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View Full Version : Lizardmen sneakyness..



Kroxhandler
18-01-2006, 13:26
There are certain units in the lizardmen arsenal that opponents have come to respect if not outright fear. Saurus warriors are most likely one of them, saurus cavalry and kroxigors most certainly. But are they really the ones to be feared? How many times hasn't that unit of skinks managed to get passed enemy lines and shot that key unit to pieces? Or jungle swarms held those knight occupied for those crucial number of turns? Terradons managed to take out that pesky mage or weapons team?

I'm thinking about redoing my entire armystyle. Every veteran player out there is probably scoffing and fondly remembering the day they realized psy.warfare was a key component in WH. Simply put shifting the mental focus off the units that's tasked with a specific mission and centering it one the more scary and distracting units. WE probably excel at this but as LM is also quite good at guerilla-style warfare I'm thinking it's worth a shot.

Gameplay? Put minimal equipment on your heroes and lords, unless they have a very specific role in mind. Don't max out your core units, no sacred spawnings or extra equipment( bar perhaps a standard or two). Keep special units like kroxigors and cavalry at a minimum. And so on. Things to do then? Try to be inventive, put a scouting skink chief with a unit of scouts. Take 3 bases of jungle swarms and a large unit of skinks coupled with a BSB with banner of prophecy(outnumber+fear). Suprise the enemy( it's still a theory in the making).

This is all boring, what's the catch?....Make it look like you're not doing it! Go back to your bareboned unit of saurus and flesh it out a bit. Buy a couple of more models, paint the front line to look a little more aggressive, some more threatening stances. Make sure that the unit will catch the opponents eye and gets bumped up the priority list a notch. All the while you advance with your 'ordinary' troops on a mission...

Anyone with any crasy ideas or experiences along the same path please report in.:) I'm still a long way from finished. It's all about balancing the Zheng and the Qi, Zun Tzu's Art of war is a good read( not that I've read myself mind you;) )

RdDragon5
18-01-2006, 15:31
The idea of using "lesser" units to deal the real damage is slowly starting to come into my tactics. I often find the my big block of Saurus (especially a unit of 20) will attract far more attention then they should.

While I haven't really played a lot of games with things like salamanders and terradons, I'm always pleazed with how my skinks and jungle swarms preform. To that extent I'm also a big fan of the Sacred Hosting lists where every unit gets the benifit.

Giving skinks sotek means you'll be getting twice as many attacks on the charge. Up against the flank of a unit say 4 deep thats 12 attacks (including the 2 corners).

Giving skinks tepok gives them magic resistance (2), and with heroes and saurus blocks adding dispel dice any magic heavy army should beware.

Finally my favorite is a Sacred Spawning of Quetzl list. Saurus with a 3+ save in close combat, yes please. Plus now those javelin skinks look a lot more appealing with a 4+ save in close combat.


Finally I also will try charging with my salamanders (once I get them that is), fear and S5 attacks are nothing to scoff at.

Kroxhandler
18-01-2006, 22:49
The idea of using "lesser" units to deal the real damage is slowly starting to come into my tactics. I often find the my big block of Saurus (especially a unit of 20) will attract far more attention then they should.

While I haven't really played a lot of games with things like salamanders and terradons, I'm always pleazed with how my skinks and jungle swarms preform. To that extent I'm also a big fan of the Sacred Hosting lists where every unit gets the benifit.

Giving skinks sotek means you'll be getting twice as many attacks on the charge. Up against the flank of a unit say 4 deep thats 12 attacks (including the 2 corners).

Giving skinks tepok gives them magic resistance (2), and with heroes and saurus blocks adding dispel dice any magic heavy army should beware.

Finally my favorite is a Sacred Spawning of Quetzl list. Saurus with a 3+ save in close combat, yes please. Plus now those javelin skinks look a lot more appealing with a 4+ save in close combat.


Finally I also will try charging with my salamanders (once I get them that is), fear and S5 attacks are nothing to scoff at.

