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View Full Version : Are the Alpha Legion really that evil?-SPOILERS inside



Sons of Alaitoc v.2
10-10-2009, 18:22
I've recently read that pre-horus heresy the Alpha Legion Primarch (Alpharius) was contacted by an alien society known as the cabal, they warned Alpharius that if they remained loyal to the Emperor, the Imperium will win, but over 10,000s of years it will slowly crumble, and Chaos will defeat them, and kill all other races as well. Whereas if Alpharius fought with Horus, Chaos will win, and eventually disgusted by what he had done, Horus would decide to kill every human, but leaving other species alive. So to preserve the universe Alpharius chose the chaos side.

Only there was one problem, the cabal got all mixed up, and the wrong outcome came to being. I think this makes them good, what do you think?

massey
10-10-2009, 18:24
I think the book was crap. I liked the old background better, where Alpharius was discovered and befriended by Horus. By that point in the crusade, the Emperor was already back on Earth, so Alpharius' loyalty was with the guy he knew.

Urath
10-10-2009, 18:36
I prefer the old background, but I like what information we get about the Legion from the book. It certainly wasn't crap, but the reasons for betrayal were.

will564752
10-10-2009, 18:39
We don't know for certain how Alpharius Omegon acted in response to the meeting with the Cabal. There is only implications.

What we do know on the other hand is that Alpharius Omegon had 2 years to prepare for the Heresy, and that Alpharius' character dictated that he wished to be in control of a given situation as much as possible. Aswell as Omegon noting (along the lines of) "Secrey is, as always our greatest weapon". All this combined, leads me to believe that the Alpha Legion played a major behind-the-scenes role throughout the Heresy, and simply didn't just attempt to delay the Space Wolves and White Scars as we were previously told.

Also aside from the Alpha Legion, we don't know the true nature of the Cabal, and whether or not they are actually enemies of Chaos. For all we know they could easily have been agents of Chaos.

Suicide Messiah
10-10-2009, 18:55
Never read the book but this cabal and primarch twins stuff is an abomination. Aweful.

Eetion
10-10-2009, 19:02
Never read the book but this cabal and primarch twins stuff is an abomination. Aweful.

Then read it and then you can comment with a valid opinion and not just hearsay.

I kinda like the idea of the way the AL were represented.
The question you have to ask yourself did the AL do what they did in the interests of the Emperor or did they intentionally orchestrate Horus's defeat so that Chaos can win?
What happened prior to the heresy? Were the AL of one mind, or was there a division within the Legion? The SW didnt make it back to Terra, but the WS did, coulld this be an indication of disagreement within the AL ranks or simply a failure in an objective.

Xisor
10-10-2009, 19:25
Yes and no, OP.

The Alpha Legion are almost the very definition of neutral. They aren't...malicious. They aren't spiteful. They aren't even Chaotic (well, at the time).

They view their allegiance as to themselves. Their agenda is their own. They disagree with the ultimate aims of the Emperor and Chapter 7 of Legion does a fantastic job of illustrating this. The ultimate/final revelations of Legion are almost paltry to this small nugget. The Alpha Legion disagree with the very idea of the Great Crusade. So they're at work doing something else, they're safeguarding the longevity of humanity in the most practical, basic and almost evidence-based way they know.

To that end they're almost anti-idealists. They're realists and they recognise that the choice between Chaos and not-Chaos and anti-Chaos is almost negligible. Chaos is pre-eminent and won't be beaten in the end. To fight against it is to cause a lot of problems for a lot of people.

So, in the end, the Alpha Legion are secretive, arrogant and pragmatic. They'll utilise every and any tool to get the job done, to meet their aims. The revelations of the Cabal were simply a catalyst which advanced the plot. The Cabal thought they'd got the Alpha Legion, but they hadn't. The Alpha Legion were always going to make 'the other philosopher's choice'*, so to speak.

* The philosopher's choice being simply to shoot yourself and thus avoid the act of choosing. The other one is just to do your own thing instead of opting for choice A or choice B as presented.

So there was 'support Horus, save the galaxy in the end' or 'support the Emperor, destroy the galaxy eventually'. The Alpha Legion choose "Naw, let's do what we want to do and support neither of them". Arguably exacerbating the problem, but in the eye's of the Alpha Legion (as outlined in Ch7 of Legion, really: read it, it's fascinating stuff!) they're simply doing as they'd always intended to do.

So, evil? Yes. In 40k now they're evil. They've been corrupted as much as the next person (a little more, in fact), but they've also presented a very reasonable 'alternative option' which is exceedingly grim and almost the embodiment of typical 40k thinking.

