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Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 00:40
Hi all.
After seeing alot of Dark Eldar threads recently it go me excited and then depressed when I remembered we probably still have a couple of years to wait for a new codex.

I have been into 40k since I was about 12 and bought a white dwarf, I learnt everything I know about 40k from those magazines and still buy them today every month no matter what its about.

My question is simple, in my time I have seen all the armies except for DH, Necrons and WH codexes upgraded at least once and Space Marines 3 times.
Dark Eldar get nothing.

I have only seen 1 Battle Report with Dark Eldar in a White Dwarf.
We get no new models and I keep hearing hurtful rumours that DE will go the way of the Squats or Zoats.

My question is simple, why has it taken so long, wouldnt it make more sense to upgrade all the armies equally before moving onto an army which was upgraded not long ago.

Please answer.

noobzilla
08-10-2009, 00:44
It wouldn't from a business standpoint. Marines sell, and thats what GW likes, is selling little toy soldiers, so in order to get people to buy these toy soldiers they will make new rules for them which get people excited about buying them.

Dark Eldar, Necrons and DH don't sell as well as some of the other armies and therefore won't get an update as soon. As sad as that is, because I'm sure that with some work they would get plenty of sales.

Lion El Jason
08-10-2009, 00:51
Dark Eldar have 2 issues:

1: Terrible models, they need a totally new full model range AND new stuff AND plastics of more stuff AND options...etc. Basically it's a huge project so will take up most time.

2: The DE army can actually be very competitive. Yes, the codex overall sucks, but its still a powerful army and so it could easily carry on with no update for some time, unlike, say, necrons who have an old codex and their army sucks.

And as noobzilla said, marines HAVE to have a release each year. Marines out-sell every other army, product range and even paints & scenery... all put together.
Their releases keep GW open!

Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 00:52
Dark Eldar, Necrons and DH don't sell as well as some of the other armies and therefore won't get an update as soon. As sad as that is, because I'm sure that with some work they would get plenty of sales.

Well thats what I thought, yeh know "you gotta spend money to make money"
Maybe thats their plan, bring out an entire new mini range and an awesome codex after waiting for so long.
Imagine the money they will make, I know when it comes out Im buying it straight away and starting a 10 000 point army "mwah ha":evilgrin:

Seriously I will buy them, as long as there are alot of plastics.

Necrons would also rake in some money with a new mini range "the only ones I actually have problems with are flayed ones and Pariah" and a new codex should get more money.

This is a reason I REFUSE TO BUY SPACE MARINES,.
I love them like every other army and have the codex to read because Im a fluff nut but I think if I dont buy the minis, thats just a little less money they make from marines.

Raibaru
08-10-2009, 00:52
Well to go on Noobzilla's post, because he's right. It's still poor business. Dark Eldar don't get the attention other armies have because they were new, the models weren't even remotely impressive, and they had next to no backing from GW.

So you have 2 real ways to approach it. Let them die off and never support them (what GW did) but then don't question why no one plays them. Or you support them in hopes that if GW's customers didn't feel like DE would be Squats 2.0 maybe more people would play them.

I know a friend of mine refused to play DE despite liking how they played because he figured they would go the way of the Squats, and for the most part he's right. When did DE come out? 1998? 10 years with a handful of battlereports, fluff entries, and hobby guides all combined that could still be counted on 1 hand?

It's kind of pathetic and GW has no one to blame but themselves for the state DE are in with 99.9% of all competetive lists being identical and such low representation and public events.

Hero adamite
08-10-2009, 00:54
Last year my freind was collecting Dark Eldar and 1 local independant retailer and 1 GW store both said DE have been discontinued and they were re-doing the army. They should be released within the next year i would believe.

Tokugawa100
08-10-2009, 01:00
I heard that too.
And Im really hoping its genuine because Ive heard stuff like that all the time.
But Ive heard alot about next year so hopefully "fingers crossed":)

TheBigBadWolf
08-10-2009, 01:07
Dark Eldar have 2 issues:

1: Terrible models, they need a totally new full model range AND new stuff AND plastics of more stuff AND options...etc. Basically it's a huge project so will take up most time.

2: The DE army can actually be very competitive. Yes, the codex overall sucks, but its still a powerful army and so it could easily carry on with no update for some time, unlike, say, necrons who have an old codex and their army sucks.

And as noobzilla said, marines HAVE to have a release each year. Marines out-sell every other army, product range and even paints & scenery... all put together.
Their releases keep GW open!

The Dark Eldar also suffered from the worst started box set I have ever seen, the 3rd edition box came with 20 DA warriors 10 SM and a land speeder, who the hell thought that would be a balanced start to 40k armies, especially since DA were brand new at that point. Im not suprised people were put of from them from the start with that.

megatrons2nd
08-10-2009, 01:09
I hope soon. Dark Eldar was my first army. It was also the only army I never got to work for me, and the only one I never loose against. I switched armies several times before settling on Tau. I recently picked up Eldar, but have that itch saying to go back and get the Dark Eldar to work(I hate failing).

The Marines being the best selling army is a self fulfilling prophecy type deal.

1: They get updated the most so have to sell more because you can't use 10+ year old Codeciis, plus the new toys that they come with.

2: They are pointed to whenever a new player wants to get into the game.

3: Chaos marines can be kit bashed off of loyalist marine stuff.

4: There are more marine army variant Codeciis doubling if not more the use of the models.

5: They are included in almost every starting box that has been released.(betcha' it counts)

6: Ill figure this one out in a while, but don't you think the above is enough?

