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Lewis
08-10-2009, 02:28
It is a truth universally acknowledged that young, new to the game, gamers, henceforth known as Little Timmys get a better deal out of visiting a GW store than experienced gamers do. For them intro games and assembled by staff valkeries, for us nothing but distain and being asked not to use boards, yadayadayada. But what of the products that GW produces themslelves Do the favour Timmy or the Vet?

One could argue, for example, that the prevelance of vargulfs and hydras and what nots are designed to appeal to an impatient child who wants something big and shiny and quick to paint. One could argue that the prevelance of Marine based novels from BL are designed to fulfil an eleven year olds insatiable desire for kool MAreeenz to smash baddies. One could look at marines riding giant wolves and draw one's own conclusions.

Contrarywise one could argue that the Horus Heresy series is quite clearly aimed far away from the 11 year old market and has been a sophisticated collection of writing. One could argue that synergy dependent lists like the recent IG are designed purely with an experienced player and that Forgeworld waxes strong and serves the vet faithfully.

So I reiterate my question: Who is best served by GW's actual product? Little Timmy or the Vet?

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
08-10-2009, 03:15
He who has the most disposable income.

ntin
08-10-2009, 03:36
Why is it you feel some sort of entitlement from Gamesworkshop based on your age or length of patronage? Gamesworkshop is a company that sells a product (well obviously). To be profitable it needs to hook the next generation of veteran players, they need to start sometime. Flashy models or video game like armies are a very good hook for the younger crowd.

loveless
08-10-2009, 05:21
Whoever finds enjoyment in it - regardless of age, gender, race, or income.

Also, "Little Timmy" is something of a slight against the young 'uns - most of the kids I know are infinitely more interesting than the hoariest of vets.

Reinholt
08-10-2009, 06:38
What is this "Horis Heresy" you speak of?

:confused:

Condottiere
08-10-2009, 07:38
This would only concern me if they deliberately wrote the rules in the army books for Prepubescents.

snurl
08-10-2009, 08:41
This would only concern me if they deliberately wrote the rules in the army books for Prepubescents.

This does concern me because 8th edition is supposed to be out next year. It better not read like a grade school textbook or I'm gone.

Fenrir
08-10-2009, 09:18
"Timmys" as people call them, show a lot more enthusiasm than the old vets who sit around moaning about GW, then hit the web and fill it up with the same gripes.

RobC
08-10-2009, 09:29
Perhaps this discussion would fare better if you didn't use a disparaging term to refer to those new to the game. Unless you've forgotten, we all started off as fresh-faced kids knowing nothing about the games.

snurl
08-10-2009, 10:40
Shall we call them the Runtherd? Snotlings? Boggarts? It really doesn't matter what we call them, as long as we know who they are. I think we do.

I think that lately the Gretchins are winning.
Here's an Example: Most hobbyists seem to prefer the newer plastic figures over the old metal ones. Now the plastics are being re-done, with less parts so that they are easier to put together and rank up. Seems to let the vets who thrive on conversions out in the cold, does it not? So much for learning about things like planning ahead or craftsmanship.

RobC
08-10-2009, 10:45
Shall we call them the Runtherd? Snotlings? Boggarts? It really doesn't matter what we call them, as long as we know who they are. I think we do.Yes, it does matter. They're all loaded terms.

How about young gamers, or new gamers? If the point can't be made without denigrating the opposition, your point has little weight.

Tarax
08-10-2009, 10:53
I think that lately the Gretchins are winning.
Here's an Example: Most hobbyists seem to prefer the newer plastic figures over the old metal ones. Now the plastics are being re-done, with less parts so that they are easier to put together and rank up. Seems to let the vets who thrive on conversions out in the cold, does it not? So much for learning about things like planning ahead or craftsmanship.

There are veteran 'gamers', the ones who enjoy the game and like to paint. Not everyone, even veterans, like to convert. So this point is mute.

