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Lanparth
07-10-2009, 09:42
Me and my friends were talking about Dark Eldar the other day, after we'd finished a session of Dark Heresy, just about what direction they may go in and ect ect. I felt I should share how we brainstormed about this, just to see what others think.

The current Dark Eldar seem to not reflect their own fluff very well, now I know that sounds weird but the basic Dark Eldar warrior is something that should be feared.

These are creatures that fight, and kill their entire lives in order to survive, they are not guardians. In my opinion they should be more akin to Firewarriors in some ways. Make Dark Eldar a strong troops force, though fragile as well. Personally? I'd like to see their Splinter Rifles go to S4, and I'd personally like seeing a 4+ save, to make them more like Aspect Warriors.

Make the Dark Eldar a force of real elites, not a heavy boots army. Dark Eldar as it stands now can spam Warriors like Guardians, that really shouldn't be the case, they should be even more limited number than Eldar. Personally, I'd like to see them be like the Grey Knights of Eldar, compared to Space Marines that is. High powered, lower numbered, costly loses if you take them, but if you get in with your numbers? Causing vicious damage.

Dark Eldar Warriors in my own humble opinion, should look like this-

WS:4
BS:4
S:3
T:3
I:4
A:1
LD: 8?
Sv: 4+

Equipment: Armor (4+), Splinter Rifle (S4, Rapid Fire, AP5), Splinter Pistol, Close Combat Weapon.

Fleet of Foot.

High points per model, but you can really have a force that would make more sense. Strong, fierce, well equiped warriors of thousands of years of raids, there to take their prey in the name of Commorragh.

I'd like to see similar points for other units. In fact I'd go as far to say I wouldn't mind Dark Eldar being a low model count army, like Space Marines even. I doubt we'd see this, but who thinks it'd be cool?

LordLucan
07-10-2009, 10:01
Splinter weapons are not supposed to be effective at killing things. They are supposed to cause agony in their foes, but not to kill them. That's why they're weak. If you came up with a 'poisoned ammo' rule for them, that'd be cool.

Also, giving them 4+ armour defeats the style of play DE are great at: Fast and lethal, but fragile. Their armour is only mesh armour (same as the guardian models).

Also, nowhere in the fluff does it say DE are even rarer than Craftworlders. In fact, in most depictions in the fluff, there seems to be absolutely loads of them. If there wasn't, there would be no DE anymore. They'd have all tortured and backstabbed each other to death.

The DE are mentioned as 'infesting' the webway. This makes me think of them being numerous. Also, Commorragh seems bloody huge to me!

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 10:02
True dark Eldar are great warriors after spending hundreds of years fighting their own kind in the dark city.
But dont be fooled, Dark Eldar are not tough.
The everyday warrior is basically an Eldar Guardian, A citizen.
They fight for survival and use deceptive tactics to gain any advantages in life from bribing, assassination and cold blooded murder.

In truth Dark Eldar are cowards, they prey on peoples fears by fighting in darkness and striking from the shadows.
They then take back weaker and defenceless beings to do what they wish and break them mentally and physically to feel powerful.
They have to be cowards though because if they die they go to Slaanesh when they expire.

To be so effective in these swift raids and so as not to restrict their natural Eldar agility they are forced to wear non restrictive and thin armour thus the need for the sneaky tactics.

Warriors should not have high toughness, they should be fast with a great BS and WS.

Cuchulain84
07-10-2009, 10:10
I'd like to see their fluff expanded on. Especially the everyday warriors, i'd like to know what it's like to live in Commoragh. They can't all be pure evil because they wouldn't be able to live in a society. I like the idea of them being more sinister than just pure evil.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 10:17
CORRECT.
They need a huge new amount of fluff and more insight into how life in the dark city functions.
Dark Eldar are hedonistic and do what they feel like it when they feel like it which makes it hard to believe they can have a functioning society.

Dark Eldar seem more like animals then then the "animals' they enslave.
They have a pack leader who gets all the females "or males depending on his fancy" and rules over all the other males.

His usually the biggest Eldar and he can only lose his right to lead through being challenged by a lesser male or killed.

Shinzui
07-10-2009, 10:19
5+ armour background wise is pretty good. 40k doesn't accurately represent it because of the limitations of a D6 system.

I definitely don't support a 4+ armor save. It's not not inline with the Eldar and goes behind the theme of being fragile.

Neither do I support the idea that Dark eldar should play the low numbers game. Dark Eldar unlike craftworld aren't the conspiracy nuts but the rest of the entire race that actually survived the fall. Even if you account that 99.9% of the race was destroyed the extent of the Eldar empire shows that you could easily say that Dark eldar number in the billions if not hundreds of billions

This also makes sense into the fact of how they live. Backstabbing and assassinating each other on a regular basis.

I don't support S4 but I would go for poisoned weapon as that what their weapon is rather than have powerful stopping power.

LordLucan
07-10-2009, 10:19
They are all pure evil. However, the Kabals protect their minions from being murdered outside their spires. The streets of Commorragh are utterly lethal. Hellions randomly murder people during their high speed races, and Mandrakes and other such monsters haunt the night, picking off the weak and alone.

Most DE are kabalites. It is common for the lower level DE to murder each other or attempt to backstab each other. However, the Kabal leaders generally do not murder each other. Political 'assassination' is much more common.

Shield of Freedom
07-10-2009, 10:20
The need for expanded fluff is understandable. The current codex is the ONLY codex written for them. In second edition, there was no such thing as the Dark Eldar. They existed as Eldar Pirates in the Eldar codex and you could mix them into your Eldar army along side Harlequins, Exodites, and what we call today "Craftworld Eldar."

As for the combat capability of Dark Eldar warriors, especially considering them being better than Guardians... uh hello?

They're WS 4 and BS 4. That's already "better" than a Guardian! What do you want?

They're also I 5 making them FASTER than a Guardian and a Marine!

Yet they are the SAME points as a Guardian. Most Eldar players agree as well, that we would rather have Guardians with a 24" range rapid fire weapon at Strenght 3 than the Shuriken Catapult. As fluffy as the Catapult is, it feels like the two Eldar armies got their main armament backwards.

Some people argue that the Catapult isn't supposed to be long range... in second edition it had the same range as a boltgun.

Nah, Warriors need new models and nothing else. Their points value and statline are still right. It's the OTHER things in the army that need work rules wise. Move the Reaver Jetbikes to TROOPS and remove the distinction between Raider Squads and Warrior squads. Move Wyches to TROOPS and you've got a strong TROOPS selection in the army.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 10:27
5+ armour background wise is pretty good. 40k doesn't accurately represent it because of the limitations of a D6 system.


Neither do I support the idea that Dark eldar should play the low numbers game. Dark Eldar unlike craftworld aren't the conspiracy nuts but the rest of the entire race that actually survived the fall. Even if you account that 99.9% of the race was destroyed the extent of the Eldar empire shows that you could easily say that Dark eldar number in the billions if not hundreds of billions



Completely agreed.
One of the biggest differences between Dark and Craftworld Eldar is Dark Eldar have an expanding and healthy population.

The Dark City constantly expands to fit the constantly rising population and there is even talk of a second city somewhere else in the WebWay.

But this doesnt mean I think Dark Eldar should go horde, Id quite like there armyt sizes to be a little larger to compensate for their weakness but not IG sized or anything like that.

LordLucan
07-10-2009, 10:29
The current sizes of DE armies seems fine to me...

Cuchulain84
07-10-2009, 10:36
Strange question, I know but; Does it say anywhere how Dark Eldar procreate? We know that their society has a level of gender equality seeing as half of the army is made up of females.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 10:38
Sorry I must either be stupid or uneducated "what does procreate" mean.:o

Shield of Freedom
07-10-2009, 10:39
Strange question, I know but; Does it say anywhere how Dark Eldar procreate? We know that their society has a level of gender equality seeing as half of the army is made up of females.

I would imagine it's something like how people "hook up" at college parties.

Each party doing it for their own mutual benefit. Remember, the Eldar were incredibly decadent by the time of the fall. There are probably a million orgies going on at any given time in that city!


Sorry I must either be stupid or uneducated "what does procreate" mean.:o
It means to "reproduce" or "make babies" if you will.

Shinzui
07-10-2009, 10:42
Strange question, I know but; Does it say anywhere how Dark Eldar procreate? We know that their society has a level of gender equality seeing as half of the army is made up of females.

Because Eldar aren't immortal, Both Dark Eldar and Craftworld eldar by the end of M41 would have to be decedents. Thats why the Harlequins do their story dance to tell the birth of slaanesh to both the Eldar and Dark Eldar

Gaargod
07-10-2009, 10:47
Let's be honest now, warriors are there to claim objecties carry dark lances, and die. That's about it. They do that perfectly now (indeed, for what it gives, a raider squad is remarkably cheap).

Lanparth
07-10-2009, 10:50
Everyone jumps all over me :P

But thats why its a discussion.

But anyway, the poison weapons idea is very interesting.

Cuchulain84
07-10-2009, 10:52
A ginat orgy sounds reasonable.

Back on topic I think they should be more like Vampires on the evil scale. Intellegent, articulate, cultured but essentially incapable of mercy, sympathy or love (in any real sense)

Perhaps they use slaves to run and build their cities and raise their children, whilst they have extravagant parties filled with all kinds of depravity.
Mandrakes and Hellions would obviously be seen as mad, and unpredictable and left to themselves in the darker corners of the city.
Haemonculi would be seen as high society members, people to be respected and admired. Perhaps they would have victorian-esque theatre displays of disection and torture methods under the guise of knowledge and learning.
Wyches could be the celebrities of the society, famed with their prowess in the arena.

Shinzui
07-10-2009, 11:02
Let's be honest now, warriors are there to claim objecties carry dark lances, and die. That's about it. They do that perfectly now (indeed, for what it gives, a raider squad is remarkably cheap).

I personally think its overpriced for that job. A warrior squads shooting should be quite dangerous. Poisoned weapons as I said above would be a good and fair boost to the squads effectiveness without making it high strength.

I'd also like to see the Dark Eldar play more into there theme which is taking prisoners rather than just trying to wipe the opponent out. I could see something like

Slave Nets upgrade of warriors - In the shooting phase if embarked in a Raider pick a infantry, Jump infantry, Bike or Beast unit the raider has moved over in the movement phase. The enemy must pass a strength test per model with a Slave Net, if failed a model from the unit is removed from play. Independent characters cannot be targeted. In combat the nets reduce any model in base contact in the unit by 1 (to a min of 1)

Things that affect leadership would be a good thing as well. Probably not as overpowered as the planetstrike strategem.

Souleater
07-10-2009, 11:13
The everyday warrior is basically an Eldar Guardian, A citizen.
They fight for survival and use deceptive tactics to gain any advantages in life from bribing, assassination and cold blooded murder.

A rather contradictory statement IMHO.

I don't think the poster meant tough in terms of Toughness but 'tough in the sense of killing stuff'.

I'd prefer Dark Eldar to become a little less 'hordey' and a bit more 'elite' like their Craftworld Cousins.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 11:13
I'd also like to see the Dark Eldar play more into there theme which is taking prisoners rather than just trying to wipe the opponent out. I could see something like

Slave Nets upgrade of warriors - In the shooting phase if embarked in a Raider pick a infantry, Jump infantry, Bike or Beast unit the raider has moved over in the movement phase. The enemy must pass a strength test per model with a Slave Net, if failed a model from the unit is removed from play. Independent characters cannot be targeted. In combat the nets reduce any model in base contact in the unit by 1 (to a min of 1)
.

I think DE already have a rule about slaving, but that could just be a mission page.
Anywho I think a comment I posted in another thread makes sense.
Make a Slaver Vehicle which when it kills things simulates slaving them and by counting the amount of models killed by the Slaver Vehicle gives the army advantages like Epidemus and Nurgles warriors.

Say

3 models = Advantage
6 models= better Advantage
10 models- Greater Advantage
13 models= How can you lose.

These vehicles would be terrifying to enemy generals and probably great distractions plus in the time it would take for the vehicle to kill that many minis, especially against the more elite armies the Dark Eldar may have lost heaps of models but are still in the running.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 11:21
A rather contradictory statement IMHO.
.

Not really.
Guardians and Warriors are both average Eldar citizens, just in different circumstances.

Craftworld Eldar Guardians: Living aboard beutiful Craftworlds as laborers, artisans and basically your average joe.

Dark Eldar Warriors: Living in the mean streets of Commaragh as Thugs, murderers and basically your average homicidal joe.

There in the same situation, just different circumstances.

Lanparth
07-10-2009, 11:22
Average Homicidal Joe would be a lot more dangerous than average laborer joe.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 11:23
Average Homicidal Joe would be a lot more dangerous than average laborer joe.

