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Your Mum Rang
18-01-2006, 21:43
Hey all. We all want our counter-attacking units to be hard hitting and fast. So I have been thinking of adding some of these to flank/counter charge units that run into my 3 big units of Plaguebearers.

Which units are good for this?

One I am thinking of is Chaos Ogres with Great Weapons but their WS is poo. Would Ironguts be a better choice as these can ahve impact hits to make up for the lack of WS?

How about a unit of 15 or so Furies? These can join any combat I want and add 3 ranks of Fear causing models to the fray and hope for the fear/outnumber combo. (15 PB's and 15 Furies must work well).

Whatcha reckon? Any advice for me?

Pravus
19-01-2006, 11:47
Furies don't get a rank bonus unfortunately so apart from the bonsu from hitting the enemy in the flank or rear there's no advantage. If I were you I'd look at your fast cavalry options. If you've got a daemonic chaos army marauder cavalry are a special choice. With flails and a musician you've got a cheap unit with enough punch and manouvreability to work as a counter attack unit. More importantly, they remove rank bonuses for flank and rear charges.

Your Mum Rang
19-01-2006, 11:50
How about Chaos Ogres or OK Ironguts?

I think Furies would be good to add if only at a smaller unit size so that they can contribute to fear/outnumbering. Bad idea? Should I keep them for warmachines?

So you need to have your own rank bonus to cancel out an enemies rank bonus? (Left my rulebook at home, I am at Uni)

Pravus
19-01-2006, 12:29
Its the fact that all flying units (bar the Bret Pegasus Knights) are skirmishers and that all skirmishers (including beastherds) don't remove rank bonuses for flank/rear charges.

The thing with fear causing is that you need to win the combat first for them to autobreak. A ranked units of daemons has one major disadvantage over mortal ranked units and that's a command group. Without one, you're -1 CR already (from the lack of a standard) and will lose ties due to the lack of a musician. A unit that removes ranks and adds a flank/rear bonus helps compensate for that

e.g. assuming your 20, 5x4 plague bearers engage a unit of 20 Empire swordsmen, 5x4 with full command. Ceteris paribus, they start with +4 CR to your +3. To win the combat you would have to cause 2 more casualties than the swordsmen given that the swordsmen would win any tie due to the musician.

In the same situation with a unit of 10 furies in the flank you would start the combat even with the swordsmen due to the +1 for the flank attack. This still means the combat is decided on wounds caused. Not an ideal situation. Note, in either case a CR victory to you would cause an autobreak because the outnumber check is carried out after the winner has been determined and you will have needed to kill more than them to have won.

If we swap the furies for a unit of fast cavalry there is a dramatic difference. 5 marauder cavalry with a musician in the flank would lead to you starting with +4 CR to the swordsmen's +1 CR; an advantage of +3. Furthermore the marauder musician negates the swordsmen musician meaning noone has an advantage in a tie.

As for Chaos Ogres/Ironguts; they can give you the full advantage of a flank charge but they're not as manouvreable as fast cavalry so the flank charge can be harder to setup. That and they're considerably more expensive.

Your Mum Rang
19-01-2006, 14:24
How about those lovely Mounted Daemonettes? 20" move should get them to the flanks shouldnt it?

So would you suggest Chaos Warriors over my Plaguebearers?

What is the ideal size for a unit of Chaos Warriors? 12 seems a little too small. I'd prefer 15 or 16.

Borthcollective
19-01-2006, 14:34
The thing with fear causing is that you need to win the combat first for them to autobreak. A ranked units of daemons has one major disadvantage over mortal ranked units and that's a command group. Without one, you're -1 CR already (from the lack of a standard) and will lose ties due to the lack of a musician. A unit that removes ranks and adds a flank/rear bonus helps compensate for that

e.g. assuming your 20, 5x4 plague bearers engage a unit of 20 Empire swordsmen, 5x4 with full command. Ceteris paribus, they start with +4 CR to your +3. To win the combat you would have to cause 2 more casualties than the swordsmen given that the swordsmen would win any tie due to the musician.

In the same situation with a unit of 10 furies in the flank you would start the combat even with the swordsmen due to the +1 for the flank attack. This still means the combat is decided on wounds caused. Not an ideal situation. Note, in either case a CR victory to you would cause an autobreak because the outnumber check is carried out after the winner has been determined and you will have needed to kill more than them to have won.