Thud
08-10-2009, 11:00
Why is it you feel some sort of entitlement from Gamesworkshop based on your age or length of patronage? Gamesworkshop is a company that sells a product (well obviously). To be profitable it needs to hook the next generation of veteran players, they need to start sometime. Flashy models or video game like armies are a very good hook for the younger crowd.

True, but the coin also flips the other way. If I'm in a shop, any shop, and I'm not treated like a king, I'm out the door and spending my money at a competitor. Problem with GW is that I like 40k and I want to keep playing 40k, so my hands are a bit tied.

rev
08-10-2009, 11:01
What would happen if you met a veteran, whose name was timmy and was short?

Condottiere
08-10-2009, 11:03
Does he have a beard?

RobC
08-10-2009, 11:23
True, but the coin also flips the other way. If I'm in a shop, any shop, and I'm not treated like a king, I'm out the door and spending my money at a competitor.I'll settle for someone being affable and genuine. I'd much sooner frequent a local shop, warts and all, than one where the staff have been terrified into displays of false bonhomie.

In fact, I'm the kind of shopper that likes to be left alone until I want assistance. The 'jump on you as soon as you walk through the door' technique that GW shops employ has made me avoid them for a very long time.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-10-2009, 11:49
Here's an Example: Most hobbyists seem to prefer the newer plastic figures over the old metal ones. Now the plastics are being re-done, with less parts so that they are easier to put together and rank up. Seems to let the vets who thrive on conversions out in the cold, does it not? So much for learning about things like planning ahead or craftsmanship.

I assume you are referring to the new skaven, my corsairs and cold one knights have plenty of components. As a veteran and knowing a veteran with a skaven army I think it's a step sideways rather than backward or forward. Some armies need lots of models so they're making it easy to put an army together and fitting more models on the sprues, they did the same with grots and gnoblars.




I would prefer better rules from GW and more vet support, however I'm capable of writing my own rules and making alterations to those that already exist so I've largely given up caring about the published rules.

Thud
08-10-2009, 11:56
I'll settle for someone being affable and genuine. I'd much sooner frequent a local shop, warts and all, than one where the staff have been terrified into displays of false bonhomie.

In fact, I'm the kind of shopper that likes to be left alone until I want assistance. The 'jump on you as soon as you walk through the door' technique that GW shops employ has made me avoid them for a very long time.

Maybe "treated like a king" was the wrong term. I'm like you in the way I don't like the staff following me around trying to sell me stuff I don't want, but on the other hand if do want assistance I don't have the patience to wait around forever before I take my business elsewhere.

finbob
08-10-2009, 12:02
Remember: Timmy is a little lamb with a lot to learn.

Cbeebies, got to love it. =)

Lewis
08-10-2009, 12:08
What would happen if you met a veteran, whose name was timmy and was short?

Obviously I would refer to him as Diminutive Timothy. Completely different.

gabrielstrom
08-10-2009, 12:39
Back to the discussion.

I think GW did well with the starter sets to introduce 'Core Gamers' to the hobby and start them off with simple models to put together and paint and get going on playing. I think the intro booklets lack some work and they could use an experienced and successful teacher/gamer *ahem* to help in this manner.

I also think that while GW do release a range of products for Veterans too, at the moment the in store experience is largely geared around the Core Gamer. There are precious few stores who have a loyal and large veteran community who aren't disaffected and have felt disrespected in the last few months. But I feel this is down to individual store managers and territory managers and not down to the whole company.

In conclusion - in store/on the website Core Gamers are largely favoured but I think the veterans are being thought about a tad more than they used to be.

Bring on the Inquisition.

Suicide Messiah
08-10-2009, 13:11
I find it funny that some vets think they have a legit claim to the shop. All highstreet branches are there for the new gamer. Us vets dont need staff other than to work the till and are totally aware of other places to get our minis (often at a discount).

So far as products are concerned, i think they have a good balance. Obviously they have to push what sells. Thats business. But they also do a lot of cool stuff for vets (space hulk for instance).

Fenrir
08-10-2009, 13:42
True, but the coin also flips the other way. If I'm in a shop, any shop, and I'm not treated like a king, I'm out the door and spending my money at a competitor.

