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Paraelix
11-10-2009, 08:13
Just trying to clarify...

A character in a unit with the Banner of Rage can declare a charge, but the unit is somehow blocked by interposing models. Does the character charge (affected by frenzy) even though the act of chargin would remove frenzy from him?

Nurgling Chieftain
11-10-2009, 08:24
I would assume so - he doesn't lose the frenzy until he actually leaves the unit.

Paraelix
11-10-2009, 08:29
That was my understanding... But there are so many WoC players at my local, and most are new to fantasy... So I thought I'd get my head around all the possible troubles they'll be having.

nosferatu1001
11-10-2009, 13:09
You are subject to the units psychology until after you have declared the charge, so yes you are forced to charge out.

jaxom
11-10-2009, 22:38
In the same way that you can still be standing in the unit when subject to Stand-and-Shoot, you are still in the unit when the declare charges portion comes around and thus you must declare if you are frenzied.

Note the very nasty trick that comes of this... Put a unit in LoS at an angle at the extreme end of their charge range. The unit cannot wheel and still reach you. The character, however, wheels for free. Whoops, is he in range while the unit is not? So sorry...

nzdarkelf
13-10-2009, 05:13
I can't be bothered opening my rule book to check this but wouldn't the prudent thing to do in this case be to just declare a charge with the whole unit, rather than waiting to see if frenzy is going to force one? Sure the charge will fail, but at this stage the character would be protected by the rule(s) that forces characters to stay with their unit.

Adran
13-10-2009, 08:45
If the whole unit is subject to frenzy, then they can't declare a charge unless they are in reach, so it is possible to force the character alone to charge. But it does require some very good range judgement.

jaxom
13-10-2009, 21:45
@nzdarkelf --

There has been discussion about this elsewhere (sorry, have not tracked down the link) and the upshot is that you cannot declare a failed charge with frenzied units. Some go so far as to say that they cannot declare during normal declaration so they cannot, for example, time their charge with other units...

Regardless, since they cannot declare a failed charge, they cannot protect the character that way... If the unit is not in range because of the wheel but the character is in range he's gonna pop right out.

Takes very good range judgement *and* enough awareness to make sure you do not offer any other targets because they could, of course, declare a different legal charge...

nzdarkelf
13-10-2009, 23:57
Yea thats all fair enuf. Was pretty shot yesterday - 2 flights and about 6 hours waiting around in airports. Looked at the BRB tody. Was interested to note that frenzied units deal with their charges after non-frenzied units have declared theres. Another little change from 6th ed that sliped under my radar (the one big thing I value Warseer for is discovering all these little changes), so I guess Frenzied troops don't even bothr to declare charges anymore, just measure and see.
Stll I think the above scenario of baiting a character out of a unit with the Banner of Rage is fairly unlikely. Especially as the WoC player won't actually reveal the banner till he actually needs to. Requires a bit of honesty on his part, especially if the circumstances are disadvantageous. Bit like having your opponent claim ASF from the Helm of Many Eyes, without rolling for supidity on the previous turns. "Gee I forgot about that! I'll roll now. A Seven, no worries he passed, now I've got ASF so..."

nosferatu1001
14-10-2009, 00:08
The WoC player has to reveal the banner at the first turn, as the unit must measure charges to see if they are in range, even on the first turn. AS such the banenr is used.

If someone was that dishonest as to not even mention the banner at the start (as it is instantly used and so must be revealed) then there's bigger problems around :D

Paraelix
14-10-2009, 01:35
The WoC player has to reveal the banner at the first turn, as the unit must measure charges to see if they are in range, even on the first turn. AS such the banenr is used.

If someone was that dishonest as to not even mention the banner at the start (as it is instantly used and so must be revealed) then there's bigger problems around :D

You don't measure unless there is the possiblity of being in range... If I am clearly 40" away and I have frenzied foot troops, I am not measuring an 8" bubble around my troops.

Warp-Juicer
14-10-2009, 02:51
This seems like a Win at All Costs tactic. If I find someone suddenly saying "No, you have to charge with just that guy. See? He can reach while his unit cant!" I'd probably pick my models up and not play that person again.

