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Kurisu313
07-10-2009, 09:33
A space marine aspirant starts recieving his implants at about age 12. And if I remember correctly, he's finished by about age 18, when he gets the black carapace. I'm gonna try and dig out the old article on the implants later.

When does he become a scout? How many implants does he receive before he is ready? I'm fairly sure that he doesn't need the black carapace to be a scout, but does he receive that only when he's ready to don power armour, or does he simply get it when he's ready for the procedure, and continues to be a scout until he gets promoted?

Any help on the above questions would be appreciated, I'm trying to write some fluff, and want to get the details straight.

LexxBomb
07-10-2009, 09:39
technically he would be a scout even before the first operation to implant the new organs.

Urza
07-10-2009, 12:36
Depends on the Chapter - For example, in the Space Wolves it is the veteran Wolves that go on to become Scouts as they prefer being 'lone wolves' rather than fighting in a 'pack'.

However the general rule for most Chapters is that recruits are usually pre-mid teens, and that after a period of psycho-indoctrination, they are put on active duty in the Scout Company in between implant operations. This allows them to gain battle experience and also helps to root out any weak links that have made it this far.

The final operation is the black carapace implant. Once this has been done and the various info-jacks/interface sockets have been drilled into it, the recruit is fitted for a full suit of Astartes Power Armour and becomes a full-on Space Marine.

Karhedron
07-10-2009, 14:53
In Ian Watson's "Space Marine", the Scout phase came a little later. Only when all the implants were completed did Aspirants become Scouts. They spent an indeterminate amount of time in the Scout Company until their veteran sergent deemed them ready. In the afforementioned novel this was quite quick as main characters hijacked a renegade Emperor Titan on their first mission and proceeded to maul a cohort of Warlord Titans which were supporting a planetary rebellion. They were promoted straight to Marines for the act.

Of course this is old fluff and much has changed since then. However I suspect that aspirants do not enter the scout company until their implants are finished (or nearly finished). If you look at their stats, they have S4 T4 of an enhanced Marine. Their augmentation is probably nearly complete, even if their training is not.

Kurisu313
07-10-2009, 15:00
Having a quick look a the order of implants, I noticed that the first three, implanted at the same time, give the basics for what a marine is. Increased strength, toughness and endurance. So even at that point they'd be deadly opponents for a regular human, but not any more skilled.

Karhedron
07-10-2009, 15:02
True but those implants enhance future growth, they do not act instantly. It takes months (if not years) for the enhanced growth to become apparent. Aspirants don't come round from their first implant operation suddenly looking like Mr Universe. :D

Kurisu313
07-10-2009, 15:21
True but those implants enhance future growth, they do not act instantly. It takes months (if not years) for the enhanced growth to become apparent. Aspirants don't come round from their first implant operation suddenly looking like Mr Universe. :D

Of course, but I'd wager after a year or so, they'd be a fair size. And by that time they'd be ready for the next implants, which induce extra blood clotting and improve blood flow.

The next (sixth) implant allows for the hypnotherapy. I'd think that once they started that, they'd be ready for battlefield roles, if only in a limited way.

Askil the Undecided
07-10-2009, 15:56
Hello we're talking about the genetic future of a SM chapter here!

They aren't putting their future into battle before they've been trained fully remember it takes 15 years to cultivate a mature geneseed and another 6-7 to fully intergrate it with a host then another 15 years for his proegenoid glands to mature. All in all if a scout dies that's 20-odd years of genetic development coming to a dead end.

It's something more along the lines of:
Aspirants - Training - (Implants - Training x20-ish)- Initiates - Training - Implant monitoring - Training - Hypno-indoctrination - Training - Hypno-indoctrination testing - Training - Scouts - Promotion - Marines.

Basically SM can't afford to lose marines who are younger than 35 years old. (assuming implantantion began at 12 and took 8 years.)

The Devourer
07-10-2009, 16:12
Well It depends on the chapter as already stated some chapters ( SW and BA ) Use scouts as elites but I think thats because of the style those armies use to fight.

In Codex chapters I would say that they become space marines, join the scouts then are promoted to wearing power armour. I only say this as the stats for scouts are the same as marines and I don't think any human hower trained could reach those levels.

As for loosing marines however careful they are they will always loose some, this is a war after all. But even the new marines are very different from new IG soldiers, they shouldn't really be viewed as being weak as they are still capable of beating enemy troops.

The scout squads give them some battle experience but are mainly used to see a soldiers strengths and weakness, so when they get power armour they may join devastators or assult squads.

SimpleSquid
07-10-2009, 16:35
@ The Devourer: I'm sure now that all marines start off in the devastator units then move onto assault/bike, then tac squads; they get a feel for shooting, then assault, then join the all rounders (or stay in something like jump squads if they are really good at it). At least in the new SM codex. Could be wrong, since I don't have it here to check

Edit, of course that would be for codex chapters.

