PDA

View Full Version : personality disorder on marines???



trolly
07-10-2009, 04:38
hi.

reading about daily ritual of astartes, although in half-sleep they have to rest.
if not marines, basically still a human, have personality disorder.
crimson fist is 2nd founding of imperial fist, that have lost phase 12 and 17 implants.
what happen after 328.7 hours on rynn worlds incident?
are kantor marines began to see hallucination, get angry easlily, or have worst bolter aim ever?
what supposed to happen, that make kantor decide to give order, " go to sleep now!".
is this mean also that most of renegade marines turn to chaos because lack of sleep?

cheers,
:D

Lord-Caerolion
07-10-2009, 04:46
Well, the catalepsean node allows the Marines to rest parts of their brain at a time, allowing them to rest while marching, or while on sentry duty etc, without compromising efficiency. It's only when they're stuck in combat long-term, and cannot shut off parts of their brain for short periods that problems begin.

Devil Tree
07-10-2009, 05:19
To be fair they did manage go for over 300 hours without any meaningful sleep at all. Hell, if I get less than 6 hour a night I tend to be tired and grumpy. After more than a week and a half, Id figure anyone would be certifiable.

Iuris
07-10-2009, 06:21
The marines' normal state is one major personality disorder...

Borg451
07-10-2009, 11:51
hi.

reading about daily ritual of astartes, although in half-sleep they have to rest.
if not marines, basically still a human, have personality disorder.
crimson fist is 2nd founding of imperial fist, that have lost phase 12 and 17 implants.
what happen after 328.7 hours on rynn worlds incident?
are kantor marines began to see hallucination, get angry easlily, or have worst bolter aim ever?
what supposed to happen, that make kantor decide to give order, " go to sleep now!".
is this mean also that most of renegade marines turn to chaos because lack of sleep?

cheers,
:D

Sorry, English isnt your first language right? all your posts have been almost unbearable to read.

what is your first language and where are you from btw?

PondaNagura
07-10-2009, 20:40
I think this is a case of mis-crossreferences. the list of missing phases relates to the original Index Astartes article and not the current marine dexes list of marine-goody organs.
that is to say the current list of progenoids, are merely a list, not the chronological phases that an initiate undergoes to become a marine (they moved things around during the switch like removing the melanochronic organ so that sallies could be all black).

the IF/successors are missing the betchers gland (acid spit) and sus-an membrane; not the catalepsean node and lyman's ear...

so Rynn's World wouldn't have the problem of not enough sleep and falling over because of balance (they'd have died off looong ago if that were the problem), they just can't spit acid or fall into suspended animation. your references are mixing old standards with not-so-new information.

as for personality disorders, marines are genetically modified reformed-psychopathic cyborgs...they have to have a warrior-condition[edit] even to be considered candidates to be what they are.

endless
07-10-2009, 21:15
Sorry, English isnt your first language right? all your posts have been almost unbearable to read.

what is your first language and where are you from btw?

Is it yours? Pay more more attention in class.

Argastes
07-10-2009, 21:43
I really don't know where people get the idea that Marines are psychopaths or psychotics. A psychopath is someone prone to severely antisocial behavior and disregard of ethical norms. Psychosis is a blanket (non-precise) term for any mental disorder that involves hallucinations, delusions, or thinking disorders. People seem to have gotten it into their heads that psychopathy or psychosis is the same thing as being a killer, which is totally incorrect. Marines aren't psychopaths or psychotics. They're soldiers. PondaNagura, what is a "warrior psychosis", and why do you think that Space Marine recruits must have one? It sounds a term you have made up based on an inaccurate understanding of what the word "psychosis" means.

