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eyescrossed
07-10-2009, 06:21
So, I had my first game with WoC about 2 weeks ago, and I have to say it was pretty one sided.

I played against my friend, who plays Lizardmen. I'll post both the lists we used.

Mine was

Lord: Sigvald the Magnificent - 425

Heroes: Exalted Hero BSB with MoK, Jugger, Chaos Runesword and shield - 255

Lvl2 Sorcerer with MoT, Power Familiar and Dispel Scroll - 190

Lvl2 Sorcerer with MoT and 2 Dispel Scrolls - 190

Core: 12 Warriors of Chaos with shields and FC – 222

12 Warriors of Chaos with MoK, shields and FC – 252

5 Warhounds – 30

5 Warhounds – 30

5 Marauder Horsemen with flails and musician – 81

Special: 12 Chosen with MoS, halberds, shields, FC, Favour of the Gods and Rapturous Standard – 325

5 Knights with standard bearer, musician, Warbanner and MoS – 265

5 Knights with musician and MoK – 240

Total: 2505 points

I think the problem was that I have 2 units of Knights.


His was (I'm just copying it from word, the asterices are magic items)

Lord: Slann, +1PD, Whole lore, * * 395 pts

Heroes: Skink Chief, stegadon (ancient.) * 380 pts

Priest, level 2, * * 150 pts

Scar-vet, BSB, light armour, shield * 168 pts

Core: 10 Skink Skirmishers 70 pts

10 Skink Skirmishers 70 pts

10 Skink Skirmishers 70 pts

10 Skinks 50 pts

18 Saurus, spears, standard, musician 234 pts

18 Saurus, spears, standard, musician 234 pts

Special: 5 Cold One Riders, Standard, musician. 215 pts

24 Temple Guard, musician, standard 405 pts

Rare: Salamander 75 pts

Total: 2506 pts


Now I don't collect Lizardmen, so I don't know much about them, but it looks like it had a bit too much put into Temple Guard, and the fact that I had 3 Scrolls and a fair bit of DD just ruined his Magic Phase.


What I'd do to balance it: since we played with paper miniatures for some of it (don't ask) and I didn't have my Knights built, I'm thinking that I could just build the Slaaneshi Knights as a display unit and something to use in larger games, and replace them with a Slaaneshi Giant, which puts my list at exactly 2500 points.

I would also change the BSB to a Standard Bearer in the Khorne Knights.

Hmm... Oh, and definately change out AT LEAST 2 scrolls for other things.

What do you think?

Seville
07-10-2009, 06:28
I am writing this hastily and mean no offense at all - apologies if my comments seem curt.

Your list honestly isn't all that broken at all... 2 units of knights in 2500 is actually on the very low side. I'd say four units of 5 at that point level starts getting a bit cheesy.

You're supposed to have lots of anti-magic against the lizardmen. Three dispel scrolls is again on the low side.

Your 325 point unit of chosen is almost giving away 325 points...

Rather, it looks like his list is weak. No Stegadons at all? I don't know much about them, either, but, just at a glance, his list looks weak.

Paraelix
07-10-2009, 06:29
Army lists only count for so much. You're right though, his list has a bit too much invested in TG. Probably needs another skink priest w/ engine of the gods.

My guess would be he didn't use available terrain very well. Didn't use magic too well either.

I played vs DE with 4 dispel, 4 scrolls, a ring of hotek, and a null talisman a few days ago... and my Lizards magic did a fair amount of the killing. You just need to know where to apply it.

I don't think your army is *that* bad... Although I dislike "scroll caddies" and I think its a little anti-fluff to run khorne/slaanesh lists...

eyescrossed
07-10-2009, 06:38
I am writing this hastily and mean no offense at all - apologies if my comments seem curt.
No offense anyway :)




Your list honestly isn't all that broken at all... 2 units of knights in 2500 is actually on the very low side. I'd say four units of 5 at that point level starts getting a bit cheesy.
Ah, okay.




You're supposed to have lots of anti-magic against the lizardmen. Three dispel scrolls is again on the low side.
I do suppose I could go without 2 of them, though.




Your 325 point unit of chosen is almost giving away 325 points...
Well they only got into combat twice, but they're very hard to break - they only do on the roll of a natural 11 (due to Stubborn from Sigvald and the Rapturous Standard).