Felwether
07-10-2009, 18:41
@ The Devourer: I'm sure now that all marines start off in the devastator units then move onto assault/bike, then tac squads; they get a feel for shooting, then assault, then join the all rounders (or stay in something like jump squads if they are really good at it). At least in the new SM codex. Could be wrong, since I don't have it here to check

Edit, of course that would be for codex chapters.


God I hate the new codex... That system just doesn't make any sense! Surely a marine who has finished his scout training would be placed in a tactical or reserve tactical company to hone his skills before being placed in a devastator/assault company based on the skills he shows?

The whole "Ok you've completed your long range combat training so now we're going to stick a rocket on your back and send you off to get killed by the enemy at arms length" thing just doesn't fly with me...

As for the scout question, I always got the impression that a new recruit wouldn't see active combat until the training/enhancement process was fairly advanced.

trigger
08-10-2009, 02:12
In the ragnar books , he does not leave fenris for 10 years odd after being selected ...
There are 19 imlants in the average marine (some the full 20 some slightly less) each one doing thing to the body that should not be done.
You have to take into account recovery time , training etc etc .
Some plantes chapter recruit from are feral so they may not know what a fire arm is.
Each scout is a crack shot , a master of close combat , a master of stealth and movement.
They must be compitant enough to think for them selves in tough situations , last for weeks/months on there own behind enemy lines.
Thos would take years of training to achive.
The only thing stopping them being full blown marines is experiance.
My two penny's

NightrawenII
08-10-2009, 10:17
What everyone said.

BT Neophytes get last implant (ie. Black Carapace) after or shortly before promotion to the Initiates.

Bitey
08-10-2009, 11:49
God I hate the new codex... That system just doesn't make any sense! Surely a marine who has finished his scout training would be placed in a tactical or reserve tactical company to hone his skills before being placed in a devastator/assault company based on the skills he shows?

The whole "Ok you've completed your long range combat training so now we're going to stick a rocket on your back and send you off to get killed by the enemy at arms length" thing just doesn't fly with me...

As for the scout question, I always got the impression that a new recruit wouldn't see active combat until the training/enhancement process was fairly advanced.

Seconded, I just put on my 'Bitey Brand Fluff Goggles/ Earplugs Set' when GW comes up with garbage like this, if I ignore it then its not there!

Kurisu313
08-10-2009, 13:37
Seconded, I just put on my 'Bitey Brand Fluff Goggles/ Earplugs Set' when GW comes up with garbage like this, if I ignore it then its not there!

But the new fluff is brilliant! It makes perfect sense for space marines to train to become generalists.

Even if GW change the fluff back, my chapter will keep doing it the current way.

pookie
08-10-2009, 14:29
God I hate the new codex... That system just doesn't make any sense! Surely a marine who has finished his scout training would be placed in a tactical or reserve tactical company to hone his skills before being placed in a devastator/assault company based on the skills he shows?


it makes perfect sence.

1st thing to do is learn how to shoot ( devestator )

2nd thing is how to fight ( assault )

once you have become proficent in both these two aspects, you then go on to become a Tactical Marine.

any Scout that showed a apptitude towards shooting, may stay as the sqds heavy wep, or move to the dev sqds for the company, and it would be exactly the same for assault marines too.

Bitey
08-10-2009, 15:20
But the new fluff is brilliant! It makes perfect sense for space marines to train to become generalists.

Even if GW change the fluff back, my chapter will keep doing it the current way.

Well its hard to debate this really as its largely a matter of personal preference, needless to say, to my mind it is completely nonsensical to train with the specialist units before 'specialising' by joining the basic grunts (I know there's nothing particularly basic about tactical marines but within the context of a chapter, thats what they are).

It doesn't happen in the real world (with the limitations of real world comparisons which I'm perfectly aware of)- you don't get Napoleonic voltigeurs or grenadiers trying to get good enough to join the line companies, you don't get paratroopers recieving extra pay and training so that they can be good enough to graduate to the infantry.

The point of specialists like assault marines and devatators is that they comprise marines who have a prediliction (or specialisation) for one particular form of combat. In order to have developed this speciality they have to have had extensive combat experience in which it has become apparent to themselves and their sergeants that they would be paricularly suited for this specialised role. It just doesn't make sense to have your vital long range firepower in the hands of marines who it might turn out aren't particularly suited to blowing up tanks with a lascannon but would rather be chainswording foes to bits...

Quite a good analogy, although far removed from the battlefield, lies in education. You don't start 5 year olds off on Quantum Mechanics and String Theory so that they can then learn to specialise in the big 'tactical marine' umbrella that is 'science'. You built them up from the generalised stuff bit by bit, with a few lies to children of course to oil the hinges and you work up to your degree level stuff.

As I see it only makes sense to move from the generalised to the specific with regards to space marine training. I mean think how much variety scout combat doctrine involves- Sniping, Close Quarters (shotguns), Hand to Hand, Infiltration, Booby Trapping, Reconnaissance, Mobile (Bike) Warfare, airborne insertion (LS Storm) they're hardly starting from a 'specialised' position, are they?

pookie
08-10-2009, 15:24
Bitey, you missed the fact that Tactical Marines ARE the specalists!