Of course:)
But they are still in the same social status, the Average Citizens.

LordLucan
07-10-2009, 11:29
Because Eldar aren't immortal, Both Dark Eldar and Craftworld eldar by the end of M41 would have to be decedents. Thats why the Harlequins do their story dance to tell the birth of slaanesh to both the Eldar and Dark Eldar

Actually not true really (at least not for DE). Vect was around during the fall, and fled into the webway with the other eldar children that escaped from the pleasure cults. Also, no DE actually has to die. They can devour souls in order to keep themselves alive indefinitely.

Lanparth
07-10-2009, 11:31
Problem, collecting Souls is hazardous. :P

Shinzui
07-10-2009, 11:31
We don't know for a fact that Vect was actually there. He claimed so but then again would you trust a Dark Eldar?

I thought the devour soul slowed down the soul leeching of slaanesh. I've never seen any fluff which gives them youth

Lanparth
07-10-2009, 11:33
It actually is supposed to restore their youth as well Shinzui. The thing is, the older the Eldar, the more souls he requires. Vect himself must need to be feasting at almost all times given his age, even by conservative estimates.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 11:33
Actually not true really (at least not for DE). Vect was around during the fall, and fled into the webway with the other eldar children that escaped from the pleasure cults. Also, no DE actually has to die. They can devour souls in order to keep themselves alive indefinitely.

This is Correct.
But doesnt mean Dark Eldar are immortal.
If you locked one in a room without even a taste of a soul for enough time he probably would die.

Actually, do souls actually keep Dark Eldar alive or just rejuvenate them and make them youthful like the Witch Elves and the Blood Cauldron from Fantasy.
I mean they look young, but they are still tens of thousands of years old.

Shinzui
07-10-2009, 11:35
It actually is supposed to restore their youth as well Shinzui. The thing is, the older the Eldar, the more souls he requires. Vect himself must need to be feasting at almost all times given his age, even by conservative estimates.

Well atleast they aren't the typical 'take over the galaxy' race like everyone else.

Lanparth
07-10-2009, 11:37
I do wish they had a bit more depth to them than piracy. I mean, piracy and raiding should be the main thing about them, and self-preservation, but I wish the Dark Eldar had a further agenda as well, certainly not galactic conquest, by no means, but I do wish they had a bit more to them.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 11:49
I do wish they had a bit more depth to them than piracy. I mean, piracy and raiding should be the main thing about them, and self-preservation, but I wish the Dark Eldar had a further agenda as well, certainly not galactic conquest, by no means, but I do wish they had a bit more to them.


Thats the only problem with the Dark Eldar:(

1.They cant have a bigger agenda at how the current fluff is.

2.They are hedonists who really dont care about anything outside the dark city so conquest and domination is out of the picture.

3.They need slaves to keep their economoy flowing so galactic eradication is out.

4.They choose not worship gods but worship themselves so they dont want to convert the universe.

5.They dont like their craftworld kin but they dont seem to be that offended that they exist so they dont seem to want to eradicate the good Eldar.

Even in the new codex the only big news about Dark Eldar is that their raids and piracy have gone up, which isnt that impressive.

LordLucan
07-10-2009, 11:54
This is Correct.
But doesnt mean Dark Eldar are immortal.

Did I say they were immortal? I said they don't 'have' to die, and that not every DE has to be a decendant of the original DE.


If you locked one in a room without even a taste of a soul for enough time he probably would die.

Yes he would, because Slannesh is constantly leeching their souls at all times anyway.


Actually, do souls actually keep Dark Eldar alive or just rejuvenate them and make them youthful like the Witch Elves and the Blood Cauldron from Fantasy.
I mean they look young, but they are still tens of thousands of years old.

The story in the back of the DE codex has a Lord looking really old and decrepit at the start of the story. When he sucks in the souls of those slain while trying to kill him, he becomes noticably more youthful and vibrant iirc.

The oldest DE constantly need souls to stave off their own deaths. That's one of the reasons the DE take so many slaves. Many of them are simply drained of their souls and fed to their Lords.

Vect taxes every other kabal that he has taken over, demanding massive amounts of slaves and souls from them.

LordLucan
07-10-2009, 11:59
1.They cant have a bigger agenda at how the current fluff is.

Does it matter? I don't want them to be yet another 'take over the galaxy and destroy everyone else' faction. The DE have a unique motivation compared with the others imo.

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 12:06
Does it matter? I don't want them to be yet another 'take over the galaxy and destroy everyone else' faction. The DE have a unique motivation compared with the others imo.


Thats right and its one of the main reasons i love them, I say its sad because it could be a way to get more Dark Eldar fans.
I like how they go for what they want and not having an objective which is the same for every general.

Space Marines: For the Emperor
Chaos: For Chaos
Daemons: For the Gods
Tyranids: Gobble, munch, crunch
Tau: Lets be friends, fight for the Greater Goof.
Eldar: Do what the Farseer said.
Orks; WAAAGH! WEZE GUNNA STOMP IT
Necrons: Bzzzz Kill Bzzzzz.

Dark Eldar fight for themselves and their own ambitions.

Shinzui
07-10-2009, 12:09
Does it matter? I don't want them to be yet another 'take over the galaxy and destroy everyone else' faction. The DE have a unique motivation compared with the others imo.

Definitely, especially if Matt Ward gets his hands on the codex. Turn them into one dimensional villians to be defeated by marines.

Imagine.

[Drazhar] What are we going to do tonight Vect?
[Asdrubael Vect] Same thing we do every night Drazhar, try to take over the galaxy!

Drazhar and the Vect, Drazhar and the Vect, one is a genius and both are insane...

Souleater
07-10-2009, 12:13
They're in the same situation, just different circumstances.

If the circumstances are different then it isn't the same situation. :rolleyes:

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 12:50
If the circumstances are different then it isn't the same situation. :rolleyes:

Not true.

Though both look different they serve the same role in Eldar society.

They are the average citizens forced into combat by their higher ups.
Though Eldar Guardians are conscripted Dark Eldar are hardly different since they have to fight for their Archon to remain in the Kabal which is kinda like volantary conscription.

I could go on but its late, my point is though surroundings and environment which are circumstances can be different the individuals situation can be the same.

No need to roll eyebrows Soul Eater:)

Tokugawa100
07-10-2009, 12:52
Did I say they were immortal? I said they don't 'have' to die, and that not every DE has to be a decendant of the original DE.



Yes he would, because Slannesh is constantly leeching their souls at all times anyway.



The story in the back of the DE codex has a Lord looking really old and decrepit at the start of the story. When he sucks in the souls of those slain while trying to kill him, he becomes noticably more youthful and vibrant iirc.

The oldest DE constantly need souls to stave off their own deaths. That's one of the reasons the DE take so many slaves. Many of them are simply drained of their souls and fed to their Lords.

Vect taxes every other kabal that he has taken over, demanding massive amounts of slaves and souls from them.



I apoligise LordLucan, for jumping to the conclusion you said they are immortal.
It was wrong of me to assume.
And thankyou for answering my question:)

Darkmatyr
07-10-2009, 14:24
I do like the poisoned weapon idea.
More fluff would be awesome in the new codex, of all the fluff, dark eldar and tyranids have interested me the most.

LordLucan
07-10-2009, 15:13
I apoligise LordLucan, for jumping to the conclusion you said they are immortal.
It was wrong of me to assume.
And thankyou for answering my question:)

No probs. Sorry if I seemed stand-offish or anything. Not my intent.

Xisor
07-10-2009, 17:15
I rather like the 'iconic' features discussed early in the thread. Whilst I concur with LordLucan on the idea that the Dark Eldar as a species are 'burgeoning', that there could be utterly billions of DE festering away in the Webway (and beyond).

I see no reason they'd be small populations.

That said, I do like the idea of the DE being a small force, being low on numbers and high on potency.

More importantly, I think we need to see characterisation and motivation. Flesh out the depths and desires to which the DE sink (and rise) merely in pursuit of a single goal. They're hedonistic, their pleasure seekers, but they're capricious and devious and ambitious and single minded. Yet they're also possessed of some of the most potent minds in the galaxy, the most skilled fighters etc.

They're...unbound. So much so that they're not even consigned to Chaos...they shaped Chaos...but still abandoned their creation and went off to pursue something else. They're fleeting yet relentless, capricious and resolute.

Focusing on the individual, the variance and the awful motivations they feel. That's insidious. As long as the army is fast, fragile and hard hitting; I'm sure it'll be fine. Whether that's via initiative 4 and 4+ armour, or I5 and 5+ armour or whatnot, I think it's difficult to deny that the way the DE functions just now is 'about right' in terms of the bare bones. Raider squads being a core component, some more options about the likes of Incubi, Haemonculi and Wyches, but even fleshing out the subsubcultures like the Scourges and the more 'independent' Warriors.

Flesh out DE society, burgeon the fluff and everythign. Give us a look at their economics and ecology! But beyond that, an army vaguely similar to what we have is about right. Lots more ideas and cool bits added, hooray, but for the time being it's alrighty!

Hell, I might even go and dig out my Dark Eldar for a spot of gaming and repainting...

Raibaru
07-10-2009, 17:53
It's a safe bet that when Eldar talk of their population they aren't only speaking of the craftworld Eldar, but rather all Eldar be them Dark Eldar, Exodite, Feral, etc. The only distinction they make is between Eldar and those fallen to Chaos. So for all intents and purposes, Dark Eldar, while easily more numerous then Craftworld Eldar, are still part of a dying race.

Now as for the list, there's really nothing wrong with the Dark Eldar Warrior. They are near perfect how they are. The only thing I'd change is to give them the rule Kroot have with their weapons. I don't recall what it is off hand since I haven't played in ages, but it was something like +1S or +1A on the charge.

Beyond that, the army is a mess and needs a lot of work which probably explains why it has taken 15 years to get a reasonably confirmed codex release.

What makes the army a "failure" now (because it's still quite competetive) is the lack of options. every army list is identical even if you compare someone who is the sole dark eldar player in his state to someone who gets pages upon pages of critiques on their lists online.

The things I want most of all is a way to make Incubi troops, to see an enormous influx of new fiction, and for things like Scourges, Hellions, and Mandrakes to have a larger role in our lists.

Lanparth
07-10-2009, 18:22
I wouldn't mind it if the fluff stated that as the Eldar sun sets with population, the Dark Eldar is on the rise. The thing is this is unsustainable, as the more Dark Eldar there are, the more souls they require, the more they need to feast to sustain their city and lives.

I think that could be an interesting point.

ReveredChaplainDrake
07-10-2009, 19:23
The only thing I'd change is to give them the rule Kroot have with their weapons. I don't recall what it is off hand since I haven't played in ages, but it was something like +1S or +1A on the charge.
All Kroot Rifles do is count as 2x CCWs. (And, well... they can shoot, for what it's worth.) I would hope that by the time the Dark Eldar are released, they've come up with something a bit more clever than "Gun, Pistol, CCW" for a model loadout.

CrownAxe
07-10-2009, 19:34
All Kroot Rifles do is count as 2x CCWs. (And, well... they can shoot, for what it's worth.) I would hope that by the time the Dark Eldar are released, they've come up with something a bit more clever than "Gun, Pistol, CCW" for a model loadout.
Hopefully "Gun, Pistol, Codpiece"

IcedAnimals
07-10-2009, 19:57
I am going to have to disagree that "all" eldar are part of the dying race bit.

Dark eldar seem to be doing just fine. Exodites seem to be doing pretty well as well. I know that craftworld eldar will try to protect the other two from being exterminated so that could be what they mean.

They know they are dieing out but consider themselves the protectors of all eldar.

As for the base stats for a dark eldar.
BS:4
WS:4
S:3
T:3
I:5
W:1
A:1
LD:8
Save :5+

Str 3 splinter rifles, poison 6+ rapid fire 24 inch. Fleet of foot.

Arakanis
07-10-2009, 20:02
I personally think that Guardians should have 4+ armour and Shuricats should be 18"
But then, I'm an Eldar fanboy.
That also happens to make me a Dark Eldar fanboy too

So I'm with you on the Warriors. Though, personally, I'd give them those stats, change the Splinter rifle to Strength 3 Ap 4 Rapid fire 24" to represent how they tear through armour and flesh but maim and incapacitate rather than just kill outright. Make it an option take poisoned rounds that wound on a 5+ or something. It would make them effective even against the biggest enemies.
Also give them a pair of CCWs neurodisruption grenades (assault), that sort of thing.

the1stpip
07-10-2009, 20:12
No, the stats for Warriors are perfectly fine, they are undercosted though, as is the Dark Lance, which is what makes them even more effective.