"Out the door and having a moan on the web", seems to be closer to the mark. Your Majesty.



Problem with GW is that I like 40k and I want to keep playing 40k, so my hands are a bit tied.

Tied by yourself. If you are fed up with new gamers at the place where you play, might I suggest setting up a games club. It's not that difficult. I would propose that its not a problem with GW, but with your own attitude - those "Timmys" as you call them are the next generation of gamers. They go, and the wargaming hobby loses a lot.

squilverine
08-10-2009, 14:09
Almost all companies focus on new customers.

I think that us veterans can forget how complex the GW hobby is compared to what most young kids are into.

The intro games serve a purpose of not only showing new comers how the games work, but also that despite the large amount of rules they aren't all that difficult to learn. The amount of rule books and codexes can be very daunting to a new gamer.

It is the same with modeling and painting, we all know how to do this due to years of experience, but how did we learn our skills? Mostly from older more experienced gamers and staff showing us. With the prices of miniatures going up I would feel disinclined to continue with the hobby if I had shelled of 35 for a Valkyrie, was unable to assemble it and then told "sorry I can't help you I am too busy playing a game against a regular" from the staff.

Product wise, to be successful, a company has to offer products the majority of it's customers want to buy. As much as I don't like some of the new models being released there are some which are absolutely beautiful, they had a huge amount of detail and are clearly not aimed at inexperienced painters. At the end of the day who models are aimed at is entirely subjective.

Over all GW do a reasonable job of balancing things out, if you dont like a certain miniature then don't include it in your army, or make your own. One poster argued that GW are cutting back on the options available within there plastic sets, I disagree, if anything there are now more bits to play around with. i have no problem with new gamers getting the lions share of the attention within the stores, it stops the red shirts from bugging me and ensures the future of the hobby.

Thud
08-10-2009, 14:53
"Out the door and having a moan on the web", seems to be closer to the mark. Your Majesty.




Tied by yourself. If you are fed up with new gamers at the place where you play, might I suggest setting up a games club. It's not that difficult. I would propose that its not a problem with GW, but with your own attitude - those "Timmys" as you call them are the next generation of gamers. They go, and the wargaming hobby loses a lot.

Please stop trolling. I've already admitted that "treated like a king" was not the best way of getting my point across. If it's still unclear; when I come into a shop, any shop, not just a GW shop, I have a certain set of expectations to the staff. If they start bothering me and going for the hard sell, I leave and go shop at a competitor. If they completely ignore me as I wander about looking for whatever it is that I need I only have the patience to mill about for ever so long before I leave in favour of a place which is interested in keeping me as a customer. Now personally I don't think this is too much to ask, and I don't see why GW should be treated any differently than any other chain.

As for your second paragraph, I have no idea who you're arguing with, but it's not me. You're free to disagree with me, but please do so on the grounds of what I have said, don't just make stuff up.

Fenrir
08-10-2009, 14:54
Fair enough. GW have a duty to provide a decent service for all customers - young and old - being a retail store and all.

But.........I get treated as less than a Deity, and I'm outta there to spend my money on something else.

Corrode
08-10-2009, 14:55
Shall we call them the Runtherd? Snotlings? Boggarts? It really doesn't matter what we call them, as long as we know who they are. I think we do.

I think that lately the Gretchins are winning.
Here's an Example: Most hobbyists seem to prefer the newer plastic figures over the old metal ones. Now the plastics are being re-done, with less parts so that they are easier to put together and rank up. Seems to let the vets who thrive on conversions out in the cold, does it not? So much for learning about things like planning ahead or craftsmanship.

There is nothing inherently better in having to assemble a Clanrat from 9 pieces rather than 4. Sure, it limits conversion possibilities (though for the vet, they should pose no problems), but how many conversions are you doing on Clanrats anyway? With an army that can consist of 200+ models I for one am not going to complain that those models are slightly easier to assemble.

Thud
08-10-2009, 15:10
But.........I get treated as less than a Deity, and I'm outta there to spend my money on something else.

