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View Full Version : WOTR- Overpowered duels? and Solutions?



elf_hater_7
10-10-2009, 22:02
One thing I've noticed while reading the WOTR book is just how good duels are for assassinating certain characters, especially if people play rules where Fight modifiers don't take effect in duels. An example to illustrate this:
Gandalf (Fight 4) and a formation of Minas Tirith warriors are engaged by a formation of Easterlings, including a Dragon Knight (Fight 7). Ordinarily, the Easterlings will have to chew through the entire formation of Warriors to get to Gandalf, which may take several turns (assuming both formations are at roughly equal strength), but thanks to the duelling ability, the the Dragon Knight can leap out and challenge Gandalf directly, and stands a decent chance of killing him, making his own points back several times over in the process. As there is no option to refuse a challenge, Gandalf has no way of escaping this.

Now, the way I see it, there are three ways to remedy this (although I'm open to any other suggestions):
a) Allow Heroes the option of refusing to duel, for a certain penalty.
b) Remove the ability to pick out a specific hero. To continue the above example, allow the Good player to have a generic captain or higher Fight hero engage the Dragon Knight.
c) Introduce models that act as specific "bodyguards" for other Heroes in the formation, in a similar fashion to the Bodyguards in some Legendary Formations (such as Beregond, Damrod etc.), except allow them to protect any other Hero in the formation rather than the specific ones in the current rules.

As I've said, I'm open to any suggestions and/or expansions, and...I've never been sure on how to end these things properly...

Reinholt
10-10-2009, 23:04
For Epic Heroes, my solution is usually to move them to a formation that is not going to get charged that turn.

It's pretty easy to keep them out of combat unless the entirety of your force is under siege, and even then, a Dragon Knight having to chew through R3 is not a sure thing (especially when he only has one point of might to spend on the duel).

A lot of the trick is positioning your epic heroes well, especially casters, as if casters were not vulnerable to duels, they'd have to be a lot more points to balance out how good their magic is. Unduelable Gandalf would be worth at least 400 points.

Johnny189
11-10-2009, 13:02
Just keep all your vunerable heroes in your second line of formations, or do what I do and take gandalf and galadriel and keep councelling each other, you will soon have enough might to win any duel, I've even had gandalf kill a balrog in full strength by winning a single duel and using up 10 points of might.

Sedge
12-10-2009, 11:08
Just keep all your vunerable heroes in your second line of formations, or do what I do and take gandalf and galadriel and keep councelling each other, you will soon have enough might to win any duel, I've even had gandalf kill a balrog in full strength by winning a single duel and using up 10 points of might.

I thought that you can only modify a dice roll, using might, to a max of 6. Therfore max might used would be 5.

Johnny189
12-10-2009, 17:43
I some cases, duels included, you can go above 6.

Spiney Norman
14-10-2009, 00:07
The problem with the duels system stems from the Fight value, and the hundred and one ways there are to mess with it.

Actually the duels system works pretty well if you adopt a fairly simple house rule, All heroic duels use the UNMODIFIED fight value of the combatants.

As the rules stand any hero which does not have epic strike is shafted in a duel, and the Fortune "Inner Glory" is way too overpowered as both can effectively guarantee you victory in a duel.

Master Toddius
14-10-2009, 16:27
I play misty mountains and duels get my heros killed very quickly. Which is why I have certain things to counter this.
1. I have a balrog or dragon and sometimes the cave drake (if he works correctly that turn) to offset the chance of my infantry gobo heros from getting smashed by higher fight value heros. Its a tactic that I must come to terms with, other than just smashing things around I need to think about saber dancing around on the battlefield while protecting my important assets.
2. I also like to even the fight value between my low fight gobo's and enyone else by taking Shades. "Hi, I'm Gil-Gilad and I want to put my foot up the **** of your beast caller, Druzhag, before he summons anymore of those damn giant spiders. I have a fight value of ****** 10 and you have a fight value of 4." -Gil`galad
"Oh wait, nope sorry you have a fight value of 2 and well as druzhag so have at it and good luck." -Shade
3. "Hi I'm Mr. Balrog and I have a fight value of 10 and I challenge YOU mr. Gil`gilad." "Okay, fine mr. balrog I have a fight of 10 as well." "Oh wait, Nope, Gil'gilad has a fight value of 2 because hes in range of me, mr. shade, and mr. balrog is in the open. Good luck gentleman and may the best demon win..."

Johnny189
14-10-2009, 18:13
Annyone who lets gil-galad get into that situation is going to lose anyway.

bufordbugman
15-10-2009, 04:03
For Epic Heroes, my solution is usually to move them to a formation that is not going to get charged that turn.

It's pretty easy to keep them out of combat unless the entirety of your force is under siege, and even then, a Dragon Knight having to chew through R3 is not a sure thing (especially when he only has one point of might to spend on the duel).

A lot of the trick is positioning your epic heroes well, especially casters, as if casters were not vulnerable to duels, they'd have to be a lot more points to balance out how good their magic is. Unduelable Gandalf would be worth at least 400 points.

I think Reinholt has it right here. Dueling is indeed powerful, but, especially when you disallow Epic Strike and such things from modifying Fight in duels (as we do in our group), it's not so crazy. Just keep your vulnerable spell casters away from units that will get charged. Will this hamper them somewhat in maximizing their spell casting? It should - spell casters are incredibly good for their points in WOTR! Being killable in duels and thus having to be careful where they go is the price you pay.

I don't really see the need for any of the OP's suggestions for changes.