K RPG's, video games and films.

madprophet
06-10-2009, 02:52
From history we know that there were several female cults in the classical religious world. The Maneads for example were devotees of Dionysus and were his "daughters". They would work themselves into a sexual and emotional frenzy and would go into battle or on the hunt and literally tear their foes or prey limb from limb or would engage in ecstatic orgies with each other and whomever else was at hand. Outside such rites, they tended to live as cloistered communities

The cult of Demeter Furious (Demeter Erinys literally Vengeful Demeter) had her served by the Erinyes - personifications of vengeance. But even in this aspect, Demeter remained a mother goddess and her devotees engaged in sexual orgies on her holidays to honor her maternal aspect.

The Cult of Cybele was a women's cult as well - male priests castrated themselves and assumed female personas. The Cybelines were not as warlike as the Maneads or the Erinyes but they were far from chaste (though like the other groups they were celibate)

In all cases marriage was proscribed because it inevitably put the woman under the authority of a man - namely her husband but since her children had no known father (indeed, since a devotee of any of these cults was likely to have multiple partners the exact sire of any particular child was an open question) the children were raised by the cult collectively - all the sisters were their 'mother'. Since children were raised in communal creches it is possible that a sister might not know who was her own child. This would make the children the collective responsibility - emotionally as well as materially - of the entire community but would not attach any particular child to any particular woman.

Looking at such a set up from an Imperial point of view, there are certain advantages - one is that you would have a ready source of new sisters and new recruits for the Commissariat, Space Marine Chapters, Inquisitorial Ordos, Assassin Temples, etc. without having to worry about the vicissitudes of family loyalties or ties to persons outside the Imperial Administratum.

I'm not saying the sisters could not be organized, governed and recruited as medieval nuns were, I am just saying that there is no real reason that they have to be.

Wolfblade670
06-10-2009, 03:37
Excellent theory, madprophet. It certainly would provide a steady flow of recruits for the Schola Progenium. An organization that serves to provide highly trained personnel for the Imperial Guard and Inquisition must in it self be massive and have huge recruitment quotas.

Argastes
06-10-2009, 04:12
Hmm, it's interesting, but I think it is jarringly at odds with the "image" of the SOB. Obviously they aren't the same thing as Christian nuns, but they ARE very obviously styled after them; I can't see them having ecstatic orgies and bearing children. Again, their entire lifestyle is based around devotion, abstention, asceticism, self-denial, and penitence. Pleasures of the flesh are not something they are into, or approve of. Remember the fluff in the 3rd Edition rulebook where the canoness talks about how they seek to avoid pleasure and embrace discomfort in every aspect of their lives, because suffering brings them closer to the emperor, and she uses a pen studded with tiny spikes that hurt her fingers as she writes? So I tend to think that sexual behavior of any sort, let alone ritual orgies, are right out of the question.

madprophet
06-10-2009, 04:37
Argastes, not that you're wrong, but there were no female military orders in the Christian world either. Being ascetic isn't necessarily out of line with the female cults of the ancient world - sexual congress was limited to certain times of year and then only in the context of religious rites.

The Cybelineads and Erinyeads were both cloistered and lived rather austere lives most of the time - sex and such were limited to certain fertility rites.

It is also possible that the a chapter house of Sisters is divided into different 'ministeria' - some of the sisters are assigned to military duties, others to evangelical duties, others to medical duties and still others to child bearing duties - perhaps something along the lines of the Bene Gesserit of the Dune Universe.

Perhaps the Sisters maintain an entire branch dedicated to managing the lines of the great houses of the Imperium in order to assist in the emergence of the 'New Man' or perhaps even the Emperor Reborn, manipulating both the nobility and their own sisters alike in pursuit of their ultimate goal.

Threeshades
06-10-2009, 04:41
Since even members of the Adepta Sororitas don't take vows of celibacy, I don't suppose they care. This isn't Alabama. :)

Alabamahamma 40k... Kind of rolls off the tongue.

Argastes
06-10-2009, 04:55
Madprophet: You make good points, and I'm certainly not trying to argue that anyone who believe SOBs aren't chaste/celibate is wrong; but I still just don't think it makes sense when set next to their clearly nunnish(?) character. It's only my opinion, and since the fluff isn't clear one way or the other, anyone is obviously welcome to a different opinion.