Yeah, I started to get the idea after reading your latest armylist. The 'little guys' can actually make a huge difference now that I'm thinking about it.

First off I'd say that the salamanders are worth their weight in gold. They're probably one of the best bargains in the whole warhammer world. Their only real disadvantage is that the skink handlers drag them down in CC, don't charge or get them charged unless you've got rid of all but a couple of handlers. The handlers are there only as missileshields IMO.

I'm afraid the sacred host of tepoc 'only' gives MR(1) to skinks, still a fair deal if you run a skinks-light list. If you could run a sacred host of Tepoc+Quetzl javSkinks would be ubergood. Sacred host of Sotek seems like a good idea on paper although it's probably better to use the Red Host instead.

My main thought is too make the army look like a more traditional Saurus-heavy list but at the same time pack a couple of suprises in the form of 'lesser' troops. Skinks fill this niche quite admirably, especially the skink chief. The only unit I'm not too keen on trying is chameleon skinks, they're just too pricey for what they do.

Frankly
18-01-2006, 23:48
Gameplay? Put minimal equipment on your heroes and lords, unless they have a very specific role in mind. Don't max out your core units, no sacred spawnings or extra equipment( bar perhaps a standard or two). Keep special units like kroxigors and cavalry at a minimum. And so on. Things to do then? Try to be inventive, put a scouting skink chief with a unit of scouts. Take 3 bases of jungle swarms and a large unit of skinks coupled with a BSB with banner of prophecy(outnumber+fear). Suprise the enemy( it's still a theory in the making).

This is all boring, what's the catch?....Make it look like you're not doing it!

Dude, thats my army and alot of L.M. armylists you see in tournaments.

Fast, mobile and with a high model count.

It's not boring at all, alot of shooting, alot of movement, flees, distracting, tarpits ... its all fun stuff.

The down side, its fralige to other fast moving armies, all cavalry DE and gobbo's come to mind ... both are veteran armies(alot of it has to do with $$$), but you get the idea, BoC are another problem.

Still if you keep your army flexible with options to deal with such threats(salamanders, terradons, scouting skinks, magic) you should be fine.

I'll post some unit options and tactic later on .. got to go.

Kroxhandler
28-01-2006, 20:17
I'll take the mention of my plan as belonging to 'veteran' lists as a compliment. It just need to get off the ground. Anyone care to offer some more input on the matter?

I feel that any list that is to take on any challenger has to have a solid core. Saurus warriors seems to be the only real solid core choice for this, temple guards are too expensive(and too few, 1 per slann!) to be the backbone of the army.
Also IMO any LM should have at least one unit of skinks, one scouting for each 1000 pts, and then one for each core/support unit on foot. I'll count kroxigors as support as they lack the numbers and command options to be more than an auxillary unit. The need to be used in combos, saurus warriors do just fine by their own.

A JSOD( scar-vet. with jaguar charm and GW) seems to be everyone's favourite ace. It does fill the role as chariotkiller, competing with kroxigors, very nicely. Alterations is perhaps the scar-vet BSB with sword of hornet to keep the center unit of saurus solid. Anyone charging will have a tough time breaking them if they can't manouver out of the BSB's range, striking first with 4 S4 attacks make quite a difference.

A quick and dirty options for a hero is a FSOD, skink chief with assorted goodness, most often the cloak of feathers. The chief actually has a really good statline for its cost, although ranged weapons cost quite a bit. My suggestion is too resist the urge to pump it up above 100 pts by staying with either the cloak+LA+Sh (and scouting rule of course) or jag.charm+LA+SH. If it is to be used as a mage hunter an xhw might come in handy as they usually don't pack much punch to throw back in CC. A scouting chief with LA+Sh and Jag.charm, shielded by a unit of scouting skinks weighs in at under 150 pts and can be used as a springboard to take out mages/crews.