PondaNagura
07-10-2009, 23:04
you're right psychosis was the wrong word to use...condition perhaps
and you're right that not all psychopaths are killers (though all space marines must be).

aspirants are born into an environment where they must be able to kill most anything their homeworld throws at them (beasts, aliens, forces of nature, other people) at a young age in order to be even viable candidates to become Astartes - since they need to be indoctrinated while their hornmones are still malleable. the weaker ones, whether genetic, physical or mental are weeded out in the next few decades of training and rehabilitation.

modern soldiers aren't usually born into these conditions, they have a civilian life and soldier-mode.
when the battle is over, a soldier's mind turns off soldier-mode and resets to civilian. when this happens a man's conscience can catch up with all that he has done. everybody deals with it differently, some accept it for what it is, others block it out, and others can't always cope (PTSD); they may question the things they've done, even under orders. the act of taking a life is easy, but bearing the responsibility and the consequences of that action is not.

Astartes aren't allowed to turn the soldier-mode off or have no comprehension of a civilian-life, they are perpetually in a state of readiness (that killer instinct redirected through brainwashing, lobotomy and hormonal adjustments) supplement battle-mantras for their conscience in order to self-justify themselves to keep their minds focused on the task at hand - whether it be purging an infestation of aliens or executing the family of heretics (have you ever shot a child before, maybe beheaded a woman because of ideological difference to yours?) all actions are justified by what is in their minds, or what they have been taught (for the Emperor).

they aren't allowed to feel the same compassion for others you and I might, or permitted to fully comprehend their actions...(though a few BL characters have been developed for story purposes as a small exception)

finally, there must be some base amount of psycho/sociopathic tendencies at the core of each Astartes - self-aggrandizement, paranoia, egotism, search to victimize and overpower others, shallow emotion or lack of empathy, juvenile delinquency, impulsive nature: otherwise we wouldn't have the threat of chaos/renegade marines...

this is 40k, it's grimdark with no light at the end of the tunnel because the crews never finished it, humanity forced to fend for itself by any and all extreme means to dig their way out as the monsters in the dark surrounding them close in for the kill.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 23:32
Honestly in the 40K Universe
Arent we all a little insane:D

trolly
07-10-2009, 23:40
hi,


Sorry, English isnt your first language right? all your posts have been almost unbearable to read.

what is your first language and where are you from btw?

actually i write this thread when i wake up from sleep, and i'm from terra btw.


warrior-psychosis

psychosis or psychotic is not a good image for an aspirant.
UM aspirant mostly from noble family and if they are psychosis, their people already remove their ancestor from their seat.
the ability for aspirant to kill, like from deathworld, is indeed a must and if they come from noble world like in maccrage they have to pass several test that so barbaric to see whether they can kill or not.

Cheers,
:D

Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 00:02
hi,



actually i write this thread when i wake up from sleep, and i'm from terra btw.



psychosis or psychotic is not a good image for an aspirant.
UM aspirant mostly from noble family and if they are psychosis, their people already remove their ancestor from their seat.
the ability for aspirant to kill, like from deathworld, is indeed a must and if they come from noble world like in maccrage they have to pass several test that so barbaric to see whether they can kill or not.

Cheers,


:D

Are you still half asleep:)
Because I still have trouble reading your posts.

trolly
08-10-2009, 00:05
hi,


Are you still half asleep:)
Because I still have trouble reading your posts.

how'd you know??
LOL

cheers,
:D

Raka
08-10-2009, 00:15
Username _----> Trolly
--------> Trolly
-------> Troll
TROLL

Borg451
08-10-2009, 15:05
Username _----> Trolly
--------> Trolly
-------> Troll
TROLL

2nded.

Ban Request.

Argastes
08-10-2009, 21:38
you're right psychosis was the wrong word to use...condition perhaps
and you're right that not all psychopaths are killers (though all space marines must be)....

-snip-

....they aren't allowed to feel the same compassion for others you and I might, or permitted to fully comprehend their actions...(though a few BL characters have been developed for story purposes as a small exception)

Right, of course I agree that Marines have been indoctrinated to have a view of warfare and killing that is very different from what modern-day Westerners have, and they don't "switch off" soldier-mode, nor do they feel compassion for those they fight, nor do they question their orders (99% of the time), and so forth.

