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View Full Version : VC vs TK: how off matched are they?



Shadowsinner
09-10-2009, 00:11
so obviously vampires are very powerful and have been updated recently while tomb kings are still sitting in the dust waiting for their update. what I'd like to know however is how off scale would the balance be if both forces fought one another. Do the Tk have a fair chance of defeating the vampires with decent set of tactics or are Vampires just way too out of league?

O&G'sRule
09-10-2009, 00:17
They can and do beat them, But VC's are more powerful ATM. Simply being able to march is a big advantage, never mind the rest

CraftworldsRus
09-10-2009, 00:19
VC tend to brutalize all but the most well played TK armies in a top-tier environment. Honestly, though, among average gamers, TK have some good ways to put the hurt on Vamps, and one big thing the VC haven't got, a shooting phase.

StormCrow
09-10-2009, 00:20
The tomb kings have their work cut out for them, that much is certain.

Chariots are practically useless against a competant vampire player. Add to that their skeletons are cheaper and their grave guard cost the same as tomb guard but with better armour. And vampires can march and raise their units beyond starting strength unlike their nehekharan brothers. The tomb kings can have an advantage in the magic phase through their relentless incantations however so there's something. And they have superiority in the shooting phase too (not hard).

All in all i don't really like the tomb kings chances but that shouldn't stop you having a good scrap!

w3rm
09-10-2009, 01:58
SSC are your friend here. The ability to march for the same stats and cheaper? It's madness!

Enigmatik1
09-10-2009, 03:24
SSC are your friend here. The ability to march for the same stats and cheaper? It's madness!

Even more friendly than the SSC is the Casket of Souls. Ideally, if I were facing VC (which I never have to), I'd take one of each every single game. Undead, characters aside, universally have suspect LD meaning no Undead player will let the Light of Death go off. This means your other incantations are more likely to no be dispelled. Additionally, the -1 to all casting can be brutal on spam lists who throw one die at spells.

Those two things aside, if you look at the units across the board with the exception of those who can shoot, Vampire Counts have a distinct advantage in terms of the raw power of their units and/or how much they pay for them. Just having Ghouls is huge, as TK has no equivalent. Cheaper skeletons, better equipped Grave/Tomb Guard, zombies to which TK also has no equivalent since both armies have swarms, cavalry that doesn't suck, wraiths, varghulfs, support casters who can actually deal damage, corpse carts, black coaches...yeah, I don't think I need to keep going.

Red_Duke
09-10-2009, 12:56
Bunkers can be a tough nut to crack (although they tend to be for every army) but otherwise a competent TK general can generally kick the unliving hell out of Vampires.

couple of things:

1. SSC's are pretty much useless against Vamps, other than perhaps dealing with the likes of vhargulfs and coaches. They wont win you games however.

2. Chariots are actually very good vs skeletons and zombies thanks to the WS3, and since they are fast cav as well they can often get flank charges into undead units, which is really where you want to be vs vamps.

3. Bone giants are pretty awesome, as unstoppable assault can rip through skeleton and zombie units, plus again he's good at getting flank charges and breaks ranks thanks to being US6

4. Ushabti are also pretty good, WS4 and S6 being very good vs any undead, and scorpions are as always great, especially given their general hunting capabilities

5. If the vamp lord isnt bunkered, a tomb king in chariot unit will kill him 9 times out of 10, given he can always outcharge him with magic. Once the vamp lord dies, the Vamps have as good as lost. Most games ive had vs Vamps have been decided turn 1 or 2 when his Vamp Lord dies to the flail of unpleasantness. Bunkering VC tend to take an extra turn to crack, as you have to line up combined charges from things like bone giants and chariots, and ideally go in once scorpions have popped up to get the second round of combat with the key units like the kings chariot unit.

About the only thing that really slows down the TK is the completely tricked out unit of doom - that of bsb with regen banner in hating Grave Guard with a combat Vamp Lord with nightshroud. Even then it comes down to whether the Vamp can pass the regen saves...

TK outclassed? i think not!

Malorian
09-10-2009, 13:54
When me and the local TK player played it really came down to two things:

1. How I used my wraiths, and

2. How he used his incantations.


If the wraiths could sneak in and avoid things like temple guard then that could cut huge holes in his lines and take care of things like ushabti.

