PDA

View Full Version : Daemons of Chaos - The Weakest Link!



Eternus
07-10-2009, 09:50
Correct me if I'm wrong - quickly if possible, because that way my embarrassment can disappear into obscurity with as few people noticing as possible - but the Daemons army is reputed to currently be the most powerful army available. Now it may be possible to construct an army that that is a nightmare to take on, but surely the army must have weaknesses?

Instead of the usual community gripe about all the overpowered units and rules that litter the Daemon book, how about we try and list the army's weaknesses - there must be some!

If this goes well, we could turn the spotlight on other top armies - VC's? Dark Elves? No army is invincible - even that boy could be taught to find the chinks of every suit of armour!

So come on then - who can tell us about..........Daemons!

Ultimate Life Form
07-10-2009, 09:55
Do you mean inherent weaknesses or things that Daemons are weak against? In the latter case, I want to recommend my trusty Engine of the Gods which is especially devastating against Daemons.

Other than that, everything that can bypass Ward Saves is probably a good counter.

Eternus
07-10-2009, 10:12
Do you mean inherent weaknesses or things that Daemons are weak against? In the latter case, I want to recommend my trusty Engine of the Gods which is especially devastating against Daemons.

Other than that, everything that can bypass Ward Saves is probably a good counter.

I mean both I suppose - are there any inherant weaknesses in the Daemons army, and what units or weapons work best against them? I imagine some armies will really struggle against them, and others may have easy access to counters.

The fact that they are pretty much all naked must be a down size, especially if they start getting personal about anatomy. Their self esteem must suffer terribly.

Ultimate Life Form
07-10-2009, 10:14
Well, they must be one of the most expensive armies out there, so outnumbering them should be easy.

Sadly, this doesn't count for much nowadays...

Eternus
07-10-2009, 10:18
Well, they must be one of the most expensive armies out there, so outnumbering them should be easy.

Sadly, this doesn't count for much nowadays...

Especially when most of them cause Fear as well, which counters one of the main strengths of the VC and Tomb Kings armies. At least most enemies should get the +1 combat res against them for outnumbering, and Daemons are unlikely to have much rank bonus if they are expensive, so maxing out on these bonuses when fighting them should help.

Briohmar
07-10-2009, 10:27
The fact that they are pretty much all naked must be a down size, especially if they start getting personal about anatomy. Their self esteem must suffer terribly.


Inherrent weaknesses in the Daemons do exist, such as the majority of the core troops are T3, but this is countered by being unbreakable, and having a 5+ (which I never seem to make) ward save. The shortage of hard hitting units also seems to be a downside, but again this is offset by the abilities the units gain when accompanied by heros. If you look at an individual daemon unit, you will find weaknesses to them. That being said, there are so many ways to build the Daemons that you can compensate for [nearly] every weakness.

I play a weak daemon army, but what I lack in hard hitting, I make up for in speed and flexibility. I field 5 units that can move 20" per turn, two that can move 12" per turn, and one that moves 8". when I add in some of the lesser gifts, such as 25 point banners, my army can be particularly devastating against shooting units and warmachines. I have two hero characters that can kill heavy cavalry, and one that has a great magical battery. With this list, I can fairly easily deal with most of the fast armies, and with gunlines, but I bounce and die against combat heavy.

Other lists do very well against combat oriented forces, but get shot to pieces by shooting heavy, or magic heavy. The question is really are you playing a rock, paper or scissors.

Eternus
07-10-2009, 10:53
The question is really are you playing a rock, paper or scissors.

So the Daemons can do well against almost any force if they are tailored correctly, but you couldn't necessarily take the same army against a variety of opponents and be successful - so it seems it may be down to the relative experience of the commanders - the ablility of the Daemon player to tailor to the force he is fighting against, and the ability of the opposing player to recognise the build of his own army that would cause the Daemons the most problems.

Fenrir
07-10-2009, 11:01
Whats the bet will quickly degenerate into a standard "broken daemons" one?

Anyway - Empire can rip through daemons like theres no tomorrow. Lizards have a good variety of choices to deal with them too.