But I disagree that they are somehow suppressing their conscience when they do this, or that their lack of compassion exists because they aren't "allowed" to feel it, or that they aren't "permitted" to understand their actions. I think we are being ethnocentric when we presume that our own moral norms are the 'natural' ones, and that everyone's conscience naturally tells them that killing is abhorrent, and that Marines must therefore overcome or suppress some kind of inborn reluctance to do what they do, and that they would need to be barred from fully comprehending their actions in order to protect them from the risk of psychological damage (PTSD risk, etc.). Your conscience is an acculturated thing, created by socialization. We have consciences that cry out against killing because we were socialized that way. PTSD is caused by events that overwhelm a person's ability to cope with events or emotions, typically because they clash with our pre-existing ideas about how the world works or should work--and those ideas are themselves constructed via socialization. This is why people from different cultures, who have been acculturated/socialized differently, can display widely varying susceptibility to PTSD, as well as variation in the events that may bring on psychological trauma or PTSD.

Marines aren't raised in anything even remotely similar to any society on Earth, either before or after being recruited. Their ability to do what they do (IMO only, of course) doesn't stem from a "condition", it stems from the way they are acculturated. Saying that they have a "condition" suggests that our view of killing and warfare, and our reactions to these things, are the natural or correct ones, and that people who have totally different views/reactions might have something wrong with them. Again, I think this is ethnocentrism. Their consciences tell them totally different things than what our consciences tell us; they don't need to suppress anything, or be prevented from "fully comprehending their actions", because unlike us, their worldview and moral compass don't dispose them towards suffering emotional trauma stemming from those actions. And this isn't a "condition", it isn't anything wrong with them; it's because of how they were raised, and it's no more or less proper or correct or natural or normal, objectively speaking, than the worldviews and moral compasses that we have as a result of how we were raised.


finally, there must be some base amount of psycho/sociopathic tendencies at the core of each Astartes - self-aggrandizement, paranoia, egotism, search to victimize and overpower others, shallow emotion or lack of empathy, juvenile delinquency, impulsive nature: otherwise we wouldn't have the threat of chaos/renegade marines...

But it doesn't necessarily follow from that threat that there must be such tendencies at the core of EACH Astartes; only that that there must be such tendencies at the core of SOME Astartes (possibly a quite small minority of Astartes in modern Chapters). Even out of the original Traitor Legions, surely a good number of the traitors were led astray by loyalty and credulity towards their Primarchs, rather than by the personality traits you list (though of course plenty of them WERE motivated at least in part by those traits as well).

In fact I'd go so far as to say that even modern Astartes who go renegade aren't necessarily motivated by the psychopathic/sociopathic tendencies you list. Of course some are, but not necessarily all. I think it would also be possible for Marines to be led astray by the best of intentions. Obviously in real-life psychology it's dubious how someone motivated by these good intentions could end up going down the road to the behavior we see from renegade Marines, but in 40K--unlike in real life--we have the influence of Chaos to consider, which seems capable of warping minds as well as bodies, often against the will (or without the full awareness) of the victim. In a universe with these supernatural influences, I think it's possible for someone to eventually be led into the depravity and cruelty we see from Chaos Marines even if they didn't start out with sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies (and in fact that's probably what happened, to some degree, to some of the Traitor Marines whose treason was motivated by loyalty/credulity towards their Primarchs rather than by the tendencies you mention.)

Solar_Eclipse
08-10-2009, 22:30
It's hardly ethnocentric to believe that all people have a conscience surrounding killing. Its a basic trait of all creatures that can think, just many are better at suppressing it at others.

Argastes
09-10-2009, 00:44
It's hardly ethnocentric to believe that all people have a conscience surrounding killing. Its a basic trait of all creatures that can think, just many are better at suppressing it at others.

Several problems with this statement.

Firstly, what do you mean by "all creatures that can think"? That's a meaningless term unless you define "thinking". Do you simply mean humans? Or are you referring to some broader group of creatures which includes humans? If it's the former, you should have just said so; if it's the latter, you are either trying to ascribe conscience to (at least some) animals, or to hypothetical non-human organisms about which we know absolutely nothing. Either way, a statement that you may have trouble defending...