Rather, it looks like his list is weak. No Stegadons at all? I don't know much about them, either, but, just at a glance, his list looks weak.
Well as you can see, he had his Skink Chief on one, and he had a Warspear.




Army lists only count for so much. You're right though, his list has a bit too much invested in TG. Probably needs another skink priest w/ engine of the gods.
And then I would need Scroll Caddies, eh? ;)




My guess would be he didn't use available terrain very well. Didn't use magic too well either.
To be fair, we didn't use terrain (long time 40k player, don't have anything suitable).
But, with the magic, he chose the whole Lore of Metal for his Slann, but thanks to Favour of the Gods, I got MR3 on the Chosen, so if he even tried to use Spirit of the Forge on them (can't remember) he wouldn't have succeeded.




I played vs DE with 4 dispel, 4 scrolls, a ring of hotek, and a null talisman a few days ago... and my Lizards magic did a fair amount of the killing. You just need to know where to apply it.
To be fair, we're both relatively noobish to Fantasy, and you probably had a lot more magic than him.




I don't think your army is *that* bad... Although I dislike "scroll caddies" and I think its a little anti-fluff to run khorne/slaanesh lists...
Anti-fluff? It's based on fluff that I'm writing :p

When I first posted this list people told me they couldn't see the fluffy part of it, so I told them the TL;DR version of my fluff. I could dig it up for you if you wanted.

Althwen
07-10-2009, 07:29
2 units of knights is ineed on the low side in a 2500pts battle... I dont leave home without 2 units and I usually play 2000pts.

Chosen are a waste of points IMO... they're good and all, but I dont think I've ever had a unit of Chaos Warriors fail where Chosen would have succeeded and they come at what...a 100pts less? That's a lot.

I only played like 2 or 3 battles vs Lizardmen, and if it was one-sided for your WoC, he was either having a bad day or just inst that good. There's plenty in their list that can give WoC a serious headache.
Lots of nasty, fastmoving skinks and a couple of Big Nasties who tend to give WoC plenty of trouble nowadays...

EDIT: PLaying without terrain is probably where you guys went wrong... Lizardmen need terrain... But as a WoC general it would be a dream come true...
"Come here you nasty Dark Elves! You can run, but you can't hide! Literally!"

eyescrossed
07-10-2009, 07:48
2 units of knights is ineed on the low side in a 2500pts battle... I dont leave home without 2 units and I usually play 2000pts.
Yeah, I guess...




Chosen are a waste of points IMO... they're good and all, but I dont think I've ever had a unit of Chaos Warriors fail where Chosen would have succeeded and they come at what...a 100pts less? That's a lot.
Except that they can easily get whatever I want them to most of the time (whether it be +1 AS, +1 T, 4+ Ward).




I only played like 2 or 3 battles vs Lizardmen, and if it was one-sided for your WoC, he was either having a bad day or just inst that good. There's plenty in their list that can give WoC a serious headache.
Lots of nasty, fastmoving skinks and a couple of Big Nasties who tend to give WoC plenty of trouble nowadays...
Well, maybe it was the table. If we had a table that was a bit bigger it would've been easier for him I reckon.




EDIT: PLaying without terrain is probably where you guys went wrong... Lizardmen need terrain... But as a WoC general it would be a dream come true...
"Come here you nasty Dark Elves! You can run, but you can't hide! Literally!"
Sigh. I really need to buy terrain.

Seville
07-10-2009, 16:47
I was wondering how Sigvald performed. He seems really good, but I've never used him. I'm always hesitant to put 750 points into a single unit that walks, though... and, as you mention, the unit only got into combat twice.

But it seems like it would be fun!

Harwammer
07-10-2009, 16:54
Slightly off topic here, but don't you have jungle terrain you could use from 40k?

It would be perfect for lizardmen.

Enigmatik1
07-10-2009, 17:16
I was wondering how Sigvald performed. He seems really good, but I've never used him. I'm always hesitant to put 750 points into a single unit that walks, though... and, as you mention, the unit only got into combat twice.

But it seems like it would be fun!

I don't think it'd be that bad if you used terrain to your advantage since it doesn't hinder Sigvald or his unit. I'd argue he'd be even better on a board that favors Lizardmen (i.e. trees, swamps, etc) as none of that hinders how his unit moves.

I'd be inclined to pop Siggy in a Marauder unit, as I think you're ultimately right about putting him in something more expensive. Sigvald in a unit of Chosen, for instance, is screaming "avoid this unit at all costs."