It's not a loyal/traitor thing, they never really changed their opinion all along. If the Emperor or Horus payed attention, they may well know this and not be at all surprised. If they didn't or the opinion of the AL as 'traitors' or 'secret loyalists' is widespread, then I don't think anyone's terribly clued up on the AL's philosophy.

In that respect they're really rather similar to the Night Lords. Not exact or even that similar, but there are overtones of the same reasons and thinking which contribute to their actions. An essence of 'not having been 100% behind the Great Crusade as presented' from the get-go.

Mannimarco
10-10-2009, 21:43
alpha legion are bad guys, seriously they are and heres why:

they fought (and defeated) the ultramarines immediately after the heresy (yeah they may have maybe lost their primarch but the did force the ultras to retreat)

they destroyed the loyalist chapter "emperors swords" though these guys have been destroyed by a few different bad guys

they were the instigators of the vraks war, deacon mamon was an alpha legion agent who corrupted cardinal xaphan

Freak Ona Leash
10-10-2009, 21:51
alpha legion are bad guys, seriously they are and heres why:

they fought (and defeated) the ultramarines immediately after the heresy (yeah they may have maybe lost their primarch but the did force the ultras to retreat)

they destroyed the loyalist chapter "emperors swords" though these guys have been destroyed by a few different bad guys

they were the instigators of the vraks war, deacon mamon was an alpha legion agent who corrupted cardinal xaphan

Or, the Alpha Legion could have slpintered into those faithful to their Cabal-stated "loyalist" mission and those who are corrupted by Chaos. Possibly, one faction is led by Alpharius and the other by Omegon.

It sounds almost simplistic enough to be true!

Urath
10-10-2009, 22:05
Or, the Alpha Legion could have slpintered into those faithful to their Cabal-stated "loyalist" mission and those who are corrupted by Chaos. Possibly, one faction is led by Alpharius and the other by Omegon.

It sounds almost simplistic enough to be true!

I always liked the idea that they both, while almost identical, were fundamentally different in some way that caused a little split. It could be that some elements embraced Chaos, and others resisted; remaining in the Imperium, to strike at it while others, like Vraks dude Manni mentioned, were simply corrupted eventually.

Xisor
10-10-2009, 22:12
Though I dislike the convenience of an A/O split, I think it's still an attractive idea. The first Legion split, the last Legion split.

Still, a more detailed and sensible idea would be to have each independent Alpha Legion to 'split' on the basis of whatever they're doing. Truly a Hydra. First 'one legion', then 'two' with Alpharius Omegon, then many with the next ten thousand years of bifurcating.

With this in mind, each cell would be independent. An anti-Inquisition, if you will. Discrete cells with no central organisation, but with massive variance in ideas and techniques between them.

Still, the A/O split is a sensible place for the 'first' split. Indeed, going from stricter mathematics of chaos, including the bifurcation and whatnot, there's an interesting synergy in the ideas!

But that's beside the point.

Vesica
10-10-2009, 23:43
I've recently read that pre-horus heresy the Alpha Legion Primarch (Alpharius) was contacted by an alien society known as the cabal, they warned Alpharius that if they remained loyal to the Emperor, the Imperium will win, but over 10,000s of years it will slowly crumble, and Chaos will defeat them, and kill all other races as well. Whereas if Alpharius fought with Horus, Chaos will win, and eventually disgusted by what he had done, Horus would decide to kill every human, but leaving other species alive. So to preserve the universe Alpharius chose the chaos side.

Only there was one problem, the cabal got all mixed up, and the wrong outcome came to being. I think this makes them good, what do you think?

They chose the lives of Xenos over humans, they are evil.

Either bit of lore you look at they are traitors to the Emperor and the Imperium.

What is it with GW trying to make the traitors seem less evil lately?

BaloOrk
11-10-2009, 00:02
No, they fight for Chaos, they`re not evil.

Malice313
11-10-2009, 01:48
Actually Chaos isn't evil its just Chaotic. It was never insane... it was supposed to be unsane, i.e. its reasoning was supposed to be so far divorced and alien from human reasoning that it seems almost completely irrational.

This is also the reason that despite its powerful nature, numberless allies from the warp and direct divine intervention from its patrons... it never really got anywhere in terms of goals (basically because if it actually came up with any, they very soon changed).

The "Evil" factor is a product of the 2nd ed comic book villains and sculpting era. Unfortunately this simplistic approach is easy for the younger gamers to understand and so it has stuck and grown with them as they grew up.

So now instead of small warbands of extremely powerful beings who are as likely to ally as they are ready turn on each other to further their own power, we have legions of tragic Darth Vader like characters.:cheese:

Sunyavadin
11-10-2009, 02:13
Indeed. Chaos can be furthered by good-intentioned acts just as equally as evil-intentioned ones.