The only thing that is underpowered is the Splinter Rifle, and I like the idea of the poisoned idea.

jsullivanlaw
07-10-2009, 20:41
If you want them to be more elite, why are you making their stats worse? Dark eldar definitely should have initiative 5, like they do now. Not 4. And rapid fire really does not fit with the raider strategy, it is more a sit and shoot weapon. Dark Eldar should have assault weapons.

LordLucan
07-10-2009, 20:46
.

So I'm with you on the Warriors. Though, personally, I'd give them those stats, change the Splinter rifle to Strength 3 Ap 4 Rapid fire 24" to represent how they tear through armour and flesh but maim and incapacitate rather than just kill outright. Make it an option take poisoned rounds that wound on a 5+ or something. It would make them effective even against the biggest enemies.

YES. This I can get behind! :D

Still not sold on the increase in armour save. DE should be very fast, very sharp, but also fragile. Like a poison-tipped rapier! ;)


Also give them a pair of CCWs neurodisruption grenades (assault), that sort of thing.

Even more awesome!



Xisor: So you want very numerous DE, who are also small and elite forces? I apologise if i'm misreading your argument, but I'm a little confused. I thought you had that 'hideously horrific artificial womb' theory for the DE?

Sorros
07-10-2009, 20:51
Warriors are fine, they're just far too undercosted as the1stpip said. Same with darklances.

Dark Eldar should be fairly elite, but Eldar even more-so, imo. I understand that Guardians are just 'peaceful' citizens who get conscripted, and warriors are just homicidal, deadly drow-ish guys, but most of these Guardians have fought quite a few times before. Also, considering that many of the Eldar, if not all, sample many paths, I would assume most of them have been warriors before. Even if they haven't, certain craftworlds like Altansar, Ulth-We, and Iyanden use Guardians quite often, so I would assume them to be much better than a crappy BS3.

Also, Guardians are an odd unit. The whole "shuriken cats at 12 inches" sort of screws up their use as being a support unit with their platforms.

Of course, I'm an Eldar player, so i may be bias.

Fobster
07-10-2009, 21:21
where does it say DE are more numerous?

Partisan Rimmo
07-10-2009, 23:26
This is an interesting thread. I think Warriors clearly need some work. They're essentially Imperial Guard veterans with worse weapon options right now.

I mean, I know the number of Dark Eldar in the galaxy has been mentioned, but these guys ARE still Eldar. They're not going to horde rush to their deaths! In fact, they're going to work very hard indeed to stay alive, so I think Dark Eldar should be a medium to low model count army for this reason. The death of an Eldar is a big deal, no matter how you look at it.

OBVIOUSLY we can't raise them above S3, T3, and they're BS4 WS4 I5 already.

The splinter rifle is ************ useless. It's essentially a lasgun, that you normally don't even bother to fire with. Folks have said 'it's S3 because it's not for killing' which is true, but I feel that's a case of fluff justifying rules rather than vice versa. MAKE IT ASSAULT. That way, Dark Eldar can leap from their Raiders, hose you down with gunfire, then charge, inflicting quick, nasty casualties in a single turn, as they like to do, as opposing to almost always sacrificing one for the other. Also I think it has to be made S4. At S3, you can't really expect it to kill anything, ever, in the grand scheme of things. There's almost no tactic that can be built around them. Someone mentioned adding in a 'Poison' special rule. That'd be brilliant if anyone has a good idea.

Armour save 4+? After reading OP's plans, I'm starting to be tempted. Don't Dire Avengers have a 4+ save??? And they're a Troop choice of course. I think it's safe to say Guardians have 5+ save because they're given junk equipment. Warriors, even in there's a lot of them, are going to have quite a bit of combat experience, they're going to want to be packing slightly better gear. Not sure how this one will work in terms of gameplay mechanics though. It'd go along way to making DE armies much tougher, which is quite against the spirit of how they play. That said, Warriors may as well be naked as it is now. Which, of course, some Dark Eldar do.... Would it be crazy to give them all Stealth as well? They do like to slink in the shadows...

My (very rough) Proposal.

Dark Eldar Warrior Points:10
WS 4
BS 4
S 3
T 3
I 5
A 1
W 1
Ld 8
Sv 5+

Special Rules: Fleet, Stealth
Wargear: Splinter Rifle, Splinter Pistol and CCW

Splinter Rifle: Range:12" S:3(re-rollable) AP:5 Type: Assualt 2

Dexter099
07-10-2009, 23:57
Dark Eldar Warriors in my own humble opinion, should look like this-

WS:4
BS:4
S:3
T:3
I:4
A:1
LD: 8?
Sv: 4+

Equipment: Armor (4+), Splinter Rifle (S4, Rapid Fire, AP5), Splinter Pistol, Close Combat Weapon.

Fleet of Foot.


I prefer to keep my I5.

Plus, I like the idea of dark eldar being extra fragile but extra killy, it really separates them from the eldar, who are generally well armored and not quite as killy. The DE also have a very different way in which they work compared to the Eldar, somehting I'd like to preserve.

But yes, I find it kind of weird that I have to spam foot warrior squads to protect my portals. But really, it's somewhat fluffy, because Dark Eldar are plentiful since they keep reproducing very fast, unlike their cousins.

@Partisan: The point of the Splinter rifle being sucky is that the DE are not a sit back and shoot army. They are better at getting in with their splinter cannons, shredders, and blasters and then killing stuff.

Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 00:00
where does it say DE are more numerous?

True, Ive never read it to say their population is growing but I have read that both of the Dark cities constantly grow to support the population which I suppose could be saying that they do have a growing population.
I dont know numbers exactly but it actually surprised me that Dark Eldar would have a growing population.
Arent Craftworld Eldar infertile or something, so they cant have children only in rare cases.
I thought that was why they are a dying race.

megatrons2nd
08-10-2009, 00:19
I never heard that Craftworld Eldar were infertile. They did say the birth rate was low and that many/most of the young follow the path of the wanderer(rangers) and many of those never return. I beleive it said some find their way to Commaraugh(sp). If I remember correctly that would mean that the Dark Eldar have almost 2 populations breading for them.

Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 00:28
I never heard that Craftworld Eldar were infertile. They did say the birth rate was low and that many/most of the young follow the path of the wanderer(rangers) and many of those never return. .

Thanks for answering.:)
Maybe they are too busy to repopulate because as you said everyones either becoming pirates, witches, warrior priests, wanderers or hedonistic monsters.:)

megatrons2nd
08-10-2009, 01:35
So, how do you guys think the Mandrakes will be altered?

I'm hoping that they get to infiltrate, scout, first turn outflank or some form of special deepstrike; always count as in cover similar to how they are now; and 2D6X2 visibility when shot at like the Harlequins get with their psycher. I hope they lose the three model deployment thing.

darker4308
08-10-2009, 01:37
I think when they do dark eldar again there are going to be raiders and witch elves .... that will be about as close as it will relate to the current material.

TheEndIsHere
08-10-2009, 01:57
As a non DE player and as a hater of whiner this is my suggestion:

Keep DE as is but make their splinter rifles str 4 ap 6 assault 1 18" or maybe assault 2 12" give them offenxive grenades and 2 ccw (actually CCW and pistol). The only thing pushing me away from this is that it's close to the Eldar.

This is how I see DE.

D-End

Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 02:05
So, how do you guys think the Mandrakes will be altered?

I'm hoping that they get to infiltrate, scout, first turn outflank or some form of special deepstrike; always count as in cover similar to how they are now; and 2D6X2 visibility when shot at like the Harlequins get with their psycher. I hope they lose the three model deployment thing.

I hear that.
What you've described is perfectly Mandrakish and as a person who loves Mandrakes I hope they go with it.

megatrons2nd
08-10-2009, 02:13
Honestly, I would love to get a job with GW writing army books and codex's, but I live in the US and doubt that will ever happen. I also would like to know some of the inner working on their game/army design process/balance system. I am a curious sort and am alway looking for stuff like that(besides all my attempts have failed and I hat failing).

Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 02:18
Honestly, I would love to get a job with GW writing army books and codex's, but I live in the US and doubt that will ever happen. I also would like to know some of the inner working on their game/army design process/balance system. I am a curious sort and am alway looking for stuff like that(besides all my attempts have failed and I hat failing).

Seconded.
Especially if it was the new Dark Eldar Codex.
But I live in Australia and that doesnt seem likely.

Imperius
08-10-2009, 02:49
I like the idea of I5, WS/BS 4 warriors.

With Fleet of Foot.

How many points a piece though....

megatrons2nd
08-10-2009, 03:07
On the weapons. I see the low strength being a problem for some. In my opinion it is the right strength because their target of choice is the average human/xenos. Marines and Necrons are not their usual targets, but will take them if given the chance. Poisoned ammunition seems fair. Maybe having the splinter rifle assault 3 Strength 3 AP5 12" pinning with an option to buy poison. It would lead to overall more hits but still keep damage low and possibly put the target in the position that the Dark Eldar want them to be in(cowering on the ground).

The Dark Lance doesn't seem to fit the rapid attack nature of the Dark Eldar. Maybe making it only for the scourges/vehicles would be better.

The shredder always screamed to me blast or template. It is supposed to fill an area with a mono-filament wire and entangle it's target, so pinning almost sounds perfect for it. It should have a decent AP and maybe ignore cover.

Splinter Cannons I also wouldn't change, the extra range and strength make up for not gaining more shots than the rifle.

megatrons2nd
08-10-2009, 03:11
I like the idea of I5, WS/BS 4 warriors.

With Fleet of Foot.

How many points a piece though....

Probably less than they are now. They already have that and the trend seems to make units cheaper and give grenades and pistols for free. If they give them a close combat weapon in addition to the pistol and grenade then they might stay the same.

Edonil
08-10-2009, 03:13
My (very rough) Proposal.

Dark Eldar Warrior Points:10
WS 4
BS 4
S 3
T 3
I 5
A 1
W 1
Ld 8
Sv 5+

Special Rules: Fleet, Stealth
Wargear: Splinter Rifle, Splinter Pistol and CCW

Splinter Rifle: Range:12" S:3(re-rollable) AP:5 Type: Assualt 2

This. I like how this would work, well balanced, very fluffy.

Stag2016
08-10-2009, 03:44
What I currently don't like about the Dark Eldar is that the fluff doesn't particularly match how they are used on the table. They are supposed to be pirates and raiders, performing fast surprise assaults. Instead, a lot of lists turn up with an IG style gun line of dark lances, with just few fast moving close combat units.
It's not that the focus needs to be changed from shooting to close combat, but I think that the main troop type, and the army in general, needs to be far more mobile.

My suggestion is to keep the current warrior stat-line and points, but change the splinter rifles to R18", S3, AP5, Assault 1, and poisoned (4+). This would hopefully give players some incentive to move in on a target, and also retain some good shooting power.
Change the warrior weapon choices to 2 special or heavy weapons, so that the unit can still be tailored to close range or long range shooting, depending on a players preferences.

The army still works quite well as is, the only other major change I would call for is to allow different Troops choices depending on what your HQ choices are, ala the current SM codex.
Archon: mandrakes/scourges or some other new unit to be taken as troops
Archite: Wyches as troops (without out the current army list limitations)
Haemonculus: Grotesques as troops, or upgraded Talos.
Obviously this needs a bit of work, but you get the general idea.

The army could generally be made far more characterful of there was a higher emphases on poisoned and pinning weapons, it would give it a niche: "this is what Dark Eldar does that is different from any other army, and it does it well"

One last and somewhat more extreme idea is to give Raiders an upgrade allowing them to outflank (which is better than Deep Strike before someone mentions that), whilst a bit too powerful rules-wise, it fits in far better with the whole raiding ethos.

Other wish-listing options I've seen thrown around is to make ALL splinter weapons poisoned, make Grotesques act like plague marines with no armour save, allow Scourges to ignore cover saves, give Talos jump packs, give Reavers all the normal Wych options, Make prisoners give soul points akin to faith points, and various other less sensible options.

Corpse
08-10-2009, 03:48
Ideal weapons.

Slicing/chopping shuriken weapons. they dismember the enemy entirely, meant for absolute kills. Or at the very least, a large gaping wound when the very thin disk of metal spinning a thousand miles an hour (what is it, 89k RPM?) shatters as it half-embeds itself into the enemy and the rest of the disk rips into them causing massive bleeding everywhere, the rotation inertia continues in the direction it was sent until it hits the spot a few times bouncing around until it finds a crack to spin and catch into and presumibly explode like above into a shatter of pieces flipping in a shotgun style effect on contact.