Lion El Jason
08-10-2009, 01:18
The Dark Eldar also suffered from the worst started box set I have ever seen, the 3rd edition box came with 20 DA warriors 10 SM and a land speeder, who the hell thought that would be a balanced start to 40k armies, especially since DA were brand new at that point. Im not suprised people were put of from them from the start with that.

That's true too. It was particularly badly balanced and the army was nothing like the way Dark Eldar played!

megatrons2nd has a point but figures do not support it. Since the staff buyout (1992 ish) we've had good info on sales and how they are affected in the public domain. It's the other way around, Marines sold well so they got more focus and so they sold more... but its a positive re-enforcement exactly as you describe but it started because marines sold well, not because they printed more books.

Look at chaos for a similar thing or undead (In warhammer, but then necrons in 40k) for an example further back.

megatrons2nd
08-10-2009, 01:28
That's true too. It was particularly badly balanced and the army was nothing like the way Dark Eldar played!

megatrons2nd has a point but figures do not support it. Since the staff buyout (1992 ish) we've had good info on sales and how they are affected in the public domain. It's the other way around, Marines sold well so they got more focus and so they sold more... but its a positive re-enforcement exactly as you describe but it started because marines sold well, not because they printed more books.

Look at chaos for a similar thing or undead (In warhammer, but then necrons in 40k) for an example further back.

Where do you go for that information? How far back did it go? If it doesn't go all the way back, then it could be as I described. However, I am willing to concede the point that it may be just a better seller. Although it is still the first thing GW staffers and many game stores point to when you start to play 40k.

IcedAnimals
08-10-2009, 01:29
I can guarantee that in japan Tau and hot nuns with guns will be high selling models. But japan is not exactly their highest source of income.

Dark eldar would probably be pretty good cash there as well. I did remember seeing that they want to increase sales in japan. Well a new dex for any of these 3 armies will do it.

Lion El Jason
08-10-2009, 01:41
Where do you go for that information? How far back did it go? If it doesn't go all the way back, then it could be as I described. However, I am willing to concede the point that it may be just a better seller. Although it is still the first thing GW staffers and many game stores point to when you start to play 40k.

That's true too, even if it didn't start that way, the fact that they have 5 books and a huge model range now will keep them well ahead in sales and GW staffers are obviously going to keep perpetuating the cycle.

It was right at the end of RT that the staff buyout happened.

Nezmith
08-10-2009, 03:32
I've always been surprised that GW didn't just announce that Dark Eldar, Necrons, and the Inquisition armies were no longer supported.

I'm still waiting for it though. Can't put it past them.

Troah
08-10-2009, 03:54
*Sigh* I wish Space marines never existed...Dark Eldar would then get some lovin'.
My poor space pirates, I wuv them so much. *Sniffle*

Corpse
08-10-2009, 03:59
20 Warriors, two dark lances = 180 pts (1080 pts for 6)
3 Ravagers with disintegrators to move and shoot 12" with everything (360 pts for 3)

AP5 weapons for the guardsmen in mass. Tons of AP2 and AP3 for the rest. 120 bodies with I5 to counter assaults, and way too many BS4 guns. Shoot like marines, numerous like guard with surperior stats...

Going raider force, is much more anti assault throwing a cheap 55pt model in the way of an assault. Just takes two to block 170 orks from moving at you effectively. They shoot them down, difficult terrain ensues. Put two more in the way, great now he needs 8 turns to get into base to base contact when its now turn 3 and rolling to stop the game is in 2 turns from now, with a certain end at 7.

New codex will ruin the perks. Make people buy more models. And make people remember how much they rock, and suck playing against. All in all, they will dumb it down where a 10 year old can understand how to work them without much effort. (like giving the vehicle close combat attacks or something).

Lion El Jason
08-10-2009, 04:04
One of the great things about DE at the moment is they are one of the very few armies that takes practice and skill to play where most just take some familiarity with list building.

If you do learn the actual play skills though they are IMO an overpowered army, very hard to beat with anything. This is more than made up for by the fact that 1 mistake = lose the whole game!

Raphaus
08-10-2009, 04:17
I feel a bit sorry for DE players, you've kept the faith and deserve some love.

Personally I don't like the models and have never been much of a fan of Dark Elves in any form, not even space going pirate Dark Elves. I do miss the Squats though, mad biker Dwarves, whats not to love?

starlight
08-10-2009, 04:38
GW sells and supports what is popular and works their way down the list. DE are among the least popular, so they're at the bottom of the list. :(

However, apparently the wait will be worth it. :)

HK-47
08-10-2009, 06:32
GW sells and supports what is popular and works their way down the list. DE are among the least popular, so they're at the bottom of the list. :(

However, apparently the wait will be worth it. :)

You see, I have never liked that argument because GW "makes" it so that a army is more popular by the way it adversities, expands, and supports it over others. Everything is about marines, they are part of every aspect of the hobby, of course that is what a younger kid is going to start out with when they are inundated with marines related products as soon as they express interest into the game. Even the more popular factions like Imperial guard, Orks, and Craftworld Eldar barely have even half the support that marines have.

GW has created a cycle where in they flood the market with marine related materials, and then only support the most popular products, which will always be marines because they are the most accessible. Dark Eldar could be as popular as regular Eldar if GW would give them at least a portion of the time they spend on marines.

starlight
08-10-2009, 06:50
Of course they could, however GW generally goes with what has worked in the past... :(

They aren't alone in that...or did you miss Transformers 2...? :(

HK-47
08-10-2009, 06:59
Of course they could, however GW generally goes with what has worked in the past... :(

They aren't alone in that...or did you miss Transformers 2...? :(

I'm still trying to forget it! :mad:

The whole policy just slaps of short-sightedness, I think that it's a waste of opportunity and talent to stick to the same thing over and over just because it keeps you in the black. You can only do this to a certain before people lose interest and move on.