You give a child nice toys, feed it good food, and make sure it is happy, you are in some minute way, feeding Slaanesh. Disease has no malicious intent, it does what any living thing does to survive, but its effects aid Nurgle. Change occurs all the time. A static, unchanging universe is a DEAD one. Thus the very EXISTENCE of ANYTHING AT ALL benefits Tzeentch... When you fight to defend your loved ones, when an Assassin slays a ruthless, brutal Tyrant, when you stand up to the school bully - that is all to the benefit of Khorne.

Chaos is not by nature evil. The people who commit the greatest of acts reinforcing it however, they are. And it is those individuals whose souls become the strongest, guiding forces of the PERSONIFICATIONS of chaos.

guillimansknight
11-10-2009, 02:56
In that case how many minor gods are there?

Sunyavadin
11-10-2009, 03:02
Probably quite a lot. I'd imagine each world probably gives rise to a handful which become powerful enough and have the longevity to be considered minor gods for a brief amount of time, though this may only be as long as a couple of thousand years. Remember, the major powers are the personifications of universal aspects of the nature of existence.

hummus
11-10-2009, 03:02
alpha legion are bad guys, seriously they are and heres why:

they fought (and defeated) the ultramarines immediately after the heresy (yeah they may have maybe lost their primarch but the did force the ultras to retreat)

they destroyed the loyalist chapter "emperors swords" though these guys have been destroyed by a few different bad guys

they were the instigators of the vraks war, deacon mamon was an alpha legion agent who corrupted cardinal xaphan

surely if they fought the ultra smurfs and defeated them that makes them the good guys(who didnt say cool when they kicked the smurfs arses.)

ntin
11-10-2009, 03:15
Alpharius and Omegon are distracting figureheads to keep you from knowing about the real leader of the Alpha Legion their sister, Numia.

massey
11-10-2009, 03:17
Actually Chaos isn't evil its just Chaotic. It was never insane... it was supposed to be unsane, i.e. its reasoning was supposed to be so far divorced and alien from human reasoning that it seems almost completely irrational.

This is also the reason that despite its powerful nature, numberless allies from the warp and direct divine intervention from its patrons... it never really got anywhere in terms of goals (basically because if it actually came up with any, they very soon changed).

The "Evil" factor is a product of the 2nd ed comic book villains and sculpting era. Unfortunately this simplistic approach is easy for the younger gamers to understand and so it has stuck and grown with them as they grew up.

So now instead of small warbands of extremely powerful beings who are as likely to ally as they are ready turn on each other to further their own power, we have legions of tragic Darth Vader like characters.:cheese:

I'm sorry, I'm gonna call bull on this.

I've read the old stuff. I've read the Rogue Trader books. I'm as familiar with Chaos as anyone. They're evil. They've always been cartoon villains. This isn't D&D, with some artificial alignment system that distinguishes between chaos and evil. They sacrifice people to dark gods in exchange for the ability to summon demons of murder. That's evil. End of story.

Sunyavadin
11-10-2009, 03:33
That's like saying all soldiers are evil. They kill people for a living.

massey
11-10-2009, 04:08
That's like saying all soldiers are evil. They kill people for a living.

No, it's not. You're basically comparing John Maclaine to terrorists. Yeah, they both kill people. Terrorists kill innocent people, and John Maclaine kills terrorists. So they're obviously the same. :rolleyes:

ntin
11-10-2009, 04:24
No, it's not. You're basically comparing John Maclaine to terrorists. Yeah, they both kill people. Terrorists kill innocent people, and John Maclaine kills terrorists. So they're obviously the same. :rolleyes:

One personís terrorist is another manís freedom fighter. The real world cannot always be broken down to polar opposite sides where once stands for all things good and wholesome while the other injects HIV into puppies then snaps their necks. Nor is Warfare is something that can be examined or contrasted by morality. It is an ugly thing no matter what subjective world view you apply to it.

guillimansknight
11-10-2009, 04:31
One personís terrorist is another manís freedom fighter. The real world cannot always be broken down to polar opposite sides where once stands for all things good and wholesome while the other injects HIV into puppies then snaps their necks. Nor is Warfare is something that can be examined or contrasted by morality. It is an ugly thing no matter what subjective world view you apply to it.

Bullocks. Terrorists hide within a collaberating population to hide from attack whereas a freedom fighter would never be so stupid as it would lead to death for his people.


Never confuse terrorists with freedom fighters.

Terrorists are the worst kind of scum. Freedom fighters are those who stand up for their people when their government has abadoned them.

Sunyavadin
11-10-2009, 04:42
Those evil French Terrorists during WW2. Scum, the lot of them.