Splinter weapons have a very different view. They focus on pain, pinning muscles in place to immobilize their targets, and to prevent bleeding from large surface wounds. Pump a few into the leg at a calculated speed (not meant to kill) and the target is presumably immobilized. Put it at a high velocity, and it will pierce deep or past the flesh. Multiple shots hitting the exact same spot will dive the initial spike deeper with each blow.

Both weapons have their purpose. One is short range, and a murder. The other is an incompasitator, with a good spark of range and precision.

Now, if you were to poison the needles, they have to be something that wont kill their target, no matter what it is. A mid-way effect, more like a sluggish, or fear inducing weapon. Pinning(follows the immobilising effects of the weapon as well as leadership) is a good way to go. They inspire fear with their rapid strikes, so that is all the more fluffy.

I suggest their weapons are pinning. I also suggest that they have the acute senses rule fighting in perpetual darkness most of their lives in a dark wayland home of commoragh.

Pinning to splinter weapons, Acute senses to all models except for maybe grotesques (grotesques can be any sort of critter, even ork IMO).

Darklances may to be set apart from brightlances. Just because they use different crystals, nothing is stopping them from making it different to attune to their enhanced range weaponry. I suggest it become 48", and AP3 as a result. A minor suggestion a simple no will suffice and be understood. (A benefit to tank hunting ravagers and a bonus to disintegrators AP2 usage)

Dark Eldar have a habbit of striking at night time. Or the oppertune time to take on a bewildered foe. I suggest, that for each HQ taken there can be one of two things taken advantage of. One is allowing raiders to deep strike. Another is a dawn style assault, forcing the first turn to be fought in darkness irregardless of the game type being played. This is a type of darkness device or a portals bright light blinding the enemy, either way works. Both ways can allow a dark eldar player to work to his initiative, without using some off rule to give him first turn.

Scourges need to become elite choices, with 2 guns per unit at 20 models per unit.

Dark eldar are more numerous because everyone is born from either rape, or a harem. I don't want to hear arguments with official fluff, they're the mafia+yakuza+syndicate of 40k. One eldar male could have half a million children and be incest while he's at it. Its just that GW cant really write that sort of stuff into their books. (Murder is ok though in books for 10 year olds I guess)

Dark eldar are of the old ways. Not just the old 40k years of human history, millions of years old. They are numerous, and the Imperial Guard of the eldar race. If regular craftworld eldar did as they please, their souls would be granted a dark eldar gift. The dark eldar ARE what the craftworlds fear becoming. Because its so damn easy! Thats what the Eldar Path is, to not be a Dark Eldar.

Not going to comment on wargear/rules beyond this really other then that they need gear that represents everything thats given to them by fluff. Such as Mandrakes granted stealth rule, Wyches given a 6+ dodge save or maybe even 5+, warp beasts need to become fast attack choices and not 0-1. Perhaps even a mutilated slave unit with neckband bombs that force them to do what the dark eldar want. (Fearless, you turn around, you die)

Sounds good I hope?

Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 03:49
What I currently don't like about the Dark Eldar is that the fluff doesn't particularly match how they are used on the table. They are supposed to be pirates and raiders, performing fast surprise assaults. Instead, a lot of lists turn up with an IG style gun line of dark lances, with just few fast moving close combat units.
.

Thats entirely based on opinion.
I personally have just about everything in my army in raiders and they work with an awesome amount of mobility and success.
Dark Eldar are the most mobile army in the game, some people might just not use them that way.
Im having trouble seeing how a weak, few in number gun line would work for Dark eldar.

Malice313
08-10-2009, 03:59
I was just reading the initial post (haven't bothered with the other 4 pages:eek:) and I was struck by the idea of Dark Eldar being "current".

Surely of all the codices available Dark Eldar are the least current!!!

Arakanis
08-10-2009, 07:29
I was just reading the initial post (haven't bothered with the other 4 pages:eek:) and I was struck by the idea of Dark Eldar being "current".

Surely of all the codices available Dark Eldar are the least current!!!

I think that what they're saying is that they aren't Necrons or Daemonhunters. They can actually win battles.

big squig
08-10-2009, 08:10
I'd like to see
WS 4
BS 4
S 3
T 3
W 1
I 5
A 1
LD 8
Sv. 4+
Fleet
Splinter rifle: Ranger 18, Strength 3, AP5, Assault 2 / Pinning.

The pinning represents that splinter rifles are more about maiming the enemy than killing them. Their about causing the victim agony for as long as possible. The pinning represents how the unit's members rolling on the ground screaming in pain can cause slowdown and psychological issues.

Malice313
08-10-2009, 08:36
Sv. 4+
Fleet
Splinter rifle: Ranger 18, Strength 3, AP5, Assault 2 / Pinning.


The pinning represents how the unit's members rolling on the ground screaming in pain can cause slowdown and psychological issues.

I'm not sure about the 4+ in terms of game play. Maybe its an added bonus for a "dodge" effect... Ooo! Maybe on the same line of thinking a 6+ invulnerable dodge save? (Just thinking aloud;))

I must say I've thought exactly the same about the splinter rifle- except for the pinning. My idea had the rifle have the "pistol" special so that an additional attack could be made for 2 weapons in CC.

I love the idea of the pinning though!!!:cool: I'm not certain that it would work well in terms of game balance. I rarely see pinning work that often. Maybe its the type of armies my friends play? At any rate; it would be more effective against some armies than others, yet the points cost for the ability would have to remain the same.

I still like the idea!:cool: Very fluff oriented!!! Unfortunately this has bugger all to do with what is written in codices these days.:(

Lanparth
08-10-2009, 09:19
Honestly guys, you keep going "4+ save seems to not be light", but look at Dire Avengers.

I honestly think a Dark Eldar warrior shouldn't be on par with a Dire Avenger in terms of things like Blade storm, or ect.

But I honestly think that your joe blow Dark Eldar Warrior SHOULD be something closer to a Dire Avenger.

The Dark Eldar LOOK more armored than Eldar to boot! Their armor looks more protective, even moreso THAN Dire Avengers.

Malice313
08-10-2009, 10:25
Honestly guys, you keep going "4+ save seems to not be light", but look at Dire Avengers.

Actually; given the proliferation of AP3 weapons in the current set of codices- one may well argue the 4+ IS light armour!!!:D

daboarder
08-10-2009, 10:37
Definitely, especially if Matt Ward gets his hands on the codex. Turn them into one dimensional villians to be defeated by marines.

Imagine.

[Drazhar] What are we going to do tonight Vect?
[Asdrubael Vect] Same thing we do every night Drazhar, try to take over the galaxy!

Drazhar and the Vect, Drazhar and the Vect, one is a genius and both are insane...

oh man i was just thinking tha exact same things. as a side note the only thing stopping myself from collecting a DE army is the models, though since i want a shoot not CC army its not as bad as the wych cults have it.

Malice313
08-10-2009, 10:45
Definitely, especially if Matt Ward gets his hands on the codex. Turn them into one dimensional villians to be defeated by marines.

If he could just learn to completely unbalance the points for insanely powerful unique characters and give them cheesy names like "Rocket Girl" and Warrior Woman"; it would be like Gav Thorpe never quit working for GW.

Souleater
08-10-2009, 12:04
Yeah, I'd like to see warriors get 4+ armour.

There really isn't any point in wearing 5+. Most weapons ignore it and those that dont...welll the model is unlikely to pass it's save anyway.

Leave 5+ for really cruddy stuff like gaunts.

I agree with one of the above posters - Warriors need to be more like DA in terms of armour and weaponary but without getting into aspect powers. Warriors have heavy/special weapons instead.

maaksel
08-10-2009, 13:47
Read the first 3 books from Salvatore regarding Drizzt. That pretty much sums up the lifestyle of DE. Kabals are their own 'nations' constantly fighting among each other.

Considering this game is now cover-save-hammer, I generally always have a 4++ on my warriors/raiders anyway! =/

Poseidal
08-10-2009, 15:33
Honestly guys, you keep going "4+ save seems to not be light", but look at Dire Avengers.

I honestly think a Dark Eldar warrior shouldn't be on par with a Dire Avenger in terms of things like Blade storm, or ect.

But I honestly think that your joe blow Dark Eldar Warrior SHOULD be something closer to a Dire Avenger.

The Dark Eldar LOOK more armored than Eldar to boot! Their armor looks more protective, even moreso THAN Dire Avengers.

Dire Avengers look more heavily armoured (look at the back armour, shoulders and plates on the current model, with the power packs).

Actually, all Aspect Warriors should be 3+; they were originally (apart from Hawks) equal or better than Marine armour (4+), with 3+ Dragons, Scorpions and Reapers, 4+ Avengers and Banshees. Only Hawks were worse. Aspect Armour was described similarly to Power Armour, using psychic response rather than power servos and neuro links.

Guardians are much more heavily armoured looking than Guardsmen, with their Flak vests yet both are 5+. This is because Guardsmen used to be 6+, and Guardians 5+ but inexplicably they didn't change Guardian Armour (one of the many idiotic decisions made in 3rd edition).

Guardian bodysuits look at least comparable with Caparace or Tau Fire Warrior armour, and should be 4+ like that.

The Dark Eldar suit looks similar, so I would agree that 4+ for them along with Guardians. Not more than Dire Avengers though.

Hokiecow
08-10-2009, 15:35
I see DE toying toying with enemy on the battlefield. Causing chaos by confusing their pray. To see Hemi's able to take control of the mind of an enemy unit for at least one turn. (Does any army have the ability to take control of an opponents unit?)

If the Spinter Rifle isn't going to wound easier, I can see 'big squig' view of adding pinning to splinter rifles.

the1stpip
08-10-2009, 16:03
Keep DE as is but make their splinter rifles str 4 ap 6 assault 1 18" or maybe assault 2 12" give them offenxive grenades and 2 ccw (actually CCW and pistol). D-End

I like this idea, it pushes the point of getting close to your opponent (in a non creepy way).

VanirX
08-10-2009, 16:27
I tend to think that Dark Eldar society would be somewhat similar to Dark Elves society and to get a good idea on what Dark Elves society is like, read the Malus Darkblade series of books from the Black Library.

gorgon
08-10-2009, 17:15
I do wish they had a bit more depth to them than piracy. I mean, piracy and raiding should be the main thing about them, and self-preservation, but I wish the Dark Eldar had a further agenda as well, certainly not galactic conquest, by no means, but I do wish they had a bit more to them.

Technically speaking, all of the armies have a similiar motivation (with the possible exception of the Orks). Namely, to ensure their own survival. The goal of galactic conquest by some groups is really just about survival in a harsh universe.

The problem with placing piracy front-and-center in the DE fluff is that it's not a motivation, it's an action created by a motivation. That's why I've said before that the fluff needs to really be centered around their role as *soul vampires.* If you do that, many of the existing pieces fit. Things just need reorganization and changes in emphasis. Unfortunately, the fluff in the current codex touches on soul vampirism but doesn't really feature it, choosing instead to make DE "mysterious." Oooo.


Completely agreed.
One of the biggest differences between Dark and Craftworld Eldar is Dark Eldar have an expanding and healthy population.

I agree, and think that's a very interesting fluff point for Phil K. and co. to explore. That despite their constant flirtation with Slaanesh, DE have been thriving while Craftworlds slowly die. And *that's* the appeal of DE life to an Eldar. Why risk eternal damnation by joining the DE? Because although the DE have suffered a total collapse of civilization and endure a violent existence in the factions (Kabals, cults, etc.) that have replaced said civilization, they offer a path to immortality.

And that's the thing that would trigger a Craftworlder or Exodite to seek out the DE. That moment when they decide I. WANT. MORE. LIFE.

Malice313
08-10-2009, 17:50
Considering this game is now cover-save-hammer, I generally always have a 4++ on my warriors/raiders anyway! =/

I think I got a 4+ cover save against a flamer being able to ignore a 4+ cover save in my last game.:D

jsullivanlaw
08-10-2009, 17:59
I like the idea of I5, WS/BS 4 warriors.

With Fleet of Foot.

How many points a piece though....

Hrmm, I'm thinking 8...

Warriors just need assault weapons, preferrably str 4 like guardians. Wyches have a 4++ in hand to hand combat right now. What else used to have that? TH/SS Terminators, now they get a 3++ all the time. It only makes sense for wyches to get the same rule. Oh wait, they aren't space marines.

Poseidal
08-10-2009, 18:15
Completely agreed.
One of the biggest differences between Dark and Craftworld Eldar is Dark Eldar have an expanding and healthy population.

I, however, cannot agree.

There's simply never been anything written on it. Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar have not been said to be biologically different (the only difference might be through selection, where there might be less psykers in DE)

The idea that the Dark Eldar have been multiplying like rabbits (or cockroaches) is a bit strange - are they biologically different such that their stock is appreciably more fertile than Craftworlder or Exodite stock?