At least that's what I think.

ashc
08-10-2009, 07:13
said it before, vicious cycle, feedback loop, blah blah blah... :)

zendral
08-10-2009, 08:35
I wish they would just take the plunge and go forward with it. They might be surprised on how well they sell assuming the models look anything like the artwork in 5th ed.

I have been playing since late 2nd ed. Always a marine/legion player. I love my t.sons, and iron hands, but there is just way too much power armour. I for one would dive headfirst into the new dark eldar if they would just get on with it. I think there may be quite a few buyers like me that would take GW by surprise in DE sales, veteren players that start DE partly for the sake of introducing more non-marine type armies.

Poseidal
08-10-2009, 08:59
I can guarantee that in japan Tau and hot nuns with guns will be high selling models. But japan is not exactly their highest source of income.

Dark eldar would probably be pretty good cash there as well. I did remember seeing that they want to increase sales in japan. Well a new dex for any of these 3 armies will do it.

Actually, as far as I recall I heard that in Japan the most popular army is Space Marines. Chaos seems quite popular as well, from the Japanese 40k sites I've seen.

genestealer_baldric
08-10-2009, 08:59
I surpose its the surpense that annoyes DE players iam sure they would rather one way or another a realise date or the fate they all want to avoid at least they will not be strung along every 5min.

ive only played them twice and they still gave a very good account of themselfs so they can still play allright, unlike other armes that Gw is focusing on. Granted The Nids is a great surpise that made me happy but i still think other races got shafted by it.

Souleater
08-10-2009, 09:14
Well thats what I thought, yeh know "you gotta spend money to make money"

Indeed.

I've got six thousand points of DE waiting to be replaced. I don't think anybody who owns Dark Eldar will want to keep the current models, rather than replacing them with shiney new ones.

Also, there won't be very many people scouring ebay to pick up old figures.

Dark Eldar if given:

1. Proper Fluff.

2. A balanced codex.

4. Good figures (especially a balanced plastic battleforce!)

They are going to sell like hot cakes.

Yes, SM sell well but I'd love to know how well Orks and IG have sold since getting some of GW's loving. I know from my local club and mates that they have bought a lot more of those than more SW's.

Sceleris82
08-10-2009, 09:23
Well honestly, i doubt the Dark Eldars mass apeal.
Space Marines would sell well no matter what, just because they appeal to a broad audience. Dark Eldar is very much a niche faction, and their target audience is much smaller, and since GW is a company which needs cash to survive, even more so in theese times, then releasing niche product that takes tons of work is simply bad buisness.

And the part about SM only being the cash cow cause of the support. Well ofcourse it matters, but its not the prime reason for SM selling well. If you take WoW forexample you could NEVER make trolls the number one poppulation, because the segment they appeal to is way smaller than the human segement forexample.

So i throw my support out to GW, they do what they have to do, though i do find it abit odd with the tyranid codex comming so soon.

Ps: Im waiting for the next =I= codex =)

Lanparth
08-10-2009, 09:23
I would personally love to start Dark Eldar, if they had good models.

As it stands right now, I won't touch them until those models are redone.

Ianos
08-10-2009, 09:36
I would personally love to start Dark Eldar, if they had good models.

As it stands right now, I won't touch them until those models are redone.

Aye, me too and a lot of my colleagues, DE ftw!

Lanparth
08-10-2009, 09:41
Well, I like Eldar.

I like evil.

I like ancient powers (pft, Craftworld Eldar aren't the REAL Eldar...), hence, I like Dark Eldar :P

Metaphorazine
08-10-2009, 09:51
Dark Eldar have 2 issues:

1: Terrible models, they need a totally new full model range AND new stuff AND plastics of more stuff AND options...etc. Basically it's a huge project so will take up most time.

This. A thousand times this. Plus, Dark Eldar need fluff. They really don't have any at the moment.

Updating DE is a squiggoth sized proposition, and whether we like it or not, GW is a business and needs to make money in order to survive. Thus, they have 4 options as regards DE.

1: Scrap them entirely. I don't think they ever actually announce that they have done this (even if they have written DE off as an army all together), as it would **** quite a lot of their fanbase off, and may lead to more people jumping ship to other miniature games, thus impacting sales. This option will hopefully be avoided, despite the financial sense it offers the company.

2: Pour resources into DE in order to update the entire range and fluff in one hit, as the current DE fluff is almost non-existent, and the model range is very visually dated. This would cost far more than a standard army update costs them, and thus is only likely to happen if projected sales would cover it with a significant profit. Of course, this is unlikely. Like it or not, but DE have an almost insignificant market share of the 40k armies, and relying on intangible "oh, I'd buy DE if they updated them" players is not practical marketing sense. This option is unlikely, as it is expensive and offers no guaranteed income for GW, who need income to remain in business, despite the fact we may not like this fact.

3: Do a standard army update. 4ish plastics and 2ish metal character models, and again radically update the fluff as the current codex is woefully lacking in it and making it slightly more expensive than a standard army update, for that reason. This is also not really practical marketing, as they would have a portion of an army looking great, and the rest looking like ass. Also, unlike option 2, they'd be stuck with the same lists of units, more or less, as they'd be relying on the existing model range to a great extent. This is an option they should definitely avoid, both from a profitability and a pleasing-the-fan-base sense. While some armies can languish with a few old-school models (ork trukks, I'm looking at you!), having more than half the list mired in 2e is unforgivable in an "updated" army.