The Maquis hid behind French civilians, many of whom were killed by the Germans for harbouring them. They also caused quite a degree of civilian "collateral damage" in pursuit of the greater good of defeating the occupying Nazi forces. And let us not forget how they would brutally torture, execute, and butcher captured Nazi prisoners, acts committed as much out of motivations of revenge and to strike fear into their enemies as for other tactical reasons.



It's like saying the Imperium in 40k are good - it's shades of grey. They do UNSPEAKABLE things, often motivated as much by the personal goals of individuals within the Imperium as for the overarching vision of the Emperor. There are evil people, there are good people, they all lay claim to the same ideals. Can you define that ideal as good or bad if equal acts of evil and good are carried out in its name? What about if MORE evil acts are carried out than good, in the name of a good ideal?

ntin
11-10-2009, 04:51
What about the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan during the 1980’s? Their fight against the Soviet invaders became fodder in films like Rambo 3. Or the Tamil Tigers who fought a guerilla war to protect a minority in Sri Lanka? Your argument is still injecting morality back into this with the notion of good and bad guys. Warfare that is fought against uniformed regular forces in the open fields away from the population centers has not happened since World War 1. Irregular armies (id est guerillas) are effective in fighting a regular army of superior training and equipment. It would be suicidal to confront a regular army in a standing war. By your own argument any combatant that fights against another fighting force because their own government has collapsed or neglected them; is the very model of what is popularized as a terrorist.

massey
11-10-2009, 05:06
John Maclaine is the hero from Die Hard. The terrorists he fought blew up buildings so they could steal money. Don't confuse complex real life political problems with a cartoonish wargame. Chaos murders babies so they can summon plague demons. To kill puppies.

The Inevitable One
11-10-2009, 05:24
To me I don't think the Alpha Legion is evil.

When the Cabal contacted the Alpha Legion, they told/showed them two possible outcomes. The first was that if they helped the Emperor, humanity would survive for another 10,000-20,000 years, though ultimately it would crumble and the Chaos Gods would control the Milky Way galaxy. The second choice would be to join Horus and defeat the Imperium. In doing so they would pull Chaos in with them. The Imperium is going to collapse regardless of when it happens, so they might as well bring something down in the process.

People think they are evil now because they have been affected somewhat by the Warp. Other think that regardless of being in the Warp you can still be a loyalist (look at the 13th Great Company). There are also other things that may indicate their loyalty to the Imperium like their battlecry, no dedication to any of the Chaos Gods, and their Legion is based on covert operations. We will never really know if they are good or bad (or at least I won't) until the storyline moves along. Their original motive for turning against the Imperium makes them seem good, but their goals might have changed since then. But who knows they might be passing information onto the Imperium.

The Inevitable One

t-tauri
11-10-2009, 08:43
Spoiler tags added and thread retitled.

will564752
11-10-2009, 11:06
Bullocks. Terrorists hide within a collaberating population to hide from attack whereas a freedom fighter would never be so stupid as it would lead to death for his people.


Never confuse terrorists with freedom fighters.

Terrorists are the worst kind of scum. Freedom fighters are those who stand up for their people when their government has abadoned them.

Yes that is the clean-cut Western View. We view the Taliban and Friends as Terrorists, but many of their followers and indeed a lot of people in the Middle-East would think of them as Freedom Fighters.

The point was that Terrorists to some people are simply Terrorists where as to others they are Freedom Fighters. They often use the same methods and just have a different purpose - It depends which side of the fence your on I suppose.

I mean the French Resistance as an example were Terrorists to the Germans but Freedom Fighters to the West and the Soviets.

The American Rebels were Terrorists to the British back in the Wars of Independence but were Freedom Fighters to a lot of the Americans.. see what im getting at?!


I'm as familiar with Chaos as anyone. They're evil. They've always been cartoon villains. This isn't D&D, with some artificial alignment system that distinguishes between chaos and evil. They sacrifice people to dark gods in exchange for the ability to summon demons of murder. That's evil. End of story.

Well the Chaos Worshippers and Followers (Eg. Traitor Marines) could quite easily be described as 'evil' (even when its such an relative term anyway!) But Chaos itself and the Chaos Gods are elemental forces, and calling them evil is like calling a Storm, Earthquake or a Tsunami evil.

Malice313
11-10-2009, 11:15
I'm sorry, I'm gonna call bull on this.

I've read the old stuff. I've read the Rogue Trader books. I'm as familiar with Chaos as anyone. They're evil. They've always been cartoon villains. This isn't D&D, with some artificial alignment system that distinguishes between chaos and evil. They sacrifice people to dark gods in exchange for the ability to summon demons of murder. That's evil. End of story.

I take your point, but the concepts of "Evil" are largely subjective from the view point of the onlooker.

