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Uraithen
18-01-2006, 16:57
1 Grey Seer mounted on a screaming bell with warpstone amulet, warpscroll and a dispelscroll

1 Chieftain (BSB) with heavy armour and stormbanner (joining the first slaveunit, lead from the back).

1 Plague Priest with the liber bubonicus and a warpstone token (joining the second slaveunit).

1 Warlock Engineer with all upgrades except the warplock pistol, the stormdeamon and a dispelscroll (joining the clanrat pushers).

23 Clanrats with full command (puchers).

25 Clanrats with fullcommand

24 Clanrat slaves with musican

24 clanrat slaves

24 Plaguemonks with fullcommand and two handweapons (6-man front).

3 Ratogres with 3 Packmasters

3 Ratogres with 3 Packmasters

10 Plague Censer Bearers

Total: 2000pts


Ok so this is my list. It has proven powerful in earlier games when I defeated 3 2K armies with just this one list (I won't go into that... but if you have to know I'll tell the story).

So what do you guys think? Do you wanna make any changes or do you have any questions?

Thanks.

patataman
18-01-2006, 17:49
I like it :D
the onli change is to take out the screaming bell and moreclanrats :D

Brother Edwin
18-01-2006, 18:15
Remove rat ogres. Posably the worst unit in the game. Anything is better.


What awful player were you faceing who lost to that with 3,000points?

Pertinax
18-01-2006, 18:40
That was constructive!

I would say that it looks like a pretty nice all round, fun to play and be played against list. I'd play it!

Winning isn't everything, Edwun. The character of the army is just as important.

Brother Edwin
18-01-2006, 18:51
That was constructive!

I would say that it looks like a pretty nice all round, fun to play and be played against list. I'd play it!

Winning isn't everything, Edwun. The character of the army is just as important.

Then why is he asking for help? I will suggest ways to make it more effective of which he can choose to follow or not.

Kahadras
18-01-2006, 19:20
I think he was looking for more than a negative comment. You gave no reason why he should drop the Rat Ogres from a tactical stand point nor did you sugest anything in their place.
Getting back on topic. The list looks fine from where I am standing. Should be interesting to play without being overwhelmingly good or poor. Good to see that you got off to a good start as well.

Kahadras

Pertinax
18-01-2006, 19:32
So what do you guys think?
Doesn't look like help to me. I was merely answering his question with my opinion of his army.

Brother Edwin
18-01-2006, 22:59
What I think it that I would massacre him with any of my lists.

How does he propose to beat brettonians or any calvery army?

He has 2 dispel scrolls and 5 dice. What does he expect to do Vs a magic heavy opponent.

As for rat ogres just look at the point cost and use your brain. You can buy anything in the book and it will be far far more worth its points.

For a start he needs eather some 5 man night runner squads some 2 man globadier squads, one pack giant rat squads or slave squads so he can beat calvery armys.

I also think the plage monks are a huge baitable point sink. I also think 10 censor bearers are too much.

I also think he needs tunnel teams for march blocking and war machine killing.

I would also give all the units ratlings but not if he feels his opponents cant deal with it.

Vosk
18-01-2006, 23:59
I agree with Brother Edwin - he certainly needs some small skirmishing units and/or tunnelers. Especially since he has the Screaming Bell. They can also kill isolated Mages, which is good since you have just 6 Dispel dice and two Scrolls.

The Rat Ogres really should go too - unless you are investing properly and using Skavenbrew on them. Cool unit, but too vulnerable considering how tempting a target they are to people.

That has the added effect of being able to march block large numbers of enemy units, holding them in place so you can pound them with Bell-enhanced magic. Multiple Warp Fire Throwers are also good in such a situation (Ratling Guns too, but I think I prefer Warpfire Throwers - cooler in general and panic is always fun).

My only other question is why put the characters in the Slave units? The Slaves are going to die, and it would be a shame to take the characters with them. The Priest at least belongs with his Monks. Their massed Frenzied attacks, his Flail and the timely intervention of the Censer Bearers can bring down just about anything.