4: The final option is, I think, the most sensible course for GW to take. Simply put, it is to take option 2 but enlarge the time-frame allowed for it, and do it in parallel with existing army updates and releases. This allows GW to amortize the costs, as they still have several army updates dropping and providing income in the interim, and the army still gets revised in full, which may provide them with a large amount of income and will avoid the wrath of fans. The drawback is though, that the models and the codex may not be as cohesive as they usually will in a standard army release, due to the greater time frame involved, but any future releases will be based off a much more solid foundation than the 2e codex. I believe this to be the path they will take with DE.

The upside is that if they're going with option 4, they may already have been doing this for some time, and have DE almost ready to go... How long's it been since the rumour blackout began?

Bloodriver
08-10-2009, 09:53
Space Marines are the signature army of 40k and will always be the top seller. BUT...they need someone to fight against, and being set in a galaxy-spanning SF milleu, that means aliens. DE players have been forced to wait too long. Even if the current codex is still viable in the hands of a good player, the models are outdated and they are becoming one of the rarer armies. In fact, I've never played aginst them. If they don't get a new codex and model range before the end of next year, I'm a bit worried they may be facing extinction. And that would be a real shame. The variety of different armies is one of the things that makes this such a good game. If GW sacrifice this, I feel that would be short-sighted and very much to the long term detriment of the hobby. GW needs to shift the release focus away from expansions like Apocalypse and Planet Strike for a while until DE, Necrons and the Inquisition (I'm assuming that DH and WH will be merged into one next time) at the very least have new Codecies.

Souleater
08-10-2009, 10:04
d
4: The final option is, I think, the most sensible course for GW to take. Simply put, it is to take option 2 but enlarge the time-frame allowed for it, and do it in parallel with existing army updates and releases.

This is what they are doing, by the sound of it.

Juan and Jes seem to have been going back to do a little more on DE in between other projects a good while.

Tringsh
08-10-2009, 10:30
I don't think the argument 'it won't make money' is valid. Let's face it every army that is released gets a load of publicity from GW and we all know it will become flavour of the month. Trust me... if they make it, it will sell.

The Machine 1000
08-10-2009, 11:10
If they are completely awesome as a result of the long development process everyone's pain will quickly dissipate after release.

Metaphorazine
08-10-2009, 11:11
I don't think the argument 'it won't make money' is valid. Let's face it every army that is released gets a load of publicity from GW and we all know it will become flavour of the month. Trust me... if they make it, it will sell.

Of course, but to an extent. They re-do Marines and they can count on the approximately 50% market share Marines already have to buy them. They redo Eldar and they can count on the approx 5% market share they have plus a few more who pick them up from the publicity. DE have almost 0% market share, plus the few more, works out to be not much at all they can count on.

Personally I'm of the opinion that a complete relaunch of DE would do quite nicely indeed, but companies can rarely afford to count on "might happen", especially when the up front cost is as large as a complete relaunch of DE would be. Much more sensible to do it slowly slowly, then have a big splash launch that hasn't cost them all that much, and any sales they get are gravy.

Souleater
08-10-2009, 11:49
Dark Eldar would have a bigger market share if they got support.

In the creative gaming market companies do have to take calculated risks. Heck, Warhammer Fantasy and then 40,000 weren't certainies. It isn't the kind of market where a company can make widgit X and everybody will have to buy it because it is physically useful.

It is very obvious as to why the initial Dark Eldar launch failed to the playerbase. GW must be able to see where they went wrong, too. It is pointless to rake over the coals on that one.

But if GW fail a second time to re-start a race they created in a very rich fantasy universe...it will make them look a bit silly, IMO.

Yet there are still Dark Eldar players out here. Even with ***** models and codex both from last century people still enjoy and play the army.

Heck, over the last decade I've seen many more Dark Eldar than Space Wolf, Tau or even IG armies. However, IG are now much more popular with their new doo-dads. GW supported them and got money back.

People post regular bat reps, tactics, painting blogs, etc.about Dark Eldar as it is. The number of people who play them might not be huge but they do have supporters and that number will soar once GW correct the problems their were birthed with.

Dark Eldar will have the mother of all band wagons.

Lord Damocles
08-10-2009, 12:01
I have only seen 1 Battle Report with Dark Eldar in a White Dwarf.
The Dark Eldar have had more battle reports than Necrons (4), Daemonhunters (2) and Witch Hunters (2) since 3rd edition.

Dark Eldar vs. Imperial Guad
Dark Eldar vs. Craftworld Eldar (Biel Tan)
Dark Eldar vs. Catachans
Dark Eldar vs Craftworld Eldar (Ulthwe Strike Force)
Dark Eldar vs. Tau
Dark Eldar vs. Black Templars
Dark Eldar + Lost and Damned vs. Black Templars
Dark Eldar vs. Tyranids vs. Eldar Corsairs(?) - BFG

Sunyavadin
08-10-2009, 12:11
Chaos seems quite popular as well, from the Japanese 40k sites I've seen.

Really?

Utterly amoral tentacle monsters?

Are popular in JAPAN?

d6juggernaut
08-10-2009, 14:41
Really?

Utterly amoral tentacle monsters?

Are popular in JAPAN?

hahaha you're being sarcastic....right?

Condottiere
08-10-2009, 16:05
It's the conversions and dioramas.

Tringsh
08-10-2009, 17:08
Man can't live on bread alone. If they keep just replacing Space Marines they are going to dig their own grave. They undoubtedly know this. I feel for the Dark Eldar fans and I hope they get re-done soon.