A shark or a crocodiles efficient capacity of killing does not necessarily make it evil. Intentionally feeding a helpless victim to a shark or a crocodile purely for personal titillation probably is.

I'm going to have to "call bull", as you put it, on the No alignment system. All Warhammer stuff, particularly at the time in question, was based on WFB which had a clearly defined alignment system that clearly defined between Evil and Chaotic.

The tables that detail the characteristics of the five various Warhammer alignments on pages 89-90 of WFRP end with "...A chaotic character can veer wildly between extremes of behaviour, even appearing Lawful or Good for a while."

RoC StD even has special effects for creature of certain alignments under the "Deathdealer", "Fear" and "Hate" Chaos Weapon entries as do the "Irrational Fear" and "Irrational Hatred" Chaos Attributes.

Murphy's law
11-10-2009, 11:20
Alpha Legion are obviously evil.

abasio
11-10-2009, 13:12
If the Alpha Legion is loyal to the Emperor then they are undoubtedly evil! They are loyal to a vicious dictator who wanted to eradicate every other race in the galaxy and even in the immaterial realm. This intended genocide must surely be considered evil. If an alien race had had the same vision we'd call it evil. It's just as humans ourselves we see the Emperor as the protagonist, the freedom fighter as you will but he's a tyrant and a terrorist in many of the galaxy's eyes.

Gaargod
11-10-2009, 13:49
Its generally an accepted point that there is no 'good' race in the galaxy. The humans exist in a tyrannical empire built to feed a war machine to exterminate all other races and put themselves forward as the master race.

The Tau, often seen as the good guys with the Greater Good, are still pretty evil. They arrive on a planet, tel the inhabitants 'join us'. If they accept, the inhabitants are treated as 2nd class citizens at best, if they refuse they are destroyed. The Eldar are only interested in themselves and will happily wipe out other races if they could survive.

Chaos fluctuates wildly - it can have no final aim or ambition, or it would cease to exist. It can of course have general aims and plans, often very specific, but these tend to go in circles. Its servants can, and can therefore be good or evil - but they are not necessarily either.

Glabro
11-10-2009, 15:16
Here we go again...this seems to pop up regularly every few months or so.

People seem to think that what was written before is always valid. It's possible the writers before Legion simply thought of AL as just another Chaos Legion. Then again, maybe not.

Whatever AL is, it's complicated. It might have splintered. One or both primarchs are alive by all accounts.

What I think, however, that the Legionnaires that follow Omegon (it was Omegon that saw the Cabal's vision, right? Or was it Alpharius?), at the very least, keep maintaining and managing the flaws of humanity. That was their philosophy, and they made sure Grammaticus understood it. So, in the guise of the enemy, they intend to stave off the end as long as they can - unless a miracle like the Emperor being deified upon his death happens. They do it by seeking out havens of corruption and Chaos, and fan it to flames, causing the cults to rise up and eventually burn themselves out in warfare. If by doing so corrupt officials like Governors can be removed, all the better. In the end, the worlds are left scarred but (relatively) clean of corruption, like after a fever that ends a disease. They themselves don't deal with demons, but the cults do.

Other groups might be corrupted or pursuing other objectives - but then again, in the end they might all be part of a bigger scheme by the primarch(s).

That's my take on it.

Now, is there evidence of worlds being lost to AL operations?

guillimansknight
11-10-2009, 15:50
I cannot believe people are trying to justify terrorism.

Bear that in mind if you ever get affected by it.

will564752
11-10-2009, 16:36
I cannot believe people are trying to justify terrorism.

Bear that in mind if you ever get affected by it.

Dont be silly - No one was trying to justify Terrorism - Merely saying that one man's Terrorist is anothers Freedom Fighter. You don't get that saying?

guillimansknight
11-10-2009, 16:57
Dont be silly - No one was trying to justify Terrorism - Merely saying that one man's Terrorist is anothers Freedom Fighter. You don't get that saying?

if you hide in a population. If you blow up small children. If you murder people when it does not further your cause thenyou are a terrorist. And deserve a lifetime of torture.

What freedom have you seen won with the blood of children?

The Guy
11-10-2009, 17:09
if you hide in a population. If you blow up small children. If you murder people when it does not further your cause thenyou are a terrorist. And deserve a lifetime of torture.

What freedom have you seen won with the blood of children?

I know some children I wouldn't mind 'removing'...

Y'inglye
11-10-2009, 17:09
We still have "Loyalists or Traitors" poll going on the Alpha Legion forum. Right, Eetion? :D
So far, "traitors" win.

Eetion
11-10-2009, 17:23
Yeah, if you want to continue the AL discussion follow my sig link to see what fellow AL Commanders believe... and even thats not straight forward.