EDIT: Well actually, apparently Dark Heresy does explicitly say they're chaste, but it seems that many people don't take DH fluff too seriously. I have the same view towards most of what Black Library publishers so I certainly can't complain about that.

AndrewGPaul
06-10-2009, 07:32
Taking the (2nd edition?) Codex, Dark Heresy and Cain's Last Stand, that gives us the facts that Adepts Sororitas are supposed to be chaste, but that at least one reasonably high-ranking member was not. She did go to an effort to keep it secret, but whether that was because she was breaking her vows or simply to stop gossip round the poker table I don't know.

Taking the three sources together, it seems like chastity might be a preferred state, perhaps even encouraged, but not totally compulsory.

As to whether Cain's Last Stand trumps Dark Heresy as a source, or vice versa, I don't belive any one source is more official than another if there are apparent contradictions, then I prefer to find an explanation that allows both, rather than arbitrarily choosing the source I like the sound of better.

wilsongrahams
06-10-2009, 09:25
Maybe the different 'houses' - can't remember the correct term - have different rules. Some sisters are red, some black etc and all have different canonesses etc. Well maybe some are chaste and some are not? Similar to Catholics and Protestants and contraception. A very minor difference there you would agree.

BaronDG
06-10-2009, 10:04
The fornicating sister was the superior. Who would they complain to?

Besides, I think the writer of the Cain books really hates religion. In a previous book he used the sisters to show how blind fanaticism is very dangerous and the pious sisters nearly destroyed the world. While a bit obvious, coming from him, it is still a decent plot-device: what happens when the best are corrupted.

In his latest book, he made sure to portray them just like everybody else. They were drinking, gambling and fornicating with the rest of them. In his mind, he probably made them likeable.

To me, he dragged them through mud and filth, belitteling their faith and purity.

Madprofet: It is certainly an interesting idea you have there and something GW could build upon for other units etc. Don't they already do something similar with the witchelves in fantasy?

But it's not right for the sisters.

ADF
06-10-2009, 10:35
Perhaps the Sisters maintain an entire branch dedicated to managing the lines of the great houses of the Imperium in order to assist in the emergence of the 'New Man' or perhaps even the Emperor Reborn, manipulating both the nobility and their own sisters alike in pursuit of their ultimate goal.

This is actually the case; there is a so-called ordo famulus that cares for the important imperial bloodlines and is even abel to predict the appearance of saints with a degree of accuracy.

People interested in this aspects should try to get a hold of the WD article "Liber Sororitas" that was published in a WD shortly after the WH codex.

Quote Lexicanum:

The Orders Famulous are a non-militant wing of the Adepta Sororitas. They provide diplomats, advisers and chamberlains who have an excellent knowledge of Imperial blood lines and act well when disputes form on worlds over ruler-ship. They are often employed by Thorian Inquisitors. The order is split between the Convent Prioris on Terra, housing the Order of the Holy Seal and the Order of the Sacred Coin and the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VII including the Order of the Key and the Order of the Gate.

Legionary
06-10-2009, 18:59
I don't think a debate on Imperial attitudes to love is going to be the place that atheists are convinced of the truth of any particular religion, nor will it be the place that they convince followers of any particular religion that they're following a lot of old nonsense.

Might be an idea to just abort the entire discussion and return to the topic at hand.

On the subject of which, the Ecclesiarchy seems to be fairly permissive because it doesn't really have to focus much on control of the Imperial citizen. With the government being more or less conflated with the religion then Imperial law is really going to be the same as the tenets laid down by the Ecclesiarchy. The church can therefore concentrate less on social control and more on spreading the faith.


In some ways it's quite liberal, albeit with the rather major caveat that if you do cross the line there will be no mercy shown and that there will be blood.

ChaosBeast
06-10-2009, 19:32
Does anybody actually state this or are you saying they don't because somebody hasn't put it in a codex that they do? Referencing directly to sex is not ideal in a game culture populated by young boys.

says who?:D

i would say they were all for it, as long as it didn't effect your work. they probably wouldn't mind if you were married or not, as either way, your making new guardsman.;) they may on some worlds even ban the use of contraceptives, as it lowers birth rates, and population boom isn't really a problem in 40k

t-tauri
06-10-2009, 20:17
A number of posts removed. Please keep inside the posting guidelines. Let's remember that "real" religions only belong in P&R on Warseer and that offensive posting will not be tolerated.