But see, that was my point. If I'm buying a new TV and I'm not satisfied with one shop, I'll just cross the street and buy there instead. I still get the TV. But GW shops aren't that common. Where I live there's just one shop selling GW products, and the service is abysmal. Ordering over the net isn't exactly an option as I have to pay 25% extra for customs on anything over 20. See my predicament?

Now, I'm not saying that all GW staffers are bad at their job (I was very impressed with the guys at the Arndale shop in Manchester) but just as veterans might be expected to need less from the staff, they're still customers (with bigger wallets than young players) who don't owe GW anything and should expect to be treated as valuable to the company.

Max Jet
08-10-2009, 15:20
Also, "Little Timmy" is something of a slight against the young 'uns - most of the kids I know are infinitely more interesting than the hoariest of vets.

*Joke*Especially the cute little catboy named Ritsuka sitting with his Nietsche Book and his Chaos army in the corner. Definately more interesting XDDD *Joke*

Sorry pal, just a joke we all know you're the coolest and most responspible member here an Warseer. I just couldn't resist.

Hm I cannot say anything for the rules as these do not seem to be that uncomplicated and streamlined because of the little timmies, but because second edition took ages to play, and I myself an someone who gets fond of watching enormous armies on the battlefield (armies I can actually paint with details unlike Epic)

So what does that leave? White dwarf. I too don't think white dwarf looks like it does today because of the little timmy audience, but because the Team responsible for it doesn't really know how to mix advertisement and fun read decently. A WD for children wouldn't have this shiny expensive paper, but would be stuffed with paintings and comic pages etc or more agressive advertisements. The only way I feel GW adresses the rather young costumer is with the attitude in the shop, but since it is much more rewarding for a veteran to play in a club or at home (or a fantasy shop) I don't even bother visiting it any more. of course I think the model kits could have more and smaller parts, but on't forget it is a tabletop game. The models have to be robust and durable. Less parts = More durable. Sometimes designers create cool creatures for the fun of it, like hormagaunts or the Hierophant, but then we all suddenly realize, that they are hard to use in a game, even though they look extremely cool.

Lewis
08-10-2009, 15:22
I would argue that other discussions have shown that GW has a catch and release policy to its young gamers, not fostering players for a next generation but instead fostering the next set of 11 year olds when the 13 year olds disappear. My original point was not to disparage Timmys, I am fine with them having the stores as their hubs and I think people get far too upset about GW store service, but to consider who benefits the most from GW product output, vets or begining players.

Mainly I used the term Timmy because it makes a more eye catching topic title.

Gutlord Grom
08-10-2009, 15:33
Considering the fact that at the local LGS when I first started, it was considered funny for the store owner to make jokes about the store owner to make jokes about taking me outside and beating me up, just to scare me. Keep in mind, I was eleven and he was a good two feet taller than me with a shaved head and a neck-beard.

Good times, good times.

That said, veterans and new gamers can share the hobby shop. It's just that Gw retail stores have a different mind set than the LGS (less threats of being beaten up for one!).

x-esiv-4c
08-10-2009, 15:58
Thud makes some excellent points.
Lets take a closer look at the argument. I walk into a shop, mill about for a whiled. At this point the staff can come over and ask to help out, attack for the hard sell or ignore you. 1 of these is acceptable, 2 will earn contempt. Sure they might lose a sale if you go across the street, big whoop. However, this isn't where it ends. Not only will you be taking your business there but your future business too and by extension a margin of their cash flow. The opportunity cost of lost business becomes a little more important when you look at it over a duration.
I'll find myself going to store-X rather then store-Y because of poor service at store-Y, even if store-Y might have an expanded selection of goods.

spetswalshe
08-10-2009, 16:17
If I'm in a shop, any shop, and I'm not treated like a king, I'm out the door and spending my money at a competitor.

I know he's already asked us not to bring this bit up, but I'd probably go to GW shops again if the staff knelt when I entered and referred to me as 'my Lord'. They could bring in their wives to offer me baked delicacies and if they offended my tastebuds I'd have the manager drag them out of the front door and thrash them in the street.