But as for the Terrorist/ Freedom Fighter discussion.
Without a degree of sympathy for the terrorist within some community some where in the world then there can be no terrorist. People dont bomb and murder for no reason. No matter how deplorable the act may be there are others who support the actions, maybe its hate, maybe its the only means of resistance at hand? the motivation doesnt matter but someone somewhere supports it.
I believe will564752 wasnt condoning terrorism, but trying to point out that all terror groups must have some kind of support for them to operate and survive.

will564752
11-10-2009, 17:38
if you hide in a population. If you blow up small children. If you murder people when it does not further your cause thenyou are a terrorist. And deserve a lifetime of torture.

What freedom have you seen won with the blood of children?

You don't get it.. Nevermind :)

DuskRaider
11-10-2009, 17:57
Never confuse terrorists with freedom fighters.

Terrorists are the worst kind of scum. Freedom fighters are those who stand up for their people when their government has abadoned them.

Eh... Not entirely true. People here in the US celebrate our Continental Militia's defeat of the British Military every July 4th, and in all truthfulness you could look at the rebellion as a terrorist campaign. The tactics used and such would point to that. In fact, there are still people to this day (whackos, mind you) that believe that George Washington was a terrorist.

For that matter, most major governments can be accused of terrorism throughout history. England, United States, Russia, Germany, France, Japan, China, etc. etc... The list goes on. Surely you don't view these establishments as terrorist cells, do you?

You need to see it from the other side. Someone forcibly enters your country, takes your land, uproots your people, holds guns to your face, and says, "This is our land now. You listen to us or we'll kill you.", you'd either fight back directly or at least support those who are. No such thing as black and white, except in fables and fairy tales.

Back to the topic at hand... I truly believe the Alpha Legion never really did see themselves as Loyalists in the first place, more opportunists. Alpharius-Omegon only had the chance to meet the Emperor face to face once or twice. In the end, I think their motivations had more to do with preservation, both of self and of their race.

Did they make the right decision? Who knows, at this point. We're teetering at the end of that prophecy that may have helped them make their choice, and we'll soon see if that was the correct one. I'd think at this point in the game, there are some operatives that have truly gone over the edge, as in the case of Arkos the Faithless. For the most part, however, Alpha Legion refuses to dabble in the use of Chaos. As far as we know.

I believe Abnett said eventually we'd see a sequal to Legion. I certainly hope so, I've always found the "Undivided" Traitor Legions quite interesting (barring Word Bearers... I hate them).

will564752
11-10-2009, 18:34
Well said DuskRaider :D

Sunyavadin
11-10-2009, 22:29
What freedom have you seen won with the blood of children?

http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-children.html

randian
11-10-2009, 23:58
Also aside from the Alpha Legion, we don't know the true nature of the Cabal, and whether or not they are actually enemies of Chaos. For all we know they could easily have been agents of Chaos.
I think it more likely they were dupes of Chaos. Prescience is a psychic ability, and as such is susceptible to corruption by warp entities. The Cabal were too arrogant to realize that their visions could have been tainted by the Chaos gods, most likely Tzeentch, or one of their most powerful daemons.

Sunyavadin
12-10-2009, 00:24
Undoubtedly an option.

Vesica
12-10-2009, 02:08
I'm sorry, I'm gonna call bull on this.

I've read the old stuff. I've read the Rogue Trader books. I'm as familiar with Chaos as anyone. They're evil. They've always been cartoon villains. This isn't D&D, with some artificial alignment system that distinguishes between chaos and evil. They sacrifice people to dark gods in exchange for the ability to summon demons of murder. That's evil. End of story.

/thread


That's like saying all soldiers are evil. They kill people for a living.

Different.

Soldiers kill other soldiers and try not to kill the innocent, chaos involves murdering all those around you so their souls can be eaten by daemons.

Read 'Dark Apostle' and you will realise the difference.

Vesica
12-10-2009, 02:11
Terrorist kill innocents without caring and fight to control and control people.

Freedom fighters attack military targets and fight to liberate their people.

Y'inglye
12-10-2009, 02:27
Yeah, if you want to continue the AL discussion follow my sig link to see what fellow AL Commanders believe...

I am very much a member on that forum. :rolleyes: I don't like to recycle names so I have a different one for every forum I am a member of.

Mannimarco
12-10-2009, 02:30
can we please get this off terrorist vs freedom fighters, pretty sure sombody is going to say somthing potentially inflamatory, sombody will take great offence to it and there will be a lot of hurt feelings

an example if i may? we have the current war in afghanistan, to some the taliban are freedom fighters fighting against the evil invaders, to others they are terrorists, it all depends on your perspective

in closing, and going back on topic: alpha legion = evil

Sunyavadin
12-10-2009, 03:35
Soldiers kill other soldiers and try not to kill the innocent, chaos involves murdering all those around you so their souls can be eaten by daemons.