Grupax
07-10-2009, 11:12
basicly you can't name one thing that's not in their book
-unbreakable, ItP, shooting, magic, anvil units, fast moving units, cheap flyers, hard flyers, heavy cav, anti magic... they only got to pick.
Basicly there's only weaknesses in the list are those the player puts in :p
(not saying they're broken or anything ;))

Anyways, I've always liked playing against them, (though sometimes a bit like playing pingpong with one side of the table up)

Eternus
07-10-2009, 11:18
basicly you can't name one thing that's not in their book
-unbreakable, ItP, shooting, magic, anvil units, fast moving units, cheap flyers, hard flyers, heavy cav, anti magic... they only got to pick.
Basicly there's only weaknesses in the list are those the player puts in :p
(not saying they're broken or anything ;))

Anyways, I've always liked playing against them, (though sometimes a bit like playing pingpong with one side of the table up)

But from what has been said, the list needs tailoring, so although pretty much everything is avaliable, it wouldn't work all in one army. It sounds like maybe a balanced army, like the Empire, might be the best approach to dealing with Daemons - maybe I should put my Inquisitor's hat on?

Zilverug
07-10-2009, 11:22
Anything immune to fire is immune to anything Tzeentch.
Anything flaming is the bane of Nurgle regeneration.

Loads of attacks (whether magical, ranged or close combat) will help against all daemons, especially the T3 ones.

oCoYoRoAoKo
07-10-2009, 11:25
Youve got it just about right there Eternus. You can make a generic daemon list that will do well (just like any other army, albeit slightly moreso). Its only when players start taking one of the top 3 silly lists (and by that i mean slaanesh LD bomb, BT, and Kairos lists) that they get out of hand. However, these lists. whilst very hard, are also waay far from unbetable.

Un-heralded, most core daemon units really are rather flimsy (T3 and no armor, only a 5+ ward), and have a hard time sticking around in a war of attrition. Being fearless also is somewhat of a double-edged sword. there is no fleeing from enemies for a counter-charge, and it makes it harder to bait out units.

I think the hardest thing about daemons is that unlike other armies, they have the potential and tools to do everything well, but to do so, they have to specialise and cut back on other aspects ~ this is where, as an opponent you have to take advantage.

For example, recently, i have been prepping for the UKGT with my cheese-fest Slaanesh LD bomb army (Keeper, masque, flying herald+LD banner, flamers, horrors, seekers, furies). Now, my magic is decidedly good with 5 level 1-2 mages thanks to the horrors/herald and the keeper, and shooting isnt bad with the flamers. However, i was playing lizards (based around slaan,1 engine, sarus, temple-guard, skinks, sarus cavalry and tetto-ecco of all people, so not the hardest list out there).

The reason i was beaten was due to good tactics on the part of my opponent (good deployment~ refused flank with a solid core so hard to get around and flank/rear-charge), nice charge blocking with skinks and a complete splatting in the magic phase (HOW MANY COMETS!!).

Cy.

Eternus
07-10-2009, 11:33
Ok, I have a solution to fixing Daemons (or any other army come to that) players that go for the kind of lists that are causing their opponents grief.

At the club that I sometimes play at, we agree the points value of a battle we are going to fight, but we don't mention which army we are using. This forces us to either go for a balanced list, or tailor to a specific job and hope to hell that we've gone the right way, otherwise we're struggling.

How about trying this?

oCoYoRoAoKo
07-10-2009, 11:57
thats pretty much the way we play it anyway. Usually, people just turn up with whatever armies they have with them and the matchups are made from that.

Cy.

Eternus
07-10-2009, 13:20
thats pretty much the way we play it anyway. Usually, people just turn up with whatever armies they have with them and the matchups are made from that.

Cy.

And does this reduce list tailoring?

oCoYoRoAoKo
07-10-2009, 13:40
To some extent, yes. As most of my gaming group has 2-3 armies to call upon, and most of the time, army lists are already written up (to reduce the time taken to get a game in), you cant be entirely sure which army you will be against. It helps also that more often then not, we dont even know which players will be in the store.

This kind of 'blind' playing has alot of appeal as you never know what you are going to play when you go in.