There is nothing inherently better in having to assemble a Clanrat from 9 pieces rather than 4. Sure, it limits conversion possibilities (though for the vet, they should pose no problems), but how many conversions are you doing on Clanrats anyway?

Actually, I convert every single one, because I'm using them for a Mordheim warband. It does mean I only need twenty, as opposed to two hundred, but it's a lot easier to mix parts for good effect when they are separate; Night Runners are fairly easy to put into a 'diving charge' pose, for example, while with Packmasters (good sculpts but one-piece torso-and-legs) it's all but impossible. And if I you're mixing unrelated parts - a Cathayan model using the banded armour Night Runner torso, for example - it's certainly better to have multi-part models; very few conversions use BfSP models (apart from CDs) or Chaos Warriors, while Empire Militia see use across all the human elements of WHFB and 40k.

Jagged
08-10-2009, 16:59
I believe GW Shops should concentrate more on "Little Timmy" than "Hairy Vet". After all the vet 1) Should know what he/she is doing 2) Can look after him/herself 3) Can run/attend clubs etc.

GW shops do an excellent service training up people new to the game. I put my son through GW's Sunday Morning training sessions at the Bristol Broadmead shop and was extremely impressed. And lets remember that the Vets benefit from this as well as more players are created.

RobC
08-10-2009, 17:07
I know he's already asked us not to bring this bit up, but I'd probably go to GW shops again if the staff knelt when I entered and referred to me as 'my Lord'. They could bring in their wives to offer me baked delicacies and if they offended my tastebuds I'd have the manager drag them out of the front door and thrash them in the street.It's bad enough having to go into a GW store - I don't need them live role-playing at me as well.

yabbadabba
08-10-2009, 18:17
This would only concern me if they deliberately wrote the rules in the army books for Prepubescents.

Codex Munchkins perhaps?

As to more easily assembled plastics, may I remind people of the first Chaos Warrior plastics and, so they don't get left out, some of the older metal Chaos Warriors? You needed a degree in Contempory Design and a Masters in Feng Shui for luck to get those buggers to rank up.

Tohellweride
08-10-2009, 19:44
My local GW used to run a vets night but it was scrapped. Why? Because not enough vets showed up. Now they all complain that its overrun by kids. So basically GW trys to provide for vets but the vets spit in their face. What do they expect GW to do
On a slightly different note when does little Timmy become a vet? After they have played for so many years or when they reach a certain age? I know many younger gamers who have been into the hobby alot longer than some of the older guys. I have even seen some of these younger players giving tips on painting and modeling. I have been in this hobby for over 18 years but can still pick stuff up.
Too often people judge the opponent by their age instead of challanging them to a game and seeing how the story unfolds. Give the younger generation a chance. They are the opponents of the future and without them this hobby will quickly die.

Max Jet
08-10-2009, 20:06
I have even seen some of these younger players giving tips on painting and modeling. I have been in this hobby for over 18 years but can still pick stuff up.

May I remind you all of the young bloods this year? Christ I will never get how such a young boy can paint that extremely well.. I mean.. how old was the winner.. and everyone else? I will never get this, I would LOVE to get painting lessons by some of them.. imagine.. getting lessons from someone who is 8 years younger than me! And I would love it! The younbloods in the Golden Daemon competition are perhaps the best example of even "outperforming the average veteran". I don't have to show pictures of my work, when I was 15 years old. O.k.. I used a brush as thin as a hair, for details, but I had no idea of, layering, highligts, drybrushing, washing, cleaning or any technique other than applying paint as thin as possible.

scarletsquig
08-10-2009, 22:03
I started this hobby at age 9, and I'm now 22.

So, I definitely remember being a little Timmy (one of the quiet ones who preferred to paint, not one of the hyper ADD kids). I had a good time in GW stores with the demo games and stuff up to about the age of 16, joined in the painting competitions and beat people twice my age (was useless at winning games though, still am :) ).