Tarian
07-10-2009, 17:22
-snip-
Sigvald in a unit of Chosen, for instance, is screaming "avoid this unit at all costs."

Or... "Everything that can cause damage without touching them... FIRE!"

Paraelix
07-10-2009, 23:13
No offense anyway :)To be fair, we didn't use terrain (long time 40k player, don't have anything suitable).
But, with the magic, he chose the whole Lore of Metal for his Slann, but thanks to Favour of the Gods, I got MR3 on the Chosen, so if he even tried to use Spirit of the Forge on them (can't remember) he wouldn't have succeeded.

To be fair, we're both relatively noobish to Fantasy, and you probably had a lot more magic than him.

Anti-fluff? It's based on fluff that I'm writing :p

When I first posted this list people told me they couldn't see the fluffy part of it, so I told them the TL;DR version of my fluff. I could dig it up for you if you wanted.

Feel free to PM me the story, I'd be interested to hear it.

My army runs a Slann, a Priest on foot and a Priest on Engine- Effectively Lvl 4+, Lvl 3, Lvl 2, and the unstoppable ability of the Engine. It is a magic heavy army, yes. But heavy by no means equals unstoppable. I'm super prone to miscasts and can only really ignore 1 of them :(

Scenery is kinda of mandatory in fantasy. Skinks have rules for hiding in water features... Luring knights and chariots into woods is a tactic I use alot... Not having those available, yeah... Warriors will stomp Lizards. They just don't have the CC power to stop them, and without scenery features to utilise and funnel your troops you can pretty much waltz across the board and trounce your opponent. PLUS, scenery works for you too... Most people forget that Sigvald lets his unit walk straight through unmolested... So charging some skirmishers on the edge of a forest isn't going to ruin your unit as much as another unit would be.

Axis
07-10-2009, 23:51
Warriors do best on table with no terrain. Not surprising that you beat him then.

eyescrossed
08-10-2009, 01:08
I was wondering how Sigvald performed. He seems really good, but I've never used him. I'm always hesitant to put 750 points into a single unit that walks, though... and, as you mention, the unit only got into combat twice.

But it seems like it would be fun!
He's not very good againt heavily armoured things either. 7 Str5 attacks, sure they're good, but not very good for killing, say, Knights.
Also, the Stubborn is a real boon. I never have to even worry about them breaking, especially with the banner.
His ASF is good too, since even if they get charged, he'll strike first in a challenge.




Slightly off topic here, but don't you have jungle terrain you could use from 40k?

It would be perfect for lizardmen.
Nope. Ruins, craters, a wrecked space ship, etc.




I don't think it'd be that bad if you used terrain to your advantage since it doesn't hinder Sigvald or his unit. I'd argue he'd be even better on a board that favors Lizardmen (i.e. trees, swamps, etc) as none of that hinders how his unit moves.

I'd be inclined to pop Siggy in a Marauder unit, as I think you're ultimately right about putting him in something more expensive. Sigvald in a unit of Chosen, for instance, is screaming "avoid this unit at all costs."
well, I'm going to make some forest terrain with paper (ie: draw trees, cut them out and stick them to a piece of paper) since what the terrain actually IS in Fantasy doesn't matter.

Also, if they avoid Siggie and the Chosen (who is normally in the centre of my battleline), they have to deal with 2 units of Knights.




Or... "Everything that can cause damage without touching them... FIRE!"
Except Lizardmen aren't known for their spectacular shooting :p




Feel free to PM me the story, I'd be interested to hear it.

My army runs a Slann, a Priest on foot and a Priest on Engine- Effectively Lvl 4+, Lvl 3, Lvl 2, and the unstoppable ability of the Engine. It is a magic heavy army, yes. But heavy by no means equals unstoppable. I'm super prone to miscasts and can only really ignore 1 of them :(

Scenery is kinda of mandatory in fantasy. Skinks have rules for hiding in water features... Luring knights and chariots into woods is a tactic I use alot... Not having those available, yeah... Warriors will stomp Lizards. They just don't have the CC power to stop them, and without scenery features to utilise and funnel your troops you can pretty much waltz across the board and trounce your opponent. PLUS, scenery works for you too... Most people forget that Sigvald lets his unit walk straight through unmolested... So charging some skirmishers on the edge of a forest isn't going to ruin your unit as much as another unit would be.
Wow, that's a lot of magic.
I'll PM you the story later, if you want (when I'm home), just PM me.
Also, yeah... I think we'll just use paper terrain while we don't have money to spend.