Pre-Fall, the Craftworlders and Exodies were a minority of the Eldar civilization. The Fall consumed the overwhelming majority of the non-Craftworld, non-Exodite Eldar. I would say the position that GW seem to present is the Craftworlders are the premier Eldar population, who cause the most impact on a galactic scale. And the number of Fallen outnumbers the combined survivors manyfold.

We also have possible evidence of Craftworld Eldar population growth: in the entry about Craftworlds it states that they have grown in size since the fall; since you don't expand trading vessels to planet sized behemoths for laughs, I would guess there has been population growth there.

Hokiecow
08-10-2009, 18:20
Funny, it sounds like warrior are mirroring Ork boys a bit with the recommendations for 18" assault 2 weapons and a CCW.
The differences would be:
Boys have a higher toughness, furious charge, and occasionally FOF
Warriors could have FOF, weaker guns but pinnning, and flank?

Wolflord Havoc
08-10-2009, 18:33
I think that the current stats and weapon strengths etc are fine - just bring things like the Talos into line with 5th ed etc.

I also have no issue with the DE being a horde army compared to Craftworld Eldar either!

However the goal posts for the army do need to be changed as they are the race least likely to want to capture ground IMO - they only want to capture living beings (a Necron still has a soul right?).

So perhaps before the game type is diced for a DE player can remove one of the 3 options - giving a 50% chance that the mission he wants is rolled.

Also given that they are raiders and strike from the shadows etc allow the game to start with night fight rules - i.e. if the DE wins the dice off and chooses to go first.

Basically some themed idea based around the idea that as a race the DE dont fight for worlds or even resources or even survival (safe as they are in the webway) only for souls.

Lanparth
08-10-2009, 19:21
I, however, cannot agree.

There's simply never been anything written on it. Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar have not been said to be biologically different (the only difference might be through selection, where there might be less psykers in DE)

The idea that the Dark Eldar have been multiplying like rabbits (or cockroaches) is a bit strange - are they biologically different such that their stock is appreciably more fertile than Craftworlder or Exodite stock?

Pre-Fall, the Craftworlders and Exodies were a minority of the Eldar civilization. The Fall consumed the overwhelming majority of the non-Craftworld, non-Exodite Eldar. I would say the position that GW seem to present is the Craftworlders are the premier Eldar population, who cause the most impact on a galactic scale. And the number of Fallen outnumbers the combined survivors manyfold.

We also have possible evidence of Craftworld Eldar population growth: in the entry about Craftworlds it states that they have grown in size since the fall; since you don't expand trading vessels to planet sized behemoths for laughs, I would guess there has been population growth there.

Part of the thing is man, regular Eldar do not have children unless they have soulstones. Period. That is why they go on dangerous missions to Crone Worlds to collect soul stones. That is one thing majorly hindering their population.

jsullivanlaw
08-10-2009, 19:25
Plus, Dark Eldar spend their free time doing kinky things rather than trying to see the future. This would lead to higher birth rates regardless.

Ayestes
08-10-2009, 19:33
I wrote a Dark Eldar Codex (which I'd have to dig up off my old computer) that once had a variety of changes that me and my friends enjoyed.

As for Warriors, they had Fleet of Foot and Preferred Enemy, their Statline was unchanged, but for the weapons they could carry were changed to:

Stock
Splinter Rifle 18" S:- AP:6 Assault 2, Poisoned (4+)

Heavy Weapons (Up to Two)
Dark Lance- 36" S:8 AP:2 Assault 1, Lance
Splinter Cannon- 24" S:- AP:5 Assault 4, Poisoned (3+)
Disintegrator (min)- 24" S:5 AP:3 Assault 3, Ignores Cover
Disintegrator (max)- 36" S:7 AP:2 Heavy 1, Blast

Special Weapons (Up to Two)
Blaster- 9" S:9 AP:1 Assault 1, Lance
Shredder- Template S:6 AP:- Assault 1
Paralytic Blade & CCW- 2+ Poisoned CCW
Power Weapon & CCW

Sybarite Wargear (Some, by memory)
Splinter Accelerator- 36" S:- AP:4 Assault 2, Poisoned (3+)
Poisoned Weapon- 4+ Poisoned CCW
Dark Pistol- 12" S:8 AP:2 Pistol, Lance
Agoniser- Unchanged

I had a whole series of changes that involved making Reavers, Mandrakes, and Warriors the Troops choices and made things have more of a defined role in combat. Hellions were the hit and run chargers, Reavers the "jump shoot jump" shooty, etc.


Effectively, the Warriors were the fragile creatures they already are (in the 40k world anyway) except loaded with their fantastic weaponry allowing them to be mobile and rain firepower down on them. I believe I had changed the point costs of Warriors to 10 as well in my codex. The primary method of survival with the Dark Eldar is to cut down the enemy before they have a chance to cut you down, and they have to utilize their speed to avoid being shot at first or make sure they get the 'first strike'.

megatrons2nd
08-10-2009, 21:28
Looking at an old article about the Dark Eldar, I think that maybe penalties to reserve rolls and maybe even forcing the opponent to hold some units in reserve may be fitting.

big squig
09-10-2009, 01:05
Honestly guys, you keep going "4+ save seems to not be light", but look at Dire Avengers.


That was my thinking too. Dark eldar warriors are like direavengers. They are not guardians.

megatrons2nd
09-10-2009, 02:30
I believe this is where the limitations of a D6 system rears it's ugly head. The armor should be better than a guardians but not as good as a Dire Avengers, based off of model style and fluff(from tidbits here and there). GW seems to lean towards the lower end of the spectrum when something like that happens. Look at the Tau as another example. They should be better at shooting than Imperial Guard but not quite as good as Marines. They however got a BS3 and even their elites lack a BS4 only the HQ gets that.

Malice313
09-10-2009, 05:17
I believe this is where the limitations of a D6 system rears it's ugly head.

True but the D6 system streamlines the play for larger battles which become protracted a tedious with more complex systems.

Phoenix Command is a classic example of a needlessly complex, slow paced battle field simulation. The action system is broken down into .6 of a second and the damage system factors which organs/tissue/bones are damaged and to what degree.

A one-on-one gun fight can easily take 10 minutes+ to resolve a 3 second exchange.

Give me a D6 system over that any day.

Inquisitor Engel
09-10-2009, 05:42
Dark Eldar get a 5+ save. Any 1's are re-rollable due to reflexes, pointy bits, whatever explanation you like.

Problem solved.

My ideal Dark Eldar list:

HQ - Archon, Master Haemonculus, Wych Coveness, Incubi Lord

ELITES - Incubi, Wyches, Mandrakes, Haemonculus, Grotesques, Solitaire (1)

TROOPS - Warrior Squad, Raider, Slaves (2)

FAST ATTACK - Reaver Jetbikes, Scourges, Harlequin Troupe (3), Raven Fighter (4), Warp Beasts

HEAVY SUPPORT - Slave barge (5), Ravager, Talos, Warp Brutes (6), Talonheart (7)



1) Seems more fitting here than in the Craftworld list and super deadly. Making it an Elites choice rather than a simply Harlequin upgrade makes him cost more and fight for his spot. He won't be a no-brainer and could only be take if the Harlequin Troupe takes up one of those FA choices. Effective, yet costly.

2) Slaves count towards the minimum requirement of Troop choices, but can't claim objectives. If the slave master dies and there's not a slave barge within 12", they are removed from play as they flee the table.

3) There's no reason for Harlequins not to be in the list. Period. They have no allegiances to any one Eldar faction.

4) It's begging for a plastic release - give it to them. It's a beautiful, if fragile kit as is. Plastic would make it worth taking and more durable. The two-hull bomber that saw release for a while should go somewhere too, heavy support?

5) Someone else mentioned it, a wide, low-riding barge that pulls in roped-in captives. Heavily armoured (13/13/10) and armed with a plethora of short-rage anti-troop weapons (to kill the runaways!) but very very slow.

6) Larger, hulking, powerful warp beasts. Perhaps more of a hulking gorilla of distorted flesh and bone that ran through unprotected portions of the webway. Sort of like chaos spawn, but with fixed profiles.

7) Something heavy, relatively quick and with a very big anti-tank gun. Dark Eldar Fire Prism basically. Armoured might would eat Dark Eldar alive otherwise. No transport capacity, 0-1 choice. Very expensive. Again, you're losing out on options, but you're covering your bases as far as all-comers lists too.

That's all I got. Enjoy.

Malice313
09-10-2009, 09:20
I remember a comment on a thread about Dark Eldar a few years ago (yes we have been re-hashing this stuff for a while now!):

One guy proposed Captured Furies used by the Dark Eldar. Due to their imprisoned nature once summoned they just attacked the nearest unit friend or foe.

HK-47
09-10-2009, 20:53
7) Something heavy, relatively quick and with a very big anti-tank gun. Dark Eldar Fire Prism basically. Armoured might would eat Dark Eldar alive otherwise. No transport capacity, 0-1 choice. Very expensive. Again, you're losing out on options, but you're covering your bases as far as all-comers lists too.

That's all I got. Enjoy.

Looks like your not the only one who had this idea.
72312

Though the giant sail in front of the driver may make it hard to steer.

I got it from deviantart.com

Cognitave
09-10-2009, 21:52
1. Warriors are fine. Give the Syrabite the ability to take special weapons (agonizers, power/poison weapons, etc.)

2. Archon should have a 4+ invul available to them. Also, increase the cost of the 2+ invulnerable item, but keep it in there.

3. The current armory is fine. Agonizers are still good, but should be 10-15 points. Make the Incubi helm work in the same way as a mandiblaster (it's just +1A I believe, but feel free to correct me.) and revise the pursuit option for combat drugs to something like "rolls 2d6 for fleet and picks the highest" and the "Always Strikes First" for Relentless.

4. Dreadnought CCW or "Counts as a MC for combat purposes" for the Talos. Seriously.



And for the love of Commorragh, new models.

Malice313
09-10-2009, 22:00
And for the love of Commorragh, new models.

What's wrong with the current ones?:confused: *cowers in anticipation of the barrage of close-at-hand projectiles*

HK-47
09-10-2009, 22:31
1. Warriors are fine. Give the Syrabite the ability to take special weapons (agonizers, power/poison weapons, etc.)

2. Archon should have a 4+ invul available to them. Also, increase the cost of the 2+ invulnerable item, but keep it in there.

3. The current armory is fine. Agonizers are still good, but should be 10-15 points. Make the Incubi helm work in the same way as a mandiblaster (it's just +1A I believe, but feel free to correct me.) and revise the pursuit option for combat drugs to something like "rolls 2d6 for fleet and picks the highest" and the "Always Strikes First" for Relentless.

4. Dreadnought CCW or "Counts as a MC for combat purposes" for the Talos. Seriously.



And for the love of Commorragh, new models.

Yeah, I think that's the main reason no one takes Syrabite that have really crappy options. I'm not so sure about increasing the cost of the shadow field it's almost a must have item for many Archon builds and has a 0-1 limit on it.

Also I thought the tormentor helm already gave you a +1A.

Other suggestions.
Drop the 0-1 limit for warp beasts and Hellions.
Change the scrounges wings from jump packs to jet packs so they can get relentless.
Every weapon but the dark lance, and disintegrator should be assault.
Drop the special deployment from mandrakes, and just give them infiltrate.
Give warriors plasma grenades, and terrorfex grenades. Wychs and Incubi get plasma and haywire grenades.


What's wrong with the current ones?:confused: *cowers in anticipation of the barrage of close-at-hand projectiles*

They are really old and could be better.

I feel they should look something like this.
72319

Malice313
10-10-2009, 04:50
They are really old and could be better.

I feel they should look something like this.
72319

Unfortunately text doesn't carry saracism well.:( Awesome pic though!!!

megatrons2nd
13-10-2009, 05:19
Couldn't think of were else to put this. I was told to not rebuild to much of my Dark Eldar, because the new models would make me not want to keep most of the old ones. I was not told that they were finished, however it sounded like some were done, so with this little bit of information I believe that we will see Dark Eldar sometime in 2010. There isn't much else so I figured it didn't warrant it's own rumor thread.

Malice313
13-10-2009, 05:26
Couldn't think of were else to put this. I was told to not rebuild to much of my Dark Eldar, because the new models would make me not want to keep most of the old ones. I was not told that they were finished, however it sounded like some were done, so with this little bit of information I believe that we will see Dark Eldar sometime in 2010. There isn't much else so I figured it didn't warrant it's own rumor thread.

That "seems" be the case... but don't hold your breath!!!:eek: Its been so long coming that its entered the realms of myth.