Secondly, even limiting ourselves just to humans, what is your basis for claiming that all humans have a conscience, or a conscience in specific regard to killing, and that this trait is "basic"? Any evidence for this? Or do you just feel like it must be true? In fact, if you include people with certain types of brain damage, it's patently false. Even excluding those extreme cases, why do you take this for granted?

Thirdly and lastly, even if we assume that all people do indeed have consciences, you have totally misunderstood what I said in my previous post. I didn't say that it's ethnocentric to believe that everyone has a conscience, either generally or with specific regard to killing. I said that it's ethnocentric to believe that our particular moral views and emotional reactions towards killing are universal or natural. That's not the same thing. Moral attitudes are our ideas about what are right and wrong; conscience is the ability to distinguish between the two, and to have an emotional reaction to doing right or doing wrong. I'm not saying Marines don't have consciences, because I fully agree that a Marine is capable of distinguishing between right and wrong, and of experiencing a feeling of rectitude when he acts rightly and of guilt when he acts wrongly. That's conscience, and Marines have it. But what makes them difference from us is that the moral values which their conscience operates in relation to--their ideas about what particular acts are right vs. what particular acts are wrong--are radically different from ours. Because morality is socially constructed, and Marines have been socialized in a way that's radically different to the way in which we've been socialized. I realize I wasn't entirely clear about this in my previous post, and probably used the word "conscience" in a few places when I should have said "moral values" instead, so perhaps the misunderstanding is partially my fault.

PondaNagura
09-10-2009, 01:55
of course I'm calling them psychos from a current cultural contexts (as well as cyborg since that's a term not even used in 40k background anymore), the whole future is made up of madmen (especially the protagonists), they're supposed to be all crazy by our eyes.

otherwise the setting wouldn't be marketed as grim and dark, it would be in the "moderately bleak, but they're a 'product of their surroundings so we'll forgive them for it' distant future, there is constant disagreement to ideological struggles of the physical and metaphysical, but really they mean well".

even by 40k standards there have been cases of non-chaos "did it" where psychotics have emerged and been punished by even the extremes of imperial society case in point: Night Lords (not all of them were from Nostramo, most were from Terra) and more recently Vandire.

but let's not go into contemporary views of what's right and wrong in modern western society...since most of the laws have been adopted/tweaked form previous Near Eastern cultures with a hint of leniency (Code of Hammurabi: if you do something wrong, lie to to us, waste the courts time, or steal you're going to die as punishment) only because we'll go way off topic, and I can bring up some grisly experiences not fit for some of the viewers of this forum to support that humanity has an innate understanding of right and wrong (and not just by product of their upbringing).

Argastes
09-10-2009, 02:50
of course I'm calling them psychos from a current cultural contexts (as well as cyborg since that's a term not even used in 40k background anymore), the whole future is made up of madmen (especially the protagonists), they're supposed to be all crazy by our eyes.

otherwise the setting wouldn't be marketed as grim and dark, it would be in the "moderately bleak, but they're a 'product of their surroundings so we'll forgive them for it' distant future, there is constant disagreement to ideological struggles of the physical and metaphysical, but really they mean well".

:eyebrows: I think you may be misunderstanding me a bit as well. I'm not saying Marines aren't appalling and frightening to us, or aren't meant to be, because of their attitudes and behaviors. Nor do I understand why you think that what I'm saying isn't suitably grim/dark and is overly wishy-washy (or whatever you mean, your second sentence there is somewhat incoherent).

What isn't grim and dark about a future where human societies have become so violent and hopeless, and so contorted by pervasive violence and hopelessness, that they can (and in fact WANT to!) produce people whose moral compasses and worldviews are firmly oriented towards total ruthlessness, permanent warfare, and mass murder? Isn't that a vision of madness? Just because I'm saying that individual Marines don't literally suffer from mental conditions (psychopathy, sociopathy, psychosis, or whatever else) doesn't mean that they, and the society that produces them, and the setting that encapsulates them, don't seem 'insane' (in the non-medical sense) to us.... Or that I'm trying to advance whatever viewpoint you were trying to paraphrase above.