Warriors do best on table with no terrain. Not surprising that you beat him then.
Sorry, I didn't realise.

Paraelix
08-10-2009, 01:57
Craters will work. Difficult terrain, and skinks may even be able to squeeze soft cover out of it. My store has some craters turned into fens by pouring water effect into them and adding some sticks and shrubs... As a water effect, it automatically gives soft cover to skinks/sallies/kroxigor, and can be argued to be difficult or impassable terrain depending...

Also, Lizardman shooting *is* spectacular. Salamander drops a template at S3 -3sv and causes instant panic test if you suffer a casualty. Brilliant for dropping warriors.
Razordons have an output of up to 60 shots when making a stand and shoot, and that ignores most shooting modifiers.
Skinks just rapid fire poison everywhere... I took 3 wounds off a Hydra in a game the other day- T5 4+sv 4+ regen vs 10 skinks with Blowpipes over 2 turns. Enough wounding hits and you will fail some armour saves.
Then the ancient steg pours out massed poison, and the normal steg fires a bolt thrower for monster clearing and knight flank death (it can move and fire).

eyescrossed
08-10-2009, 02:08
Craters will work. Difficult terrain, and skinks may even be able to squeeze soft cover out of it. My store has some craters turned into fens by pouring water effect into them and adding some sticks and shrubs... As a water effect, it automatically gives soft cover to skinks/sallies/kroxigor, and can be argued to be difficult or impassable terrain depending...
Ehh... Using Moonscape seems a little... Bleh.




Also, Lizardman shooting *is* spectacular. Salamander drops a template at S3 -3sv and causes instant panic test if you suffer a casualty. Brilliant for dropping warriors.
Razordons have an output of up to 60 shots when making a stand and shoot, and that ignores most shooting modifiers.
Skinks just rapid fire poison everywhere... I took 3 wounds off a Hydra in a game the other day- T5 4+sv 4+ regen vs 10 skinks with Blowpipes over 2 turns. Enough wounding hits and you will fail some armour saves.
Then the ancient steg pours out massed poison, and the normal steg fires a bolt thrower for monster clearing and knight flank death (it can move and fire).
I wouldn't say it's spectacular. I'd say Dwarf shooting is spectacular.

Also, Salamanders won't be a problem if they get engaged by Knights (most of the time only a single Knight gets hit by the template anyway), and if my Chosen have a 4+ Ward save, or T5...
Razordons aren't scary either. There's a 1/3 chance it'll Misfire when it's charged, and even 20 Str4 shots are pathetic against Knights, or even Warriors.
Skinks with their poison, they really don't kill any WoC.
Stegs? Well tbh the only issue I have is the Giant Bow.

Axis
08-10-2009, 05:01
I wouldn't say it's spectacular. I'd say Dwarf shooting is spectacular.

Also, Salamanders won't be a problem if they get engaged by Knights (most of the time only a single Knight gets hit by the template anyway), and if my Chosen have a 4+ Ward save, or T5...
Razordons aren't scary either. There's a 1/3 chance it'll Misfire when it's charged, and even 20 Str4 shots are pathetic against Knights, or even Warriors.
Skinks with their poison, they really don't kill any WoC.
Stegs? Well tbh the only issue I have is the Giant Bow.

I think after you have played a bit longer against lizards you won't agree with most of this stuff. Lizardmen shooting is far more irritating than dwarf. With dwarfs they are sitting tight. Lizards are more mobile, it is very hard to touch them (except magic and he can dispel etc). Armour helps.. but even with a 1+ save if they get enough wounds on you (from poisoned skinks usually) you will fail some.

Even if 3 razordons are charged.. with a 1/3 chance of a misfire. On average that works out to 2 razordons firing.. which means roughyl 20 or more shots..

You keep going on about your chosen. You do realise they are a 750 point unit that has M4? Just irritate them with skirmishers/fast cav (though lizards dont get these)... sure they can always march.. but a failed charge leaves them moving 4.... they take 3 turns to cross the board, if you just shuffle back an inch they dont see combat till turn 4. Thats 4 turns of shooting at them! Even with T5 or +1 to Armour save they will die eventually.. if you get the 4+ ward (which even with favour isn't hugely likely) then they will be quite tough to shift.. but not impossible.