I'd avoid rebuilding and stick to what you have got though. Or maybe you might like to as it will make them bring it out sooner; like those people who believe lighting a cigarette will make a bus arrive sooner.:confused:

Cognitave
13-10-2009, 05:52
We stopped complaining a while ago. I mean, look what happened to the squats!
:(

Dranthar
13-10-2009, 08:14
Dark Eldar in 2010? After 10 years of Dark Eldar being 'just around the corner', I'll believe it when I see it. ;)

Here's my take on a Dark Eldar Warrior;

Stats remain as is.

Equipment: Poisoned Blade (Poisoned 4+ to wound), Splinter Pistol, Splinter Rifle, Plasma Grenades
Splinter Pistol/Rifle keep their current stats, except to add poisoned (4+).

Options: Can take one blaster/shredder per 10 models, and a Splinter Cannon/Dark Lance/Disintegrator per 10 models.
If 10 models or less, can take a Raider.
May upgrade one model to a sybarite, who can replace his equipment with an Agoniser (Poisoned 4+, Power Weapon), Terrorfex (as is), Haywire Grenades, and/or Shard Rifle (Sniper rifle w. AP2).
Units with a sybarite may take one of the following;
- Enhanced poisons (PBs wound on a 2+ in combat)
- Soulseeker ammo (splinter weapons reroll misses in shooting phase and ignore cover)
- Screamer Shards (splinter weapons become pinning)
- Combat drugs "lite" (preferred enemy in combat)
- Shadow cloaks (gain scouts USR, or +1 cover)

All of the other units in the DE army would need a similar such upgrade, either to bring them more in line with the standard DE warrior or to actually make them viable choices. :rolleyes:

So basically you retain their fragility, but massively ramp up their offensive power. I'd also seriously consider a boost in points cost for a unit like the above, which would further accentuate their fragility.
The unit-wide upgrades are partially to make the standard warrior squad the most flexible unit in the DE list, but also to allow players to theme them towards a wych cult, Haemonculus coven, etc. The only upgrade I'm not sure about is the shadow cloaks (intended for a mandrake theme), since it's either very overpowered (raider squads coming on from the board edge? B0RKEN!) or not really fitting the 'fragile' theme (+1 cover = extra durability).

I think it's important to remember that when they were released, Dark Eldar were intended as the fragile version of Space marines, as in their standard units were very flexible in what they could do. Except where the Space marines were highly durable yet with average abilities in all phases, the Dark Eldar were fragile yet excellent at all phases.
If GW keeps that design philosophy with the Dark Eldar, it'll be an excellent start. :D

druchii
13-10-2009, 08:41
I've been thinking about DE for a long time.

What doesn't sit right with me?

The fact that these guys are supposed to be piretical raiders, but they're equipped with weapons that prevent them from charging after they shoot!

I've always envisioned DE as being along the same statline, but changing their gear a bit.

First off, make their rifle an assault weapon. Now they can shoot AND charge! Also, make them akin to the current kroot rifle. Yeah, let their rifle count as an additional CCW. I mean the DE AND his rifle are covered in lethal blades! Heck, some of them are larger than the warrior's arm!

I've been debating how to work in a suitable poisoned rule into their shooting, without making it somewhat useless against t3, while not making it incredibly nasty to high T units (ever see what skinks do to a giant in WH:fantasy?).

Finally, I think the DE should have a special rule where they count as having offensive grenades when they charge out of a raider.

So now we've turned a "zoom around and shoot you" force into something more along the lines of a "zoom around and charge you like pirates!-YARR!", we've also upped the synnergy between the basic warrior (and other nasty close combat goonies) and their "ship".

I think this would "fix" their troops choices pretty well, and help direct the rest of the codex in the right "direction".

d

ps. any ideas on the poisoning of the splinter rifle?

Dranthar
13-10-2009, 09:03
Druchii;

A S3, poisoned weapon like a splinter rifle would reroll failed wounds against toughness 3 targets, so it'd be far from useless against T3 infantry.
Poisoned would be quite strong against high toughness units, although the only common such units are Death guard and Plaguebearers. Both of these have FnP, which goes some way in negating poisoned. Monsterous creatures like carnifex's and daemon princes would be at a severe disadvantage, but I can't imagine that's bad enough to unbalance the entire army, right? Besides, DPs are taken often enough that the metagame could really benefit from some more poisoned attacks running about. ;)

Finally, as I aluded in my above post, I think Dark Eldar warriors should be all-rounders - dangerous in both assault and shooting. The poisoned shooting certainly helps with that. In regards to assault, rather than giving Dark Eldar the rules you stated above, I think it's simpler just to equip them each with a splinter rifle, splinter pistol, CCW and plasma grenades. I'm all for giving them poisoned attacks in assault too, mainly because it actually makes them more than a crappy sybarite delivery system, like they are now.

Souleater
13-10-2009, 09:08
I'd be fine with that as long as the Splinter Rifle goes down to 18".

Poison, extra attack I think would be a good trade off.

Although why GW gave Guardians and Warriors the weapons they did....

megatrons2nd
13-10-2009, 15:32
I believe in the original fluff for the splinter rifle they are poisoned. They just didn't get the ability in game. If they give it to them in game it should be a low strength poison, something like a 5+ poison Strength 3 weapon. It would only really benefit against creatures they would have a hard time hurting to begin with.

jsullivanlaw
13-10-2009, 17:44
5+ poison is worthless... It will make the gun WORSE against GEQ. And by the way, range poison weapons never have str values so you only reroll poison wounds in hand to hand. 4+ poison or just make the damn thing str 4.

megatrons2nd
13-10-2009, 17:52
Well there is no rules for poisoned range weapons that I can find. So it is possible that they can give the weapon a strength value and a poisoned value. The poisoned value would be used when the strength value would not wound or would generate a to wound role worse than the poisoned value. It might even sound like the Gauss rule for Necrons, which against troops that they couldn't noramally hurt they can hurt on a roll of 6+, in addition to all the other stuff.

Derzhus
13-10-2009, 19:02
As far as poisoned weapons go how about this: 12" Assault 2 S4 Poison 5+ AP6

This would mean that they get re-rollable 5+ to wound on average joes but against the stronger stuff they can only wound on a 5+. This makes the gun better than the suggested S3 Poison 4+ at putting wounds on regular infantry but not brokenly powerful against higher Toughness models such as Carnifex and Greater Deamons. (fun fact- this gun would essentially be a bolt gun against a regular CSM DP)

Tymell
13-10-2009, 19:06
There's one rule I've always wanted for Dark Eldar, ever since they came out. Back then, my idea was that Dark Eldar would always be able to choose to fight at night, but were also immune to it themselves. It seemed to fit with their background of being the raiders who almost always choose the time and place of the attack, who get close to strike before their enemies even know they're there.


Splinter weapons are not supposed to be effective at killing things. They are supposed to cause agony in their foes, but not to kill them. That's why they're weak. If you came up with a 'poisoned ammo' rule for them, that'd be cool.

A poisoned ammo rule does sound cool to me. But one thing to note: not all casualties in a game of warhammer need be actual deaths. Some might be knocked unconscious, crippled, maimed, or otherwise incapacitated for the rest of the fight. So splinter weapons not very usually killing enemies doesn't have to mean they don't often "kill" them in warhammer terms.

Emeraldw
13-10-2009, 19:15
5+ poison is worthless... It will make the gun WORSE against GEQ. And by the way, range poison weapons never have str values so you only reroll poison wounds in hand to hand. 4+ poison or just make the damn thing str 4.

actually, mathematically a 5+ with reroll is slightly better than a 4+ base.

You get slightly higher firepower against GEQ and a decent chance to wound things that you normally wouldn't hurt (T5 or higher). Not so bad right?

CrownAxe
13-10-2009, 19:53
actually, mathematically a 5+ with reroll is slightly better than a 4+ base.

You get slightly higher firepower against GEQ and a decent chance to wound things that you normally wouldn't hurt (T5 or higher). Not so bad right?

He's under the impression that ranged poison gets no reroll because they don't have a strength value

Dexter099
14-10-2009, 01:54
What I currently don't like about the Dark Eldar is that the fluff doesn't particularly match how they are used on the table. They are supposed to be pirates and raiders, performing fast surprise assaults. Instead, a lot of lists turn up with an IG style gun line of dark lances, with just few fast moving close combat units.
It's not that the focus needs to be changed from shooting to close combat, but I think that the main troop type, and the army in general, needs to be far more mobile.

These lists tend to suck as the codex means them to. The codex rewards the Dark Eldar player for using his mobility and punishes him for trying to play his army just like any other.


The army still works quite well as is, the only other major change I would call for is to allow different Troops choices depending on what your HQ choices are, ala the current SM codex.

Some of it already exists, but I get your drift.



The army could generally be made far more characterful of there was a higher emphases on poisoned and pinning weapons, it would give it a niche: "this is what Dark Eldar does that is different from any other army, and it does it well"

A slight increase in poisoned weapons would be great, but there are already plenty of pinning weapons.


One last and somewhat more extreme idea is to give Raiders an upgrade allowing them to outflank (which is better than Deep Strike before someone mentions that), whilst a bit too powerful rules-wise, it fits in far better with the whole raiding ethos.

An interesting idea. Sort of like the all-outflanking brother of the all deep-striking demon army.


Other wish-listing options I've seen thrown around is to make ALL splinter weapons poisoned, make Grotesques act like plague marines with no armour save, allow Scourges to ignore cover saves, give Talos jump packs, give Reavers all the normal Wych options, Make prisoners give soul points akin to faith points, and various other less sensible options.

Some of these sound ok, but no soul points please.

Malice313
14-10-2009, 03:54
I've often thought that Mandrakes with A2 and the 2+ poison blades would make them a formidable, yet not too cheesy unit that fit the "assassin" fluff.

Inquisitor Engel
14-10-2009, 04:52
I have a sneaking suspicion the aesthetic and overall feeling of the race might well be close to the recent stint of Romulans we had in the JJ Abrams Star Trek. It makes a lot of sense, and it's not a bad aesthetic.

It'd be disappointing, but it wouldn't be the worst thing ever.

Helmut
14-10-2009, 08:11
As fo weapons i see splinter rifle like this:
18" s3 ap5 Assault1 Rending
or
12" s3 ap5 Assault2 Rending

Rending becouse poisoned crystal shard can sometimes punch through armor, and kill even toughest monster (when 6 to wound is rolled)

Souleater
14-10-2009, 09:21
@ Engel: I wouldn't be surprised. The 'mining' ship the Roumulans had looked exactly as I would imagine a big DE vessel to look...rather than a giant Reaver...

druchii
14-10-2009, 17:06
Druchii;

A S3, poisoned weapon like a splinter rifle would reroll failed wounds against toughness 3 targets, so it'd be far from useless against T3 infantry.
Poisoned would be quite strong against high toughness units, although the only common such units are Death guard and Plaguebearers. Both of these have FnP, which goes some way in negating poisoned. Monsterous creatures like carnifex's and daemon princes would be at a severe disadvantage, but I can't imagine that's bad enough to unbalance the entire army, right? Besides, DPs are taken often enough that the metagame could really benefit from some more poisoned attacks running about. ;)

Finally, as I aluded in my above post, I think Dark Eldar warriors should be all-rounders - dangerous in both assault and shooting. The poisoned shooting certainly helps with that. In regards to assault, rather than giving Dark Eldar the rules you stated above, I think it's simpler just to equip them each with a splinter rifle, splinter pistol, CCW and plasma grenades. I'm all for giving them poisoned attacks in assault too, mainly because it actually makes them more than a crappy sybarite delivery system, like they are now.


Hrm,
In the BGB it states that only poisoned attacks in close combat get the reroll. I mean we could obviously change this around for the DE, but like I said I was going for more of a thematic initial brain-storm than the nitty gritty.

I'm also inclined to keep the shooty aspect of the basic warrior down to a "neatness" to encourage a more raider style of fighting-shooting to soften the enemy up, followed by a charge.

In this vein I'd like to see splinter rifles limited to a 12" range (while granting the DE boys the extra CC attack like in my last post and granting them poison on both CC/shooting).

Finally I've been thinking about an armywide rule that somehow incents the DE players to pick on small/isolated/weak/easy to kill units.

Something like: for every non-vehicle unit killed the DE gain a specific resource (like epidemius' tally? SOB faith points?-hell steal directly from Dawn of War-SOUL points!) that allow them to do something. I don't know what, yet, but something that really rewards the DE player for being a sadistic goon.