Lord Anathir
19-01-2006, 00:05
Brother Edwin, we dont care about you and your silly lists. you are not a general and you are not a tactician. and NO, squeezing as many PD as you can into 2000pts is NOT TACTICS.

why dont you post a battle report with diagrams showing us how much of a 'superier player' you are? why dont you write a tactica for skaven or lizzardmen?

what i find embarrasing is that even with your waac list you finished a horrible position of what was it....21st? for generalship, and even worse overall, which shows that not only do you not care about the fun of the game, you dont care about painting, fluff, or composition. why dont you just play with toothpicks and pieces of cardboard?

it is one thing to win a tourney and say you are better then eveyrone else, but to finish 21st and say/act like you are the best is just stupid. And the UKGT isnt the only tourney out there, maybe it hasnt occured to you that other people that live outside the Uk and europe play warhammer, and that some people might not want to spend so much $ for a plane ticket and tournament ticket to play against some silly army like yours.

patataman
19-01-2006, 00:11
start again...please use a chat or msn :P

Brother Edwin
19-01-2006, 00:19
I have reported his post.

I want to maake it clear if you have beef with me please use the PM system.

Makaber
19-01-2006, 00:35
If that is somewhat worse than your constant "Next time play better" and "You suck because [Whatever]" statements, then by all means, go ahead and report. However, you're s******* in your own nest and is just likely to **** off mods by wasting their time.

Uraithen
19-01-2006, 01:03
I really had missed the tactic with tunnelers stopping the other army from marching but otherwise I just have some "counter-comments".

I have no real use for warmachines since I'm pretty good at using the stormbanner at the right time and because I almost always roll lucky with it my warpfire-throwers and ratlingguns would only be able to shoot on a 4+ on a D6.

Ratogres are not a waste of point as it really adds to the character of the army and since you can get them frenzied with the deathfrenzy-spell (a very good chance of getting that too since a grey seer is a level 4 wizard).

The slaves are cheap but not worseless. The don't fight as bad as some people think. And since my plaguemonk is in one that regiment really gets some fighting potential and have all the ranks and numbers they need to win a combat. And they can operate out of range of the general and still have an LD of 9.
The same goes for the other slave unit which instead of som fighting ability has a banner and should work well as a support unit (does work well as a support unit to be correct).

The bell is really something that has to stay! I got a great converted one (one clue "winter theme") and it really pumps the unit that pushes it and can make the whole army frenzied (not a bad thing even if the opposing army can control them a little) and there we have it again! Frezied ratogres!
Also it adds to the range and site of my grey seers magic and really protects him against light missile attacks.

Ok... Now I think I've put an answer out there for every comment I've gotten so fare. I'm really happy with all the response I've gotten so far (though I don't really like you (brother Edwin) just complaining without giving me any advice. And because of that I don't think it's other then brave and nice to see that people like makaber (sry if i didn't mention any others with helping/defending topics) stepping in to defend me and my list a little (thanks).

Last though. I didn't fight ONE army with 3000pts. I fought an incredible 3x2000pts ARMIES! One pack of frenzied ratogres and my (then) deathfrenzied plaguemonks held off an entire VC army until my skavens were to far away to catch. A dwarf army at 2000pts didn't get to fire a single shot thanks to the stormbanner (he rolled real bad and weren't in range with his thunderers) and as you all know dwarfs aren't know for speeding across the tabletop to get into action (his army is a shooty-based one). And finally 2000pts Tzenntch mortals. They faced off alone against this army an got litterarly (spelling?) crushed and massacred. Three highlights was when my skitterleaped engineer burned a big hole in the chaoslord on a disc of tzeentch even though he had that kickass wardsave. When my ratogres got the charge on his chosen chaos knights and ripped them limb from limb and finally when two chaos regiments fled from my terrorcausing bellunit (they tried to charge me but fled off the table).

Ok so I was lucky and the 6th turn passed before I had to deal with the other two. Though I was almost unharmed so I think that I could have done it. But in a total the VC player had lost far more zombies than he could ever raise. And the Dwarf player lost his two gyrocopters as I started the stormbanner. And there wasn't a single chaos worshipper left on the table.

Brother Edwin
19-01-2006, 01:15
How do you propose to stop a decent brettonian army from destroying you turn 2?