Two options really, either kill the 12 chosen (via shooting, magic or impact hits of just with saurus/temple guard...) or kill sigvlad. He has 7S5 attacks.. so if you can survive that he is just (i say just lol) a t4 model with 1+ armour and regen. (against other armies this is asking for a killing blow). its not impossible to do, could bane head+ lvl 1 metal spell. Or you could send an oldblood.


p.s. i have no idea why he wastes the BSB by putting it on a scar vet when you can just give it to the slaan which is far harder to kill.

eyescrossed
08-10-2009, 05:13
I think after you have played a bit longer against lizards you won't agree with most of this stuff. Lizardmen shooting is far more irritating than dwarf. With dwarfs they are sitting tight. Lizards are more mobile, it is very hard to touch them (except magic and he can dispel etc). Armour helps.. but even with a 1+ save if they get enough wounds on you (from poisoned skinks usually) you will fail some.

Even if 3 razordons are charged.. with a 1/3 chance of a misfire. On average that works out to 2 razordons firing.. which means roughyl 20 or more shots..

You keep going on about your chosen. You do realise they are a 750 point unit that has M4? Just irritate them with skirmishers/fast cav (though lizards dont get these)... sure they can always march.. but a failed charge leaves them moving 4.... they take 3 turns to cross the board, if you just shuffle back an inch they dont see combat till turn 4. Thats 4 turns of shooting at them! Even with T5 or +1 to Armour save they will die eventually.. if you get the 4+ ward (which even with favour isn't hugely likely) then they will be quite tough to shift.. but not impossible.

Two options really, either kill the 12 chosen (via shooting, magic or impact hits of just with saurus/temple guard...) or kill sigvlad. He has 7S5 attacks.. so if you can survive that he is just (i say just lol) a t4 model with 1+ armour and regen. (against other armies this is asking for a killing blow). its not impossible to do, could bane head+ lvl 1 metal spell. Or you could send an oldblood.


p.s. i have no idea why he wastes the BSB by putting it on a scar vet when you can just give it to the slaan which is far harder to kill.

Which is how I've come to the conclusion that my list doesn't need toning down...

Also, no clue with the Scar Vet.

Paraelix
08-10-2009, 05:23
I wouldn't say it's spectacular. I'd say Dwarf shooting is spectacular.

Also, Salamanders won't be a problem if they get engaged by Knights (most of the time only a single Knight gets hit by the template anyway), and if my Chosen have a 4+ Ward save, or T5...
Razordons aren't scary either. There's a 1/3 chance it'll Misfire when it's charged, and even 20 Str4 shots are pathetic against Knights, or even Warriors.
Skinks with their poison, they really don't kill any WoC.
Stegs? Well tbh the only issue I have is the Giant Bow.

What Lizards can do with 70pts of skinks is alot diff to what Dwarfs can do with the same points... In fact, they probably can't even get a legal unit. Similarly 75pts of "machine" gets me a 6/12" skirmish move, flamer-cannon-type fear causer with 3 wounds... Not to be underrated. Sallies used appropriately will also be in terrain features, so being charged by knights is a simble "flee" reaction and then your knights are bogged for 3 turns or so. If your chosen have 4+ ward or T5... Thats a pretty big if. And toughness 6 just makes it like poison all over... And the wounds caused are still not likely to be saved :)

Razors aren't to be doubted either. I used to run Leadbelchers (similar concept) against my mates Chaos knights, and I average 6-8 shots with each guy in a 3 man unit. His units of 5 knights often turned to paste.

What you *do* have going for you is the Mark of Nurgle on some of your troops. The additional -1 for skinks and razors sucks. BUT as I'd be sending Sallies after the nurglies anyway, I don't much care.

Jericho
08-10-2009, 06:03
Sigvald is definitely begging for Rule of Burning Iron+Bane Head. It would be very sad to see him get pulped by turn 2 this way, but it could very easily happen.

The general consensus from the Tactica WOC thread is that you can really go overboard with pure-cavalry lists, pure magic lists, or lists that really get ugly by combining Warshrines, Chosen and/or characters like Valkya to further increase your chances of S5/T5/4+ Ward/Stubborn units all over the place. Overloading in one of these three ways is a good way to **** off your opponents and make for a boring game... the more interesting army lists are the ones that mix it up a little bit and avoid the combos which can win on autopilot.