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition

BaronDG
06-10-2009, 20:17
Yes, guillimansknight, I'm sure you are a very unique and free spirit. It doesn't excuse rudeness though. In an open forum you have to take special care to avoid insulting others and you've just failed.

InquisitorNiels
06-10-2009, 20:27
It is my understanding that the church has many different shapes and forms. Each planet, and in some cases entire sectors were able to take their view on god and keep it, so long as what ever "god" they worshiped was changed over to the Emperor. That being that, if one such planet had views that madprophet outlined, and a SOB ordo was formed here they they might have such rituals. On the same line of thinking there could be ordos that have a much more nun type of feel going on for them.

madprophet
06-10-2009, 21:48
It is my understanding that the church has many different shapes and forms. Each planet, and in some cases entire sectors were able to take their view on god and keep it, so long as what ever "god" they worshiped was changed over to the Emperor. That being that, if one such planet had views that madprophet outlined, and a SOB ordo was formed here they they might have such rituals. On the same line of thinking there could be ordos that have a much more nun type of feel going on for them.

Absolutely! I don't think anyone is saying there is a single, 'one true way' to visualize either the Sisters or the Ecclesiarchy.

In fairness, Argastes view is probably closer to what Mssrs. Priestly and Chambers had in mind when they created the Sisters (lots of unresolved Catholic School issues going on there :evilgrin: ).

I was simply offering another possible view of the Sisters, drawn from history, that would have them be less 'Christian'. Unlike Christianity, which emphasizes the Brotherhood of Mankind or Judaism which acknowledges a universal truth revealed by an Omnibenevolent, Omnipotent, Omnipresent Creator or even Islam which claims to be the perfection of both Judaism and Christianity with a dose of Arab cultural bias for flavor the Imperial cult is a bloody, warlike religion that strikes me more like the cult of Wotan or Thor or Ares or the various warrior-god cults of the Celtic world than anything out of the Abrahamic tradition.

I guess its because I have a degree in World Religion (State University of New York, 1988) and this sort of stuff interests me. What's more, the Imperial Cult may harken to Gothic Christian imagery (after all, most of GW's customers are going to be Europeans and Americans and most of them are at least nominally Christian) but its philosophy is drawn from the warrior mystery cults of the ancient world (especially Mithrianism and Manacheanism).

Following that source, it makes little sense for the Sisters of Battle to be cloistered virgins married to the Emperor in the same way that nuns are married to Jesus with their lives centered around prayer and occasionally teaching and medicine. The Sisters are a military order and are the primary arm of the Ecclesiarchy Militant (at least since the decree passive).

The Sisters of Battle would probably follow the mold of the ancient female cults with blood and fertility rites with their sexual rites are most likely limited to certain times of the year being cloistered and chaste the rest of the time. :angel:

There are non-Militant orders of Sisters but they are not Sisters of Battle, they are Sisters Hospitaller (Nurses), Sisters Famulous (Matchmakers and providers of concubines to the nobility), Sisters Dialogous (the teachers and record keepers), there is also probably a Missionary order (Sisters Missionaria?), a diplomatic order (Sisters Protectiva?) as well as some administrative orders. :cool:

These non-Militant orders may vary from utterly chaste to wildly promiscuous depending on their mission.

Again, I am not trying to devalue the opinions of other posters (especially well-thought out ones like Argastes) but only to offer a possible alternate view of the Sisters that is more in keeping with the decidedly pagan nature of the Imperial Cult.:skull:

Marshal2Crusaders
06-10-2009, 23:46
I would like to throw out that chaste/celibacy likely depends on your Order, like so many things depend on your chapter as a Space Marine. So Order of the Ebon Chalice may require chastity, while the Order of the Hard Rockers is a little more lax in their spiritual purity ;) .