Ever see your opponent toss those scouts in a tower off to the side of the board because he thinks you'll ignore them so he can shoot you all day? Now DE players will be rewarded for going after those buggers specifically because they're easy targets. Playing like a piretical raider...

more to come.
d

jsullivanlaw
14-10-2009, 17:53
Well there is no rules for poisoned range weapons that I can find. So it is possible that they can give the weapon a strength value and a poisoned value. The poisoned value would be used when the strength value would not wound or would generate a to wound role worse than the poisoned value. It might even sound like the Gauss rule for Necrons, which against troops that they couldn't noramally hurt they can hurt on a roll of 6+, in addition to all the other stuff.

Poison ranged weapons list str as N/A. They are out there, look at the rules for Kugath in the Daemon codex or the banewolf (i think). I've never seen a poisoned ranged weapon that gets a reroll.

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 18:12
Poison ranged weapons list str as N/A. They are out there, look at the rules for Kugath in the Daemon codex or the banewolf (i think). I've never seen a poisoned ranged weapon that gets a reroll.

Actually Poisoned weapons have a str value for when shooting vehicles. It just seems they are all counted as str 1 (hellfire).

Firaxin
14-10-2009, 20:58
In this vein I'd like to see splinter rifles limited to a 12" range
That would make even less sense than making shuriken catapults 12" did. Splinter rifles are hand-held semi-automatic rail guns. Granted, shuriken catapults operate on the same principle as a railgun too, but they fire hundreds of shots in a broad pattern (almost like a shotgun...) instead of one or two single shots.

Paul Nexus
14-10-2009, 22:55
A poisoned ammo rule does sound cool to me. But one thing to note: not all casualties in a game of warhammer need be actual deaths. Some might be knocked unconscious, crippled, maimed, or otherwise incapacitated for the rest of the fight. So splinter weapons not very usually killing enemies doesn't have to mean they don't often "kill" them in warhammer terms

Indeed, I agree. The problem with the current weapon is that it often does not even hurt the enemy. No slave/plaything there, it just bounced right off. The prisoners taken by the Dark Eldar are from those wounded in battle, thus the weapon really does need to 'Wound' a bit more :P

druchii
15-10-2009, 02:53
That would make even less sense than making shuriken catapults 12" did. Splinter rifles are hand-held semi-automatic rail guns. Granted, shuriken catapults operate on the same principle as a railgun too, but they fire hundreds of shots in a broad pattern (almost like a shotgun...) instead of one or two single shots.

This is incorrect. Shuriken weapons actually shoot hundreds of monofilament projectiles in a very tight pattern (much like an assault rifle). One could argue that splinter weapons (which act much more like a shotgun, actually, since their "ammo" is a singular crystal which is shattered and fired "with the same pulse" much like buckshot) are inaccurately represented.

But are you really going to argue with me about a piece of wargear that has a tiny paragraph explaining its operation, using very vague words?

Why do people assume that fluff and rules are synonymous? Fluff is mere an EXCUSE for cool/balanced rules.

In the context of the DE warrior as I have explained him, giving him a longer ranged weapon makes little sense (especially seeing as how eldar quite obviously prefer to get up into the grill of their opponents, see them die face to face, and take some prisoners). Somehow 10 warriors with rapidfire 24" weapons and two dark lances chilling in a corner doesn't quite fit this scheme.

Allowing a DE warrior to have 3 attacks on the charge (either by giving him two CCWS or allowing his "rifle" to act as an additional CCW like I've said) AND granting him a specific number of shots could go overboard.

You could write essays upon essays of how weapons "work" and I'd read the abstract in a few, and then design rules that were fun and balanced and cool to play with.

Realism = suck.

d

Firaxin
15-10-2009, 03:21
But are you really going to argue with me about a piece of wargear that has a tiny paragraph explaining its operation, using very vague words?
No. Especially since I've read the DE codex like twice in my life, and haven't looked at the Eldar codex in months.


Allowing a DE warrior to have 3 attacks on the charge (either by giving him two CCWS or allowing his "rifle" to act as an additional CCW like I've said) AND granting him a specific number of shots could go overboard.
Neither work in conjunction with a 12" weapon, though. They work great for Kroot, but if a DE's weapon is 12" assault 2... he'll basically be getting 5 attacks on the charge. Keeping the weapon a long ranged rapid fire and granting the bonus CC attack balances it out and gives the DE player options to work with. Does he rapid fire 2 poisoned shots, or charge for 3 non-poisoned attacks? This variability, especially in the army's core unit, is essential. Your method would drive players into a closecombat-only style.

People don't put warrior squads in corners because they can fire their splinter rifles once each out to 24" if they sit still; they do it because they can fire their 2 Dark Lances out to 36" if they sit still.

druchii
15-10-2009, 03:58
No. Especially since I've read the DE codex like twice in my life, and haven't looked at the Eldar codex in months.


Neither work in conjunction with a 12" weapon, though. They work great for Kroot, but if a DE's weapon is 12" assault 2... he'll basically be getting 5 attacks on the charge. Keeping the weapon a long ranged rapid fire and granting the bonus CC attack balances it out and gives the DE player options to work with. Does he rapid fire 2 poisoned shots, or charge for 3 non-poisoned attacks? This variability, especially in the army's core unit, is essential. Your method would drive players into a closecombat-only style.

People don't put warrior squads in corners because they can fire their splinter rifles once each out to 24" if they sit still; they do it because they can fire their 2 Dark Lances out to 36" if they sit still.

I think you've just proven my point. DE are NOT flexible. They're piretical raiders. They're not civilians press-ganged into military service or Tactical Marines. They're PIRATES who are there SO THEY CAN chop people up, wrap them up in razorwire, and tote them home.

The ONLY way we will see a DE codex is if they have a distinct FEEL and play differently than the other books-that's why we've seen such a delay on them. This idea that core troops need to be "all rounders" is absurd (look at the Eldar and demons book!). DE (fitting their fluff) SHOULD be given an incentive to get up close and personal with their enemy-exactly for the reasons I stated above.

People putting piretical raiding units made up of individuals who are there solely for the pleasure of chopping things to bits (whether it be with close combat weapons of shotgun-style shooting) should NOT be shoved in the corner of the board sniping things. That's what scouts and snipers do. Not pirates.

Also there is a large distinction between shooting and close combat attacks (mainly because the DE shooting will usually hit on 3s, and give the opponent cover saves, and not allow rerollable poison wounds-and the CCW attacks have the chance to be stripped, effected by cover, etc.).

Remember we're shooting for a flavor of a codex here, as well as general brain-storming ideas. Then rules to follow. If you think warriors should be "general all rounders" well then I'd suggest finding a different thread. The role of "generalist troops choice" is already dominated by a different line of models. We don't want another bland choice running around.

d

ps. Kroot rifles do not allow Kroot to shoot and then charge into combat, as they're rapid fire weapons.

Firaxin
15-10-2009, 05:59
I think you've just proven my point. DE are NOT flexible. They're piretical raiders. They're not civilians press-ganged into military service or Tactical Marines. They're PIRATES who are there SO THEY CAN chop people up, wrap them up in razorwire, and tote them home.
They're pirates out of necessity, because they need the souls in order to continue their perverse behavior in Commorragh/wherever in peace from Slaanesh. They wouldn't if they didn't have to, but unfortunately they have to put in their bit before they can become Archons/etc and send minions in their place.

The DE understand this. They know if they live long enough they'll reach those higher ranks, and some among them will decide to take the safest route and poison their prey from afar rather than charge into hand to hand every time.

Thus, unless we want to say like-thinking individuals naturally bond together, allowing us to divide Warrior squads into shooty and CCy versions (like guardians vs storm guardians), the basic warrior squad will have to be flexible to represent the varying viewpoints of individual raiders within the unit.


(look at the Eldar and demons book!)
Well, since we're not inventing units, I'd like to point out that the Eldar and Daemon troops choices can afford to specialize. The Eldar and Daemons both have 4 'core' choices. With the DE we're working with one: Warriors.


People putting piretical raiding units made up of individuals who are there solely for the pleasure of chopping things to bits (whether it be with close combat weapons of shotgun-style shooting) should NOT be shoved in the corner of the board sniping things. That's what scouts and snipers do. Not pirates.
*facepalm*

a) The Dark Eldar do not only enjoy carving things up in close combat, and even if they did, they still always (as any pirate should) weigh their own lives against the risk and what's at stake. If it's a particularly valuable soul that can be taken down best in close combat? Sure, the warrior will charge. Is the soul going to kill you either because it's a better shooter or because it's close combat oriented and it's faster than you? Sure, the warrior will charge. But any warrior with half a brain would (and should be able to) sit back and shoot from safety while his fellow warriors take the risk roaming closer to the enemy, if he sees the possibility.

b) I've already told you the reason they're standing in corners currently is not because they have rapid fire basic weapons.


We don't want another bland choice running around.
What I've suggested would make warriors unique among the standard troop choices. Just because it doesn't agree with your opinion of them doesn't make it bland.


ps. Kroot rifles do not allow Kroot to shoot and then charge into combat, as they're rapid fire weapons.
Exactly, that's why making the kroot rifle count as 2 CCWs in close combat is acceptable. If it were assault 2, kroot would basically have 5 Str4 attacks on the charge. OTT.

toxic_wisdom
15-10-2009, 07:22
Warriors ( same stat line and same point cost )
-- Fleet of Foot
-- Splinter Rifle S3 AP5 Assault 2 Range 18" ( Blades: +1 attack when they charge )

Souleater
15-10-2009, 11:11
They're pirates out of necessity...

I disagree.

I think they are pirates because they prefer attacking, killing and slaving to farming humans a la the Matrix.

Which they could probably do from inside the 'safety' of the Webway.

Might lead to a DE version of Sim Human Cattle but wouldn't make them very useful as a protagonist who can show up almost anywhere in the universe and attack your toy soldiers :D

druchii
16-10-2009, 00:27
They're pirates out of necessity, because they need the souls in order to continue their perverse behavior in Commorragh/wherever in peace from Slaanesh. They wouldn't if they didn't have to, but unfortunately they have to put in their bit before they can become Archons/etc and send minions in their place.

The DE understand this. They know if they live long enough they'll reach those higher ranks, and some among them will decide to take the safest route and poison their prey from afar rather than charge into hand to hand every time.

Thus, unless we want to say like-thinking individuals naturally bond together, allowing us to divide Warrior squads into shooty and CCy versions (like guardians vs storm guardians), the basic warrior squad will have to be flexible to represent the varying viewpoints of individual raiders within the unit.


Well, since we're not inventing units, I'd like to point out that the Eldar and Daemon troops choices can afford to specialize. The Eldar and Daemons both have 4 'core' choices. With the DE we're working with one: Warriors.


*facepalm*

a) The Dark Eldar do not only enjoy carving things up in close combat, and even if they did, they still always (as any pirate should) weigh their own lives against the risk and what's at stake. If it's a particularly valuable soul that can be taken down best in close combat? Sure, the warrior will charge. Is the soul going to kill you either because it's a better shooter or because it's close combat oriented and it's faster than you? Sure, the warrior will charge. But any warrior with half a brain would (and should be able to) sit back and shoot from safety while his fellow warriors take the risk roaming closer to the enemy, if he sees the possibility.

b) I've already told you the reason they're standing in corners currently is not because they have rapid fire basic weapons.


What I've suggested would make warriors unique among the standard troop choices. Just because it doesn't agree with your opinion of them doesn't make it bland.


Exactly, that's why making the kroot rifle count as 2 CCWs in close combat is acceptable. If it were assault 2, kroot would basically have 5 Str4 attacks on the charge. OTT.

Not to be rude, but where are you getting your information?

I mean you haven't read the DE book three times (by your own admission) so how would you know?

And DE ENJOY slaughtering people-there is NO fluff whatsoever to support you position that the DE are only there to "put in their time." I mean I bet the dude beneath Asdrubael has been putting his time for the entire history of 40k.

Not to bring up the fact that every piece of condoned GW fluff comes right out and says that DE prefer to get in and chop people to bits (if you don't believe me, read the Grahm McNeil Ultramarines books). DE are sadists BY CHOICE-they're still stuck in the decadent phase that the Craft World eldar got eaten out of.

How would you know what DE like? Again, by your own admission you really don't know much about DE at all. There's nothing in their fluff (in the codex) or in the various GW books including the DE that says the DE prefer to sit from afar and "pick" on their prey. And really, most DE are "addicted" to inflicting pain and misery on their opponents, so much so that they'd live in a city where people constantly eat eachother and backstab. So much so that getting in someone's grill and chopping them up is most likely safer than sitting at home watching TV.

And like I said, if you think pirates sitting in a corner sniping things in any way upholds the "idea" of DE or the "feel" then you're trying to make the wrong army. As I've stated twice before (you're missing the point here apparently) the splinter rifles have nothing to do with the sniper teams. They're still lame, but they don't have anything to do with them.