If you really want to boost the chief and don't care about the cost you could equip it with Scimitar(+2A) and sacred spawning of Sotek. On the charge that's 6(!) S4 WS4 attacks for a measly ~120 pts...not very durable but can dispatch an entire war machine crew on its own. I don't recommend this even if it is an awsome combo, it goes against the principle of keeping heroes cheap, not to mention it's a lot of points put into a T3, 5+Sv model.

Actually I'm thinking of making this the first official point in my plan:
1) 'If you equip a hero and notice that there is just enough points to buy an additional item, don't.'. It's most often not really needed and a couple of such expenses easily stack up and costs you a unit or so. It's most likely that every once in a while someone actually knows what they are doing and the extra quipment makes or breaks the game but as a rule it seems prudent to trim heroes down as much as possible.

Perhaps the plan should be broken down into smaller parts, as I seem to have gone off my initial topic? Heroes, troops, support and combos seems like a good place to start.

beefpizza
01-02-2006, 01:21
Hi all.
Well I play Southlands, so my tactic relies pretty much solely on MSU tactics.
I am never able to take out a unit in one go, but slowly dwindle the effectiveness of most of them. But for this to work, you have to be ready to loose some of your small skink units. Basically, isolate units, surround them, and pester them with blowpipes until they drop.

Also, i have one main combat unit in my 1250 pt. List (i'm still making my army) and it is my 4 Kroxigor w/ ancient unit. This scares people and I can funnel units into death traps. For this reason, this unit rarely sees battle, but they are still effective.

I also have to say that chameleons are pretty good in my opinion. I'm still learning how to use them most effectively, but popping right behind the enemy can throw a lot of people off guard and skew their tactics.

But I have been having trouble with skink chiefs. I tried the 3x S5 staff but that didn't nearly make its points up. If anyone has some killer combos, please tell.

Well thats about it.

WiCkEdRock
01-02-2006, 07:20
I heard skink chiefs with that flying item and a magical dagger (can't remember the name, possibly jaguar) are excellent for mage and warmachine hunting. But you've probably used that already.

Flypaper
01-02-2006, 10:54
4 Kroxigor w/ ancient
/faints in shock. :eek:

I heard skink chiefs with that flying item and a magical dagger (can't remember the name, possibly jaguar)
Chief with two hand weapons, Sacred Spawning of Sotek and Cloak of Feathers is the standard build.

Kroxhandler
01-02-2006, 12:13
I can think of a couple of 'Chief-builds':
Scimitar, scout, LA, Sh, possibly Sotek. That's a whopping amount(6!) of pretty high WS and S. The only thing with this build is the high cost ('round 130 with Sotek) and the poor armour. Still would be able to wreak havoc with enemy support units parked in their deployment zone.

The opposite would be a armoured chief with Stegadon helm and an enchanted shield. Takes it down to 3+ save with Ld7, not too shabby. Still costs a fair bit of points though.

If you want a resonably good assassin of your own you might try equipping a Chief with Jaguar charm, Dagger of Sotek, LA + Sh, scout and Sotek. Pops up with an escort of scouting skinks near enemy units, chief charges out of unit(18" of charge range!) and get up and personal with an enemy character of your choice. Killing blow + 4 attacks = very likely dead enemy general/BSB/archmage....still a bit too much points though as the chief won't last long in combat( poor save and T, not to mention average leadership). This tactic could be very good against Skaven I imagine, their 'lead from the rear' rules makes sniping their characters difficult unless you can get around the unit. Might be a fair trade against Chaos as well, their characters do have lots of armour, saves and hitting power but they go down from a killing blow nontheless. And considering the fact that they may cost at least twice as much as the chief it just might be worth it. Maybe even good against Tomb Kings, I hear their army crumbles as soon as the general is slain?

Another fun combo is sticking the chief onto a stegadon( no,you can't scout with the stegadon!) and thereby not having to have to worry about armour. 2+ Save is as good as it gets, give the chief the following instead: Stegadon Helm, xhw, javelin, Sotek. This will give you a Ld 7 coldblooded stubborn killing machine with 9 attacks at a fair skill and S, terror and some limited shooting capabilities. Not too bad eh? Just costs a bloody fortune and the chief can get targeted in combat. Not the best combo IMO but it could be fun to try sometime.