It has lessened somewhat of late because everyones trialling for the GT, but i expect things will be back to normal in a couple of months. On the up-side though, the amount of cheese going around means that games are never really one-sided because every army is as bad as the rest.

Cy.

Eternus
07-10-2009, 14:00
On the up-side though, the amount of cheese going around means that games are never really one-sided because every army is as bad as the rest.

Cy.

I suppose that is a form of balance as well.

fubukii
07-10-2009, 14:58
has said before each daemon unit has a different weakness. I have been playing daemons for a while and i will generally tell you things i worry about as a daemon army.

-Lore of light (level 2s with lore of light can be a bane to almost any daemon unit, especially if i dont have the banner of sundering, which 95% of my lists dont)
- spells that dont trigger MR. Comet can be a deadly spell vs daemons especially those flesh hounds and flamers.
-Units with lots of attacks or alot of armor. Its tough to beat unit in combat if you cant kill them, flesh hounds are only str 5, so vs 2+ or 1+ saves their active cr is basically half.
- Shooting of any variety. Rxb are great vs non skirmishing daemonic units (minus 4+ ward horrors and pb). Cannons are great vs our big things or our multiple wound models (hounds).

the rest is dependant on the type of list. Generally though EOTGS rock doc lists.

GuyLeCheval
07-10-2009, 15:13
The Skaven plague spell is also the bane of most core units, cast it on a unit without MR, like horrors or Deamonnettes, and watch it spread on the Khornate ones. Works well mostly of the time. Screaming bell can alos be a good counter if you roll 13...:evilgrin:

cabera
07-10-2009, 16:18
I play DoC and I find weakness when I play against mobile units with alot of shooting like wood elves. You have mobile units yourself but you will quickly notice that you are lacking in armour here. Your core units are very expensive even though they have ward save which everyone seem to think is such a big deal. Sorry but you will start to feel a bit weak with all core units except nurglings having a toughness of 4. Sure you can have hearlds and so on to boost with regen but overall this is the weakness of DoC.

On many tournaments with restrictions they often nerf DoC so you will also be lacking in total unit numbers. Best solution to that is to completly skip your greater deamon and go for heralds and more units.

I did that and had a lot of success finishing 6th in the tournament.

The last thing I that is the weakness of DoC are our lack of getting scroll caddies cheaply and you can not duplicate your spellbreaker pick so 115p +25 for one spell breaker aint that nice. Sure people go with pink to get spell deff but they often nerf thouse in tournaments aswell.

Eternus
07-10-2009, 16:37
See? The DoC are sounding more manageable with every post - thanks to everyone that has contributed. Anyone wanna try making a different army feel inadequate? Dark Elves perhaps?

Phazael
07-10-2009, 16:57
Light shooting and cheap CR are the banes of DoC. Aside from HE, who have numerous other advantages against them, no army out there should ever have anything less than a 2-2 numerical advantage against DoC. If you know how to manage a movement phase and exploit this, you should always do well against DoC. The only units that require specific tools to beat are Flamers and LD bomb Slaanesh.

Einholt
07-10-2009, 17:06
Right.... because the Bloodthirster can be quelled by general strategies.

oCoYoRoAoKo
07-10-2009, 17:27
Right.... because the Bloodthirster can be quelled by general strategies.

not helping much are we :rolleyes: actually, once you actually analyse what it can and cant do, the BT can indeed be beat by 'general strategies' as you put it.

for example:

BTs dont like static CR. Sure the thing can fly, but with clever positioning of units you can either a. force it to attack the front or b. get it to charge something else so that it ends up in a strange facing ready to be countercharged. Remember, it still has a frontage and flanks like any other monster so its charge targets are restricted to what it can see in its front arc, and the spaces it can fit into. So anything front-on with high enough static CR will be able to atleast draw with it: in combat, issue a challenge with your champion. he dies, giving +6 to the BT (1 wound + 5 overkill). in return you have static 5 (3 ranks, banner, outnumber) plus whatever else you can throw in. You only need 6 to beat it thanks to musicians etc and even if you do loose, it will only be by a small amount so its not likeley for you to flee.