Now that I'm older the GW store doesn't really have much to offer me, but that's fine, I don't expect them to.. there are other wargames clubs and places for me to go to play. Part of being an adult is that you do things for yourself rather than having a specific place for you to go.

Why would I want to suddenly have the GW stores cater for me now that I'm older and deny the next lot of young 'uns the same fun that I had?

If you ask me, it sounds like a lot of people on here want to pull the ladder up behind them now that they've climbed the tree.

GW staff are best described as hyperactive and/or insane (In fact I'm pretty sure the second one is a job requirement ;)), and while that might put off some of the hairy vets, the little timmies love it if the staff have an energetic personality.

MF3000
09-10-2009, 00:01
Agreed with scarletsquig.

"Now that I'm older the GW store doesn't really have much to offer me, but that's fine, I don't expect them to.. there are other wargames clubs and places for me to go to play. Part of being an adult is that you do things for yourself rather than having a specific place for you to go.

Why would I want to suddenly have the GW stores cater for me now that I'm older and deny the next lot of young 'uns the same fun that I had?"

Couldn't have said better.

And about the customer service someone mentioned ... is it that hard to say: sorry I'm just looking, plus I've been at the hobby for x-years.

I do that all the time, and the staff near me knows to an extent to let me be. Sure they'll try to old fashion 'hook in' with the new products, but I know what I want when I go to a store. They feel like they can talk to you if you open up to them that you are NOT a timmy (i.e. potential sales target).

sj

Dangersaurus
09-10-2009, 03:43
Contrarywise one could argue that the Horus Heresy series is quite clearly aimed far away from the 11 year old market and has been a sophisticated collection of writing.

Sorry, man. You lost me there. If another damn character has another damn premonition or dying insight into the future being grim and dark and only consisting of war and flames I swear I'm going to spambomb McNeill, Abnett and co. It's like three times each book, and I've only just finished Fulgrim. There are so many nods and winks I swear the books have chins and eyes. Great fun? Sure. Sophisticated? Bwahahaha!

lanrak
09-10-2009, 09:39
Hi all.
I personaly think GW have artificialy created this 'newb-vet 'divide with thier 'low brow ' marketing approach.

IF GW developed and promoted great games, this would appeal to gamers of all ages.(Like 'good old GW' did during the period of most growth pre PLC days.)

However, GW PLC seem to have decided to target its most 'vunerable' demoghraphic, before they become more aware.

As GW core games are just minature marketing exercises now, GW HAVE to focus on the new customers to keep current turn over.
Most older players gravitate away from GW at some point.(Apparently GW only retain about 20% of thier customers.)

To reset the company to achive long term growth ,(focus on game play as a major selling point, ) would cost GW PLC too much in short term turn over.

By all means buy GW product if it appeals to you and you are happy with the price.

But there are lots of other companies that provide much better value for money.These are more suitable to gamers who have found thier feet.
GW dont want my buisness, so I take it elswhere!

GW is NOT the only company producing product for the tabletop minature gaming hobby.(No matter how much they want you top belive this...:rolleyes:)

TTFN
Lanrak.

jams86
09-10-2009, 15:21
we have to remember that not all new players are children. the vet's night in my store keeps a table open for new players aged 16+ to come in and learn the ropes if they want.

it saves them having to come in on a sunday and learn with the younglings

Master Jeridian
09-10-2009, 17:12
Contrarywise one could argue that the Horus Heresy series is quite clearly aimed far away from the 11 year old market and has been a sophisticated collection of writing.

Perhaps you should read some non-Black Library books.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Horus Heresy series was an interesting read, and it is a step above most of the other Black Library stuff most of the time- but it is not 'far away from 11 yr olds' nor is it sophisticated- it's still Marines chainsawing each other in graphic detail, just every now and then one of them pauses to emo-it-up and have visions of the 40k setting.

Who should GW aim at?

As much as it might grate, Little Timmy- he's keeping the business afloat. Little Timmy rarely has knowledge of the wargaming hobby (as opposed to the GW Hobby) and often is starting from scratch- so will buy whole armies in those few years he sticks around.