If he did his incantations right then he could smashing into my flank with some chariots and make my ghouls disappear like crazy.

valdrog
09-10-2009, 14:36
With my TKs i once had a game vs VCs where i landed 4 direct hit shots on a unit of GraveGuard and killed them down to the Wight King and one Graveguard...next round he raised them all back up again in no time.

HUGE weakness the TKs have is ,one of the crappiest magic defence in the game, against VCs who have one of the strongest Magic phaces in the game ...is a bad combo.

Vcs can replenish their ranks 20 times faster than TKs can, most of the time TK players will be using Urgency or smite, so our raise dead incantation..which sucks..is rarely used.

VCs is a VP denial army, and TKs right now dont have the punch to get lots of quick VPs, the things that we have that can do it are to expensive and rare.

I love my TKs, but right they are no match vs someone that can play VCs well.

kyinpie
09-10-2009, 15:36
tomb kings can beat vampires, however it will always be an uphill battle everystep of the way and lucky dice rolling! as said above tomb kings have a very limited anti - magic capacity, the casket is a must against undead of all types, the only real time to take the casket IMHO.

i have both armys, and if i played myself, my vamps would win every time i think! even though i play tomb kings more and are my primary army! also if you play a vampire player that knows how to use the army properly, the chances are that the kings will lose, either that are a bloody hard battle!

thats my experience any way, i have beaten good VC players but its always bloody hard work!

ky

Red_Duke
09-10-2009, 16:04
you guys actually find a vampire player gives a stuff about the casket when he uses his general's LD 10 for 99% of his army and it can all be raised back anyway?

against vamps i'd rather just take the bone giant, and possibly a catapult to help keep key units depleted so he's having to spend his magic phase healing them

Biggest key point to beating vamps - hit them as hard and fast as possible! turn 2 is ideal, turn 3 is about as long as you can really risk vs magic heavy though...

combat vamps (ala knights etc) are interesting, although i find they just can't deal with the sheer speed of the TK army, and the king just tends to run around smashing the army up.

Enigmatik1
09-10-2009, 16:08
I'd take the Casket for the -1 to casting for the ridiculous IoN spam, not really to wound models/units. Any damage actually done by the casket are simply added bonus.

As sad as it is to say, the Casket of Souls is simply the best source of magic defense available to the army. It doesn't pack the punch of the SSC or the Bone Giant, but outright causing roughly 3-4 spells per game on average (for me) to fail is worth the points imho.

The Bone Giant should work in theory, but I just see it getting tar-pitted all game given how fast Vamps can get their numbers back up (which is why you take the Casket and hope they fail alot of those 1 die Invocation rolls :D)

Red_Duke
09-10-2009, 16:17
it's all a matter of sending the bone giant in to the right combat, and ideally supported by something so you can just take a unit straight out. Not so great vs Ghouls mind you, but vs zombies or skels he should be able to tank a unit of around 15-20 on his own with some reasonable rolling and ideally a flank charge. Adding a chariot unit to the charge however and you should be able to crumble the unit, as by that point it should be just down to standard for static, which will be countered by the flank. a bone giant and catapult should even outnumber by the end.

i find a lot of vamp players get freaked out by the scorpions, and tend to focus on them - leaving the really dangerous units often free to get those all important charges in.

Malorian
09-10-2009, 18:26
I'd take the Casket for the -1 to casting for the ridiculous IoN spam, not really to wound models/units. Any damage actually done by the casket are simply added bonus.

This and to catch those units not within 12 inches of the general.

Best way to stop chariots from smashing your flanks is to spread out, and when you spread out you move away from the general.

I don't know about other VC players but for my part my wraiths avoid the front and center tomb guard by sneaking around the sides... away from the general...

Red_Duke
09-10-2009, 18:36
i suppose if they spend the game lurking in woods they'd be safe, but the general's 24" charge does tend to make things difficult in terms of getting away from him... still, i suppose if the king is off chasing wraiths, he's not going after your Vamp Lord, which is almost always a good thing!

EvC
09-10-2009, 18:46
If the VC player is using a playstyle where his Lord fights to win the game, then TK are on a good setting, despite an overall weaker army. The Tomb King on Chariot with Flail of Skulls is simply one of the best killers in the game- that is, against armies without S7+ warmachines. Against Vampires that bunker up wholly? A very hard nut to crack.

TK do have lots of virtues though, like Scorpions coming out and going snip-snip.