After that it has to test on its leadership or TAKE WOUNDS. Also, its now stuck there in combat with a unit ready to be flank charged by supporting units. See, the thing is with the BT (and daemons in general), is that it can dish out serious damage in combat but once it starts loosing, things go downhill really quickly.

Also, its nothing a couple of cannons cant kill :P

Cy.

Einholt
07-10-2009, 17:46
Yes it is true I did not help much but my post was meerly responding to the fact the BT was excluded in no special things needed to beat it.

Cannons being special, but I do advocate this method, its how I kill BT's

I really don't see how you are rationalizing it to be so easy to out maneuver a flying monster such as the BT, this force him to the front idea works only if you have a death star or are willing to turn all of your units to face him. If you do not he will simply pick the one he can flank. If you do turn them all then I'm sure you have considered that the rest of the Deamon army will just sit there watching your flank while you fight their BT in the front.

Agreed once they start losing things go downhill quickly... much like the case for all nonstubborn things....

Most of the suggestions here operate in a vacuum with a lack of reponse from the DoC player, clever positioning against a static BT would work, but not one that flies, his mobility is what makes him so deadly. Not to mention that they can simply pick apart the rest of your army and ignore your blocks while you spend time making sure he does not get a flank on them. The moment you turn from him to worry about the rest of the army facing you, Oh look who decided to show up, our old friend the BT, from 20 inches away from the clever positioning.

To contribute to the discussion I think light shooting as mentioned is needed, volume of shots to get through their ward and the toughness is weak. Things like cannons, and anything you can get that will hold such as stubborn/unbreakable things will go a long way towards defeating Daemons if you can get them to fight those things. But notice how this does not really translate into every armies capabilities or a fun game? You aren't playing to play you are playing to beat Daemons specifically.

Agoz
07-10-2009, 18:18
They can't flee from charges, so there is that. I'm playing ogres, so there isn't much I can do.

BigbyWolf
07-10-2009, 18:59
They can't flee from charges, so there is that. I'm playing ogres, so there isn't much I can do.

Get him to charge a unit of 40+ Gnoblars (under the leadership bubble of you tyrant), then stand and shoot...

(If it was the Bloodthirster you were referring to...)

Maoriboy007
07-10-2009, 20:11
There are set demon lists that can do well against any army. For example, a Base demon army could be a LoC or BT backed up by core horrors , flamers , & Fleshhounds with a Herald of Khorne in it. You still have points for more characters and units to suit your game plan, but this base setup has fairly good odds against any army.
High artillary/gunline armies have a decent chance against it if all things go well, and depending on what else the Demon player has (furies for example). The list is as balanced as the player wants it to be.
By the way, hoping for a BT to lose combat is pretty slim, he can easily do 7 wounds to almost any unit out there. Dragon Armour is the usual protectio, but I'd prefer killing blow on a BT any day.

Agoz
08-10-2009, 23:54
Get him to charge a unit of 40+ Gnoblars (under the leadership bubble of you tyrant), then stand and shoot...

(If it was the Bloodthirster you were referring to...)

sharp stuff can't kill a bloodthirster, it's toughness 6, and therefor immune to strength 2 sharp stuff, the only greater deamon you can harm in that way is kairos I believe.

w3rm
09-10-2009, 01:54
Daemons dont do well in protracted combats except maybe plague bearers. Lots of CR and multi charges does the trick usually. On GD, other fliers. Its easy to say "cannonnspwndaemonlolzers!" but in reality a good general withh keep his BT until his furies or other fast untis can take 'em out. Other large fliers such as dragons have a much better chance of pressurin him into screwing up. try to pick apart the daemon army before taking on the BT or other GD unless he is an immediate threat. Dont waste your time trying to kill something you can't.

Dranthar
09-10-2009, 05:03
Hmm, so how can a goblin army take advantage of a Daemon armies weaknesses?

From what I can tell, the biggest advantage goblins have over Daemons is sheer numbers. Along with cheap fast cavalry/snotlings it shouldn't be hard to divert anything that doesn't fly and hit them in the flank.