Uraithen
19-01-2006, 01:25
How do you propose to stop a decent brettonian army from destroying you turn 2?

I have a screaming bell that can possible freak some of there units out with a lucky dice roll.
I'll probably have about 5D6 St5 hits going in all directions with my wizards, at minimum 3D6 St5.
I have censerbearers that I know can ripp most units into R.I.P-state even when they get charged.
The bell unit and the monks should be able to absorb enough without fleeing till they get support. and what is better support than a plague priest and 6 Ratogres?
and finally... I play for fun and I won't go spredding cheddar over my whole army just to win every battle. I've played with it only like 3 times and won all of them and I can't find one thing a want to change (get... I've already started to think about the tunneling gutterrunners).

Yeah... that's it. Any tips?

patataman
19-01-2006, 01:26
I really had missed the tactic with tunnelers stopping the other army from marching but otherwise I just have some "counter-comments".

I have no real use for warmachines since I'm pretty good at using the stormbanner at the right time and because I almost always roll lucky with it my warpfire-throwers and ratlingguns would only be able to shoot on a 4+ on a D6.

Ratogres are not a waste of point as it really adds to the character of the army and since you can get them frenzied with the deathfrenzy-spell (a very good chance of getting that too since a grey seer is a level 4 wizard).

The slaves are cheap but not worseless. The don't fight as bad as some people think. And since my plaguemonk is in one that regiment really gets some fighting potential and have all the ranks and numbers they need to win a combat. And they can operate out of range of the general and still have an LD of 9.
The same goes for the other slave unit which instead of som fighting ability has a banner and should work well as a support unit (does work well as a support unit to be correct).

The bell is really something that has to stay! I got a great converted one (one clue "winter theme") and it really pumps the unit that pushes it and can make the whole army frenzied (not a bad thing even if the opposing army can control them a little) and there we have it again! Frezied ratogres!
Also it adds to the range and site of my grey seers magic and really protects him against light missile attacks.

Ok... Now I think I've put an answer out there for every comment I've gotten so fare. I'm really happy with all the response I've gotten so far (though I don't really like you (brother Edwin) just complaining without giving me any advice. And because of that I don't think it's other then brave and nice to see that people like makaber (sry if i didn't mention any others with helping/defending topics) stepping in to defend me and my list a little (thanks).

Last though. I didn't fight ONE army with 3000pts. I fought an incredible 3x2000pts ARMIES! One pack of frenzied ratogres and my (then) deathfrenzied plaguemonks held off an entire VC army until my skavens were to far away to catch. A dwarf army at 2000pts didn't get to fire a single shot thanks to the stormbanner (he rolled real bad and weren't in range with his thunderers) and as you all know dwarfs aren't know for speeding across the tabletop to get into action (his army is a shooty-based one). And finally 2000pts Tzenntch mortals. They faced off alone against this army an got litterarly (spelling?) crushed and massacred. Three highlights was when my skitterleaped engineer burned a big hole in the chaoslord on a disc of tzeentch even though he had that kickass wardsave. When my ratogres got the charge on his chosen chaos knights and ripped them limb from limb and finally when two chaos regiments fled from my terrorcausing bellunit (they tried to charge me but fled off the table).

Ok so I was lucky and the 6th turn passed before I had to deal with the other two. Though I was almost unharmed so I think that I could have done it. But in a total the VC player had lost far more zombies than he could ever raise. And the Dwarf player lost his two gyrocopters as I started the stormbanner. And there wasn't a single chaos worshipper left on the table.


nice :D ^^ I´m against tu put a bell in a 2000 game but its a guud plan :)

shadowprince
19-01-2006, 02:05
What I think it that I would massacre him with any of my lists.

How does he propose to beat brettonians or any calvery army?

He has 2 dispel scrolls and 5 dice. What does he expect to do Vs a magic heavy opponent.

As for rat ogres just look at the point cost and use your brain. You can buy anything in the book and it will be far far more worth its points.

For a start he needs eather some 5 man night runner squads some 2 man globadier squads, one pack giant rat squads or slave squads so he can beat calvery armys.

I also think the plage monks are a huge baitable point sink. I also think 10 censor bearers are too much.