Argastes
07-10-2009, 00:42
Again, all very good points. However, I do think that the Imperial cult may be closer in philosophical character to Abrahamic religion than you give it credit for. It's monotheistic or (depending on how the Imperials view other "gods") chauvinistically henotheistic in a way that I don't think most ancient mystery cults were; it views any gods or supernatural entities other than the Emperor in an adversarial light, and treats worship of any god besides the Emperor as gravely sinful (though the AdMech do apparently get a free pass). It seems to place a strong emphasis on salvation via the Emperor. It attributes to the Emperor, if not omnibenevolence, at least omnirectitude (I made that word up but I think it works--and besides, the God of the old testament is not always omnibenevolent himself, if omnibenevolence means benevolence towards all people!). It's view of the nature of sinfulness and righteousness has clear parallels to Abrahamic views. As for it's warlike character, it doesn't remind me of a war-god's cult so much as an extreme version of Crusader theology; Urban II at Clermont through a lens of deep xenophobic hatred. I know that this sort of thing isn't at all representative of the Christian bible's scriptural message, but nevertheless it IS a part of Christian history; Christianity is/was as Christianity does/did, you might say. The Imperial cult's warlike nature may not resemble anything espoused in the Christian bible, but it DOES have clear parallels to the ideas and actions that occurred within the context of Christianity at some points in history. If I had to pick a single religion that the Imperial cult reminds me of more strongly than any other, it would be Western Christianity circa 1100 AD.

In fact I don't see any strong parallels to Mithraism or Manicheanism (or in the case of the latter, no parallels that couldn't just as easily be drawn to Abrahamic monotheism). I know Mithraism was popular among soldiers, but was it really a warlike or violent cult in it's own right? My understanding is that it didn't actually have any philosophical or theological tenets that were particularly bloody-minded. As for Manicheanism, I didn't even realize it was especially popular among soldiers; was it really a "warrior mystery cult"? I had always understood it as a sort of weird gnostic hybrid of Zoroastrianism and early Christianity.

As for the SOBs behaving very differently from Christian nuns... It's true they are a military order, unlike nuns, but the variously Christian religious knightly orders were of a military nature and they were still chaste and (theoretically) kept celibate. So I don't think the military mission of the SOBs necessarily precludes them from having sexual lifestyles similar to the nuns they so clearly draw inspiration from. They might not be physically cloistered, but their military mission doesn't mean that they couldn't still be virginal brides of the Emperor who are cloistered in a metaphorical sense.

InquisitorNiels
07-10-2009, 03:23
For the most part they might be chaste, but the huge scope that is the 40k universe allows for many, many different possibilities in any thing from Tau and Necrons to how chaste the SOB are, or what kind of food a normal citizen eats.

The world we live in today has a wide array of religions and beliefs. You take that and multiply it by a million worlds and 38,000 years and the idea that you can have many different religions is not that far-fetched. Even more support for this is that the Imperium does not have just one set of religion, so long as you worship the Emperor, and maybe a few major things like a certain few texts you can have many different variations of the "same" religion.

So you can have chaste SOB, and you can have SOB that go out and breed with the best of the best on their planet to produce the finest sons and daughters that will further serve the Emperor. And of course you can have something in between. So if you want sexy nuns with guns you can have it, and if you want...well nuns with guns but not so sexy you can do that too.

guillimansknight
07-10-2009, 15:10
As the Emperors brides wouldn't some cults say they have to bear him offspring?

Sai-Lauren
07-10-2009, 16:08
there were quite a few witnesses to the fight... The Adeptus Custodes, the Imperial Fist Terminators and a few members of the Imperial Army (now the Guard) plus a lot of Sons of Horus guys...

Nope, the only "people" mentioned as being in the throne room on Horus' battle barge were The Emperor, Horus, Sanguinus (who was so dead that his death reverberates through the BA geneseed 10 millenia later), and the dust of one Imperial Fist Terminator (I suppose his soul could have still been there though - the first Angel of the Emperor perhaps?). There weren't even any Sons Of Horus.
The teleport beams were disrupted to split the Emperor off from Dorn, the Custodes and so on, then the army units that were with him got split off or killed to leave the Emperor alone. Sanguinus was also split off and brought close to the throne room, because Horus wanted to turn him and his legion.