I was under the impression, by the wording of the rules, that a unit has to fear it's enemy for it to be subject to the autobreak rules. To fear your enemy, you must fail you fear test, or it has no effect on you. Am I missing something here.

Baindread
19-01-2006, 16:33
I was under the impression, by the wording of the rules, that a unit has to fear it's enemy for it to be subject to the autobreak rules. To fear your enemy, you must fail you fear test, or it has no effect on you. Am I missing something here.

If you are outnumbered by a fear-causing enemy in a combat and you lose that combat you auto-break. Pretty clear somewhere in the BRB. Can't give a page since I don't have it here at the moment.

Borthcollective
20-01-2006, 13:47
If you are outnumbered by a fear-causing enemy in a combat and you lose that combat you auto-break. Pretty clear somewhere in the BRB. Can't give a page since I don't have it here at the moment.

The wording actually says that "a unit defeated in close combat is automatically broken without a break test if it is fighting an enemy that it fears and it's unit strength is lower than the victorious enemy".

Any enemy has to fail it's fear test to be affected by fear, so overcoming your fear means you do not fear your enemy and thus the rule above you wouldn't apply if you have passed your fear check.

This is on page 81

Neknoh
20-01-2006, 16:47
Actually, no.

Is your unit immune to psychology? No
Do the opposing unit cause "fear"? yes
Is your unit immune to the effects of fear? no
Autobreak.

All units which are not immune to Psychology or fear autobreaks, no matter how much you have suceeded in your fear test, the fear test is only there to check the "level" of fear your unit have from the enemy.

If you were attacked by a very big guy with a baseball-bat, you'd either flee or try and defend yourself in some way, but you would still be afraid of him, if suddenly, there shows up another seven of his friends with varius chains and baseball-bats, youd probably run away, even if you actually controlled your fear in order to fight this first dude, when they are more than you, you run, your'e not foolish.

As for counter-chargers, here's a list.

For charging units fighting Marauders and Warriors:

Minotaurs with Greatweapons
Bloodletters, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers in units of 12 deployed 6x2
Nurglings
Chaos Trolls
Chariots

For flanking units in general without being held back:

Dragon Ogres
Shaggoth
Mounted Daemonettes
Marauder Horsemen
Normal Knights
Centigors
Beastherds (doesn't remove rank-bonus, but gets +1 to CR, meaning they both start with a static 4 instead of 4 to 3)
Furies (though rather used for taking out Warmachines and mages)

And that's your units for you.

Don't take the Ogres, they are far inferior to Minotaurs, remember, Ogre-sized units win combats by causing wounds, not saving wounds

Avian
20-01-2006, 17:00
Any enemy has to fail it's fear test to be affected by fear, so overcoming your fear means you do not fear your enemy and thus the rule above you wouldn't apply if you have passed your fear check.

This is on page 81
Uh, buddy, the section specifically says that it doesn't matter if the test is passed or not. :p

Your Mum Rang
20-01-2006, 17:18
Nice one Neknoh, what do you mean when you say "For flanking units in general without being held back:" ?

Really appreciate the guidance.

Neknoh
20-01-2006, 17:20
It means that if you're going to use Mounted Daemonettes for flanking stuff fighting your footsloggers, why did you get them? That 20" move is there to zoom up to the farmost flank, charge said flank and start rolling through their army

Your Mum Rang
20-01-2006, 17:22
Ah right I'm with ya.

I guess Slaaneshi Chaos Spawn would be a good unit to "back up" those Daemonettes as they charge off and threaten the flanks.

And Daemonettes and chariots would be my pick to assist my Warriors.

Cheers.

MarcoPollo
23-01-2006, 05:25
The spawn won't be able to keep up. You'll get an avarage movement of 10 inches with that spawn. Only half the speed of the demonettes.

Those demonettes are nasty. Fear causing, 2 WS4 St4 attacks each + 1WS3 St3 attack from the mount. Yes 150 pts is expensive for such a fragile unit, but if you can get other things in there with them, like a hero that can also move 20" (demon characters, hero's on steed of slaanesh, hero's with wings) then this can be a very vicious flank attack indeed.