I also think he needs tunnel teams for march blocking and war machine killing.

I would also give all the units ratlings but not if he feels his opponents cant deal with it.

wow this was actually a non powergameing suggestion my hats of to you

Skitter-Squeek
19-01-2006, 02:29
kk here we go

1. Brother Ed for gods sakes please stop posting on matters of skaven. you have no idea on anything about skaven and even if skaven did exsist in real life they would find your matters of playing Dispicable and very much to there dislike.(even for skaven)

2. Rat ogres by no means suck or are the most worthless unit in the game It all depends on the persons play style tactics and what not.. of course a man who charges his rat ogres into a plague swarm or something with poison attacks or a unit block of 25 plus strong without any back up is asking for trouble. play smart with em and it takes time to find out how to use em correctly. why sometimes I use 9 rat ogres in some games 3 units of three is very intimidating =)


3. remember everyone should play in the best spirits of the game and play for fun... sure we all like to win everytime but that never always happens. If you like your list and have success with it i say to hell with everyone elses opinion if it works for you. also you are the one who spent the numerous hundreds of dollars for the models you should play with them how you like!

T10
19-01-2006, 06:58
For some reason, I think Ogre sized models should be run in units of 4. They still get all their models in contact with the minimum-frontage 16-man blocks if necessary, and that extra model means a lot of extra attacks. Since they also cause fear, having a bigger unit may be surprisingly helpful.

With the points free for two less Rat Ogres you could have a look at taking an additional unit of something or bolstering an existing unit.

-T10

Vosk
19-01-2006, 07:13
For some reason, I think Ogre sized models should be run in units of 4. They still get all their models in contact with the minimum-frontage 16-man blocks if necessary, and that extra model means a lot of extra attacks. Since they also cause fear, having a bigger unit may be surprisingly helpful.

With the points free for two less Rat Ogres you could have a look at taking an additional unit of something or bolstering an existing unit.

-T10

This is a good idea. And he could then get some Gutter Runners. Everyone should have some Gutter Runners. Gutter Runners save lives. By ending them. Vote Gutter Runner.

That spare 100pts could get a nice unit of them. Or twenty Night Runners, which are arguably just as useful. Even a couple of Rat Swarms might be an idea - excellent unit choice.

Baindread
19-01-2006, 08:43
3. remember everyone should play in the best spirits of the game and play for fun... sure we all like to win everytime but that never always happens. If you like your list and have success with it i say to hell with everyone elses opinion if it works for you. also you are the one who spent the numerous hundreds of dollars for the models you should play with them how you like!

And so should Brother Edwin. And thus he gives his opinion of things as he plays it. And I am not choosing sides here, but saying that everyone should play how they like and then say Brother Edwin plays it "wrong" is not very productive or logical.

OP asked for opinions, Edwin gave them. Don't go around bashing people. If he himself is a basher, why stoop to his level?

Skitter-Squeek
19-01-2006, 09:15
Cause he deliberately tells people they are wrong and then says they need all shooty units etc. that last comment was for the guy asking not brother edwin he has his mind made up and its beardy all the way not to mention him and tons like him are the reason thirty peeps a day are bashing skaven.

Brother Edwin
19-01-2006, 09:40
I have a screaming bell that can possible freak some of there units out with a lucky dice roll.

Far too unlikely to be considerd a plan, and they are Ld9 anyway.

I'll probably have about 5D6 St5 hits going in all directions with my wizards, at minimum 3D6 St5.

He will have at least 4 scrolls meaning you actually wont.

I have censerbearers that I know can ripp most units into R.I.P-state even when they get charged.

They will kill a average of 1 brettonian knight with the gas. Then lose.

The bell unit and the monks should be able to absorb enough without fleeing till they get support.
They actually wont. And the plage monks will be baited into a flank charge.

and what is better support than a plague priest and 6 Ratogres?

Almost anything in the game is better.

and finally... I play for fun and I won't go spredding cheddar over my whole army just to win every battle. I've played with it only like 3 times and won all of them and I can't find one thing a want to change (get... I've already started to think about the tunneling gutterrunners).



So adding units which might actually help against armys you cant beat and make the game more tactical is "chedder" is it?