And your disagreement doesn't make the proposed idea bland. The actual practice of trying to make DE warriors "generic all-rounders" makes them bland. By trying to shove them in the exact same direction as other, better established armies (try marines or sisters if you want generalist troops) definitely makes them boring as sin-flavorless.

Are you saying that 5 s4 i3 attacks are over the top? What about a unit with 3s4 (hitting on 3s) and 2s2i5 attacks? At a better armor save and only 2 pts more expensive? Yeah, Dire Avengers essentially pump out 5 attacks when they bladestorm and charge.

How about the basic chaos marine? He gets one pistol shot (s4, hitting on 3s) and three CCW attacks (ws4/s4). I'll let you do the math and see which units are better in assault.

So trying to say kroot with that many attacks are OTT is just plain wrong. You're failing to account for the rest of the unit's profile.

So: you're failing to get the "feel" and "point" of DE by trying to make their troops generalists. And somehow backing the use of a weapon that prevents a bloodthirsty sadist from getting to grips with his prey with flawed and misleading information?

d

ps. Maybe reading the DE book again (and heck, some of the books that actually feature them...) would help with the general "flavor" of the army.

Tokugawa100
16-10-2009, 00:59
I disagree.

I think they are pirates because they prefer attacking, killing and slaving to farming humans a la the Matrix.

Which they could probably do from inside the 'safety' of the Webway.

Might lead to a DE version of Sim Human Cattle but wouldn't make them very useful as a protagonist who can show up almost anywhere in the universe and attack your toy soldiers :D

If dark eldar didnt need slaves to keep their economy going then they would never leave Commaragh, they'd stay in the streets and kill each other.

So they are pirates by neccesity.

If they didnt have to leave the dark city I dont think they would, its safe, isolated and dark eldar can eat each others souls.

Sadly they do need slaves:cries:

ShadowDeth
16-10-2009, 01:00
My input :

The Dark Eldar could use Poison 6+, or 5+ on their splinter rifles. I don't think that would be overpowering, but you do run into the unsightly situation of 10 warriors sometimes bringing down Monstrous creatures.

Reavers as troops, either standard or with the appropriate Archon on Bike. Reduced price, brought inline with the Eldar Bikes.

Nightshields provide nightfight.

I believe they will be gotten "right" this time, because all the groundwork for how an un-armored force evades/soaks damage was all written in the Harlequin Citadel Journal Codex.

I suspect DE in 5th to be high on evasion abilities and misdirection.

Tokugawa100
16-10-2009, 01:07
Not to be rude, but where are you getting your information?

I mean you haven't read the DE book three times (by your own admission) so how would you know?

And DE ENJOY slaughtering people-there is NO fluff whatsoever to support you position that the DE are only there to "put in their time." I mean I bet the dude beneath Asdrubael has been putting his time for the entire history of 40k.

Not to bring up the fact that every piece of condoned GW fluff comes right out and says that DE prefer to get in and chop people to bits (if you don't believe me, read the Grahm McNeil Ultramarines books). DE are sadists BY CHOICE-they're still stuck in the decadent phase that the Craft World eldar got eaten out of.

How would you know what DE like? Again, by your own admission you really don't know much about DE at all. There's nothing in their fluff (in the codex) or in the various GW books including the DE that says the DE prefer to sit from afar and "pick" on their prey. And really, most DE are "addicted" to inflicting pain and misery on their opponents, so much so that they'd live in a city where people constantly eat eachother and backstab. So much so that getting in someone's grill and chopping them up is most likely safer than sitting at home watching TV.

And like I said, if you think pirates sitting in a corner sniping things in any way upholds the "idea" of DE or the "feel" then you're trying to make the wrong army. As I've stated twice before (you're missing the point here apparently) the splinter rifles have nothing to do with the sniper teams. They're still lame, but they don't have anything to do with them.

And your disagreement doesn't make the proposed idea bland. The actual practice of trying to make DE warriors "generic all-rounders" makes them bland. By trying to shove them in the exact same direction as other, better established armies (try marines or sisters if you want generalist troops) definitely makes them boring as sin-flavorless.

Are you saying that 5 s4 i3 attacks are over the top? What about a unit with 3s4 (hitting on 3s) and 2s2i5 attacks? At a better armor save and only 2 pts more expensive? Yeah, Dire Avengers essentially pump out 5 attacks when they bladestorm and charge.

How about the basic chaos marine? He gets one pistol shot (s4, hitting on 3s) and three CCW attacks (ws4/s4). I'll let you do the math and see which units are better in assault.

So trying to say kroot with that many attacks are OTT is just plain wrong. You're failing to account for the rest of the unit's profile.

So: you're failing to get the "feel" and "point" of DE by trying to make their troops generalists. And somehow backing the use of a weapon that prevents a bloodthirsty sadist from getting to grips with his prey with flawed and misleading information?

d

ps. Maybe reading the DE book again (and heck, some of the books that actually feature them...) would help with the general "flavor" of the army.


1. Reading the DE Eldar codex 3 times "ive read it countless times" isnt a great achievement, you can fit the tiny amount of fluff in the palm of your hand.

2. About Graham Mcniels book, please dont bring in anything BL to explain your proof that dark eldar like to run in and kill people.
Everything ive read in a Black Library with Dark Eldar makes a mockery of their tactics.
They make them no better then orks where they charge, kill, get defeated, retreat.

3. The idea of all rounders for Dark Eldar warriors makes sense from a fluff point of view.
These guys spend their whole lives being survivalists and need to know everything to survive everything.
It might sound bland to you but it makes sense.

Tymell
16-10-2009, 01:19
If dark eldar didnt need slaves to keep their economy going then they would never leave Commaragh, they'd stay in the streets and kill each other.

So they are pirates by neccesity.

If they didnt have to leave the dark city I dont think they would, its safe, isolated and dark eldar can eat each others souls.

Sadly they do need slaves:cries:

I don't think it's quite that simple.

Personally, I think Dark Eldar do what they do because it's what they do. Because they want to. Because they can. That, to me, is what makes the race so interesting: they are the ultimate embodiment of selfishness. In that respect, they're not actually "evil" as such. They just take the selfishness that is inherent in all sentient beings to it's logical extreme. They consider other races as cattle, as lesser beings, and see no problem in exploiting them however they wish.

Slaves are an integral part of their lifestyle, no doubt, but I think the phrase "pirates by neccessity" suggests too much that they do it only because they have to, and thus feel somehow bad about it. I think it is a neccessity for them, yes, but I wouldn't say that's the only reason they do it. Their lifestyle neccessitates it, but that lifestyle is itself their choice.

Hokiecow
16-10-2009, 02:21
It sounds like your agreeing with each other.

Pirating is how they continue, survive. If Dark Eldar is not society about moving forward; it's about living in the moment and indulging in life's extreme pleasures (good or bad). For this society to support it's immediate desires and survive it must pirate else they would find a way to sustain themselves without the risk of destroying themselves (which would make them Craftworld Eldar).

druchii
16-10-2009, 03:42
1. Reading the DE Eldar codex 3 times "ive read it countless times" isnt a great achievement, you can fit the tiny amount of fluff in the palm of your hand.

2. About Graham Mcniels book, please dont bring in anything BL to explain your proof that dark eldar like to run in and kill people.
Everything ive read in a Black Library with Dark Eldar makes a mockery of their tactics.
They make them no better then orks where they charge, kill, get defeated, retreat.

3. The idea of all rounders for Dark Eldar warriors makes sense from a fluff point of view.
These guys spend their whole lives being survivalists and need to know everything to survive everything.
It might sound bland to you but it makes sense.

1. So the "tiny" amount of fluff describes the DE as I have, so it shouldn't be so hard to grasp, huh? :) If you need an example of how reading the DE book (he actually said he read it twice, not three times) a few times can lead to ISSUES when posting in a DARK ELDAR thread, scroll up. Posting which one would assume requires a bit of foresight, insight and other types of sight into the Dark Eldar progression and "feel".

2.That's funny because Grahm's DE were clever, cunning, ruthless and definitely NOT "orkish" at all in their tactics, motives or actions.

3. From a fluff point of view there's not much to go on. Now if you're arguing that a DE warrior would be a generalist just because he'd survive that way, well, then you're mistaken. Knowing and doing are two VERY different things. The limited fluff in the book depicts the DE as opportunistic, close quarters killers. The better to gather slaves.

What one knows and prefers to do are quite different- I can't see anyone honestly rationalizing how a being who exists solely in the moment, in the visceral FEELING of a moment would prefer to sit in the corner of the battlefield and snipe away. How a being who NEEDS to feed on souls would be so far from the action as to be unable to see the pain and agony on his prey's face...

You have to remember that we're assuming that the DE are quite close to the pre-fall eldar style of life-extacy in the agony, if you will.

And "making sense" and "bearing a unique and stylish fighting style" are two completely, seperate things.

d

ps. Instead of trying to shoot me down, offer up some of your own rules, please. Constructive criticism willl see this thread last longer than the typical IG or SW whine threads. If you don't like my ideas, propose something more thematic.

Malice313
16-10-2009, 04:11
ps. Instead of trying to shoot me down, offer up some of your own rules, please. Constructive criticism willl see this thread last longer than the typical IG or SW whine threads. If you don't like my ideas, propose something more thematic.

Mudslinging is easier than thinking about what everyone else is saying. Unfortunately this is the way of this and every other public speaking platform.:(

Tokugawa100
16-10-2009, 09:19
1. So the "tiny" amount of fluff describes the DE as I have, so it shouldn't be so hard to grasp, huh? :) If you need an example of how reading the DE book (he actually said he read it twice, not three times) a few times can lead to ISSUES when posting in a DARK ELDAR thread, scroll up. Posting which one would assume requires a bit of foresight, insight and other types of sight into the Dark Eldar progression and "feel".

2.That's funny because Grahm's DE were clever, cunning, ruthless and definitely NOT "orkish" at all in their tactics, motives or actions.

3. From a fluff point of view there's not much to go on. Now if you're arguing that a DE warrior would be a generalist just because he'd survive that way, well, then you're mistaken. Knowing and doing are two VERY different things. The limited fluff in the book depicts the DE as opportunistic, close quarters killers. The better to gather slaves.

What one knows and prefers to do are quite different- I can't see anyone honestly rationalizing how a being who exists solely in the moment, in the visceral FEELING of a moment would prefer to sit in the corner of the battlefield and snipe away. How a being who NEEDS to feed on souls would be so far from the action as to be unable to see the pain and agony on his prey's face...

You have to remember that we're assuming that the DE are quite close to the pre-fall eldar style of life-extacy in the agony, if you will.

And "making sense" and "bearing a unique and stylish fighting style" are two completely, seperate things.

d

ps. Instead of trying to shoot me down, offer up some of your own rules, please. Constructive criticism willl see this thread last longer than the typical IG or SW whine threads. If you don't like my ideas, propose something more thematic.


I apoligise if you thought I was trying to shoot you down personally:angel:

It was not my intention I assure you, if I see a post I dont agree with I just try to reply as best I can and it doesnt help when Im half asleep:D

One thing I will say though is the argument of why the Drak Eldar do things, live their lives and their motives cant truly be right.
Everything argued is based on perspective.

I personally think Dark Eldar are manipulative, cruel hedonistic sociopaths who would specialise in all facets of war because they need to.

But this is not everyones view and we cant really say what is right until we see a new codex with some concrete fluff.

We cant have these kind of discussions about say orks or marines because its written why these people do the things they do.
So it is futile to claim that your own opinion is right as I did, its hard with so little fluff.

Sorry for offence taken, not my intention and I do apoligise.

Tokugawa100
16-10-2009, 09:27
a) The Dark Eldar do not only enjoy carving things up in close combat, and even if they did, they still always (as any pirate should) weigh their own lives against the risk and what's at stake. If it's a particularly valuable soul that can be taken down best in close combat? Sure, the warrior will charge. Is the soul going to kill you either because it's a better shooter or because it's close combat oriented and it's faster than you? Sure, the warrior will charge. But any warrior with half a brain would (and should be able to) sit back and shoot from safety while his fellow warriors take the risk roaming closer to the enemy, if he sees the possibility.
.

I must say I agree with this though.
To say that all dark eldar prefer to kill up close is purely opinion and takes away any kind of individuality the Dark Eldar have.

Im sure there are alot that like to kill with blades because its personal or something but Im sure their are some who find it delightful and exhilirating to take headshots and blast their enemy from afar.

Souleater
16-10-2009, 12:05
If dark eldar didnt need slaves to keep their economy going then they would never leave Commaragh, they'd stay in the streets and kill each other.

My point was that they could breed their own slaves. Then they wouldn't have to leave The Big C.

However, I think they rather like the added violence, terror, etc that they get to inflict by working as pirates rather than 'cattle breeders'.