Nurgling Chieftain
14-10-2009, 03:32
In practice, it's usually much more of an issue when you have a frenzied mounted character in a foot unit.

Warp-Juicer
14-10-2009, 03:35
In practice, it's usually much more of an issue when you have a frenzied mounted character in a foot unit.

this is true, usually it doesn't happen this way though....well, atleast not in any list I've seen played.

Its for this reason that I bet Valkyia the Bloody isn't frenzied.

jaxom
14-10-2009, 04:36
This seems like a Win at All Costs tactic. If I find someone suddenly saying "No, you have to charge with just that guy. See? He can reach while his unit cant!" I'd probably pick my models up and not play that person again.

o.0

Knowledge of the rules and using them to your advantage is Win at All Costs?

When your frenzied units are baited all over the board do you complain? I doubt it. The rules are clear and you know the risks of a frenzied unit. Why is this different?

And for the record, I actually play WoC and run a Nurgle theme army including a unit of Knights with the Banner. Three guesses how I learned this rule and the first two don't count. I certainly didn't scoop when I learned the error of my ways and to be honest if you scooped because you didn't know the rules and were upset that I did I would not be terribly upset by the threat to never play me again.

Warp-Juicer
14-10-2009, 04:45
o.0

Knowledge of the rules and using them to your advantage is Win at All Costs?

When your frenzied units are baited all over the board do you complain? I doubt it. The rules are clear and you know the risks of a frenzied unit. Why is this different?

And for the record, I actually play WoC and run a Nurgle theme army including a unit of Knights with the Banner. Three guesses how I learned this rule and the first two don't count. I certainly didn't scoop when I learned the error of my ways and to be honest if you scooped because you didn't know the rules and were upset that I did I would not be terribly upset by the threat to never play me again.

Um, abusing the rules to draw a single important model out of a unit is Win at all costs. If someone goes out of their way just do do that, than its not exactly playing the game to have fun.

xragg
14-10-2009, 05:17
Probally about two years ago, I had a frenzied priest in a unit of frenzied monks. My opponent moved some skinks towards their right flank in a fenced off field we were playing as rough terrain. The monks could not wheel and still complete the charge due to the rough terrain, but my hero could since he isnt hampered by rough terrain when alone. It wasnt my opponents intention, but he forced my hero to charge out into the open. It was my mistake, but I learned from it. I dont feel its a WAAC tactic. Its just one of the drawbacks of frenzy.

Zeuy
14-10-2009, 05:31
@nzdarkelf --

There has been discussion about this elsewhere (sorry, have not tracked down the link) and the upshot is that you cannot declare a failed charge with frenzied units. Some go so far as to say that they cannot declare during normal declaration so they cannot, for example, time their charge with other units...

Regardless, since they cannot declare a failed charge, they cannot protect the character that way... If the unit is not in range because of the wheel but the character is in range he's gonna pop right out.


It's covered in the BRB FAQs. Frenzied units CAN have failed charges. Also, they must declare their charges AFTER all non-frenzied units have, but they still move at the SAME time, during the mover chargers phase.

nosferatu1001
14-10-2009, 10:09
You don't measure unless there is the possiblity of being in range... If I am clearly 40" away and I have frenzied foot troops, I am not measuring an 8" bubble around my troops.

Erm, no, you are incorrect there:


In the declare charges phase.....measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any frenzied troops

There is no allowance to not measure. However most people will simply declare that those troops are frenzied and eyeball that measuring isnt needed.

All I'm pointing out is that you must declare the banner immediately as you are compelled to measure from turn 1 - you cant use not measuring as an excuse to not mention your frenzied troops.

EvC
14-10-2009, 11:58
Actually most players won't bother to declare it, even though they should. I've faced enough Chaos players at tournaments in the last year to know what the "usual" reaction is, even if it's kinda not by the rules. I can live with it though.

nosferatu1001
14-10-2009, 14:33
I guess I've played nicer WoC players than you EvC ;)

If it's that common then state that, if the knights of Nurgle with full command do have the banner that you expect measurement every turn or the banner will have no effect in close combat.