Yeah... that's it. Any tips?

Yes.

Next time play better.


Cause he deliberately tells people they are wrong and then says they need all shooty units etc. that last comment was for the guy asking not brother edwin he has his mind made up and its beardy all the way not to mention him and tons like him are the reason thirty peeps a day are bashing skaven.

And please explain how telling him to night runers, tunnelers, and slaves is "shooty" units?


1. Brother Ed for gods sakes please stop posting on matters of skaven. you have no idea on anything about skaven and even if skaven did exsist in real life they would find your matters of playing Dispicable and very much to there dislike.(even for skaven)

O so being the seccond highest scaven player at the UKGT obvously means I dont know about them.....
Please explain howw I "dont know anything about skaven". Or do you actually not have ANYTHING to back your points up.
All talk but no balls.



2. Rat ogres by no means suck or are the most worthless unit in the game It all depends on the persons play style tactics and what not.. of course a man who charges his rat ogres into a plague swarm or something with poison attacks or a unit block of 25 plus strong without any back up is asking for trouble. play smart with em and it takes time to find out how to use em correctly. why sometimes I use 9 rat ogres in some games 3 units of three is very intimidating =)

To poor players maby.
Have you placed highly at a UKGT with them?



3. remember everyone should play in the best spirits of the game and play for fun... sure we all like to win everytime but that never always happens. If you like your list and have success with it i say to hell with everyone elses opinion if it works for you. also you are the one who spent the numerous hundreds of dollars for the models you should play with them how you like!

So why are you stateing the obvious? He asked for what we thought and it is of course up to him if he takes it or not.

Uraithen
19-01-2006, 14:16
Ok my Bro Ed... so where did I write "please help me build a list that can win UKGT!".

MAN! I LIVE IN SWEDEN! IN A SNOWED IN CITY CALLED UMEĊ! I WONT GET NEAR A SINGLE GT!

Sure I like tips but not tips involving me changing exactly everything that makes my army different from yours. I'll try to get to a GT soon enough and after that we can chat about if you were right or wrong. Hell right now I ONLY play for fun (and yes it is not fun to start losing all your matches so I tried to post my list to see if I had overlooked anything... and I hade Gutterrunners and swarms).

Speaking for my self I think it's kind of great making a skaven army that doesn't contain any of the skavens mega-shooting units. Stormbanner is the other way people seldom go.

Thanks

Sylass
19-01-2006, 19:04
@Brother Edwin

As you should know, we got tired of your attitude and posting style long time ago. We had this conversation already and I'm not interested to repeat myself.

Remember the time when you were formally banned from the Tactic forums? Seems you did not take the hint.

We'll look into something different now. It seems formally banning you from the Tactics subforum didn't help to get the point across...


Nearly forgot about this:
This post earned you your second strike and a 1 week temp ban. 3 strikes and you are permanently banned from using the WarSeer forums. Consider yourself warned...


----

@all the others
Please ignore him instead of feeding fuel to the fire.

Thanks,

~The WarSeer Team.

Skitter-Squeek
19-01-2006, 19:10
Being I will not Get dragged into a Flame war I will keep it simple, Every army list you propose is good, that is if you are a 5 year old with no skill. You constantly suggest the same thing to any skaven player who post a list.



Proposed new skaven players: Hey guys here is my list I don't want it beardy so by all means give comments but not chedder comments.

brother edwin: Oh thats all wrong you need at least 3 engineers and three ratling guns and two warplighting cannons and I would know cause in UKGT they cannot withstand my force of 30 shooting dice and 6 warplightings a turn. And if you do take my advice and still lose it is because you suck as a player.... yep you sure do suck cause that is what my mom told me.


Proposed new skaven player: Anyone else please give me some advice?



random member posting: (usually will comment something brother edwin says then actually give good advice on the persons list.)


Dude every post with you is the same so good job on your Uk gt I am American i will let you know how my gts turn out but other than that It is pointless arguing with you cause you really just don't take hints from other people about how arrogant and clueless you sound. SO on that note I am done posting on anything to do with you. Go ahead and post the same suggestions everytime someone asks and I will do my best to ignore:)