The Vet will be knowledgeable of the competition, of other wargames, and of cheaper avenues to get GW stuff. He often also has already bought bulk (when he was Little Timmy) and so will just make small purchases every now and then.

Ignoring Little Timmy to try to appease the Vet just doesn't make business sense.

Lewis
09-10-2009, 19:32
I think that the central conceit of the Horus Heresy series, that an athiest, sort of humanist culture will ultimately fall into superstition and blind religiosity is a more mature concept than many of the other books. Is it Proust? No. Is it aimed at a more mature audience than the other books? Yes. I never said they were pillars of english literature, only that they seemed to be aimed more squarely at adults than early adolescents.

Dangersaurus
09-10-2009, 23:09
Somewhere between Lil Tim and the Vet are the masses of 15-25 year old players/readers, filled to brimming with testosterone and an unquenchable desire for literary power fantasies. The ones who don't spend their Wednesdays down at the comic shop are where BL books are squarely aimed.

Condottiere
10-10-2009, 08:27
Surprisingly, Superhero comics tend to have more depth and literary merit than most BL publications.

eengaming
10-10-2009, 15:27
How many times a year do we have to roast this old chestnut! You cannot swing a dead cat on Warseer without hitting a new gamer vs. old gamer post.

I do think I have something new to add, but I can only lay claim to summarizing someone's previous idea. I occasionally check out Game Overthinker an online video game commentator. Not for commentary on videogames per sae (lol wtf!), but because most of his comments apply to the hobbies I am interested in: wargaming, RPGs, and comics.

Here's the deal. Games are toys. Your wargaming models are toys. When you paint or game with them you are playing with toys. "That is not an opinion, that is a description."

The thing about toys is that to successfully market them, the core market must be dum de dum dum... the young. Any toy company that does not primarily market to the youth is effectively like Oroboros (spelling?). Its market as it ages will simply devour itself and disappear. Want proof. Why do you think the Wii and DS are beating the hell out of Xbox and PS3 (the two machines that market primarily to hardcore gamerzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz lol).

Now I do agree that there is something to be said about balancing that with the needs of long time customers. However, when I lived close to the Philadelphia GW, I was there painting every Saturday and I have to say I was treated extremely well. I was never hard sold, I always had a spot at the painting booth, and even the young'uns tolerated my longbeard grumblings about how the models/painting/goblins were metal/harder/scarier when I was their age.

GW certainly has faults, but I think we vets need to chill. Without young gamers constant influx of cash we may not even have a hobby to call home. Just my two cents.

Lars Porsenna
11-10-2009, 00:32
I think that lately the Gretchins are winning.
Here's an Example: Most hobbyists seem to prefer the newer plastic figures over the old metal ones. Now the plastics are being re-done, with less parts so that they are easier to put together and rank up. Seems to let the vets who thrive on conversions out in the cold, does it not? So much for learning about things like planning ahead or craftsmanship.

I'm going to stop reading the thread right here.

I'm 33. I have been building plastic models since I was 5, more seriously since I was a teen. Something I still do, with far, far greater sophistication and expenditure of money than I did as a kid. And I'm not talking about GW models here, but high end Dragon, Tamiya, etc kits that often become multimedia because of all the aftermarket accessories I buy.

Now that I've established that I'm not a noob to the whole modelling experience I will say categorically I hate it when figures don't rank up. If what is needed to keep them ranking is simpler models, so be it. While having lots and lots of parts isn't a deterrence to me (remember, as a modeller I typically deal with armor kits with 800+ parts at times), but having to number bases, engineer assembly, etc is a headache to me, especially if I'm doing a few hundred figures.

Damon.

Bloodknight
12-10-2009, 08:21
Signed. Especially for WFB there's no real need for fully posable minis with a dozen parts each - if you really use the possibilities chances are that you can't rank them up anymore. Just take Skaven Clanrats - I've yet to meet a Skaven player who doesn't have his rats numbered because they fit only in one way.

snurl
12-10-2009, 12:36
whats wrong with that?

Bloodknight
13-10-2009, 16:59
Most of them hated it ;)