Fight idiots with idiocy ;)

jaxom
14-10-2009, 17:22
It's covered in the BRB FAQs. Frenzied units CAN have failed charges. Also, they must declare their charges AFTER all non-frenzied units have, but they still move at the SAME time, during the mover chargers phase.

Aside from a screening unit which might fail a charge or fear test or a rallying unit which might continue to flee into the line of a declared Frenzied charge, there are no allowances in either BRB FAQ that I can see for a failed charge. In fact, the first BRB FAQ is quite explicit about charging that declaring a charge which you know to be out of charge reach is cheating. As I said, this has been debated here ad nauseum and the upshot is that because of the rules for Frenzied chargers, you may not even be able to declare a charge against a unit that might wind up in charge reach because of other things on the table. Please, point out the rule in the FAQ that you think changes that.

Regarding the resolution of charges, they are resolved in the order declared so in the odd case where you have a non-Frenzied unit behind a Frenzied one, the non-Frenzied unit cannot declare a contingent charge because they Frenzied charge cannot be declared out of order.

Again, if you have FAQs that contradict these, please identify the exact rule you are thinking of (page of the FAQ and location on the page or quote them here since they are public domain?).

jaxom
14-10-2009, 17:27
Um, abusing the rules to draw a single important model out of a unit is Win at all costs. If someone goes out of their way just do do that, than its not exactly playing the game to have fun.

The distinction between using and abusing is a very fine one. Is it abusing the rules to kite the unit around a table using fast cav? Or to charge and avoid basing a champion in order to stick the character in the unit with a challenge?

If you're the person who made the mistake in deploying your troops that made it possible, then I agree it is no fun, but that doesn't make it abuse of the rule. Heck, the line is going to be defined by the group playing to suit their tastes. In the groups I play with we expect you to know and abide by all the rules and since this is a clear rule we use it. If your group house-rules this more power to you but it's unreasonable to hold the rest of the gaming community to your house rules.

Zeuy
15-10-2009, 04:18
Aside from a screening unit which might fail a charge or fear test or a rallying unit which might continue to flee into the line of a declared Frenzied charge, there are no allowances in either BRB FAQ that I can see for a failed charge. In fact, the first BRB FAQ is quite explicit about charging that declaring a charge which you know to be out of charge reach is cheating. As I said, this has been debated here ad nauseum and the upshot is that because of the rules for Frenzied chargers, you may not even be able to declare a charge against a unit that might wind up in charge reach because of other things on the table. Please, point out the rule in the FAQ that you think changes that.

You yourself mentioned the very FAQ (BRB Part 2 page 2) that mentions the possibility of frenzied units failing charges to which I was referring. ;) You claimed frenzied units couldn't fail charges, so I pointed out you were mistaken. There are instances where a player judges he can make it, but another unit gets in the way unexpectedly.

My movement comment was directed towards your comment that frenzied charges cannot be timed with regular charges. I was merely pointing out that they are moved as regular in the move chargers phase despite having to wait to declare charges after all non-frenzied units (BRB FAQ Part 1 Page 3: Psychology). For example, a regular unit and a frenzied unit charging an enemy unit will charge simultaneously. However, as you said, if those two units were charging separate targets, then the frenzied unit would move second, as per regular charge movement, because it declared a charge after the first unit. :)

Lord Dan
15-10-2009, 05:23
you cant use not measuring as an excuse to not mention your frenzied troops.

Everyone knows anything with frenzy in a WoC army has to be painted red, coated with gore, and modeled to be lunging at a 45 degree angle. They should be easy to spot. :p

nosferatu1001
15-10-2009, 06:53
Red green nurgle....mmm lovely paint scheme :D

EvC
15-10-2009, 11:54
And the Chariots should have a Moonwalking Michael Jackson on top.

nosferatu1001
15-10-2009, 13:22
and the Warshrines?

don't even ask about the WarShrines....