If everyone played with that attitude we wouldn't have any of these threads, but WOC really are one of those armies where a certain build or two stands head and shoulders over the alternatives (Dark Elves are another famous army for this). On the other hand I don't think it's too hard to avoid being "that guy" with the super-lame Chaos army... most of the stuff in the army book is reasonably balanced.

The Red Scourge
08-10-2009, 06:46
You could also go without dispel scrolls. Chaos got great options for their magicians, and with a 2+ save and T4, the threat of miscasts aren't that great :)

Paraelix
08-10-2009, 07:15
You could also go without dispel scrolls. Chaos got great options for their magicians, and with a 2+ save and T4, the threat of miscasts aren't that great :)

His wizards currently possess a 4+ sv and a 6+ ward.

eyescrossed
08-10-2009, 11:26
4+ save. I'm not fielding mounted.

Anyway, sorry, I can't reply to everything right now, but I will eventually.

EDIT: Wow, 4 hour ninja.

kabum
13-10-2009, 15:59
I will for sure have a Slanesh giant...

I will avoid the Choosen unit wich is too expensive... unless you want to make it bigger and expensiver and give a buckup of 2 shrine..... which will be a bad choice hre in my opinion.

4 units of chaos armored boys in groups of 5 is a need ( well is not the nicest for you friend) but will help you.

Keep in mind that you need to move and do it quickly as possible and some armor is preferable.

eyescrossed
14-10-2009, 08:42
I will for sure have a Slanesh giant...

I will avoid the Choosen unit wich is too expensive... unless you want to make it bigger and expensiver and give a buckup of 2 shrine..... which will be a bad choice hre in my opinion.

4 units of chaos armored boys in groups of 5 is a need ( well is not the nicest for you friend) but will help you.

Keep in mind that you need to move and do it quickly as possible and some armor is preferable.

Ehm... I didn't want to make my list more powerful you know.

The Red Scourge
14-10-2009, 09:02
His wizards currently possess a 4+ sv and a 6+ ward.

And they shouldn't be. No character should be without his trusty mount - especially not a chaos sorcerer. It adds flexibility in how to deploy them, mobility and not to forgot an improved armor save.

eyescrossed
15-10-2009, 07:30
And they shouldn't be. No character should be without his trusty mount - especially not a chaos sorcerer. It adds flexibility in how to deploy them, mobility and not to forgot an improved armor save.

But I don't want them to be better.

Killboss
15-10-2009, 22:46
Ehh... Using Moonscape seems a little... Bleh.


Exactly.


Nope. Ruins, craters, a wrecked space ship, etc.


And my broken trees that someone (seriously, dunno who) stepped on... and killed...

They may be salvageable though....


p.s. i have no idea why he wastes the BSB by putting it on a scar vet when you can just give it to the slaan which is far harder to kill.

I "wasted" the standard on him because the Slann had no points for the fear causing banner.


And they shouldn't be. No character should be without his trusty mount

Unless you want to do a SoS flying killer... of death.

eyescrossed
16-10-2009, 02:04
I "wasted" the standard on him because the Slann had no points for the fear causing banner.
Which really didn't have any effect.
I have to say, you probably could've saved 50 points by giving it to the Slann and mounting your Scar Vet on a Cold One. Your list though.

BUT, probably the only reason it didn't work was because it was charged by Slaaneshi Chosen, who are immune to it anyway.

Really though, next time we play Fantasy we've gotta do it on the whole table.





Unless you want to do a SoS flying killer... of death.
Yeah. Hehe...

Killboss
18-10-2009, 22:58
BUT, probably the only reason it didn't work was because it was charged by Slaaneshi Chosen, who are immune to it anyway.


Actually, it was first a flank charge from Khorne knights.



Really though, next time we play Fantasy we've gotta do it on the whole table.


And with some terrain :D
Which i'll be making... soon....ish

eyescrossed
20-10-2009, 10:03
Actually, it was first a flank charge from Khorne knights.
Who are also immune, unfortunately :D





And with some terrain :D
Which i'll be making... soon....ish
That's good.

Killboss
21-10-2009, 11:17
That's good.

And i'm even gunna make 36" of round plant life! For my 'Nids! =D

We could even use some of that... but it'll be a while.