Frankly, I think that this interpretation is much more chilling than just saying that since 40K is a future dominated by war and madness, the characters all have to have literal mental disorders.


even by 40k standards there have been cases of non-chaos "did it" where psychotics have emerged and been punished by even the extremes of imperial society case in point: Night Lords (not all of them were from Nostramo, most were from Terra) and more recently Vandire.

Right, I'm certainly not saying there aren't psychotics and psychopaths in 40K! Of course there are. That doesn't have anything to do with my point, though. My point is that the behavior of Space Marines doesn't necessarily indicate that they are 'crazy' or psychopathic or suffer from other mental disorders.


but let's not go into contemporary views of what's right and wrong in modern western society...since most of the laws have been adopted/tweaked form previous Near Eastern cultures with a hint of leniency (Code of Hammurabi: if you do something wrong, lie to to us, waste the courts time, or steal you're going to die as punishment) only because we'll go way off topic,

Agreed 100%, I'm not at all interested in going into contemporary Western morality, and I don't think I've done anything to steer the thread in that direction. In fact, the stuff you say here, in the middle of your warning against discussing Western morality, seems to be the most that anyone has said about Western morality thus far ;).


and I can bring up some grisly experiences not fit for some of the viewers of this forum to support that humanity has an innate understanding of right and wrong (and not just by product of their upbringing).

I would certainly be fascinated to hear about information you have supporting the idea of a biological basis for morality, or the idea that certain moral principles are innately known to all persons. I'm not closed to sociobiological theories of morality; when it comes to the question of "nature vs. nurture", I think that most informed people would agree that the answer is "some of both" (as with most other this-or-that questions about human behavior), and that the real question is "how much of each?". I do tend to lean towards socialization being more significant, but again, I'd be interested in any new evidence you have. If you think that whatever you have to say is so horrifying that you can't post it, just PM me.

Solar_Eclipse
09-10-2009, 02:54
but let's not go into contemporary views of what's right and wrong in modern western society...since most of the laws have been adopted/tweaked form previous Near Eastern cultures with a hint of leniency (Code of Hammurabi: if you do something wrong, lie to to us, waste the courts time, or steal you're going to die as punishment) only because we'll go way off topic, and I can bring up some grisly experiences not fit for some of the viewers of this forum to support that humanity has an innate understanding of right and wrong (and not just by product of their upbringing).

Right and wrong is a bad way to put it. More conductive to the existence and propagation of a species, as well as inclusion of the fight or flight syndrome.

PondaNagura
09-10-2009, 04:18
sorry guys my mind has been distracted as of late with issues too close to our discussion and I think some of it has bled over into my responses :(

I guess each person has a view of how marines indoctrinate and from whom they indoctrinate their aspirants from, true not all marines have to have a point of craziness. that and the nature of 40k has been reshaped from some its earlier concept of reformed criminals to space knights.

Raphaus
09-10-2009, 04:43
I guess each person has a view of how marines indoctrinate and from whom they indoctrinate their aspirants from, true not all marines have to have a point of craziness. that and the nature of 40k has been reshaped from some its earlier concept of reformed criminals to space knights.

I think there are as many variations on indoctrination as there are marine chapters and while we could argue about how psychotic marines are for ever I think it might be fairer to suggest that Imperial culture in the 41st millenium is a pathological culture.

It produces behaviour in Imperial citizens that from a western real world perspective looks psychotic. (I don't mention non western world views because I don't know enough about the subject and would probably talk nonsense). Marine chapters in particular have a wide variety of tactics to cope with the stress of perpetual warfare based on a fanatical religeous system that fosters an introspective view of the galaxy.