Frankly
01-02-2006, 13:03
/faints in shock. :eek:

Chief with two hand weapons, Sacred Spawning of Sotek and Cloak of Feathers is the standard build.

Honestly, it's to many points and not enough hitting power and the problem with Cloak of feathers is that you can't land in forests, this is a major draw back in game play.

Try scout, S.o.Sotek and sword of might. He'll start making his points back when you get him supporting kroxies and veterans(with jaguar charm)charges on heavy cavalry or eleite troop choices.

IMO str5 is far better than having an extra attack, wounding most things on 2+ or 3+ while chopping through armour saves.

Scout and movement 12" will usually get you where you want to go.

The funniest is Scout, piranha blade and bane head on a skink.

Best thing for skink hero's is to have a few lore of heavens rerolls hanging around.

Atzcapotzalco
01-02-2006, 17:31
One massive drawback about putting your chief on a stegadon-
Replaces ALL crew. That's 6 skinks with poison javelins, plus the giant bow, for no points adjustment.

Frankly
01-02-2006, 23:06
So are you running a MSU kind of list?

Are you running a southlands or lustra list?

Will it be skink or saurus heavy?

Will it be magic heavy?

Smashy or indirect?

Based on model numbers or charcters?

Kroxhandler
01-02-2006, 23:53
One massive drawback about putting your chief on a stegadon-
Replaces ALL crew. That's 6 skinks with poison javelins, plus the giant bow, for no points adjustment.

True, very true. I was on the verge of claiming the crew had only hand weapons but my trusty armybook showed the error of my ways.;) It's probably a lot easier to kill one T3,W2 character than 6 T3,W1 crew members in order to get the steggie to riot. So I happen to agree that putting a chief on a stegadon might seem cool with the amount of CC-hurt you can inflict but it's not worth it for most players.

Flypaper
02-02-2006, 05:37
Honestly, it's to many points and not enough hitting power and the problem with Cloak of feathers is that you can't land in forests, this is a major draw back in game play.
...Yeah, that's why I don't use one. The build I listed is the most popular FSoD, though. :p

Honestly, I'd like to see some major improvements to chiefs - I'm just not motivated to pick one up as they stand. A JSoD is a much better assassin for a negligible points hike, and they're worthless as Ld-boosters unless you nab the expensive Stegadon helm.

Let 'em deploy with Chameleons (as an upgrade ability, even) and I'll pick one up. Honest! :o

Frankly
02-02-2006, 07:40
I pretty much agree with you Flypaper.

Even so, I still use them as a supporting unit, mainly for fluff reasons and the enjoyment of running around with a skink that can take down blood dragon thralls.

Honestly, I think there are better units choices that can do what a skink character can do.

Kroxhandler
02-02-2006, 14:44
I pretty much agree with you Flypaper.

Even so, I still use them as a supporting unit, mainly for fluff reasons and the enjoyment of running around with a skink that can take down blood dragon thralls.

Honestly, I think there are better units choices that can do what a skink character can do.

Sure, it's a bit overpriced(or underpowered?) for what is can do. What options do we have?
for about 105 pts you can get:
7 Chameleons as a excellent scout/magehunter task force? Much more shooting power, a lot less less CC power. 3 Terradons, again the same amount of points(roughly), almost thrice the CC power, x3 shooting power. more wounds, more manouverability(except in woods) but only a pretty crappy save. 15 Standard scouting skinks, pretty much 1.5 the firepower of chamelons but harder to manouver, just between terradons and chamelons in combat. Large numbers make up for poor stats, if only they don't run...

Is there any unit left out?
Except for the scouting priest with Rod of the storm of course, using Sign of Amul for maximizing the damage...expensive, sloppy but a killer against key units in the enemy lines. Just the chance of causing a panictest for the unit containing the general is tempting. Just too bad it's a one-use only...