But I lost faith in GW doing good when they got rid of their own forums... what a dark day that was.

massey
08-10-2009, 17:19
Space Marines are more popular than other armies because they appeal to a broader range of people. All I can go by is what I see at the local game store. I've seen new people come in, having never played 40K. They walk by the GW wall, and if they stop to look at something, at least 50% of the time, it's Space Marines. Now that's interesting because the local shop is usually sold out of most marine stuff, so there's not really any more marine stuff on the shelf than chaos, or tyranid, or tau. Most of the "main" armies get relatively equal shelf space. But if two guys walk into the GW section together, guaranteed at least one of them is going to look at marines. The other guy will usually look at Tau, or Guard, maybe Eldar, Chaos or Nids. But sometimes he looks at the marine figures too. And these are guys who usually know very little about the game. Our store has a huge amount of Eldar painted up and on display, including titans, forgeworld superheavies, and just hordes of aspect warriors. Some guys look at those figures, seem fascinated, ask questions, and then when you show them the GW shelves, they walk over to the Eldar, and then look to the right and see Space Marines. Then they walk right past the Eldar and pick up a Devastator Squad or something.

In general, marines have a mass appeal that a lot of armies don't have. They're easy to understand. They're easy to paint. They're a good army. Really, look at the other armies and it's not hard to see why marines enjoy more basic popularity.

-Marines are heroic supersoldiers, defenders of humanity. That's a concept a lot of gamers can get behind.
-Chaos Marines are traitor supersoldiers. In general, an "evil" version of something has less popular appeal than the "good" version. It's a subsection of the marine army.
-Imperial Guard are normal humans, sci-fi versions of various historical armies. They have appeal, but they are also more expensive than other armies.
-Eldar are a mysterious advanced alien race. Aliens are usually less popular than humans, because it's harder to identify with them. That's why Spock is a supporting character, not the captain.
-Dark Eldar are an evil version of the mysterious advanced alien race. Thus, they will be somewhat less popular than their good counterparts.
-Tyranids are alien monsters. They only appeal to people who don't need to personally identify with their army.
-Orks are humorous aliens.
-Tau are typical sci-fi aliens.

You look at that, and there aren't really any armies that can challenge marines as far as mass appeal.

d6juggernaut
08-10-2009, 20:52
let's not forget necrons:T-1000 in space
it's true that SM definitely has the mass appeal to impress people from almost all walks of life. especially kids, because of the wide influence of video games such as halo and gears of war, the whole concept of heavy armored supersoldier with a wide range of crazy guns and cannons interest them greatly.

megatrons2nd
09-10-2009, 02:01
Never cared much for Halo or Gears of War. Probably why I only fleetingly thought of starting a Space Wolves or Dark Angels army. I even had some Wolves Marines at one point, they're gone now but I had a couple. Many of the people I hang out with aren't big on those games either, and most of them don't play marines either.

Nezmith
09-10-2009, 02:06
I'd say that Space Marines are heavily overdone by now.

Just how many games or pieces of fiction can you name off that have "Heroic Super-soldiers fighting in space or a foreign planet environment?"

I'm not going to name them all, because there are far too many, but the Space Marine genre has had it's time to bathe in the spotlight. Humans will always have a preference for playing as other humans, but hopefully we can be a little more creative after the appeal of "Man on steroids wearing a tank" wears off.

Nephilim of Sin
09-10-2009, 04:01
The Dark Eldar have had more battle reports than Necrons (4), Daemonhunters (2) and Witch Hunters (2) since 3rd edition.

Dark Eldar vs. Imperial Guad
Dark Eldar vs. Craftworld Eldar (Biel Tan)
Dark Eldar vs. Catachans
Dark Eldar vs Craftworld Eldar (Ulthwe Strike Force)
Dark Eldar vs. Tau
Dark Eldar vs. Black Templars
Dark Eldar + Lost and Damned vs. Black Templars
Dark Eldar vs. Tyranids vs. Eldar Corsairs(?) - BFG

I think people are forgetting this. Yes, it has been a while since we have seen some DE love, but, it is not like they weren't supported. They were. Loads. During the early part of 3rd, you were choking on Dark Eldar coverage. I still remember the article about painting an army in 48 hours that used conversions since the author didn't have access to any new models yet (meaning the articles was made before the range was fleshed out).

Not to mention that DE had a redone codex made for them to keep them up to date (yeah, it has been a while, but...).

Really, until this year (or was it last), DE had more love and support than Orks did. While Orks did have models redone for their range during 3rd, their vehicles weren't even made for 40K. They were made for Gorkamorka, and just got carried over.

As for the models, they may not be for everyone, but they definitely were some of the best (some) that 40K had at the time. I still think the Raider is pretty sharp (no pun intended...it will hurt you), as well as the jetbikes (but not the battleforce generic ones). The Wyches aren't so bad, and the Incubi are great, hands down.

Basically, as a DE player, while I wish that we would get some recognition, I also realize that DE weren't just simply 'swept under the rug'. They were pushed extremely hard, and were completely fleshed out even before Space Marines were for 3rd.

Souleater
09-10-2009, 08:34
The Dark Eldar codex wasn't redone...they added in a few bits they had forgotten.

The Dark Eldar figures were still poor compared to much of the 2nd Edition range - just take a look at the 2nd Ed Eldar figures that are still in use today!

As to being soaked in coverage....um....I must have missed that :(

Hypaspist
09-10-2009, 08:50
I am holding off buying any Dark Eldar until they get a re-release... My Local Games Workshop store isn't going to know what has hit them when they *do* get re-released.
The reason I am holding off is because I have absolute faith that the codex will be well balanced internally, giving lots of choice and options for how to play, and I just *know* (Disclaimer; I actually know nothing, this is all pure faith!) that the models will be to die for.

so come on GW I have got four figures here with your name on it... step right up!