I would have to disagree...
Sure you *can* do that, and it's certainly an effective means of petitioning for the chaos powers' attention. But it's not the only way to. Look at the Sons of Malice. A chapter as dedicated to wiping out the other chaos forces as the Grey Knights. Their actions are noble ones, for selfish ends - just as the feeding of thousands of innocents' souls to the Emperor each day, fuelling the birth of what is indisputably the same kind of greater warp entity as the other chaos powers, is an utterly evil act, but with the noblest of intent.

But these are BOTH extremes. The Chaos cults who do go to these extremes, are paralleled by the Redemption, in their fanatical, homicidal zeal... It does not mean that is all there is to venerating a given deity. How many modern day Christians and Jews argue in favour of slavery? It's specifically outlined and mandated in great detail in their holy books. This does not make it something every devoted believer goes out and does.

Paraelix
12-10-2009, 03:50
they fought (and defeated) the ultramarines immediately after the heresy (yeah they may have maybe lost their primarch but the did force the ultras to retreat)


I fail to see how wailing on Ultramarines is Evil. The Smurfs got it coming.

Icarus
12-10-2009, 04:25
What I think, however, that the Legionnaires that follow Omegon (it was Omegon that saw the Cabal's vision, right? Or was it Alpharius?), at the very least, keep maintaining and managing the flaws of humanity. That was their philosophy, and they made sure Grammaticus understood it. So, in the guise of the enemy, they intend to stave off the end as long as they can - unless a miracle like the Emperor being deified upon his death happens. They do it by seeking out havens of corruption and Chaos, and fan it to flames, causing the cults to rise up and eventually burn themselves out in warfare. If by doing so corrupt officials like Governors can be removed, all the better. In the end, the worlds are left scarred but (relatively) clean of corruption, like after a fever that ends a disease. They themselves don't deal with demons, but the cults do.

Other groups might be corrupted or pursuing other objectives - but then again, in the end they might all be part of a bigger scheme by the primarch(s).

That's my take on it.

I very much like this as a description of Alpha Legion philosophy, where they seek to strengthen and prop up the Imperium by putting through rigorous, but controlled, trials of fire. It reminds me of a more humanitarian version of the Shadow's philosophy in Babylon 5. I also like it because it makes them an interestingly neutral faction in the usually clearcut Imperium versus Chaos power struggle. Yet that neutrality has a slightly heroic, if morally questionable, quality to it, seeking to preserve and protect humanity. After all, isn't that what the Space Marines were created to do in the first place?

hummus
12-10-2009, 05:17
i see alpha as similar to the relictors(maybe a darker cousin) they both use chaos for the emperor

will564752
12-10-2009, 10:27
I've just re-read Chapter 7 of 'Legion' - and it certainly throws a shadow of a doubt on the Alpha Legion's view of the Great Crusade. They thought the Emperor was chasing impossible utopian ideals, however its also noted that they wouldn't have turned from him even though they thought his goal was simply unattainable.

I think its obvious that the Alpha Legion wished to preserve their own species. This makes the implication that they 'joined the Heresy to save the galaxy' even more out of place so to speak. To me its also obvious that Alpharius Omegon played a Major Role in the Heresy, not only because of the facts that they had 2 years to prepare, Alpharius' nature and indeed the nature of the Alpha Legion's tactics (as seen in my original post below) - But also because of the Cabal's prophecy when they say (along the lines of) "We have concluded that the First and Last Legions are the most Important, Horus Lupercal for what he will do, and Alpharius Omegon for what he will undo..."

As to what this major behind-the-scenes role was, its open to speculation. Some have speculated that it was actually the Alpha Legion who lowered the shields on Horus' Battle-Barge (especially as its currently not clear-cut who actually lowered the shields and for what reason - we have loads of different sources which give different reasons). Whilst others have speculated that they influenced the events in the heresy to their ends, some have even gone as far as to speculate that it was the Alpha Legion who ordered the Assassination of the Night Haunter, (as for that theory I can't for the life of me remember what the reason for this was - but I remember it being an interesting one!)

But as for them being 'evil' - Hopefully we'll find out in the sequel to Legion which Mr McNeill has informed me is very likely to be written.

My Original Post portrays the rest of my views:


We don't know for certain how Alpharius Omegon acted in response to the meeting with the Cabal. There is only implications.