If you believe that only the Emperor, your Primarch and your battle brethren have any true worth then the slaughter of men, women and children that you believe to be deviant from the "one true faith" is bound to be psychologically easier for you.

That said I've heard it suggested that up to 10% of the human population are psychopaths, if this is so then I would suggest that most marines are psychopaths (in the clinical sense). It would certainly fit with the brutality of a space marine attack or the ferocity of marine defenders.

I find it unlikely that GW would ever venture an opinion on this though, to admit that the ever popular space marines are proper nutjob killers with those terms of reference could come back to haunt them, the game is played by lots of kids and parents would be horrified if little Jonny became obsessed with a bunch of Psychos.

Iuris
09-10-2009, 06:33
I still say that the marine building process creates an inhuman mind, a collection of mental disorders that do work together as a whole and make for a more resistant mind. Silly as it may sound.

Argastes
09-10-2009, 06:43
I still say that the marine building process creates an inhuman mind, a collection of mental disorders that do work together as a whole and make for a more resistant mind. Silly as it may sound.

What is a "human" mind, what traits qualify a mind as "inhuman", and what mental disorders do Space Marines have?

DarkMatter2
09-10-2009, 06:52
I actually agree with Argastes; it is hopelessly naive of history to believe that a human being cannot be socialized in such a way as to find killing and violence enjoyable.

Especially because the Marines and Guard have The Emperor, who can serve to some extent as an analogue to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god, and thus create a belief system wherein their actions are not only socially acceptable but encouraged in the name of a being who is all-righteous and has a "plan" for the galaxy. You get someone to believe in something like a God or a national destiny strong enough and he will very likely embrace any amount of violence in it's name. Just look at any of the photos from the Second World War in which cheery German soldaten watch Jews rounded up and shot execution style.

I've never particularly cared for some of the modern IG fluff like 15 Hours wherein the guardsmen are portrayed similarly to Vietnam veterans or WWI soldiers with PTSD. I think the more universe-appropriate concept for a Guardsman fits somewhere within the spectrum of insane, frothing-at-the-mouth religious zealot and deeply, deeply religious professional soldier. Portrayals of Guardsmen as regular joes "just doing their job" have always struck me as disappointing and a betrayal of the warped mindset of the 40k universe.

Scorpius_78
09-10-2009, 07:25
I actually agree with Argastes; it is hopelessly naive of history to believe that a human being cannot be socialized in such a way as to find killing and violence enjoyable.

Especially because the Marines and Guard have The Emperor, who can serve to some extent as an analogue to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god, and thus create a belief system wherein their actions are not only socially acceptable but encouraged in the name of a being who is all-righteous and has a "plan" for the galaxy. You get someone to believe in something like a God or a national destiny strong enough and he will very likely embrace any amount of violence in it's name. Just look at any of the photos from the Second World War in which cheery German soldaten watch Jews rounded up and shot execution style.

I've never particularly cared for some of the modern IG fluff like 15 Hours wherein the guardsmen are portrayed similarly to Vietnam veterans or WWI soldiers with PTSD. I think the more universe-appropriate concept for a Guardsman fits somewhere within the spectrum of insane, frothing-at-the-mouth religious zealot and deeply, deeply religious professional soldier. Portrayals of Guardsmen as regular joes "just doing their job" have always struck me as disappointing and a betrayal of the warped mindset of the 40k universe.

I think its both personly. I mean you have to think about all the different worlds these people are coming from.

Sure you will have your religious warriors who would happily march across no-mans lands if you told them it was the Emperor's will.

But you will also get people from a world where they really don't care about the Imperium as a whole. A planet where (as far as thier concerned) Imperium is just a few ships that come every few year to take taxes and soldier. Sure the soldiers that are taken into the gaurd will gain a new understanding of the Imperium but the same basic attitude will still remain.