Bloodknight
09-10-2009, 09:33
As to the Battle Reports: how many of those did they win? The ones that I read featured them usually as punching bags with ridiculous army lists.


They were. Loads. During the early part of 3rd, you were choking on Dark Eldar coverage.

Of course, because they didn't have the range ready when they released the army. I remember playing quite some games without Raiders because there were none. The Orks on the other hand had at least buggies, wartrakks and trukks and all their codex was missing was a weapon table while the DE codex was astoundingly weak even when it was new, and had almost no equipment.


They were pushed extremely hard, and were completely fleshed out even before Space Marines were for 3rd.

Completely fleshed out is a bit of a stretch. At least the SM players could fall back to the 2nd edition books for fluff in the time of no-fluff-pamphlets. Even now, most people have no real picture of what the DE really are (Slaanesh Eldar, aaargh).

Corrode
09-10-2009, 10:28
As to the Battle Reports: how many of those did they win? The ones that I read featured them usually as punching bags with ridiculous army lists.

That's pretty much EVERY White Dwarf battle report though - at least one side (and often both) is constructed extremely poorly.


I'd say that Space Marines are heavily overdone by now.

Just how many games or pieces of fiction can you name off that have "Heroic Super-soldiers fighting in space or a foreign planet environment?"

I'm not going to name them all, because there are far too many, but the Space Marine genre has had it's time to bathe in the spotlight. Humans will always have a preference for playing as other humans, but hopefully we can be a little more creative after the appeal of "Man on steroids wearing a tank" wears off.

I very much doubt the Space Marine trope will 'wear off', just like the 'alien bug monsters' trope hasn't.

Poseidal
09-10-2009, 10:51
But it's shrinking.

What if you're trying to sell kids these days Lurtz when what they want is Legolas?

Fenrir
09-10-2009, 10:55
I remember seeing the DE for the first time not long after they came out. I'd been solid WFB for a while, and the DE models struck me as pretty pony. Never bothered looking at the codex or having an interest in them.

Perhaps when they redo the range and update the book, people will take more of an interest - 'cos that was the killer for me.

Lord Damocles
09-10-2009, 11:05
As to the Battle Reports: how many of those did they win? The ones that I read featured them usually as punching bags with ridiculous army lists.
They completed their objective against the Black Templars, although I can't remember if they actually won or not. The others they lost.

However we have to remember that in early 3rd edition the new army usually lost due to a lack of experience by the player, and the limited range of models available to the studio (in their first battle against Imperial Guard, the studio army only had a single raider for example).
The middle section were mostly close-ish games (against Biel Tan they suffered for breaking one of the golden rules of Dark Eldar which the players had established in the introduction - they opted to shoot rather than just getting up close as quickly as possible). Against Catachans they were limited to using the survivors of the Biel Tan game, and fighting against Catachans in a jungle is usually going to be an uphill battle anyway. Against Ulthwe it was close (and come on - Ulthwe Stike Force was broken as hell).
Since then, the new army always wins and the Dark Eldar armies have been mainly stupidly constructed (the Tau game army was illegal) and/or very unlucky (against the Black Templars with the Lost and the Damned, and Archaon and retinue lost combat to a handful of Crusader Marines).

Nephilim of Sin
09-10-2009, 12:43
The Dark Eldar codex wasn't redone...they added in a few bits they had forgotten.

Sorry, redone was probably a poor choice of words considering how it is used with a codex today (instead of 'new'); However, I don't think that everything they added was 'oops, we forgot this', especially since it took them some time before they released the 'redux' of the codex.

However, to date, I am only aware of that happening with Dark Eldar and Dark Elves (in 6th). I could be wrong, though :D.



The Dark Eldar figures were still poor compared to much of the 2nd Edition range - just take a look at the 2nd Ed Eldar figures that are still in use today!

As to being soaked in coverage....um....I must have missed that :(

Perhaps you did miss that, because they were everywhere. And this was before WD was just an add for their product. As compared to the 2nd edition range, well, no one can argue about the Craftworld Eldar, as those minis that survived are amazing, and probably never need to be replaced. Compared to the other ranges, though? I may get people to hate me, but take a look at the Tyranids. Take a look at the Necrons (which were late 2nd ed. models). Take a look at plastic Orks and Gretchin, the Landspeeder, etc.... Dark Eldar did get the benefit of the new plastic technology, but a lot of races still had to wait awhile to get caught up.





Of course, because they didn't have the range ready when they released the army. I remember playing quite some games without Raiders because there were none. The Orks on the other hand had at least buggies, wartrakks and trukks and all their codex was missing was a weapon table while the DE codex was astoundingly weak even when it was new, and had almost no equipment.

That is correct, they weren't complete at launch. Of course, they were a new army, and this was the beginning of GW starting to do larger splash releases. We didn't have to wait that long to get raiders, although it was a blunder (and I am pretty sure we got them first with the Battle Forces, instead of single boxsets...:wtf:). As for the Orks having vehicles, yes, they did, but as I pointed out, those were carry-overs from Gorkamorka. And we still had to use those lil' vehicles for how long? 10+ years? Sounds familiar.....:p




Completely fleshed out is a bit of a stretch. At least the SM players could fall back to the 2nd edition books for fluff in the time of no-fluff-pamphlets. Even now, most people have no real picture of what the DE really are (Slaanesh Eldar, aaargh).