Cheap artillery means you'll win the shooting war, forcing him to come to you. The only problem in that department is flamers. Any idea on how best to deal with them? Right now all I can think of is shooting and magic.

No expendible units means that fanatics are a real threat.

And obviously, the Tricksy Trinket would work wonders against their ward saves.

Psychology is an issue. It's very rare that you'd be outnumbered by a fear-causer but there's still the issue of making charges. I guess the best way to get around that is utilising squigs and giants for your hammer units. Speaking of which, giants should do quite well against daemons on account of the minimal shooting (flamers aside :rolleyes: ).

A plague Bearer unit with herald would be a very tough nut to crack, doubly so with no access to flaming attacks. Using the Iron Nashas for Killing blow would help but other than that, I'd be tempted to divert and ignore the unit.

Speaking of which, O&G magic has the distinction of being able to single out enemy models...like heralds. So Nibblas ring, and Mork wants ya (if vs. a Nurgle Herald) would both be quite handy to have.

Right now, Flamers and the Blood Thirster seem somewhat insurmountable vs. goblins. All I can think of vs. them is magic and shooting...maybe fanatics vs. the blood thirster. I'm also very unfamiliar with the the Slaneesh Siren build, so no ideas on that either.
Any other thoughts?

Vermin-thing
09-10-2009, 07:55
Under the new army book I can see the new SaD (Skaven slave army of Doom) army doing quite well Vs a BT. If you can mange to make sure that the BT can only charge your blocks of slaves, you can them tarpit him with 30+ units. PWGs would work wonders if you put them in between the slave units.

Freman Bloodglaive
09-10-2009, 10:28
Blood Thirster against an Arch Lector with a hand weapon (take that obsidian armour) gorgon shield, holy relic, heavy armour, barded warhorse and van horstmann's speculum.

You get 2 (reduced to 1) strength 4 WS 4 attacks, my guy has blood thirster stats. This shouldn't take too long.

w3rm
09-10-2009, 14:54
Well VhS is pretty much the anti-anything close combat killer. For killing flamers in goblins only thing I can think of is magic and/ or fanatics should do fairly well.

Eternus
09-10-2009, 16:12
Well VhS is pretty much the anti-anything close combat killer. For killing flamers in goblins only thing I can think of is magic and/ or fanatics should do fairly well.

How many points is a Bloodthirster? Can I buy 2 Giants for the same cost? If so, how about a bit of Stubborn, Ld10, Immune to Terror tag team action?

BigbyWolf
09-10-2009, 16:50
sharp stuff can't kill a bloodthirster, it's toughness 6, and therefor immune to strength 2 sharp stuff, the only greater deamon you can harm in that way is kairos I believe.

Pity...I must still be traumatised from having my Warboss on Wyvern minced by them in my first game against Ogres...

Is there a Gut-Magic spell that boosts strength, or can you not cast gut magic on Gnoblars?

Enigmatik1
09-10-2009, 17:07
There is a Gut Magic spell that boosts strength by 1 iirc and no Gut Magic spell may be cast on Gnoblars as they all specify Ogre units.

Gnoblars don't count as units even though they're in the Ogre army.

w3rm
10-10-2009, 03:00
How many points is a Bloodthirster? Can I buy 2 Giants for the same cost? If so, how about a bit of Stubborn, Ld10, Immune to Terror tag team action?

Yeah because I'm gonna let my 20" flier get charged by your M6 Giants...At the same time? Sorry but that's not gonna happen. Fliers pick their battles. fact of Warhammer. So nice plan in theory but in reality not gonna happen.

EDIT: If you are talking about flamers they will make mincemeat out of your no armor save giants. So again nice plan but better in theory.

calebdonnelly
10-10-2009, 05:47
for example:

BTs dont like static CR. Sure the thing can fly, but with clever positioning of units you can either a. force it to attack the front or b. get it to charge something else so that it ends up in a strange facing ready to be countercharged. Remember, it still has a frontage and flanks like any other monster so its charge targets are restricted to what it can see in its front arc, and the spaces it can fit into. So anything front-on with high enough static CR will be able to atleast draw with it: in combat, issue a challenge with your champion. he dies, giving +6 to the BT (1 wound + 5 overkill). in return you have static 5 (3 ranks, banner, outnumber) plus whatever else you can throw in. You only need 6 to beat it thanks to musicians etc and even if you do loose, it will only be by a small amount so its not likeley for you to flee.