NightrawenII
09-10-2009, 09:07
As Argastes said Marines are psychotic only from our point of view, to expand his reasoning:

Human character (or nature) is formed by three factors:

1) Inborn abilities, the man can be choleric, flegmatic or simple loser.
2) Enviroment, people from lower classes (no offence) are more susceptible to stealing or joining a gangs, while upper classes are bastards, who think everything is allowed.
3) Education, look at the Argastes posts.

Then marines:
Most of the Chapters recruit from feral/death worlds, so your future aspirant is born in the warrior culture, where the figting and killing is daily rutine as in our world is car-riding or watching a tv. He learn how to fight and what is more important; He believe, his clan/lord/nation is "good and best" and neighbours are raiders, who are pillaging and raping (which doesn mean, his clan behave differently).
Thanks his inborn predisposition, he is then inducted into chapter (marines recruting program is aimed to select an natural killers), in the another warrior culture, the human neighbours change to alien neighbours. He learn about Emperor(worshipping Emperor is "good") and Humanity(=best) and heretics, alien and mutants(=evil and wrong).

So, as Argastes said; the marines conscience isnt triggered, because he is doing a right thing. The only real problems came with things like shelling refugees camp in order to stop a enemy advance, but seeing how the Marines Malevolent sorted this "problem", I dont see any moral issues at all.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-10-2009, 13:11
So, given all of the above, what problems do you all suppose a Space Marine would have? Chaplains are there to minister to their brothers' needs; I've always seen this as a spiritual and psychological function. What do they treat, and who do they tend to?


(they moved things around during the switch like removing the melanochronic organ so that sallies could be all black).

I wish they hadn't, it could have been simply explained as a malfunction of the Melanchrome combined with the radiation of Nocturne.


i'm from terra btw.

Okay.

guillimansknight
09-10-2009, 23:29
1) Inborn abilities, the man can be choleric, flegmatic or simple loser.


please explain.


Question. Why do people think that your moral view is dependant on outward factors? Or am I the only person to philosophise about things?


I Just look at any of the photos from the Second World War in which cheery German soldaten watch Jews rounded up and shot execution style.



Accutaly I think the Jews would be a better example for the imperium
being more vengence motivated after the war than the smiley Germans who probably cracked after following the order "shoot them or I shoot you"

Argastes
10-10-2009, 00:54
Question. Why do people think that your moral view is dependant on outward factors? Or am I the only person to philosophise about things?

You'd have to phrase this question more clearly before anyone could answer. What do you mean "dependent on outward factors"?

guillimansknight
10-10-2009, 00:58
You'd have to phrase this question more clearly before anyone could answer. What do you mean "dependent on outward factors"?

Genetics, education, and brain damge ect

Argastes
10-10-2009, 02:02
I still don't understand. You are asking what, exactly, about morality? If moral values derive neither from "nature" (genetics, etc.) or "nurture" (education and upbringing), where are you suggesting they come from?

burad
10-10-2009, 02:21
If you want to see a recent example of a portrayal of a culture with very different values than the current Western "norm" (Whatever that means), go watch "Apocalypto". They certainly didn't think their murderous actions were morally wrong. And look at all the 'honor killings' that go on in several societies today. They certainly don't think what they are doing is wrong, by their standards. Morality is a learned thing.

Lord-Caerolion
10-10-2009, 04:06
Or for an example that it doesn't take a mental disorder to kill, have a look at the Milgram experiment. People were put through a process where they tested another "participant" behind a wall (who was actually in on the whole thing), and would shock them each time they got a wrong answer, or didn't answer, increasing the volage each time. 65% of participants went the whole way, giving the other participant the full 450 volts, even when hearing them start screaming, and then having the "participant" not even respond, making it seem like they were either in a coma or dead.

Lastman
10-10-2009, 04:29
Didn't the early editions of 40k portray the space marines as murderous sociopaths?

"Kil Kil Kil" appeared in some early advertising if memory serves. Altered after a tap on the shoulder by the marketing department no doubt.

Wolfblade670
10-10-2009, 07:34
In the early years of 40k many marines were criminals and other assorted scum, inducted into the Marines and mentally and physically rewired into maniacal killing machines (often simply expanding upon their previous tendencies).