Sorry about that, I didn't mean 'fleshed out' in the sense of background, but model range. They do still suffer from GW's idiotic decision of 'no-fluff' books, and I don't understand why that was never rectified. The sad thing is, if they are redone, how many people will actually like the new background GW will make for them? I think GW really shot themselves in the foot with that one, because they established an idea of what Dark Eldar are, but it will take a lot of work to flesh them out fluff-wise, to the point where some things will probably be retconned.

All of that being said, I still don't think they are the forgotten stepchild that everyone makes them out to be. It is annoying that we have had to wait so long, but I am almost certain that had this forum been around when DE came out, other players would have been saying the same we are about their chosen army, because this new range was getting all the attention while they were having to wait years to get an update besides the occasional kit that finally was released.

The wait seems even worse because we are now two editions ahead, and other races are getting updated. But, aside from Space Marines, those races have had to wait a long time to, and many have had to suffer from pretty bad models, even worse than some see the Dark Eldar as.

Souleater
09-10-2009, 13:30
I really did mean 'I must have missed it'. I haven't read WD on a regular basis even back then.

But by support I really mean releasing figures, alt army lists - even Orks and SWs got something during their long hiatius.

Dark Eldar...I'm pretty sure they didn't.

I agree that the Eldar figures of 2nd Ed are the best of that edition but even compared to the rest of the 40k plastics at the time the Dark Eldar figures are pretty average IMHO.

What got added to the codex was the vehicle armoury, a sprinkiling of new rules. Compared to the CSM redux at 3.5...it was a very minimal effort.

Nephilim of Sin
09-10-2009, 13:42
I really did mean 'I must have missed it'. I haven't read WD on a regular basis even back then.

Sorry if my response came across as snide, I wasn't meaning to. I was actually starting to wonder if the WDs were different between the US and the UK at the time (can't remember when it happened)....:p



But by support I really mean releasing figures, alt army lists - even Orks and SWs got something during their long hiatius.

Dark Eldar...I'm pretty sure they didn't.

I agree that the Eldar figures of 2nd Ed are the best of that edition but even compared to the rest of the 40k plastics at the time the Dark Eldar figures are pretty average IMHO.

They had all their minis released closely together, and since they were the second army for 3rd, their plastics were bound to suffer. They do work great with the 6th edition Dark Elf plastics, though. They also do suffer like the Dark Elves in that they tried to have too many 'variants', i.e. every forth torso being female, unmasked 'screaming' heads with horrible hair, not to mention the spikey bitz. It made it harder to theme your troops without trading, but unfortunately they are not the only range to suffer from that. Dark Elves have a similar sprue set-up, and even the staple Orcs for Fantasy make it almost impossible to theme your army without massive trading (I want my Orcs to wear PANTS, not an occasional SKIRT...:mad:). Later editions of plastics don't seem to have this issue, though.



What got added to the codex was the vehicle armoury, a sprinkiling of new rules. Compared to the CSM redux at 3.5...it was a very minimal effort.

The 'sprinkling' of new rules, though, also opened up the Wych list, which was completely unavailable beforehand. The Vehicle Armoury may have been what was left out, since we had nothing before, but we also got some new wargear. It was a minimal effort, but that effort did actually add a lot that was needed to the list.

Tooooon
09-10-2009, 15:04
Dark Eldar, Necrons and DH don't sell as well as some of the other armies and therefore won't get an update as soon.

Thing is, I myself love Necrons and always have, but the reason i've never made an army before is because they seem to be wayyy too popular in my local area, so don't really fancy adding to it. Necrons are the perfect starter army, with easy painting for the most part, and quite cheap to make an army as well.

So I don't see how Necrons aren't that popular. Only things negatives I see are lack of conversion opportunities (which I don't agree with since your only limit is your imagination), and crappy rulebook, one of which can be fixed quite easily.

Cadian144
09-10-2009, 15:19
What I dont quite understand from GW is the " yes Marines are popular and the main stay sellers / profit line" but dont they need new things to fight against ??

Most of the games I see now, with the young players more so is its Marine Vs Marine. A few new Orc players, but 90% is Marine, 1-2 Chaos and 2-3 Orc players.

The old dogs, yes have the Tau, Necrons, Eldar but overall very few.

I overheard a younger guy at a game few months back saying " what are Dark Eldar I have never seen any are they new ? ":wtf: Also most chocked with shocked laughter. :p

I mean, yes you do what sells from a marketing standpoint, I understand that. But wishlisting aside it would sure be nice to see lots of shiny new races out on the hunt to give the Marines & Imperium something to fight...besides themselves..:rolleyes:

( so Tryanids and with luck more xenos for 2010-2011 as rumors suggest, are very much anticipated, shame however it takes so long)

MY 2 cents;)

Makiaveli
09-10-2009, 17:58
Hmm if Cadian's experience isn't rare, then maybe a whole new generation (or two!) might be turned on to DE and boost sales?

I just wanted to add my 2 small denomination coins to the comments....

Corrode
09-10-2009, 18:48
What I dont quite understand from GW is the " yes Marines are popular and the main stay sellers / profit line" but dont they need new things to fight against ??

Most of the games I see now, with the young players more so is its Marine Vs Marine. A few new Orc players, but 90% is Marine, 1-2 Chaos and 2-3 Orc players.

The old dogs, yes have the Tau, Necrons, Eldar but overall very few.

I overheard a younger guy at a game few months back saying " what are Dark Eldar I have never seen any are they new ? ":wtf: Also most chocked with shocked laughter. :p

I mean, yes you do what sells from a marketing standpoint, I understand that. But wishlisting aside it would sure be nice to see lots of shiny new races out on the hunt to give the Marines & Imperium something to fight...besides themselves..:rolleyes:

( so Tryanids and with luck more xenos for 2010-2011 as rumors suggest, are very much anticipated, shame however it takes so long)

MY 2 cents;)

Please refer to my signature to understand why you couldn't be more wrong about this.