What we do know on the other hand is that Alpharius Omegon had 2 years to prepare for the Heresy, and that Alpharius' character dictated that he wished to be in control of a given situation as much as possible. Aswell as Omegon noting (along the lines of) "Secrey is, as always our greatest weapon". All this combined, leads me to believe that the Alpha Legion played a major behind-the-scenes role throughout the Heresy, and simply didn't just attempt to delay the Space Wolves and White Scars as we were previously told.

Also aside from the Alpha Legion, we don't know the true nature of the Cabal, and whether or not they are actually enemies of Chaos. For all we know they could easily have been agents of Chaos.

stormboy
12-10-2009, 13:12
What I think the book Legion did is to throw the Alpha Legion into the spotlight and give some definition to a Legion that had only been known as "sneaky." Personally, I love what the book did to the background simply because it can effect the tabletop through creative army building. The Alpha Legion could have split into many small facets and we know that they can operate independently as cells. So now people can justify loads of different Alpha Legion armies on the tabletop. I think the folks at GW saw that too - just as they knew some people would track down all the correct armor variants and build pre-heresy armies as a result of the Horus Heresy books. Good Books sell minis and really that is what I think this is all about.

Idaan
12-10-2009, 14:46
The Cabal was extremely short-sighted. Created to fight Chaos at least a million years before the rise of humanity and living only 300 years after the Eldar created a Chaos god, they thought that humanity was the only race that fed Chaos and with all humans dead Chaos would be extinguished too. What would happen is a few hundred years of relative peace in the galaxy and after that one of the previously minor races would launch another Great Crusade and become the dominant force in the galaxy, creating new aspects of the Chaos gods and starting the cycle anew.
So we have two possibilities:
a) the Cabal was tricked by Tzeentch into believing Horus' victory was the only salvation for the galaxy and that humans were the only food for Chaos, despite the very existence of Cabal proved otherwise.
b) the Cabal is another cardboard cut-out Xenos faction with no real depth or logic, created only to act as background for the protagonists muscle-flexing (or in this case intellect-flexing).

Harbinger
12-10-2009, 16:53
Despite what was written about the Cabal, to my knowledge, other aspects of the Legion have not been retconned.

In the 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 Codecies, the Alpha Legion has been stated as fighting other Legions beofre the Heresy to prove their worth and that they are at least equals if not betters. They are also stated to have despised weakness.

While they did follow their own agenda during the Heresy, they still fought against loyalists and applied their specialty of terrorism and sabotage against the Imperium. Examples of these acts, albeit post-Heresy, are given in the Index Astartes article. One is the Daelryuth Plague, which caused massive amounts of starvation and famine.

The Cabal may have been an extra push invented in the HH novels, much like the addition of the sneaky advisors corrupting Primarchs, because a picture of an uncorruptable Primach was desired. And, as I said, the cabal really doesn't excuse the previous infighting and sense and hatred of weakness.

ryng_sting
12-10-2009, 17:34
" Some have speculated that it was actually the Alpha Legion who lowered the shields on Horus' Battle-Barge (especially as its currently not clear-cut who actually lowered the shields and for what reason - we have loads of different sources which give different reasons). "

New one on me. Erebus passes on the news that reinforcments are arriving, Horus orders his shields dropped. Clear cut.

Malice313
12-10-2009, 22:31
Some have speculated that it was actually the Alpha Legion who lowered the shields on Horus' Battle-Barge (especially as its currently not clear-cut who actually lowered the shields and for what reason - we have loads of different sources which give different reasons).

RoC LatD places the order to lower the shields directly on Horus (page 179). Its only lightly vague in its reason too.

Icarus
13-10-2009, 04:54
Whilst some sources are specific about what happened with the shields, more recent versions of the story seem to emphasise a less certain version which guesses at whta happened but cannot be sure. Its suggested that Horus may have done it intentionally as a gambit, or in order to psychically witness the Emperor's demise, however its very much narrated in an uncertain manner. In these versions of the story there is room for the idea that the Alpha Legion could be involved, and I for one find it a cool idea.

Eetion
13-10-2009, 06:46
I think i might have mooted that idea. But it was an during a discussion as to the ALs possible actions in order to have there cake and eat it. To have the Emperor survive and Chaos to be defeated in order to ensure continued progression of the human species, given what they know about the Cabal.
But it was entirely a speculation.

will564752
14-10-2009, 01:09
Whilst some sources are specific about what happened with the shields, more recent versions of the story seem to emphasise a less certain version which guesses at whta happened but cannot be sure. Its suggested that Horus may have done it intentionally as a gambit, or in order to psychically witness the Emperor's demise, however its very much narrated in an uncertain manner. In these versions of the story there is room for the idea that the Alpha Legion could be involved, and I for one find it a cool idea.

Exactly my point :)

Obviously it is just speculation but I too find the theory of the Alpha Legion's involvement interesting to say the least!