The Chaplains may play a part in the whole Marine Psychology discussion. In the Zulu and some other tribal cultures, warriors will seek out a shaman post-combat to have their bodys and spirits cleansed of the bad karma (for lack of a better term) that came with taking human life.

Aliarzathanil
11-10-2009, 06:24
There really doesn't seem to be anything irrational about marine behaviour, let alone psychopathic. Is killing xenos really even wrong? Is it wrong to kill a tyranid? More so than a Tau? Why? Is being violent and aggressive not an effective response to a violent environment?

If any race has issues, it would be the Eldar.

pfulk4u
12-10-2009, 08:05
Honestly in the 40K Universe
Arent we all a little insane:D

Amen to that brother.

Lucifer216
12-10-2009, 08:59
In the case of the Milgram experiment, it demonstrated that people's reluctance to kill or inflict pain on someone else, can be easily overridden by an authority figure. This overrode massive reluctance to carry out the shocks. Perhaps more a more pertinent example would be the experiment in which monkeys refused to feed if doing so meant that another monkey suffered an electric shock in plain sight.

Part of the reason why we as a species are likely to be rather diverse in our responses to killing is the tendency of women in tribal cultures to prefer mates who actively go out and kill members of other tribes. Abducting women in raids has also had a long tradition, as remarked on by literary figures such as Achilles and exemplified by the vikings.

NightrawenII
12-10-2009, 09:50
Part of the reason why we as a species are likely to be rather diverse in our responses to killing is the tendency of women in tribal cultures to prefer mates who actively go out and kill members of other tribes. Abducting women in raids has also had a long tradition, as remarked on by literary figures such as Achilles and exemplified by the vikings.

This is probably heritage of evolution mechanic. Ie. bringing new *blood* to your gene-pool, instead having babies with your (possible) relatives.

Lucifer216
12-10-2009, 11:20
I'd agree that this is probably the underlying motivation at an unconscious level. There is also the fact that historically, the tendency for the most high status males to have multiple wives/harems, meant that for most of our evolution, there was much more of a "winner-takes-all" approach to human reproduction.

Going back to the question of socialiation, I think it's worth noting that child soldiers reportedly take to the killing with relatively little cognitive dissonance and seem to be able to be resocialised relatively well. I understand that this is probably due to the childhood state being associated with an acceptance that current circumstances are a normal or default state. It is only once you've reached adulthood, that it becomes harder to react to a switch to a violent existence, as your mindset is locked into the more or less peaceful state that was your childhood.

Perhaps the clearest example of how attempts at social engineering can create a society characterised by what could be interpreted as psychotic behavior, is China's cultural revolution, which shares some parallels with the Milgram experiment. Fears of being seen as "counter-revolutionary", got compounded with the instinct to punish those that were labeled as such and spiraled into widespread torture, cruelty and cultural vandalism.

I think when we discuss this sort of thing, people don't tend to consider just how different the society and people of a marine-recruitment world would be from those of modern day Earth.

The speed of natural selection can vary tremendously and is highly dependent on the strength of selection pressures. For example, imagine the proportion of initial die-off in the colonisation of a deathworld. Although there's less than 38,000 years for evolution to work, that's still around 2000 generations with which it can work with. Cultural adaptation on the other hand, works at a much faster pace and can occur in days if enough pressure is applied. Take the example of cannibalism, one of the greatest taboos in our culture. Deprive a group of food for long enough, and there's a good chance it will occur.

To conclude, I'd say that marine recruits do not have to be insane by any definition and could well be by the standards of their culture, be well socialised.

Lucifer216
12-10-2009, 11:35
There is another quirk in that in a feral or deathworld society, survival is dependent on the rapid acquisition of hunter/warrior skills. These skills have to be taught and education is an important part of the socialisation procees. In general, the children that pick these skills up at the fastest rate are likely being socialised faster than their peers and it is this sub-set of the population that you would think would be most likely to be marine potential.