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Grimstonefire
09-10-2009, 14:55
We know that there are armies that are considered under powered, and there are those that are overpowered. Where is the middle?

Also are there any armies you think are ideally balanced both internally (making almost everything worth taking), and externally (against lots of armies)?

w3rm
09-10-2009, 15:03
Empire and Dwarfs are pretty good. Both armies can be sucsessful and the onlything reall cheesy for dwarfs is Thorek and for Empire War Alter+2 Stanks. Everything is worth taking and everything is useabale.

Condottiere
09-10-2009, 15:05
I like to think that Dogs of War fit into this category.

Avian
09-10-2009, 15:07
Empire and Dwarfs both have reasonable external and internal balance (disregarding the fact that I have only ever seen one type of Empire general and I think I have seen the Dwarf Lord maybe twice).

I'd also throw in a vote for Tomb Kings.

GuyLeCheval
09-10-2009, 15:13
If properly used, TK are indeed in the middle. Bretts, WoC and We/He are on the top of the emiddle, OnG and Skaven (except SAD) and OK are in the bottom of the middle. BoC are just plain bad.

Odin
09-10-2009, 16:41
So basically...

Empire (except for War Altar & 2 Stanks)
Dwarfs (apart from Thorek)
Bretonnians (except for the RAF)

WoC are probably about in the middle, but the internal balance is pretty poor.

Avian
09-10-2009, 17:50
Since when does Bretonnia have good internal balance? I only ever see half the units fielded.

Draconian77
09-10-2009, 17:53
If I recall, Avian created a thread (army power levels) with this sort of thing in mind. The Wood Elves were the prime example of a middle-of-the-road army, with decent internal balance.

Avian
09-10-2009, 17:56
The middle armies were (in alphabetical order) Bretonnia, Dwarfs, Empire, Skaven and Warriors of Chaos.

Of course, that was a thread where people voted what they thought, but I think it gave a reasonable result.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216896

Grimstonefire
09-10-2009, 18:24
I think Empire without Altar and Steam Tank (isn't that just 6th ed??) seems a fairly good middle ground. It includes all the different areas of the game except cannon fodder, fast cavalry and monster gribblies (i.e. light/medium/ heavy infantry, medium and heavy cavalry, mundane artillery, mundane magic (using basic lores), a few monster mounts and limited unusual troop types).

Avian
09-10-2009, 21:16
It does have cannon fodder (detachments) and fast cavalry (pistoliers).

Malorian
09-10-2009, 21:19
I think Empire without Altar and Steam Tank (isn't that just 6th ed??) seems a fairly good middle ground. It includes all the different areas of the game except cannon fodder, fast cavalry and monster gribblies (i.e. light/medium/ heavy infantry, medium and heavy cavalry, mundane artillery, mundane magic (using basic lores), a few monster mounts and limited unusual troop types).

Yup, Empire is a great all rounder list if you don't go crazy with it.

Then again most armies are ;)

Spiney Norman
09-10-2009, 21:25
Empire, wood elves and dwarfs are great choices, Tomb Kings too, but as a warning, its a steep learning curve to getting the best out of them. I'd also put High elves and WoC in the middle as well.

I'll also cast a loud raucous vote for Lizardmen (just don't spam Engines of the gods). The Lizardmen re-write was the best they've done in ages, they took what was a pretty unbalances 6th Ed army and perfectly balanced it for 7th, with the only possible exception of the EotG, nothing is over-powered and everything is usable, just as it should be.

selone
09-10-2009, 21:43
I actually think High elves are a decently done, middle of the road army, but a) some people hate ASF and b) star dragons.

Condottiere
09-10-2009, 22:00
I'm not too sure of that - Silver Helms and to a lesser extent Ellyrian Reavers aren't actively chosen, Core tends to be kept to a minimum.

Avian
09-10-2009, 22:11
And when do you see a Prince on a Dragon other than a Star one? I would not say the HE have particularly good internal balance.

Odin
10-10-2009, 02:02
Since when does Bretonnia have good internal balance? I only ever see half the units fielded.

Questing Knights and the dead knight thing are both pretty useless from what I can tell, but everything else has its place.

And we have a house rule that mounted models with great weapons get +2 on the charge, which actually makes White Wolves and Questing Knights worth taking.

Shiodome
10-10-2009, 02:53
every wood elf unit gets used, and they're about middle in the 'power scale' these days. so i'd say them.

kramplarv
10-10-2009, 07:39
internal balance... VC ftw. DoC. in to a lesser extent, DE.
oh my, those armies are the strongest ones :o I see a pattern in the game development. Newer armybooks don't intentionally are made "better than everyone elsesss" but they are more internal balanced than the previous edition.

That is what creates the superarmies. A good selection of good stuff, where every choice us useful in it's own right. Then the synergies become really awesome :(

oh btw, Empire is TEH middle-army. and probably one of the funniest armies around. :)

sulla
10-10-2009, 08:47
And when do you see a Prince on a Dragon other than a Star one? I would not say the HE have particularly good internal balance.Every army has a few duds though; halberdiers, empire generals, bret questing knights and prophetesses, Dwarven slayer heroes, warriors and longbeards (compared to the special infantry)... HE seem pretty well balanced other than lesser dragons and griffons and silver helms. All the other specials serve their own purposes, eagles and RBTs compete with each other for utility. ASF hero choices competing with the battle banner BSB and mages, star dragon vs archmage. Not too bad. About as close as most armies internally.

selone
10-10-2009, 09:37
Indeed Sulla. Silver helms aren't very good but every army book has lesser choices which aren't taken as often.

isidril93
10-10-2009, 18:02
HE are very good with internal balnce...thats why i have such a hard time deciding on my list :P

Alcibiades
10-10-2009, 18:58
Since when does Bretonnia have good internal balance? I only ever see half the units fielded.

People use all of the Bret units (except Questing Knights), you just don't know it because they all look the same. ;)

brawnyman1989
10-10-2009, 21:34
I think the perfect middle of the road army is the Empire. They can have a presence in all the phases of the game, and can be reasonably effective in those phases as well. Plus, they have very few special rules, (detachments), and only a mild learning curve.

Zeuy
10-10-2009, 21:39
internal balance... VC ftw. DoC. in to a lesser extent, DE.

DoC probably has the WORST internal balance of any army book. Horrors/Plaguebearers compared to demonettes/bloodletters for example. DE also have some problems with internal balance: corsairs, witch elves, executioners, and hags.

Skyth
11-10-2009, 01:30
Empire is a fairly weak army unless you use the nasty stuff (Stank/Cannons). Dwarves are considered lower tiered also.

Mid tier, I would consider WoC, High Elves, Bretonians, Tomb Kings, and Wood Elves.

WoC is fairly well internally balanced (Other than Forsaken). I can see a use for any of the units in there and usually run against a point total/slot limitation rather than a 'That unit sucks' limitation. I have my perfered style of play though.