The Devourer
08-10-2009, 16:09
Bitey, you missed the fact that Tactical Marines ARE the specalists!

No they aren't

Against normal armies they are elite but tactical squads are not the elites in a marine army.

In an age when technology is revered, rare and difficult to repair why would they give a squad of initiates heavy weapons or jump packs.

Another example is if they are fighting a battle agianst a tank heavy army why wouldn't they give half there soldiers lascannons if they are able to use them.

Specialised means good one specific role if a marine has great aim why would you put them in a assault squad where they could die much easier.

This topic is arguable as the fluff is varied. I know I read somewhere (maybe an old SM codex that it goes Scout -> Tactical -> whatever they are best at

pookie
08-10-2009, 16:19
No they aren't

Against normal armies they are elite but tactical squads are not the elites in a marine army.

In an age when technology is revered, rare and difficult to repair why would they give a squad of initiates heavy weapons or jump packs.

Another example is if they are fighting a battle agianst a tank heavy army why wouldn't they give half there soldiers lascannons if they are able to use them.

Specialised means good one specific role if a marine has great aim why would you put them in a assault squad where they could die much easier.

This topic is arguable as the fluff is varied. I know I read somewhere (maybe an old SM codex that it goes Scout -> Tactical -> whatever they are best at

i totaly disagree with you, because they specialise in Everyting, they are expected to go forwards, expected to stand off, expected to stand there ground.

Devs dont go charging into combat or hold objectives do they?

Assault marines also dont hold objectives or try and out shoot the enemy do they?

Yet Tactical Marines do all this and more. Thats why they are the specilists of the chapter.

remeber Marines are not conventional troops, so shouldnt be tagged as such.

LexxBomb
08-10-2009, 16:42
i totaly disagree with you, because they specialise in Everyting, they are expected to go forwards, expected to stand off, expected to stand there ground.

Devs dont go charging into combat or hold objectives do they?

Assault marines also dont hold objectives or try and out shoot the enemy do they?

Yet Tactical Marines do all this and more. Thats why they are the specilists of the chapter.

remeber Marines are not conventional troops, so shouldnt be tagged as such.

Pookie your wrong (as far as I can see it, no offence). Comming from a military history background I would have to say that Tacticle marines are your general infantry... your average grunt needs to know how to tacticly FLEXIBLE... infantry assigned to an Artillery Corp are trained to fire their big guns more effectively just as the SAS are trained for Close Support and Close Assualt combat. Give you a real life example - a squad of general infantry will generaly be equiped with an infantry support weapon (Quite often a SAW) and probably either a grenade launcher or a Anti armour weapon (heck the Bazooka was invented to be a fire and throw away weapon). You might even get a sniper or sniper team per 2 or more squads depeneding what their objective is.

You are confusing Veteran Marines with Tacticle marines... Tacticle marines are generalists and do not specialise in anything... Veteran marines also do not specialise in anything but are highly skilled in all forms of combat after serving in probably all of the formations.

Progression should be (which is what it was in 2nd - they should have reread the codecies before doing an other one)
Scout
Tacticle
Assualt or Deverstator
Sergent *(if they show command abilities)
Veteran
Vet Sergent * back in Company 2-10
Terminator
Commander (or Chaplain with no more progression in this line)
Commander of 1st Company
Chapter Master/Commander

Col. Dash
08-10-2009, 17:39
Every chapter is different. Look at the Red Scorpions, they join the chapter at year 1 and train and are indoctrinated starting then growing up in the chapter.
It makes more sense to me that they start as scouts before the black carapiece is added and then move onto a tactical squad. Anyone who shows real promise in any one area early might get bumped into a specialist squad. But for the most part I would think they go into tactical squads from scout squads.

Bitey
09-10-2009, 09:31
Bitey, you missed the fact that Tactical Marines ARE the specalists!

Others have made perfectly good explanations as to why this is wrong but to give my own take on it, the pitfall that you (and whoever it was that wrote the SM Codex) are falling into is to some extent simply one of a misunderstanding of language.

To be 'specialised' is to 'devote oneself to a special area of work' you cannot be a specialist at everything, that is simply an oxymoron.

Assault Marines and Devsatators are specialists becuase they are 'specialised' for one specific military role- Close Combat and Fire Support, respectively. Thats not to say that is all they can do, by my reckoning they would likely have spent decades with the tacticals before progressing so a devastator would still be a fearsome prospect in CC and an assault marines is still a damn good shot.

madprophet
09-10-2009, 11:15
Well, first you have mommy and daddy sign you up. You then learn the Space Marine oath and law and your chapter master signs off. You then get a nifty badge at your next... oh, wait, that's Boy Scouts :D

Seriously, a Space Marine scout is a marine in training who hasn't received their final implant (the black carapace) yet. Space Wolf scouts are an exception to this - being specialist scouts, they will remain scouts for their entire careers.