Also, its nothing a couple of cannons cant kill :P

Cy.



Not to pick, but aren't you counting on the DOC player to play bad in order for that to happen? If you were the DOC player, would you let your BT fall into that trap? I doubt it, maybe at first, but after a few games? No.

calebdonnelly
10-10-2009, 05:59
How many points is a Bloodthirster? Can I buy 2 Giants for the same cost? If so, how about a bit of Stubborn, Ld10, Immune to Terror tag team action?

A geared BT is between 500-550 points, a bit high maybe, but the impact he can have is well over 2x giants. He is alot harder to kill for every army(all comers lists idea), and can roll over his points cost with much less tactics involved.

I am kinda at a loss as to how to deal with him effectively myself... It's been a long time since I played(think back to Nagash days), and recently have been thinking of WOC(I wanted DOC, but changed my mind on reading the WFB forums), or Wood elves, my wife is gonna play the army I don't choose(actually, she is choosing the army I choose, as she says that must be the better army :rolleyes: ) anyway, I think I could deal with it ok as Wood elves, but as WOC.. am so torn, I either have to go cheese Magic, or suffer horribly on an allcomers leaving out magic and going combat lord/heros

w3rm
10-10-2009, 13:20
Actually WE are one of the worst armies to deal with large monsters. After BoC.

Agoz
10-10-2009, 16:00
There is a Gut Magic spell that boosts strength by 1 iirc and no Gut Magic spell may be cast on Gnoblars as they all specify Ogre units.

Gnoblars don't count as units even though they're in the Ogre army.

Plus, sharp stuff isn't strength of user, its just strength 2, no way to boost it.

vinny t
10-10-2009, 16:20
I'm a Khorne Deamons player and I've easilly played over 50 games with them. I can say that my Bloodthirster has survived around 49 of them. The main problem with killing the Thirster is the fact that I get to choose where I want him to go. So as a rather experienced player, I won't fall into many of your traps. Which is why the main way to kill it is to do the unexpected. Flee with big KotR unit with a hero, setting him up for a countercharge by more KotR and (maybe) some peasents. Flee with Chosen block if you feel that killing the Bloodthirster is that important. Most armies have at least one unit that is pivotal to their victory, so by using that unit as bait I probably won't see it coming.

And then there's always DoW cannons.

PeG
10-10-2009, 20:27
It depends a bit on the daemon list but lots of shooting is usually a good start especially with poison. Fanatics can also be good, immune to flaming attacks, having flaming attacks yourself, magic/magical standards, items that ground flyers.

Zeuy
11-10-2009, 08:30
Plus, sharp stuff isn't strength of user, its just strength 2, no way to boost it.

Actually, being thrown weapons, sharp stuff IS at the strength of the user. The problem comes in that bullgorger (I believe that is the +1 str spell) only affects ogre units.

Zilverug
11-10-2009, 15:25
As I've seen a 600 point Bloodthirster killed by 60 points of goblins several times over I can safely say: static combat result can kill big daemons.

Agoz
11-10-2009, 16:58
Actually, being thrown weapons, sharp stuff IS at the strength of the user. The problem comes in that bullgorger (I believe that is the +1 str spell) only affects ogre units.

Theres no rule saying throwing weapons have to use the strength of the user, and in fact, the stats for sharp stuff are " range: 8'' Strength: 2 2X multiple shot, thrown weapon" As it doesn't say Strength: As user, it cannot be improved by boosted strength.

for a throwing weapon that doesn't use the strength of the user, look no further than warpstone throwing stars, and poison wind globes.

fubukii
11-10-2009, 18:22
movement spells can be great vs bloodthristers

Vanhels
Unseen lurker
THe wolf hunts
Not hard to catch a flying monster if you can move twice :D ( i cant count how many times vanhels skeleton units have got ino combat with my thrister)