Bestial Fury
09-10-2009, 19:08
Hmmm interesting thread.

1. I thought that they started on the new minis but had to tank that effort and move on?
2. That coupled with, having to revamp the whole line, and trying to make money during a recession means they will be even more conservative on a niche line.
3. Marines make money, nuff said. They are the base, that allows them to fund niche efforts, but again during a downtime, you want to just make sure you aint coming in red.
4. Along with 3., don't assume that GW will make things on a grand scale because of "fairness", J"ust for fun", or just because folks "SAY" they will buy. These are thinks that will place you in the red, and tank your business. "If you buy, they will make". Now I'm sure they have done the research, and when the time is right they will release the best DE dex you could wish to receive.

Finn
09-10-2009, 20:20
Honestly, I'm more interested to see the direction they go with the fluff. I'm confident the army (including minis and rules) will turn out at least ok, if not great.

But the fluff....I mean basically all we know right now is they're Eldar who pillage and torture and have a thing for psychedelics and amphetamines. But why do they do it? That part is pretty hazy. Obviously they're not Chaos Eldar, and I really hope GW doesn't retcon them into being so, but having some psykers in the list wouldn't be a bad thing. The focus on combat drugs and inflicting pain is very Slaanesh-like...even though they aren't cultists of Slaanesh. There NEEDS to be more about how they split from mainstream Eldar at the time of The Fall, and I'd like some diversification in their pursuit of pleasure/excess/whatever it was the Eldar did to cause the birth of Slaanesh. I mean they had to do more than just torture, be tortured, and get high all the time.

TheEndIsHere
09-10-2009, 20:37
OP this is because GW plays favorite. SM get more money, but thats because GW puts more money towards SM, so they give even more money, vicous loop. IF GW were to put that money towards 40k as a whole, 40k would give more mnoey so GW would ahve more money to spend on 40k.

Imagine this:

Put codex SM, SW (sorry guys), BA, BT and DA (I'd rather have them squated) into one codex, call it Codex Space Marine.

Trippy! but wait, theres more!

Put Eldar, Dark Eldar, Craftworlds, Exodites and Pirates into one codex, call it Codex Eldar.

You following me big guy?

Put Chaos Space Marines, Lost and the Damned, Daemons and Legions into one codex, call it Codex Chaos

And if you call in the next 10 minutes, cause we can't do this all day.

Put Witch hunters, Daemon hunters and Death watch into one codex, call it Codex Inquisition.

Absolutly free.

So for this you get:
Codex Space Marines
Codex Chaos
Codex Eldar
Codex Inquisition
Codex Imperial Guard
Codex Orks
Codex Necron
Codex Tyranid
Codex Tau

That 9 codices. You know what this means? If GW become lazy and only release 3 codices a year, every 3 years, your codex will be updated, which ever codex it is, every 3 years, a TOTAL rotation. The oldest codex now would have been puplished in febuary 2007 and would be coming out in 4 months, no way! You could get a codex every febuary, june and october, gives more time for designers, so bigger project, better rules, better play testing, you count even STILL be greedy, give 1 big codex every year (Space marines, Chaos or Eldar) in june and 2 smaller ones.

That would be awesome wouldn't it?

D-End

Lion El Jason
09-10-2009, 23:36
I'd love it to be honest.

But it can never happen. SM make up more sales than every other army from every game and every other GW product put together.

If GW don't do at least 1 SM release per year they don't make enough sales.

Mánagarmr
10-10-2009, 00:42
OP this is because GW plays favorite. SM get more money, but thats because GW puts more money towards SM, so they give even more money, vicous loop. IF GW were to put that money towards 40k as a whole, 40k would give more mnoey so GW would ahve more money to spend on 40k.

Imagine this:

Put codex SM, SW (sorry guys), BA, BT and DA (I'd rather have them squated) into one codex, call it Codex Space Marine.

Trippy! but wait, theres more!

Put Eldar, Dark Eldar, Craftworlds, Exodites and Pirates into one codex, call it Codex Eldar.

You following me big guy?

Put Chaos Space Marines, Lost and the Damned, Daemons and Legions into one codex, call it Codex Chaos

And if you call in the next 10 minutes, cause we can't do this all day.

Put Witch hunters, Daemon hunters and Death watch into one codex, call it Codex Inquisition.

Absolutly free.

So for this you get:
Codex Space Marines
Codex Chaos
Codex Eldar
Codex Inquisition
Codex Imperial Guard
Codex Orks
Codex Necron
Codex Tyranid
Codex Tau

That 9 codices. You know what this means? If GW become lazy and only release 3 codices a year, every 3 years, your codex will be updated, which ever codex it is, every 3 years, a TOTAL rotation. The oldest codex now would have been puplished in febuary 2007 and would be coming out in 4 months, no way! You could get a codex every febuary, june and october, gives more time for designers, so bigger project, better rules, better play testing, you count even STILL be greedy, give 1 big codex every year (Space marines, Chaos or Eldar) in june and 2 smaller ones.

That would be awesome wouldn't it?

D-End

No, no it wouldn't be awesome.

That is completely unrealistic with the size of your average divergent codex.

So lets say you "stream-line" (this approach works well, ask the Dark Angels) each one to make them all fit, gutting fluff, uniqueness, and over-all "cool' factor to make a giant, bland book that is Space Marines.

That will do absolute wonders for sales I'm sure, adding the fact that they can no longer milk out each 'dex for individual sales with minor miniature backing.

You have killed the hobby, nice work.