Dorn didn't manage to get there until after Horus was a cooling corpse, and the only other living person in there when he arrived was the Emperor.
Although maybe the Emperor told Dorn what he had to do, and why he couldn't have done it before, as a rambling aside whilst telling him how to build the Golden Throne - a second-hand witness to the events. I doubt Dorn would have told many others though, maybe Khan, and Johnson and Russ when they arrived.



It all depends on the *type* of love one is talking about. Love is not a singular concept but one made of of various types. Take the classical Greeks - they had different *words* for different types of love. The Emperor's sacrifice came through a mixture of both agape (a a word that represents divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love - a kind of "religious" love - in this case, his love for mankind), philia (an Aristotolian kind of friendship-love, loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality and familiarity. In ancient texts, philos denoted a general type of love, used for love between family, between friends, a desire or enjoyment of an activity, as well as between lovers) and Storge (means "affection" in ancient and modern Greek. It is natural affection, like that felt by parents for offspring. Rarely used in ancient works, and then almost exclusively as a descriptor of relationships within the family. It is also known to express mere acceptance or putting up with situations, as in "loving" the tyrant)

This post should win the thread and maybe several others.

Don't confuse Love and Lust, or Sex, Desire, Greed...

So long as you Love (and yes, the capital L is deliberate) the Emperor, honour Him above all others etc, and don't transgress against his laws, you can do what you want, some planets may enforce strict monogamy through arranged marriage, even to the point of being unable to find a new partner should the one chosen for you die, others could be sleep with who you want, when you want, more could be a matriarchy and allow the women to have harems, whilst worlds like Kreig could take people's testes/ovaries on reaching adulthood, so that they can produce the next generation ex utero, whilst the people either go to the guard, or work in the high mutagen areas of the planet.



Hmm, it's interesting, but I think it is jarringly at odds with the "image" of the SOB. Obviously they aren't the same thing as Christian nuns, but they ARE very obviously styled after them; I can't see them having ecstatic orgies and bearing children. Again, their entire lifestyle is based around devotion, abstention, asceticism, self-denial, and penitence. Pleasures of the flesh are not something they are into, or approve of. Remember the fluff in the 3rd Edition rulebook where the canoness talks about how they seek to avoid pleasure and embrace discomfort in every aspect of their lives, because suffering brings them closer to the emperor, and she uses a pen studded with tiny spikes that hurt her fingers as she writes?

Somewhere between catholic Nuns and the Knights Templars IMO.



So I tend to think that sexual behavior of any sort, let alone ritual orgies, are right out of the question.

Agreed, although some might lapse, or bend their vows to just short of breaking point, but the exceptions don't make the rule. Remember, the six main orders militant were based on six of the original Daughters of the Emperor, and I would suggest that all the non-militant orders were offshoots of those orders.

Whatever those six women did, the Adepta Sororitas will do now.

And didn't Vandire use them as his concubines (as in "sleep with me and you sleep with Him"? If so, I would think that they would be very, very, anti-sex.



The fornicating sister was the superior. Who would they complain to?

The superior's superior? ;)

There'd probably be a priest somewhere who'd be able to get authority to remove her pending investigation, plus any of her subordinates would presumably be able to have her relieved of her duties, assuming anyone brought it to their attention.



These non-Militant orders may vary from utterly chaste to wildly promiscuous depending on their mission.

Lie back and think of Terra? :)

Can't see that personally. Some female missionaries/priests might use sex (or more likely, a never to be fulfilled promise of) to bring groups under control (or more precisely their leaders), but not the Sororitas IMO.

As an aside, I can see some Repentia having hysterectomies and/or mastectomies carried out on themselves by choice as part of their penance - some might even try and do it themselves :eek: .

Argastes
07-10-2009, 16:15
As for missionary Sororitas orders, I tend to think that "dedicated" missionary orders would not exist; any missionary activity from the Sororitas would merely take the form of Hospitaller, etc. orders that set up shop on recently-Imperialized planets and sort of try to demonstrate the rightness of the Imperial creed via their good works. Actively proselytizing missionary work is the business of the Missionaria Galaxia (which of course surely includes both male and female missionaries).

JHZ
07-10-2009, 17:02
As the Emperors brides wouldn't some cults say they have to bear him offspring?
"Big-E, you my baby daddy!"

Too bad it wouldn't work. Long distance relationships rarely do.

Marshal2Crusaders
08-10-2009, 01:18
Again, some Imperial Cults do the whole Orgy thing, some do the blood sacrifice, others of animal sacrifice, it just depends on where you are from. While I cannot see SoB doing those things, a little variation here and there is likely.


as an aside: I don't think the Emperor was telling Dorn to put him on the Golden Throne in those few minutes of gasping breathe, I think he was warning him about its purpose. Dorn just misunderstood.

IcedAnimals
08-10-2009, 06:29
They arent the brides of the emperor anymore. They renounced that title and went back to "daughters of the emperor"

madprophet
08-10-2009, 21:02
As for missionary Sororitas orders, I tend to think that "dedicated" missionary orders would not exist; any missionary activity from the Sororitas would merely take the form of Hospitaller, etc. orders that set up shop on recently-Imperialized planets and sort of try to demonstrate the rightness of the Imperial creed via their good works. Actively proselytizing missionary work is the business of the Missionaria Galaxia (which of course surely includes both male and female missionaries).

Yep, forgot about them. You're quite right about the missionaries. Hospitallers and Sisters Dialogous would fill the more traditional nun roles of nurse and teacher.

You are also most likely right about the Sisters being chaste (at least in the original ideas set out by Priestly and Chambers) but I kind of like the idea of them being more like the pagan female fertility cults (at least some orders, anyway). I think they may be like Dune's Bene Geserit, with sexual and social mores dependent on which sub-order they belong to (which also leaves room for us both to be right ;) )

As to the original point - what is the Ecclesiarchy's take on love, it is probably a good thing. After all, the Imperium is still a human institution and even Stalin and Hitler didn't outlaw human affection - they just felt it shouldn't extend to Jews, Gypsies, dissenters, political opponents and enemy soldiers. Likewise, the Imperium is cool with love but doesn't believe it to extend to mutants, rogue psykers, xenos, political opponents, dissenters (they probably aren't too keen on Jews, Christians or Muslims either...):skull:

Condottiere
09-10-2009, 05:20
Maybe Sisters wear abstinence rings?

"But Mr. Cain, my ring."
"A piece of metal will not stand in my way, woman!"

He hasn't come across admantium chastity belts yet.

LexxBomb
09-10-2009, 06:09
he would just use some sort of lubricant to remove it

JHZ
09-10-2009, 07:37
He hasn't come across admantium chastity belts yet.
God knocked Mary up without taking her virginity, so I'd think the Emperor can manage one little piece of metal.

BaronDG
09-10-2009, 13:27
Isn't love a prerequisite for self sacrifice? And the Imperium revolves around self sacrifice. As baphomael said, there are different kinds of love. In the roman/christian world, this would be Caritas instead of Amor.

Madprophet, while I'll still view my own army as very chaste, you sure have argued your case. But I think "the maenads" is more fitting for my esher gang than my holy order. :)

Mr_Rose
09-10-2009, 13:32
Pretty sure self-sacrifice can come from duty as easily as love. And in the hands of particularly creative demagogues, unfiltered rage can be distilled into something close to it too.

madprophet
09-10-2009, 13:43
Isn't love a prerequisite for self sacrifice? And the Imperium revolves around self sacrifice. As baphomael said, there are different kinds of love. In the roman/christian world, this would be Caritas instead of Amor.

True, but as a matter of practical reality, both have gone hand in hand. There is a concept in Japan roughly translated as "duty" and "love", many Japanese sagas deal with the conflict between them.


Madprophet, while I'll still view my own army as very chaste, you sure have argued your case. But I think "the maenads" is more fitting for my esher gang than my holy order. :)

Yes, the classic fertility cults are great fodder for 40k.

madprophet
09-10-2009, 13:46
He hasn't come across admantium chastity belts yet.

All I can think of is the line from "Robinhood: Men in Tights"

'oooo, a chastity belt - that's going to scratch my winkie!' :D

BaronDG
09-10-2009, 14:24
Well, they've already got a kind of chastity belt. It's called power armour! ;)

Must be a bit like doing it with a tank...

JHZ
09-10-2009, 14:31
Oh, Lost in Space, is there a strip in you we cannot use?

BaronDG
09-10-2009, 17:21
Ah, that's a classic!